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Posted: 4/20/2003 6:38:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2003 8:14:01 PM EDT by THellURider]

Mossberg 590

Remington 870

I'm a college student. Can't afford that Benelli yet. The Mossy's comes with a 9 or 8 round mag already. Whatever it ends up with
I'll put ghost ring sights on it, side saddle shell carrier and a good tac sling. Any ideas? I plan on using it in the house and also for 3 gun competition.

I don't know about stocks. I kinda want a vertical grip in the rear but I'm not sure wther I want a folding stock or not.

Thanks for lookin.
Link Posted: 4/20/2003 7:42:57 PM EDT
I say 590. Hi-cap, already tapper receiver ( if ya get one that doesn't already have ghost rings), but that's just my opinion. And ya know what they say about opinions....
Link Posted: 4/20/2003 7:50:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bws:
I say 590. Hi-cap, already tapper receiver ( if ya get one that doesn't already have ghost rings), but that's just my opinion. And ya know what they say about opinions....



I didn't know the 590 was already tapped. Is that to say if I find a good deal on one, but I want ghost ring sights, it's that much easier to add them? Is that something I can do myself, or would I need to take it to a gunsmith? Or am I misunderstanding?

If it's a gunsmith job, what does something like that cost typically?
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 4:21:36 AM EDT
I will be the first to admit my personal preference for the 870, but its' track record stands so far above and beyond anything else that it speaks for itself. If I were in your place, I would start haunting the gunshops/gunshows for a good, used 870 Wingmaster. (In off season, they are not uncommon at around $200-250) The quality of the Wingmaster and/or Police models is definitely better than that of the "Express" or "HD" guns Remington is selling today. A new Police model will cost around $400 new currently.

You do not need 3" chamber for a "Tactical" shotgun, but you will want the "flextab" carrier of the later guns...it can be added to older models, or you can slot your own if you know how. Ghost ring sights are manufactured by several companies and will run from around $100-150 UNinstalled. Installation fees will vary depending on who does it and the exact sights you select, but probably another $75 at least. You will want a good mag tube extension for match shooting...Scattergun Tech from Brownell's at $45 or so...and an oversized safety button...also from Brownells, but I can't recall the price.

The walnut stock is just fine, (the junk "box-crate wood is NOT!) and you can cut down a long fore arm, or you can buy the Speedfeed stock with short/LE type fore end...I like the standard design with shortened length of pull...but they also make a pistol grip model. Sling from my favorite...CQB...about $40 or so. SideSaddle, which I don't use, about $40 if I recall.

Cutting down a shotgun barrel is something any gunsmith can do, so don't worry about barrel length. Of course, you may prefer to keep the original barrel and buy a shorter one...Mossberg makes short barrels for the 870 that sell for around $90-100 and can be found at several vendors.

This puts you at around $550-600 minimum in the gun without a refinish...which it really will not need, but you may want to have done. Now we are close to used Benelli territory. The only real savings here is the fact that you can shoot your gun and do these things as you are able, without having to spring for them all at once. This sort of thing is why people buy Mossbergs and HD models...but neither...in my opinion...is nearly as good as this "assembled" shotgun.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 4:58:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2003 5:01:17 AM EDT by 308wood]
at my local gun shop i can get a 870 "tactical" for about 300.
the Benelli is 350 but comes with ghost ring and is a 3.5" mag. i would wait, save the extra 50 bucks and get the benelli. if you have to buy now get the 870. it will last several life times.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 4:15:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2003 4:16:36 PM EDT by cevtv]

Originally Posted By 308wood:
at my local gun shop i can get a 870 "tactical" for about 300.
the Benelli is 350 but comes with ghost ring and is a 3.5" mag. i would wait, save the extra 50 bucks and get the benelli. if you have to buy now get the 870. it will last several life times.
www.benelliusa.com/nova_pump/images/nova_popup04.gif




I was just looking at the Benelli for $289. Nice shotgun!
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 4:21:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2003 4:24:28 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Id go 870 POLICE. You arent going to find a smoother operating, better made pump. Avoid the Express models IMHO. Cast reciever, absolutely NO polishing inside the barrel (I learned this the hard way) and that crappy plastic trigger guard with the lock out safety and none of the polishing of the action that goes into the Police model. Hit the pawn shops and find an old Wingmaster. You'll have the same quality.

Mossbergs have never done it for me, and the M590A1's were issued to the Marines with steel trigger guards after breakage problems on the original plastic ones.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 4:38:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2003 4:57:33 PM EDT by cnatra]
consider the 870 Marine too

can't go wrong with a 590 though

I think the Winchester 1300 Defender is a good deal but no ghost ring sights, maybe the FN version is available with that ??

www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_home.htm

defender looks like this but all black, $230-250 easy at a local reatailer like Oshmans

www.usrac.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=512&type_id=908&cat=012C


Benelli Nova would be a good choice too

Choate stocks www.riflestock.com
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 6:56:13 PM EDT
Lumpy, Cast receiver on the 870 Express? Not finished like the 870 Wingmaster but still I think a steel receiver, not cast. MIKE.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 7:07:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike103:
Lumpy, Cast receiver on the 870 Express? Not finished like the 870 Wingmaster but still I think a steel receiver, not cast. MIKE.



I read that & wondered the same thing

I think his point is it's cast steel not forged which would surprise me for Reminton, I hadn't heard this before

I think every other major shotgun amker uses forged aluminum receivers though, Mossberg, Benelli(except Nova) , Winchester, Beretta
I dunno for sure
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 7:32:26 PM EDT
Cnatra, I own three of each, three Wingmasters and three Express. Just pulled one out of the safe. Looks like forged steel to me, not cast, but I am not a metallurgist. MIKE.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 3:53:52 AM EDT
When they were introduced, Remington said the Express receivers were the exact same ones used for all 870's, just not finished as well. However, one thing you can usually take to the bank is the fact that if a company can build something a nickle cheaper, they will...but if it costs them three cents to make it better, forget it!

I'm with Lumpy on the bottom line...Police Model or older Wingmaster.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 4:34:04 AM EDT
Rem 870 for now and then trade it for a Benelli when you have the money.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 12:02:50 PM EDT
I read a post from a gunsmith on another board that stated the following:


1. The Express reciever appears cast, but no one at Remington will confirm or deny that, so its just rumor at this time. I should have clarified that.

2. The Express models use a two piece barrel (chamber + barrel), as opposed to the Police/Wingmasters one piece barrel.

3. Express model barrels are used "as forged" with NO polishing in the bore - which accounts for the dug by a gopher look on the inside.

4. The Police/Wingmaster models recieve 35 more finishing/polishing/inspection steps than the Express models do.

Ive own both the Express model and the Police, and can tell you, the Police is operates smoother (and that COUNTS on a manually operated shotgun), and is of a much higher quality. I wish I had known these things before I put the money down on the Express. If you have one, Id eventually replace the barrel and the trigger group with the better Police/Wingmaster parts.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 1:43:45 PM EDT
Lump, I agree that the finish on the Wingmaster is much better than the Express, again I own three of each, but two points. One - I checked all three Express models I own and none of them have a plastic trigger. There are two explanations for this. The 12 gauge is a older model, I got about 10 years ago when the Express model first came out maybe they did not use the plastic trigger at that time. The other two Express models are in 28 gauge and .410 bore maybe they do not use a plastic trigger on the small gauges. Two - Again I look the receiver over real good and to my untrained eye the receiver does not looked cast, not finished well but not cast. As I have said before My children own three Mossberg 500 youth's, my brother has a 9200 and his son has a 500 youth, one of my hunting buddies has the Mossberg 835 and for my money I would buy a Remington. Mossberg makes a great shotgun and if money is a problem and the choice is a Mossberg or no shotgun than I would not hesitate to buy the Mossberg. Some day I will own a Benelli just to see what the hoopla is about but right now there are other guns higher on the list. For the working stiff who does not have unlimited funds the 870 is the best buy IMHO. MIKE.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 1:50:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2003 1:51:58 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
My 6 month old 870 Express has a plastic trigger guard with the key lock safety. Older models didnt have it. I bought it as a behind the truck seat beater.

To put it bluntly, after being spoiled with a Benelli Tactical and NICE 870 Police, the bore on this gun is a massive disappointment, and patterns probably 40% wider than my Police model, with a lot of inconsistancy.

Im not saying they are BAD guns, but they need some tweeking, and that defeats the purpose of their affordability.
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 8:11:54 AM EDT
Benelli Nova's are good out of the box for whatever you want to do and require NO TWEAKING, which is a major advantage over most shotguns incl. the over-rated Mossbergs and (non-police model) 870's. If you want a good out of the box Remi or Moss check out Scattergun Tech (Wilson Combat) or Vang Comp but these cost way too much (Remi. Factory Police 870's are nice, but again $$$).

I would go for the Nova if I were you, trust me, you can't go wrong with them. Just get the 2 round extension....

I would also recommend buying a shotshell pouch, such as the 25 round one that Blackhawk makes (w/ the scuba webbing on top w/ the slit so you only have to reach in and grab some loose shells), so you can carry shells at the range easily. Just put on you belt...

Doggonit (Benelli ownz all Mossbergs......)
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 2:12:05 PM EDT
get yourself a mossy 590. 8+1 capacity mil spec finish ghost ring sights and a BAYONET LUG!!!! I recently bought one and I wouldnt give it up for all the 870's on earth!!!!
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 5:28:37 PM EDT
Wolf, The Mossberg 590 is a one dimensional gun. It has a fixed choke, replacement barrels of different lengths, with different chokes are not available and bayonets have a very narrow use outside the military. Only needed for when you are attacked by a large group, have expended all of your available shotshells and no other firearms are handy. I have a Colt pre-ban AR-15 that does not have a bayo lug and I am not disappointed. Just my 2 cents. MIKE.
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 8:57:22 PM EDT
You can also use the lug for mounting accessories. The 590 has a larger mag cap then the 870, the finish is alot better aswell. as for various barrels and chokes? well I thought this was about a "tactical" shotgun. if you want a super duper long barreled shotgun to hunt waterfowl then why buy a "tactical" shotgun? and why buy a shorter barrel? the magazine tube is there and would stick out further than any shorter barrel thus rendering a shorter barrel a mute point. im a bit new when it comes to chokes. what is their "tactical" purpose?
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 9:01:02 PM EDT
590
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 8:10:05 AM EDT
I would also vote for Benelli M1, but Benelli Nova Special Purpose is PLENTY good.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 11:13:31 AM EDT
Get an old 870 Wingamster. You can do anything with them. Every add-on out there is made to work on an 870 before anything else. They are more versatile and better made. Just my $.02.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 6:35:51 PM EDT
Wolf, Many "tactical" shotguns including the Benelli M1, Winchester X2 practical and the Remington competition master come with choke tubes. Different loads especially buckshot pattern differently. Having choke tubes give you choice of full, modified and improved cylinder chokes. Mossberg 590 come with fixed improved cylinder choke. After you have mastered shooting stationary targets with a tactical shotgun you might want to shoot some reactive or flying targets. That is where the need for different barrels comes in. MIKE.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 9:00:30 PM EDT
Benelli Nova comes with fixed cylinder bore.

I might get one of these for field shotgun - I just can't take M1 out and beat it in the field!
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 10:35:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2003 10:42:52 PM EDT by Big_Bear]
The differences between an 870 Express and an 870P are minimal. Per Remingtons's website, structurally the two receivers are identical. The Police model has a more durable finish and doesn't come with the "dimple" in the mag tube. Also has a shorter forend and heavier shell latches, sear spring, and magazine spring.

The differences between an 870 Express and a Wingmaster are only cosmetic. The Express comes with a birch stock and matte finish and the Wingmaster comes with a walnut stock and polished blue finish.

IF you go with a Mossberg 590, get the factory ghost ring sights. The receiver is drilled and tapped for the rear sight but the front sight should be attached by a gunsmith. It has to be soldered (or enameled on) and if soldered the barrel has to be refinished. That kind of work isn't cheap.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 10:57:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MaverickMkii:

I might get one of these for field shotgun - I just can't take M1 out and beat it in the field!



Why the hell not?!? If I bought a Holland & Holland or a Purdy I'd sure as hell use it. It was designed for this.(I know a benelli M1 is not purdy but yet my comparison stands.) C'mon!
Link Posted: 4/25/2003 6:38:01 AM EDT
hehehe.

If I just use M1 then I won't be able to buy anything more!!
Link Posted: 4/25/2003 7:23:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MaverickMkii:
hehehe.

If I just use M1 then I won't be able to buy anything more!!



Point taken!
Link Posted: 4/26/2003 8:35:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
The differences between an 870 Express and an 870P are minimal. Per Remingtons's website, structurally the two receivers are identical. The Police model has a more durable finish and doesn't come with the "dimple" in the mag tube. Also has a shorter forend and heavier shell latches, sear spring, and magazine spring.

The differences between an 870 Express and a Wingmaster are only cosmetic. The Express comes with a birch stock and matte finish and the Wingmaster comes with a walnut stock and polished blue finish.




I have an Express HD that I bought in 1997, and two old (1960's) Wingmasters (12 and 20 ga.) that my dad gave me. I've heard that the newer HD's have plastic trigger groups and some other less than desirable changes, but mine is steel. The bore is every bit as shiny (polished?) as either Wingmaster. There was the mag tube dimple issue, but 5 minutes with a Dremel tool negates that. But, the Wingmasters both have noticeably smoother actions. Whether it is because the old Wingmasters have been used more and are better broken in or it is because they originally were better made, I don't know. I like my HD, but I do plan to buy an 870P one of these days. The price difference between the HD and Police models is worth it just for the finish, and if the action is slick like my old guns, then all the better!
The interchangeability of barrels on the 870 is probably the biggest asset if you are on a budget since barrels are pretty cheap compared to a complete gun.
Link Posted: 4/27/2003 10:45:26 AM EDT
It is hardly ever brought, up but it was a big deal to me when I was chosing my shotgun. Remington has decided to make it difficut to put a mag extension on. It is easily defeated with a dremel but.....it's alot like building those dang gun locks into the gun. I figure if they build guns like that...they aren't building them for me. I vote with my dollars and buy elsewhere. I am not flaming the 870... it's a great gun. My .02.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:14:44 PM EDT
back in the middle 80's befors the express 870, remington produced a sportsman 12 pump and an autoloader,, 870 and 1100, i bought a pump and its as sweet as any wingmaster
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 9:31:29 AM EDT
As a previous gun-owning student, I would recommend buying a shotgun you are happy with rather than one you plan on discarding. Don't go cheap, because quality isn't a bolt-on upgrade. :)

The Remington has a lot more gunsmiths and accessories. The Mossberg is a nice, businesslike shotgun that doesn't need modification. Once again, if you want ghostrings, get them on the gun, installation is not a do-it-yourself trick. I have also had problems with some mag extensions on the Remington, so if you get one, test, test, test before you trust.

On the folding stock: just say no for right now.

As a final note, I'd recommend deciding whether it's for competition or defense. A defensive gun you compete with is one thing, a competition gun you keep by the bed is something else. Without knowing your situation, I suspect the first is the case.
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