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Posted: 4/18/2003 6:26:48 PM EDT
Hello!

I've been searching long and hard for the perfect stock for my remington 870 and have tried just about everything under the sun. Nothing wrong with the factory stock in my humble opinion, but I've been looking for ways to make my shotgun more appropriate for CQB and there just has to be a better way.

The first thing I tried was a pistol grip. I ordered one mail-order and gleefully tore the packaging open when it arrived several days later. In a flash I had my old stock off and the Pistol Grip stock on, and I have to confess that I thought the whole package was now a pretty sexy piece of hardware. Off to the range I rushed...thumbed two slugs into the magazine to get myself going and promptly split my lip open. Gushing blood but not one to give up easily, I figured I just needed to get stronger and get a little more practice in. Well...several months, 200 rounds, and 8 stiches later I was finally prepared to entertain the idea that a pistol griped shotgun maybe was not such a useful thing.

The next stock I picked up was of the side-folding variety. Well...being left handed I quickly came to realize that this was not the way to go either, and that the ergonomics of the stock left alot to be desired. On to the top folders...wait a minute...now I can't see the front bead!

I then came across a photograph of the Sage International telescoping stock. Other than the stock pre-empting the use of a side saddle, this thing looked promising! I phoned Sage International and they informed me that living in Canada I would not be able to buy one unless it came from their Canadian Distributor. Three telephone calls later to their Canadian Distributor left me even more frustrated. Despite their being no canadian laws against owning the stock, they would not sell it to anyone who was not law enforcement. *sigh*

The situation was getting grim. Currently on my shotguns I have speedfeed stocks in varying varieties, however the length of pull (even on the shortened one) is a little long and makes handling the gun more awkwards than it should be. Then I came across the Benelli M4. What a sweet piece of hardware this would be! I was pretty excited about this until I checked out Canadian gun laws and noticed that just about every firearm manufactured by Benelli is prohibited.

****Arrg!!!!**** They say that necessity is the mother of invention...well in this case it might be more appropriate to say that frustration is the mother of invention.

This is what I am currently working on:


www.coyotecanada.ca/stock_conversion.html

I've got a machinist working on the prototype as I write this, but before I get too far down the road (and out of pocket) I thought I might try to solicit some feedback. Check it out and let me know what you think!

I am going to be getting out to test the adapter sometime next week and will post more info as that happens.

Thanks...

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 4/18/2003 6:32:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2003 6:33:27 PM EDT by Wipeout]
Just go buy the whole shotgun


Link Posted: 4/18/2003 11:51:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2003 11:53:49 PM EDT by TREETOP]
Link Posted: 4/20/2003 4:45:48 PM EDT
I for one would be interested in your device. I like the Winchester 1300 with the adapter but I dont want to pay $700 for another shotgun when I have an 870 that is begging to be modified. The ace idea is great but it still looks like all of the other folding stocks out there. I would definitely leave the rail on the receiver and maybe use the LPA sights for rails. I think your modification to raise the line of sight is an excellent solution to the problem.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 7:47:20 AM EDT
I have several 870s (and love their reliability) and as such have been hesitant to change platforms, especially to an action that I know little about. I was surprised when I looked at the ACE adapter, as I had been looking hard to find an AR15 stock adapter with no luck (I guess I did not look hard enough!). I agree with 96AG on the aesthetics of the ACE adapter...it does have that folding-type-geometry to it. In addition to having engineered a pretty serious rise in their adapter, they are using a different geometry on their grip.

I pick up my prototype sometime this week...I'll post some pictures and a report on handling!

BrobeeBiter

Link Posted: 4/21/2003 12:52:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2003 12:59:37 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
FWIW, I have been working on the same thing for almost a year... I agree that a simple adapter that would accept any AR-15 style stock (MSS) plus any AR-15 grip would make a very versitile weapon system.

How close are you? I made one out of wood and proved the concept to myself but I have yet to make a cast version...

I agree that I came up with the idea based on the FN Shotgun after seeing the MSS system... It just seem like the 870 and the MSS would go together!

Oh yea, one problem I had (as I see in your pics) is that if we want to use the factory trigger guard and safety, the pistol grip moves your hand back... It wasn't real bad, but it was a bit of a reach compared to a standard AR-15. This is one of those things I would prefer to just buy one as the principle of adapting a stock to another rifle will be to difficult to patent and after you get one that works, the bigger companies will make them cheaper than I could... SO... Make some and I will buy one from you and save my energy for other projects I have going!
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 2:43:14 PM EDT
You bring up an interesting point Quarterbore...kudos to you for immediately uncovering what has been so far my biggest design challenge! I have not been sure what the best way to address the trigger-finger-length-of-pull/factory trigger guard & safety issue. I tend to like having to reach a little with my short and stubby trigger finger, however am very cogniscent of the fact that many people are going to see this as a drawback.

The prototype version I am currently working on is an experiment in addressing this by lowering the pistol grip a little. This allows it to butt right up against the trigger guard.

So far all my prototypes have been machined from 6063 aluminum. I'm pretty close to having one that I am completely happy with, and if there is enough interest I have thought about doing a production run...hell...I will probably do a small production run regardless just to test out whether or not there might be a market. What are your thought?

I agree in the patent department...getting a one to cover off the concept would be difficult, expensive, and awkwards to enforce. Besides...imitation is the best form of flattery, no?

I would love to see some photographs of the one you manufactured from wood....

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 7:19:47 PM EDT
OK, I need to run but perhaps we can work on this together.... I'll try to E-mail you tomorrow

QB
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 9:11:48 PM EDT
I have a prototype of what you're talking about designed by a guy I met on here named Jon King. He has asked me not to post pictures yet because he is working on the patent for it.
It is a solid piece of metal that follows the contours of the 870's receiver and allows you to install an AR15 pistol grip and collapsible stock. It works great and I already have orders ready for him as soon as he is ready to start sending them out.
I wish I could tell you more. I bought an ACE adaptor and I didn't like it because it is not as solid. You screw two pieces together and the stock attaches to one of the two pieces. It comes as a collapsible folder or just as a collapsible.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 5:08:12 AM EDT
Like I said, there are MANY people working on these and a patent will be almost impossible to defend....

It is a simple unit, the adapting of the AR-15 stock to other weapons is fairly common, and it requires very little skill to do!

With the 870 there are some technical issues in getting a comfortable grip (as described above) but a Mossburg would be pretty easy to do because of the the thumb safety!
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 7:16:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2003 2:21:46 PM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
But the worst part is that there is not one yet available to the general consumer!! With everything I have bolted (and there have been many!) to my 870 I have felt like I have had to in one way or another comprimise. This is frustrating and has left me with a strong desire to do something about it.

Ok...I'll confess that as I sketched the idea out I briefly enertained delusions of grandeur with respect to how the masses would come flocking, buying the adapters faster than I could get the CNC machine shop to mill them out. I even went as far to seek out and meet with a highly experienced patent lawyer and excitedly tell him everything I could about how great the prototype was and how I desperately needed to patent it so I could rake in the billions by myself. Well...that was a humbling experience if I ever had one!

So now I am simply excited to know that very soon I am going to have a telescoping AR15 stock bolted onto the back of my Remington 870. Not only am I excited, but anxious to solicit feedback from other interested parties as to how it can be improved. I find the whole manufacturing process pretty fascinating, and for interests sake I am going to do a production run or two where the worst that can happen is I lose a bit of money getting an education that is useful for other things I would like to pursue later. I'm excited that I might be able to provide people with one more option for their shotgun, and besides...the BAC (bad-ass-cool) factor is so high!

Competition/collaberation is a wonderful thing...the more people that get in there and try to make one, the more quickly the concept will either evolve into something useful or be proven in practice to be just another piece of junk you can bolt to the back of your 12 gauge.

I was over at the machine shop yesterday to check on the progress of the machinist...I pick up the prototype tomorrow! Woohoo! I am pretty sure I am going to have to have one more iteration of in the design/prototype process as there is some challenge in optimizing the pistol grip/safety/trigger guard geometry. The range test drive is scheduled for the end of the week...Pictures comming soon!

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 7:36:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2003 6:55:37 PM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
Hi Everyone!

Ok...I picked up the stock adapter yesterday! initially, I was a little disapointed by it's crude finish, but resigned myself to acceptance that this is a trial and error type of process for the first little bit. This was what the concept was:

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/Prototype_Current_Drawing.jpg

And here it is in execution:

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/Isabel_Holding_Prototype_I.jpg

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/Isabel_Holding_Prototype_II.jpg

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/Isabel_Holding_Prototype_III.jpg

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/Jason_Holding_Prototype_I.jpg

In this prototype the trigger guard/pistol grip issue is addressed by dropping the pistol grip significantly. I got out to the range yesterday evening and gingerly thumbed some ammunition into the magazine. Lined everything up, braced myself for the worst, and then "BOOM!" I was shocked at how little recoil there was. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM! A big grin began to grow on my face as I raced around looking for some slugs. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM! It was amazing...never in my life had I ever experienced so little recoil from a 12 gauge shotgun shooting 1 1/4 ounce 2 3/4 inch magnum slugs. I didn't have my camera with me at the range, but I will get some photographs of the gun in action and post them soon.

My big grin kept me awake all night....here are some things to consider:


  • There is not enough rise on the stock to get a good weld and still be able to sight down the barrel. I originally thought this was going to be a serious drawback, however after discovering the inherent recoil management properties of this design I am now of the opinion that an extended rail with some sort of elevated iron sights will be the way to go. After I sort out the design issues of the adapter, I will tackle the rail. I had a cheap weaver mount for an 870 (the one that screws into the side of the receiver). I mounted my EOTech ontop for the range test yesterday evening and it was exceptional.


  • The trigger/pistol grip geometry is interesting on this prototype and surprisingly easy to use. I originally anticipated that it would be seriously wonky, uncomfortable, and awkward, however after running 40 rounds through the gun it was growing on me fast. I had been planning to construct another prototype as detailed in a drawing I'm going to attach later on, however now have some doubt. I am going to get out and get a couple of hundred rounds through the gun for further research...:)


  • There is no radius (as there is on the ar15) from the pistol grip to the tube on the stock. I thought this might also present some issues, however in the brief range test it had no negative impact at all. How important do you think it would be to have the correct geometry to mount other ar15 stocks on the adapter? I'm thinking this would be pretty cool, but it implies all kinds of serious design challenges. Check out the drawing below:



http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/Prototype_Revision_Concept_Drawing.jpg

As you can see...if I raise and move back the pistol grip to be even with the trigger guard, there is no room for the secondary hole required for all the "normal" ar15 stocks.

I was originally all excited to proceed to prototype number II and possibly a production run, however I am going slow down a litle and try to get some serious range time with the gun over the next few weeks. I'll try to post some photographs of the gun in action soon.

Anxious for your feedback....

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 9:36:55 AM EDT
Personally, I think I would go ahead and raise the grip up to where it should be for proper trigger finger placement. I think most pwople that would be using this would be using a CAR stock anyways!

Your prototype looks great... My prototype was a piece of 2x4 that I cut down with a table saw and driller a hole in the end for the CAR stock.... I tried to find it to post a pic... it's at home somewhere...?

Mine worked like yours except I used an 80% AR-15 lower as a template for the geometry. With mine, the grip was moved back pretty far from the trigger and it made for a long reach. I thought about just customizing the pistol grip so that the pistol grip would fit over the rear portion of the trigger guard. Then the issue becomes the safety and I looked at the prospect of making a longer safety system....

It was at that point that I decided I had other projects that I could work on and kind of gave up! Without a metal lathe or mill, I had run out of options....

Good Luck as I think you are on the right path!
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 4:30:08 PM EDT
BrobeeBiter,
The prototype looks great. Regarding the sight radius would a ghost ring type sight raise the line of sight sufficiently for iron sights? Another option if iron sights were not important would be the KAC 870 RAS although I don't have any experience with it.If you need a hand with testing I would be more than willing to try it out for you.
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 4:53:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2003 4:55:27 PM EDT by TREETOP]
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 5:19:03 PM EDT
I must admit, that looks really good.


I have a question though, in the last pic, on the left side of the gun, is that little bracket thing part of what holds the adapter on, or is it just how the eotech rail is mounted?
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 5:32:44 PM EDT
If a ghost ring sight was mounted on a rail, then there is enough rise to get a good sight picture with normal cheek weld....if the sight wassimply bolted to the receiver, then unless it was of an especially high profile I think a guy might be in trouble. I have had a good look (on paper only) at the Knight RAS Shotgun mount, and I have to confess it looks pretty sexy. It is a little pricey for me to get my hands on though. They are looking to be about $275.00 Canadian to get one in my grubby little paws...yikes! Even though I think I might just have to buck up and test one out soon, my $75.00 weaver rail (that I already own) will suffice for now....I'd rather spend the money on development of the stock adapter. Once I have all the kinks of the adapter worked out, I might try my hand at developing a rail system that runs the entire length of the shotgun, bolting onto the mount, the receiver, and the barrel....then a guy could mount all kinds of A.R.M.S. iron sights as well as a CQB style optic such as an EOTech or an Aimpoint.

Whoah....Walk before you run Brobee!

With regards to the twisting of the stock...in my testing thus far I have resorted to torquing up the castle nut and it has seemed to prevent the tube from rotating, even under the stress of firing. I am going to proceed with the development of the second prototype soon, and as it is drafted up there will not be room for the lock ring. I'm thinking that I might use a set screw instead if it becomes a problem.

In the last picture on the left side of the receiver is where the mount for the weaver rail secures to two bolts that replace the trigger group pins. The stock mount is mounted to the receiver via a bolt screwed into the back of the regular receiver stock nut.

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 5:55:56 PM EDT
I still think that looks really good!


If I may venture as far as to ask "if you do go into production with these, or if you would bake them just for the heck of it, what do you think you would charge for them?"



I was also thinking, mabye like milling or welding a slot on the side of the adapter for something like a single point sling?

Anyways, it looks great again!
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 7:18:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 6:54:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2003 6:58:22 AM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
Pricing...whoah! I've still got to take delivery of the second prototype (I couldn't wait...it is under construction as I write this...d'oh!) and then go run a thousand rounds through it to give it something of a serious test before I am going to be comfortable attempting any sort of mass production run. When I get there (post testing of the next prototype), I'll have to rack up all the cash I have blown so far and then try to understand how much capital I want to risk in a large production run versus what the potential market might be and alienating potential happy shotgun owners vis a vis a prohibitively high per-unit-cost. I am a little risk adverse, and as such I think that the initial production run will be less than 30 pieces. I'm feeling out some CNC machining shops and anodizing outfits right now...until I have the second prototype done it is a little difficult to anticipate how much machining time is required to make each piece as well as what the setup costs are going to be for a production type environment.

I am also going to have to do some serious soul searching. If all I want to accomplish in the production run is to make back my development capital? Do I want to try to make a viable business plan that generates enough cash to try and grow a little in the product development department? If so, understanding what the true market is will take some blood sweat and tears, and then chasing that market will be even more work. If it turns out being good, I have to develop some stock adapters for the mossberg and winchester pump guns (so no one is left out!), and then proceed down the road of new product development...such as the full length bolt on picatinny rail (which I think would be really cool!)

So to answer the pricing question, I think it is too early to tell. Not looking at any of the above, but performing the good old gut test, I am guessing that I am going to have to try and keep it under $100.00 US if there is any chance at all people are spend their hard earned cash on one. This is going to be a challenge.

I think that a single point sling attachment is a good idea. Would it be better to have it milled into the receiver (on both sides), or have a threaded hole for a swivel attachment?

If the next prototype turns out the way I am hoping (and have drawn), the profile will be similar, but not identical to that of the AR15. Let me check out how much I would have to change the design to make this happen.

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 7:14:40 AM EDT
It sounds like you are starting to figure out alot of what you want to do which is really Great!



regarding the single point sling, a hole for a swivel would definatley be easier for production, but I think would be harder to design, and, (if I'm thinking the same thing you are( probably not be as ruged as a milled attachment.


Thanks just my .02 cents.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 7:54:10 PM EDT
The one that I have from Jon King and the one from ACE both have a threaded hole for a sling swivel. The ACE even comes with a sling swivel installed.
It seems like it would be pretty easy to just drill the hole and thread it but I'm not a machinist.
Link Posted: 4/28/2003 11:29:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2003 11:31:33 AM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
Hi All!

Progress Report:

I picked up and approved some Solidworks 3D CAD drawings of the current prototype this morning, authorizing physical construction of the next prototype. I also updated the www.coyotecanada.ca/stock_conversion website with some of the information already posted here as well as some conceputal drawings of what the full length rail system will look like.

The machine shop is creating shavings as I write this, so I should have some photographs to post shortly!

It is amazing what a small world it is and how the euphemism of "success has many fathers while failure is an orphan" seems to ring louder and louder the further down this path I run...I heard through the grapevine this morning (and confirmed on the telephone with the subject of the rumour) that a Canadian precision rifle manufacturer is now looking at development of an ar15-remington 870 stock adapter. The best part about this is that there will more than likely soon be one available to the general public...I know my 870 is waiting!

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 3:40:17 PM EDT
Thats a nice looking piece buddy, keep up the good work.. Any plans for mossberg?
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 6:56:35 PM EDT
Mossberg? You bet! And the Winchesters and FabArms as well...that is provided I can try to walk before I run and get the kinks worked out of the 870 adapter and full length picatinny rail first. Range report comming soon!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:45:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BrobeeBiter:
Mossberg? You bet! And the Winchesters....



Fantastic!!! Your work looks great. I hope you get everything worked out, I would really like to have one of these for my FN Police/Winchester 1300.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:03:43 AM EDT
And for the Remington 1100/1187??!!Oh boy!!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:43:18 PM EDT
I would ABSOLUTELY buy one.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 6:00:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2003 6:38:08 AM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
Sorry for the wait! Been through a couple more design iterations to work out some minor issues. I know I keep promising this, but I will post some pictures soon....most likely this weekend or early next week. I'm waiting for a tap to come in so we don't have to keep cutting threads for the AR15 stock tube with the lathe...it is scheduled to arrive on Thursday of this week.

Oh, I can't resist...these photographs are about a week old...(I apologize for not having newer ones!)...I have since done the all the radiusing and have finalized the receiver attachment/trigger-group geometry. It feels and works very well. Waiting for that *&@#$^% tap to arrive is driving me nuts!


http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_in_progress_I.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_in_progress_Ib.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_in_progress_If.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_in_progress_Ig.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_in_progress_Ih.jpg



Take care...

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:10:54 AM EDT
That's looking great!!! Thanks for the update.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 8:13:33 PM EDT
Man, I cant wait... This looks so FREAKING awesome!!!!

[drool]I cant wait to see this on my 870 Marine Magnum [/drool]
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 6:56:32 AM EDT
Hey, just a thought...

Since the safety is in essence not movable and the grip is made of plastic, couldnt you just mill (or Dremel) the $2.50 A2 grip and radius the "lips" of the grip around the safety?

Wouldnt this bring the grip much closer to the trigger?
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 6:59:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 3:26:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2003 3:38:00 PM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
Hello All!

Some serious progress to report. The tap finaly showed up at the machine shop and the next prototype is complete (except the finish...I have not decided whether or not to get the piece anodized or if I am going to just splurge and get the whole gun powder coated). Here are some photographs of the piece in progress and then attached to the gun:


http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Before_Final_Contouring_Ia.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Before_Final_Contouring_Ib.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Before_Final_Contouring_I.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Assembled_V.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Assembled_IV.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Assembled_VI.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Assembled_I.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Prototype_II_Assembled_II.jpg


I got out to the range for a preliminary test and ran 100 slugs through the gun...the stock is rock solid...nothing came loose at all. What do you think? How would you make it better? Personally I am pretty happy with the design...I'll drill and tap a small hole for a swivel on either side of the adapter, and there will be holes on the top for the attachment of the full length rail adapter (the next thing I am going to start right away...I'm waiting for material; namely a 19 inch picatinny rail that is en-route from Florida...I can't wait!) The trigger guard/safety/grip geometry is not only functional, but quite comfortable as well. I might try some slightly different bevel designsto go from the width of the receiver to the width of the grip, however these are only cosmetic and will not impact how the gun handles at all.

For people who are interested, I should be rigged up for a production run soon! Before the shavings start flying, I have to get my drawings modified to reflect all the improvements that were made during prototyping, and then get these drawings to a bunch of machine shops to see who is the most competitive. I should have this done in a couple of weeks.

I'll keep you all informed!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 5:57:14 PM EDT
I WANT ONE
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 6:53:25 PM EDT
All I can say is WOW!! That is really looking good, great job so far. I do hope it goes well so you'll make one for the Winchester 1300/FN
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 11:05:34 PM EDT
Ok, first off, that is a thing of beauty!!!

A hearty GOOD JOB and

Would you mind a very minor request???

Could the rear of the adaptor be radiused (sp) to emulate the AR15 so that the Ergo type grips can fit???

Don't get me wrong, I will buy either way, but I would love to have ergo grips on both my AR's and my 870.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:03:15 AM EDT
Hello!

I think that radiusing the rear end of the adapter to match the one on the AR15 upper receiver is an excellent idea. I've also wanted to radius the top of the adapter such that it matches the contours of the 870 receiver. As you can tell though these two radiuses do not exist in the prototype's current configuration. Here is the issue and why:

When I first embarked on this path, I told myself that I would never settle for what I did not think was perfect. As such, I had been insisting on both these radiuses until I began to understand the complexities involved in machining the parts and what these two seemingly simple requests would do to the cost/unit component of the equation. The radius on top is the worst in this respect, as it will seriously increase the complexity of the rail adapter (which it to bolt to the top of the adapter...if it is flat this is far more simple...simple = cheap). I was faced (and still am!) with the dillema of getting everything I wanted with a per-unit price that no one could or would afford.

Without the radiusing, I am already faced with the unpleasant reality of having to charge a consumer price of approximately $110 to $140 US. Potential canadian customers are already whining about the steepness of this in a big way, and I don't blame them. Personally, I don't think I would pay more than 130$ US for the adapter, and I'm struggling to get my production run costs inline with this objective. Remember....you still have to buy a CAR style stock and the pistol grip to get something useful, and on top of it all a sighting solution will also be required for the system to reach it's full glory.

So it has become a sort of a balancing act...I've had to back down on getting everything I want in an effort to keep the manufacturing costs under control. I've only begun the process of bidding machine shops for the production run, and who knows....I could be pleasantly surprised and thus afforded the opportunity to include these two radiuses. I really want to.

Another (and contradictory) perspective to think about is the concept that this is a tool for a close quarters battle shotgun. When I think about battle, I know for sure that I definately want to have the best piece of gear possible. Nothing less will do. Cost should be irrelevent, and if I can create the most kick-ass CQB shotgun configuration out there then that is what should be done.

*sigh*...I'm a little lost trying to evaluate and balance the issues...as usual your feedback is very important to me. What are your thoughts?

Take care...

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:02:21 AM EDT
Just out of curiosity, why not cast it?

Cast AR receivers are almost as durable since it's a not stressed part and with casting, you could mould it anyway you want.

In one of your pics, you show a slight radius from the top of the adaptor to the top of the 870 with a rail. It would seem that with casting, it would be much easier to make all of the detail radius work and blend nicely.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 10:22:19 AM EDT
Casting is an excellent idea and truthfully one that I have not done a sufficient amount of homework on. Here is what I know and what I have been feeling:

There are no local foundries in my immediate vicinity and the few brief conversations I have had with foundries relatively close has led me to believe the initial capital investment would be substantial. But once you have taken the big hit, your price per unit becomes extremely reasonable. There is still a little machine time that would be required (the threading of two holes and the stamping of the pressure plate (goes between the adapter and the receiver)), but all in all if the numbers were there (quantity of pieces…we are talking in the thousands) this is definitely the way to go.

I don’t think that quality of the piece would suffer here either. My biggest psychological hurdle is trying to figure out how popular the piece would be and building up enough courage to make an initial investment in the magnitude of a couple of tens of thousands of dollars. I’m thinking that starting a little slower and using the money I have to get the whole concept (were talking the complete system…picatinny rail and all) up and running, out in the hands of the brave few who lead the way by example, and tested by the marketplace is going to be the way to go.

I’m still mulling all this over though…

Take care…

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 11:30:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 11:31:01 AM EDT by XM777]
Did you try someone like:

www.quickparts.com

who does investment casting and CNC in low volume runs?
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:51:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StonerStudent:
And for the Remington 1100/1187??!!Oh boy!!



I dont think this would work for the 1100/11-87 Remmy's. There would be no recoil system then.

OTOH, I just talked to my brother and he wants one too.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 9:35:35 PM EDT
Please make one for the FN Police. I've gotta have one
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:51:41 AM EDT
Sweet!! Brobeebiter, when we can start a group buy?! I want one and another for a mossberg.. I dont care about the finish, as im going to gunkote the thing anyway.. Keep updating us, wont ya! whoohoo I cant waitt!!
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:08:02 AM EDT
- BlackDog714 & Stoner Student: BlackDog is right...the adapter will not work with the Remington 1100/1187 due to the space required for the recoil system. I don't have either of these shotguns (yet), but if the product launch for the original AR15-870 CQB adapter is successful, I do intend on trying to make one for other shotguns. I will look at trying to come up with a solution for the 1100/1187.

- PSSMAN308 & Polyak: If I am skilled enough to turn 870 adapter into a commercially viable product, the winchester will be the next one I tackle. Looking at my cashflow projections the way they are rigged up right now, I have to sell about 3 to 3.5 hundred 870 adapter units before I would be able to get the design work and prototype fabrication for the next shotgun on the list.

As a side note: are the FN police and the standard Win 1300 identical with respect to the rear end of the receiver and how a stock bolts on?

- abri: I have not been around the whole internet forum thing very long: what is a Group Buy? How does it typically work? In anticipation of soon having a product to sell, I've built a website where people can use paypal (or send me a cheque or money order) to purchase the adapter online. I have not uploaded the site to it's eventual home (www.argonautarmament.com) yet, as I am still about a month or two from having a production run complete knowing exactly what my development & production costs were (so I can set the retail price).

Do you guys think this will be an acceptable way to do business?

-XM777: Thank you for the link. I will check that bidding process out with a fair amount of detail. I am a little leary of contracting someone where I cannot drive down to check on quality and progress, but it is not something I have ruled out yet. Before I will be able to proceed with the bid process, I have to get my 3d model and solidworks drawings updated to reflect the evolution the prototype has undergone the past few weeks. I expect to have this done by early June.

Thank you all for your input. It is an enormous help!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:45:14 PM EDT
Myself, I'm rather fine with keeping the block unradiused.. looks a lil neater, and I can see no disadvantage to leaving it that way.

If the widescale production were to become unfeasible, would you consider open-sourcing the plans?

Keep us posted!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 4:38:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BrobeeBiter:

- PSSMAN308 & Polyak: If I am skilled enough to turn 870 adapter into a commercially viable product, the winchester will be the next one I tackle. Looking at my cashflow projections the way they are rigged up right now, I have to sell about 3 to 3.5 hundred 870 adapter units before I would be able to get the design work and prototype fabrication for the next shotgun on the list.

As a side note: are the FN police and the standard Win 1300 identical with respect to the rear end of the receiver and how a stock bolts on?




BrobeeBiter, yes, the 1300 and the FN are the same, just different name on the side and a few small option differences. But as far as the stock mounting goes, identical.

300-350 units is a lot to sell, but I would imagine that is completely feesable though if advertised correctly. I would think that you could maybe work a deal out with a local gun shop in your area that may have used guns. You could maybe "borrow" a Winchester, Mossberg, Remmmy 1100, or whatever. I don't know, just a thought. I see you're in Canada, so I have no idea what's legal to do there or not.

Regardless, IT'S LOOKING FANTASTIC!!!! I look forward to seeing the finished product!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:22:16 AM EDT
Your last prototype pics look like you are ready to roll... If I were you I would look at the casting options and look at your costs. Then you would be well advised to ask for advanced orders to help you adsorb the initial cost.

Do you have any idea what this will cost now? I know a prototype is always very expensive to make but I assure you that I would love to get one just the way you have it now!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 1:40:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:16:54 PM EDT
Not trying to insult you at all, but how did you bust your lip when you had the original pistol grip stock installed???

Was it from the recoil of the slugs lifting the front upwards and bringing the receiver to your lip or what?

No flame/insult, just puzzled me.

Personally have never shot a shotgun with a grip.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:03:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EladEflow:
Not trying to insult you at all, but how did you bust your lip when you had the original pistol grip stock installed???

Was it from the recoil of the slugs lifting the front upwards and bringing the receiver to your lip or what?

No flame/insult, just puzzled me.

Personally have never shot a shotgun with a grip.




This coming from the guy that smashed his nose shooting his AR15?
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