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Posted: 9/25/2003 10:21:42 AM EDT
Well, I see the old thread is buried and I appreciate that BrobeeBiter can't advertise BUT I wanted to share that I received notice that these adapters are selling! My money is in and I hope to get mine on my own 870 for a review soon!

Here is the locked thread... www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=168809&page=1

Here is the website with more info.. www.argonautarmament.com
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:28:54 AM EDT
Would you be so kind as to let us know what the recoil is like on your shoulder with the M4 stock on it?

I really like the look of his stock and full length rail on his site, but just wonder "how rough" that M4 stock is gonna be......

Thanks,
Mike
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:32:55 PM EDT
Just recieved notifition myself and will be ordering one.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 6:08:45 AM EDT
I have a similar adaptor with a collapsible AR15 stock on one of my guns and I have found it to be quite comfortable. We have been transitioning to the H&K style stance which is like an iscoceles stance with a shotgun and the collapsible stock has been great.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 6:16:42 AM EDT
Well, I got the adapter earlier this week and I have what must be serial number 008. The adapter is extremely ruged and it bolts onto the 870 shotgun with ease. The AR-15 pistol grip and a new RRA 6-position CAR stock also bolted on with absolute ease....

Now, I was a little disapointed as the angle of the stock when attached to this adapter is way too high to use this stock with factory sights or rib. I need some more time to evaluate the situation, but it seems to me that one of the full length rails with AR-15 picatiny mounted AR-15 sights may give you the proper elevation off the top of the receiver and barrel to allow you to actually use your sights.

Personally, I think I would have prefered to have had different stock ange that closer matched the factory 870 stock but this preliminary review is too preliminary to say this will not work. I need to evaluate my options and consider getting the full length rail and try that route after I take some additional measurements to see if this will fix my sighting concerns.

Regardsless, this is one hell of a rugged adapter and the pistol grip, safety, and trigger have a very good feel. The 6-position CAR stock provides for a comfortable LOP, and the unit looks great mounted on my 870 Express.

Did anybody else buy one of these?

Oh yea, I will post pics when I get a chance...
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 8:19:38 AM EDT
Yeah, please get us some pics, Quarterbore.

I must say, I'm not surpirsed by the comment of not being able to use the original sights, I figured that. But, the new stock angle I would think should improve controllability of the recoil greatly. So I guess it would be a trade off. Personally, I like the full length rail idea, as long as it doesn't add to much weight. I'm not sure how much a rail like that would weigh though.

I haven't gotten the adapter yet, cause I'm waiting a little while to see if he comes up with one for the FN/1300. If nothing is done soon, I will be switching to an 870 just for this adapter and rail.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 10:49:46 PM EDT
Has anyone thought of putting a recoil reducing mercury tube inside the CAR stock tube?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 6:30:49 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 5:48:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 5:53:43 PM EDT by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By TMIX:
Has anyone thought of putting a recoil reducing mercury tube inside the CAR stock tube?



Yea, that that occured to me as did just taking something heavy with buffer spring on each side. It would do the same thing...

I swapped E-mails with argonautarmament.com and I was told that the side saddle scope mounts will give me the elevation I need when I use this with a red-dot scope. I need to look around for a unit and I think I will try this first. I also confirmed that the extended rail with back up rear and flip up rail mounted front AR-15 sights produces proper eye relief. They expect to be making some more rails at some point so if the weaver mount doesn't work I may try that next.

As for pics... sorry but my better digital camera seems to have taken a vacation or at least we were on vacation and the camera must be with some stuff that is yet to get unpacked?

Following are a few pics but too be honest I missed a couple I should have taken...

The Factory 870 Express stock quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_1.jpg

Stock Removed quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_2.jpg

Removing Factory Spacer quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_3.jpg

New Spacer that is added quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_4.jpg
(Note, this is one of the pics I missed but the rounded edges go into the receiver (it's obvious if you do one).

The new AR-15 stock & grip adapter pics:
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_5.jpg
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_6.jpg
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_7.jpg
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_8.jpg

The adapter mounted to the 870 receiver
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_10.jpg

With the pistol grip added
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_11.jpg

Looking at buffer threads
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_12.jpg

Difference in AR-15 stock as opposed to factory stock angle
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_13.jpg

Difference in angle again
quarterbore.com/images/870_stock_14.jpg

Note, I forgot to take a pic of the complete gun with the RRA 6-position stock... I will try again later but the guns are all locked up in the safe and I am not too motivated to try again tonight...

I will work on the scope mount issue and if I can find an 870 weaver mount I will advise how well that works as well! I have a Bushnell Holosight that I would like to mount on this shotgun for now if that will work...

Sorry for the pics as this camera isn't quite as nice as my newer one...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:22:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 11:27:45 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
I managed to find a Leupold 870 Scope mount on that nasty online auction so I should be in business by Saturday...

Or so I hope...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:42:21 AM EDT
Look at the one from Cavalry Arms a site sponsor.
www.cavalryarms.com/SST-870.html
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:07:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 12:11:17 PM EDT by XM777]
I'd like to see a video of whoever put that ACOG on the 870 firing a OOB 3" Mag. And then a closeup of whats left of their eye afterwards.

Not a real smart advertisment.

And quarterbore, my apologies for MY OT posting to your AA 870 thread.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:27:04 PM EDT
thanks for posting the pics.

Did this get shipped to you directly from Canada? I am interested in getting one to do a side by side evaluation against my SST 870, but due to my security clearance and job sensitivity, I am weary about ordering one since I have not heard anything on the exact legalities of importing gun parts from Canada. I know some wont care, but I like my job and I really like the paychecks, so I am not going to take any chances on something that is Iffy. I know US firearms manufacturers are required to be registered with the US state department and pay a healthy fee for this registration.

XM177, as long as an optic has good eye relief, I would not have any problem putting magnified optics on a shotgun. I am currently using an OKO red dot, but have a leupold MK8 that was on my tromix 50AE upper, that I want to put on my 870 and do some slug shooting at 100 yards.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 2:03:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By little223shooter:
XM177, as long as an optic has good eye relief, I would not have any problem putting magnified optics on a shotgun.



Yes, here where I hunt in PA we are restricted to slugs for deer and everyone scopes their slug gun. However, most select a scope with a little more than 1.5" of relief.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 2:27:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:21:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 4:23:58 AM EDT by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By little223shooter:
thanks for posting the pics.

Did this get shipped to you directly from Canada? ... on the exact legalities of importing gun parts from Canada. ... firearms manufacturers



This part isn't a firearm and isn't controlled. I did order it direct from Canada and I don't think you have a worry...

As for slugs and eye relief, I am under the impression that XM777 and I live in the same area of PA as I also hunt with slugs around home and I prefer a scope as well. My scope of choice is a little cheap Bushnell 1.5-5x and I have used 3-inch slugs when hunting bear but I have yet to get a shot at a PA Black Bear so I might just as well been carying an empty gun. 3-inch slugs will knock your teeth loose if you shoot too many and if you don't hold the gun right you will get cut!

Still, these are a great addition to the 870 and I am happy to see them on the market if for no other reason then it makes the shotgun look like the rifle we love...
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:13:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:54:31 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 9:43:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2003 6:42:23 AM EDT by XM777]

THE U.S. MUNITIONS IMPORT LIST
CATEGORY I--FIREARMS
a) Nonautomatic and semiautomatic firearms, to caliber .50 inclusive, combat shotguns, and
shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches in length, and all components and parts for such
firearms.
b) Automatic firearms and all components and parts for such firearms to caliber .50 inclusive.
c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms of other weapons having a special military
application (e.g. close assault weapons systems) regardless of caliber and all components
and parts for such firearms.
d) Firearms silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors.
e) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications and specifically designed or modified
components therefor.
NOTE: Rifles, carbines, revolvers, and pistols, to caliber .50 inclusive, combat shotguns, and
shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches in length are included under Category I(a).
Machineguns, submachineguns, machine pistols and fully automatic rifles to caliber .50
inclusive are included under Category I(b).



........


(c) A permit is not required for the importation of--

(2) Minor components and parts for Category I(a) and I(b) firearms, except
barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames) or complete breech mechanisms, when the
total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any single transaction.



www.atf.gov/regulations/27cfr47.pdf

Since the full blown retail price on the adapter is $139.00 CAN = $105.78 US, I would venture to guess that the wholesale value is < $100.00.

<edited to add>

I am not totally convinced that the Rem 870 would fall into the category "combat shotgun" as defined by the ATF.

After much perusing of the ATF regs, the only shotguns that I can see mentioned in reference to "combat shotgun" is the USAS-12 and the Striker. The features that place them into this category are the detachable box/drum magazine and semi-auto action. Shotguns that were designed specifically for combat use.

The 870 was designed for, and is mainly used for sporting purposes. In this case, none of the above would even apply.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 10:43:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 11:05:51 AM EDT
Here are the ITAR regs. pmdtc.org/reference.htm

I've been trying to get a scope mount from Brugger-Thomet AG in Switzerland for some time. They are having a hard time getting their new supplier DSA,Inc set up to comply with the ITAR regs. I guess it's not a simple process.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 11:55:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garryowen:
Look under the ITAR regs with Dept. of State



Items classified as Significant Military Equipment (SME) are regulated by the U.S. Munitions List (Categories I - XXI) which are administered by the State Department. Exports are licensed through the State Dept via the export licensing process per the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) or the Arms Export Control Act (AECA). See 22 CFR, parts 120-130. This is adminstered by the Office of Defense Trade Controls with opinions rendered from the military departments/services via the Defense Technology Security Administration.

Permanent import of SME (Firearms and parts)is delegated to and handled by the BATF via a Form 6.

See BATF import regulations link that I have posted above for situations were the Form 6 is/is not required.


Link Posted: 10/23/2003 12:40:53 PM EDT
I must ask that the discussion about the legality of importing/ exporting gun parts must end. I am not going to lock this thread at this time but the speculation about this issue must end. The owners of this site and senior staff are involved in discussions with the owner of this company and have asked that we allow them to handle this matter. Talking about the merits of the two competing adaptors is fine but leave the legal stuff alone. Thanks, MIKE.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 8:14:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2003 8:29:31 AM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
Hello All!

I have been asked by AR15.com staff to make a brief post mirroring discussion I have had with them. In the spirit of that discussion:

I have done a large amount of research in addition to seeking other, more informed interpretations of the law, and I have it on good authority that I am doing nothing illegal, nor are the people from the US who purchase my products. However, I have also been advised by council that discussion surrounding these laws is ill-advised. In keeping with this advice I was holding silent with a fair amount of difficulty, but then was seriously releaved when XM777 captured and articulated some of the more pertenent components.

So while I am not qualified nor in a position to help you develop your own familiarity with the law, I am however very qualified to discuss a subject I love dearly, and that is the development of a particular stock adapter that many people here can truthfully and proudly say they participated in development and that which has been the subject of some spirited discussion as of late! Discussion is maturing with respect to Argonaut Armament becoming an industry member, and until such time as these discussions conclude I'm not at liberty to discuss commercial aspects of the adapter. Technical type discussion is ABSOLUTELY WELCOME though...let's hear about what people like and what people don't like!

With the greatest respect,

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 8:50:09 AM EDT
BrobeeBiter,

Glad to see they have set you free to discuss your adapter! I am still waiting for Big Brown to drop off my scope adapter to really give a fair try but I hope to have it today? The waiting is always so hard!

Link Posted: 10/24/2003 9:45:38 AM EDT
Brobeebiter,

What advantages does the Argonaut unit have over the SST-870 unit
materially, structurally, and functionally?

The one thing I was interested in with The Argonaut unit was that it could
be used with the existing iron sights, but as Quarterbore posted in this
thread it doesn't seem to be ideal for that. If I am going to have to use a
reflex sight anyway, I'm thinking I might as well buy the unit designed from
the ground up to do that.

As far as I can see the retail cost on the two is fairly close since the
$200.00 SST-870 unit includes a $60.00 picatinny rail and $35.00 ergo grip.
(Looks like Quantico Arms has them in stock and is selling them for $185.00
www.quanticoarms.com/asp/itemDetail.asp?dispItemNum=765&type=M&CMN=Cavalry%20Arms&CMNum=25&CMSNum=91&CMSN=870%20Pistol%20Grip/Buttstock%20Adaptors).
So price is not a determining factor in my decision."

Link Posted: 10/24/2003 2:08:54 PM EDT

innocent_bystander: you ask about the "advantages" of the Argonaut adapter in comparison to a similar adapter manufactured by SST. Advantage, as defined by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

1. superiority of position or condition
2. a factor or circumstance of benefit to its possessor
3. benefit resulting from a course of action

I'm going to use number 2 as my starting point here, and my reason for starting with the dictionary is to bring to light that perspective is an important consideration when trying to determine if one piece of hardware is superior to another. With this in mind, this post is going to be more about what is different between the two adapters and what some of the considerations surrounding these differences are. Hopefully this information will better equip you to decide, based on your own needs and desires, what you feel is superior.

Method of Manufacture: The SST adapter is machined (cut out) from a solid block of aluminum, whereas the Argonaut adapter is cast (molten material is poured into a shape-defining mold). There are advantages to both methods of manufacture. Machining, when done correctly, can be quite a bit more precise than many types of casting, and has a much lower initial capital investment required for both equipment and production tooling. From a manufacturing perspective in the case of this type of adapter, the disadvantage of machining is the large number of tooling/workpiece setups required and the cost associated with doing so. Casting, while it has a higher initial capital investment, allows for significantly more economical production economics and when done properly, can closely approach the precision of high quality machining. There is some speculation with respect to the relative durability of a casting as compared to a machined part, and many of you are probably familiar with the controversy burns hot and rampant in the AR15 receiver part of the world. From my perspective, I believe this durability issue is irrelevant with respect to these styles of shotgun stock adapters as the places subject to breakage on an AR15 lower or upper receiver are thin to the extend of no dimension you would see anywhere on either of these two adapters. The Argonaut adapter is subject to a heat treating/stress relieving process designed to increase the hardness of the aluminum (much like an aluminum Kimber 1911 frame). I do not know if the SST adapter is heat treated or stress relieved.

Material: Both adapters are manufactured from aluminum, however the type of aluminum is most likely different. I can't speak about the exact alloy of aluminum used to manufacture the SST adapter, however I would speculate that an alloy favorable to machining was selected. Properties you would look for would be many, some of them being a lack of abrasiveness (to prolong tool life), the ability to machine with nice clean cuts (less maleable), and the ability to anodize. A little more science goes into selecting a flavor of aluminum that is to be cast, as you want it to have predictable & consistent shrinkage, no gas entrapment, and be capable of hardening vis a vis annealing if applicable, and it is in this case. All in all, I suspect the SST is machined from a high quality alloy designed for machining, and I can tell you that the aluminum flavor in the argonaut adapters has been carefully engineered as suitable for it's manufacturing process and end use.

Finish: Anodizing, the most common form of aluminum finishing is done for several reasons. The first is to address the relative softness of machined aluminum by converting the aluminum at the surface of the part to a much harder aluminum oxide. The process usually results in the chemical change from aluminum to aluminum oxide of approximately 4/1000 of an inch. The second reason is that during the anodizing, dye can be added to the process resulting in the electrochemically altered material taking on color. The SST adapter is finished this way. The careful selection of the alloy used to cast the argonaut adapters has a higher concentration of zinc than alloys used for machining, and while this alloy anodizes to aluminum oxide well, it does not take the dye. As such, we finish our adapters with either KG gunkote or a polyester based powder coating. Both are a very durable coating that we have been very pleased with thus far. I will be interested to hear some feedback from other users about these finishes.

Geometry: This is where the two adapters differ the most and where I believe people may find one more suited to their needs as compared to the other. The SST adapter has been designed to mimic exactly the rear end of the AR15, and as such allows for any AR15 style stock, fixed or telescoping or tube-style, to be affixed to the rear of the shotgun. This physically requires a large amount of vertical space...more so than the back of the 870 accommodates easily. With this though as one of SST's design criteria, they have done what looks to me to be a good job of making it work. To accommodate the need for more vertical space under this design scenario, they approached the challenge by lowering the pistol grip, and elevating slightly more the overlap of the adapter on the shotgun receiver. The Argonaut adapter is designed to be used with a telescoping style stock only. This apparent sacrifice in utility was not made blindly though, rather carefully calculated. It places the pistol grip directly in line with the trigger for proper (for me) hand/finger placement, and lowers slightly the height of the stock in relation to the top of the receiver, building into the design a slight rise. This slight rise reduces (but not eliminates) the degree to which the optics/sights are required to be elevated above the bore and given the ballistics of shotgun ammunition, this has implications with respect to trajectory as it relates to point of aim. It is my understanding that both adapters are manufactured such that a picatinny rail can be bolted securely to the top of the adapter.

So which one is better? That is a question that only you can decide. If there is any information that I have left out or neglected in any way, shape or form, please contribute!

Take care,

BrobeeBiter


Link Posted: 10/24/2003 7:42:56 PM EDT
FYI, for those of you skeptical about the cast "issue", I wouldn't worry about it. Caspian 1911 frames are cast (yes I am aware they make non-cast frames too, but the cast ones are the most popular/common) and they seen to hold up just fine.


Rich
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 5:58:28 AM EDT
BrobeeBiter,

Thanks for the reply that does clear things up. I'm a little confused as to why you chose to cast your adapter. Will casting be a cost saving measure down the road when your production volume increases? There are lot's of people (myself included) that are skeptical of cast parts. I remember seeing pictures on this site of the DPMS cast upper broken in half from the weight of the barrel.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 7:01:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2003 7:12:27 AM EDT by XM777]

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
There are lot's of people (myself included) that are skeptical of cast parts.



Skeptical of cast parts? I suggest you take a look around at those items you use every day. For example, pop the hood on your car and take a look at all the cast aluminum engine components.

Even the higher quality manufacturers, like Edelbrock, produce cast aluminum components, such as water pumps, headers, valve covers, etc. that are widely used in NASCAR today. I don't think the adapter will ever see those kind of stresses.

Personally, I would be much more concerned with the sharp corners on a machined part developing stress cracks than I ever would be of a similar part that has been cast.

The fact of the matter is that the cast aluminum process is widely used in the manufacturing world today for everything from power tools (Dewalt and Rigid) to engine blocks for racing cars. And the list goes on and on.


I remember seeing pictures on this site of the DPMS cast upper broken in half from the weight of the barrel.


I believe what you are referring to is the picture of the Hesse lower receiver that was broken in half from the weight of the stock.

In this case you are confusing poor quality workmanship with durability associated with the manufacturing process.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 2:12:11 PM EDT
It was a picture of a DPMS cast lo-pro upper that had broken in half.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 3:00:58 PM EDT


cast parts done properly are just as strong or stronger than machined parts. it all depends on the alloy used and the heat treatment used.

investment casting gives extremely good surface finish and dimensional tolerances. many aircraft engine parts are investment cast. with proper quality control it is an excellent way to make parts.


-Spaceman

Link Posted: 10/25/2003 7:45:14 PM EDT
I've been wondering about how the picattiny rail attaches on the SST adapter. From the pics I've seen of it, it appears that the rail is attached to the adapter. Does it also bolt onto the top of the reciever? It just seems that having it attached only to the adapter would allow more movement than a reciever mounted version.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 10:01:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 10:45:41 PM EDT
Will these accessories work on a Rem. 1100 12 ga.?
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 6:06:35 AM EDT
presto99: No, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective!), these adapters will not work on the 1100 due to geometry requirements of that (and the 1187) shotgun's operating rod and spring.

Take care,

Brobee
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 7:33:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2003 5:01:15 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Group,

I received the Leupold scope mount for my 870 on Saturday but we were not around all weekend to allow me to mount it until tonight. The Leupold scope mount combined with the ArgonautArmament 870 mount produces a flatop rail surface and stock angle that is IDENTICAL to an AR-15 flattop upper receiver.

I mounted my Hollosight on the 870 and it points the same as an AR-15 and I have an extra scope that I want to mount and give a try as well. With this mount, the 870 effectively clones the look , feel and point of the AR-15 and I will need to post pics soon.

Link Posted: 10/27/2003 6:00:40 AM EDT
^ Nice ^
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 5:55:27 AM EDT
Here is mine with an EOTECH. An excellent combination!


Link Posted: 10/31/2003 6:55:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TMIX:
Has anyone thought of putting a recoil reducing mercury tube inside the CAR stock tube?



How about one of those Pneumatic Buffer.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 2:44:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2003 2:45:21 PM EDT by SinistralRifleman]
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 10:52:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike103:
I must ask that the discussion about the legality of importing/ exporting gun parts must end. I am not going to lock this thread at this time but the speculation about this issue must end. The owners of this site and senior staff are involved in discussions with the owner of this company and have asked that we allow them to handle this matter. Talking about the merits of the two competing adaptors is fine but leave the legal stuff alone. Thanks, MIKE.


Boohoo....

Its only info folks, what are you afraid of?
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