Quoted: Quoted: Not trying to insult you at all, but how did you bust your lip when you had the original pistol grip stock installed??? Was it from the recoil of the slugs lifting the front upwards and bringing the receiver to your lip or what? No flame/insult, just puzzled me. Personally have never shot a shotgun with a grip. This coming from the guy that smashed his nose shooting his AR15?

It is nose to charging handle, not charging handle into nose.

My father manages a CNC machine shop that specializes in smaller-run jobs.  Since their business is geared toward smaller quantities, they may be able to do this inexpensively.  If you have any rough plans, I could ask him to quote the job.  I would buy one of these in a heartbeat if it was reasonably priced.

Great idea.  I love how the center of the stock is raised in line with the barrel.

Hello All!

- Patrick319 & Not_A_Llama: Patrick: your IM mailbox is full and as such, I can't send you a reply. With respect to open sourcing the plans, it is certainly something I would consider if I am not able to make them commercially myself. Heck...I might make them available regardless!

-Adrenaline Arms: I'm getting really excited with respect to the inevitable widespread availability of an AR15-870 stock adapter...whether it is the one I am working on or one from a competitor the end result will be the same in that there will be something available. The notion that people will be able to choose from a variety of systems is pretty neat. I recognize that you might not be able to answer these questions and if not, no ill-will will be harboured. You never know until you ask!

1. What material are the "other" ones made from? (kindof a dumb question if they are to be anodized, but do you know the flavor of the aluminum?)
2. How are they fabricated? Cast? Milled? Stamped/folded/welded?
3. With the rear end profile modeled after the back end of an AR15 lower, the height of the adapter must be higher than the one that I've milled out. As such, how have they addressed the geometry of mating the adapter to the curvature of the top of the shotgun receiver? Is it like the FN tactical police?
4. Can I buy one? If so, what is the anticipated price?

Edited to add:

5. What other shotguns are they available or going to be available for?

-EladEflow: How did I smack myself? If you have never handled or fired a 12 gauge shotgun equipped with a pistol grip (just the pistol grip...no shoulder mounted stock at all), it is something you should experience at least once in your life! Why? Well, for starters the cool factor is pretty damn high and everybody at the range will be impressed you are brave enough to continue after the first box or two! I'd recommend starting out with lighter trap loads though and working your way up to the higher impulse loads. My primary use for the shotgun is bear defense/bear hunting/home defense. As such, the shortness of a pistol griped shotgun was really appealing to me (especially as backup for when I am hunting bear with my longbow!). Slug is my bear load of choice and I feel like I need to be able to aim reasonably well. During my pistol grip familiarization sessions, I found the in order to aim with any semblence of precision, I had to sight directly down the barrel and acquire the bead. This required holding the shotgun up infront of my face...fine with the lighter loads, but a disaster with slug or buck. I tried shooting from the hip and expended about 500 rounds of slug trying to learn how to point it instinctually, however it seems to be a skill I have difficulty learning. For me, nothing beats being able to look down the barrel and acquire the bead.

-point_blank_sniper: I sincerely appreciate the offer. I have been a little hesitant to look at manufacturing these things outside my effective travel radius such that I cannot have a presence. This is important for me on several different levels, some of them practical, some of them emotional. I'll address some of the practical ones: being able to inspect as they are being made gives me the opportunity to avert a huge train wreck early in the game as well as the ability to exercise some quality control in the manufacturing process. Calgary is a pretty major center (for canada anyways!) and in the machining department we have some pretty good industrial infrastructure. Casting is a different story though...still doing some homework there.

Quarterbore has made the suggestion to start taking advanced orders. I'm almost at the point where I'm going to have a retail price...preliminary indications are that it will be in the $110 to $140 US range (for just the adapter, the stock and grip would also have to be purchased and a sighting system considered)...once I have this price flanged up it would theoretically be possible to start taking these advanced orders. I have a website all rigged up to use paypal and enabling it would be no problem at all. I'm curious to hear what the rest of you think about this idea. My leaning thus far has been to wait until I have a product that I can ship, however it sure would make the financing of the production run easier and I could afford to make more units at once (lower per unit cost).

As always, your collective and individual input is greatly valued.

Sincerely,

BrobeeBiter

Quoted: -EladEflow: How did I smack myself? If you have never handled or fired a 12 gauge shotgun equipped with a pistol grip (just the pistol grip...no shoulder mounted stock at all), it is something you should experience at least once in your life! Why? Well, for starters the cool factor is pretty damn high and everybody at the range will be impressed you are brave enough to continue after the first box or two! I'd recommend starting out with lighter trap loads though and working your way up to the higher impulse loads. My primary use for the shotgun is bear defense/bear hunting/home defense. As such, the shortness of a pistol griped shotgun was really appealing to me (especially as backup for when I am hunting bear with my longbow!). Slug is my bear load of choice and I feel like I need to be able to aim reasonably well. During my pistol grip familiarization sessions, I found the in order to aim with any semblence of precision, I had to sight directly down the barrel and acquire the bead. This required holding the shotgun up infront of my face...fine with the lighter loads, but a disaster with slug or buck. I tried shooting from the hip and expended about 500 rounds of slug trying to learn how to point it instinctually, however it seems to be a skill I have difficulty learning. For me, nothing beats being able to look down the barrel and acquire the bead.

Well that sue does explain a lot I was thinking you had a normal stock on it with the pistol grip also. Now that's clarified I'll explain my story

Well I have a cheap collapsible on my Pre Ban Eagle Arms and I was showing it to a friend who was messing with the little screw which I find out is some sort of tensioner. Well needless to say I take it out to shoot and instead of the rifle recoiling into my shoulder into recoiled and the stock collapsed smacking the rear sight assembly/charging handle off my nose. It was pretty painful, had quite a flinch after that experience I've got it all figured out now though

I've figured that I want a C1 buttstock instead

I am interested in seeing Brobee's final product/prototype.  This definitely has possibilities, not to mention raising the cool factor.  

Quoted: Quoted: And for the Remington 1100/1187??!!Oh boy!!

I dont think this would work for the 1100/11-87 Remmy's.  There would be no recoil system then.  

Yes the would be a problem...answer the Sage Intl Siderwider conversion!!!!

Any news?

Hmm this would seem to be real expensive/require gunsmithing, but:

Couldn't the existing spring and stuff in the back of the 1100/11-87 be rerouted to fit in the buffer tube? This would be empty anyways, because it's unneeded with a pump.

Quoted: Hmm this would seem to be real expensive/require gunsmithing, but: Couldn't the existing spring and stuff in the back of the 1100/11-87 be rerouted to fit in the buffer tube? This would be empty anyways, because it's unneeded with a pump.

I'm not sure but think the Rem 1100 recoil spring angle is to great to work in a striaght pull stock like the AR's.The Sage intl conversion moves the recoil spring into the foreand area .

Not much news to report...

I've run about 400 rounds of buck and slug through my 14 inch barreled test gun and have not had to tighten anything. There is no visible wear on either the pin or the indexing/locking hole on the buffer tube, so I think that durability will not be an issue.

I'm still waiting for the Picatinny Rail to show up...it has apparently cleared customs and is now in transit somewhere on my side of the border. *sigh* Once it gets here I shoud have the whole package together in a week or two with photographs to post.

I've monkeyed around a bit with the rail mounting system, but want to wait for the rail to get here before I go any further. I'm also about to order an ARMS #40 flip up rear sight and a Knight Armament flip up front sight (just waiting on some availability and pricing information).

Mass production of the stock adapter: the machinist who has been working on the prototype was on holidays all last week. He is back now and working on modifying the engineering drawings as well as getting his volume production pricing bid sorted out.

Albeit slowly, things are coming along!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

Thanks for the update, BrobeeBiter!

fantastic!!!!  cant wait till you have them available. tell me when to send the check.

Still waiting for a place to send my check

Sorry to keep you guys waiting so long...

I have been working on the rail system development while waiting for the draftsman to finish the adapter drawings. They are due sometime this week. So I still have to bid a bunch of machine shops and then award the initial production run to someone. I think I'm looking at a timetable of approximately mid July before I have them done...

I'll keep you all posted...

Coming soon...photographs of the complete system...rail adapter and all!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

Hello!

The stock 18 inch picatinny rail showed up from Mounting Solutions Plus last week and I've got most of the kinks worked out of the rail system. The rail will need to be 2 inches longer so I called up Ned at MSP and ordered 2 - 20 inch rails. I then finished up a prototype of the rail adapter system consisting of a barrel clamping front mount and a rear rail mount that attaches via two bolts into the stock adapter and one into a hole I drilled and tapped into the top of my 870 (gasp!).

With everything torqued up, it feels pretty solid...in fact, I was surprised at how much more solid and secure the barrel feels with the barrel clamp and rail attached. I'm anxious to see how it prints on paper! The flip up sights have not arrived yet, but have been shipped. I can't tell you guys how painful it is to always be in the "hurry up and wait!" mode...I guess patience is a virtue I need to spend more time chasing.

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/rail_prototype_I.jpg

One design issue that might merit some discussion: The geometry of the rail mounting hardware is currently such that it mounts the rail parallel to the top of the receiver. It looks to me (I have not yet empirically proved this) that the barrel of the shotgun is not parallel to the receiver. So...here is the question. Should the rail be precisely parallel to the barrel, or should there be a bit of an incliniation? If so, how much? Shot will have to travel from the barrel up to the line of sight, and I'm wondering if the sighting devices should be 100% responsible or if some of this rise should be built into the geometry of the rail mounting hardware.

As always...your feedback is highly valued!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

Wow!!  Looks great.  I'm just kind of questioning the real need for the rail to be that long, extending over the barrel like that.  I can see extending it maybe an inch or so from the reciever over the barrel, but the full length seems a bit much to me, but that's just me.

I understand why you are doing it I think, to get the front sight there, but maybe just a small rail at your clamp would do that.  I'm not sure how you would keep it straight though.

Other than that, looking FANTASTIC!! (Winchester next, Winchester next, Winchester next....lol)

It looks great! I prefer your first model without the rail though. I like the simplicity of your first prototype. And like you said, I think the gap between the rail and the barrel a bit funky, but still nice!

(No, Mossberg next!! )

Nice.

I even like the long rail.  Wonder what it looks like on a 18 or 20 in barrel?  Or can you get a rail long enough to go all the way to the end on a 20"?  

Hmmm, maybe make the bottom of the barrel end clamp be like the old military 870 clamp/bayo lug things (extended tube, bayo lug, sling attachment, etc).

Of well just rambling...

Ok....here are some of my preliminary thoughts on the rail:

As reflected in the current rail design, my original intent was to extend the rail over the barrel and have it mount just in front of the ring that locks the barrel onto the magazine tube. So on a 14 inch gun, the rail would run the whole length of the barrel, but on an 18 or 20 inch gun, the rail would run only as far as the barrel mounting ring. This served several purposes….I initially wanted a rail long enough for numerous accessories (back up irons, a CQB sight, and room for a NV device), and clamping anything to the barrel before the locking ring presents all kinds of design challenges (primarily associated with the pump action). Clamping the mount up front was certainly the most convenient.

I know that there will be some people who do not want/like the full-length rail, so I intend to manufacture one that only runs the length of the receiver. This will make things a little more finicky if you wish to rig up some sort of iron sights, but retain some of the esthetics of a more simple system if irons are not required.

There are however some benefits to the full length rail that I did not pre-meditate. It is my opinion that the largest weakness of the 870 is the system by which the barrel locks to the receiver. I have seen (and experienced) the magazine tube nut loosening under the stress of sustained firing. This is bad for many reasons, one being that the barrel is then not firmly seated in the receiver and it can then develop a lot of lateral and vertical play. If your sighting system is mounted to your receiver (ie…my holosight), it is not the most accurate system in the world. If you are using your front bead, it better, but accuracy still suffers. Here comes the good part about the full-length rail system: with everything torqued up on the front-clamp rail mounting system, the barrel is ROCK SOLID. I got out to the range yesterday and ran 75 rounds of slug and another 100 rounds of buckshot through the gun to test drive the rail system. I had a hard time wiping the grin off my face…the rail improved the accuracy of my gun with slugs an order of magnitude: From a standing unsupported position, I was able to easily print 5 round 2 inch (ie: one big hole) groups at 25 yards.

I still have to do a little science project work on determining the optimum angle of elevation for the rail. I had no trouble zeroing my holosight yesterday, but I don't know that I can move it indiscriminately up and down the rail with no zero change…I'll do the experiment sometime soon and report the results back!

Take care…

BrobeeBiter

Wouldn't you have to unclamp (and lose your zero) to take apart the gun?

Quoted: Wouldn't you have to unclamp (and lose your zero) to take apart the gun?

One could always use an ARMS plate for return-to-zero mounting.

Hello All!

Some progress to report:

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/prototype_III.jpg

Modifications include:

- rail length increased from 18 inches to 20 inches.

- rear and front rail adapter geometry modified to lower rail...rail geometry modified to change line of sight angle and rail thickness.

It shoots like a dream. An ARMS #40 flip up rear sight and a KAS flip up front sight arrived from Sableco.net last week and were quickly installed onto the test gun. They co-witness perfectly with my EOTech.

I've been working with the draftsman to capture this evolutionary process, and have bid many machine shops. They are all looking to very expensive to do a full production run.

I've started looking at casting options...sand casting is the cheapest, but the more I learn about this casting method the more I think it might be a gamble in the quality department. So I'm putting most of my investigative work towards bidding companies that specialize in aluminum investment casting. The up-front capital cost is significantly higher, but they can cast things down to 0.005 inch type tolerances.

Your thoughts on the casting process?

Sniper_Wolfe: To disassemble the shotgun, the rail would be removed from the front rail mount by removing one cap screw. This leaves the front rail mount firmly clamped to the barrel. I have done this several times and experienced a hold to zero when the gun was re-assembled. I'm pretty excited about that!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

Nice work BrobeeBiter!  The rail looks much improved, with the lower mounting and all.  I like the rail now!!

Sorry, nothing to add on your casting dilema, don't know enough about it.  But I hope you find a reasonable method soon.

As far as the worry of loss of zero with the rail upon disassembly... I'm not sure it could really matter much anyway.  A CQB style shotgun, say 14"-18", is probably going to be shooting more like 50 to 75 yards at absolute max I would think.  I don't think in that short of distance the POI would change very much at all over many disassemblies and reassemblies.


Looking good, BrobeeBiter.  Now, just hurry up every chance you get

Hey Wave how do you like the ported barrel? How much flash in low light?

Uh oh boys.....



www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=61&t=140700

Hello All!

*sigh*...they say that imitation is the best for of flattery one could hope for! For me, the evidence that an AR15 style stock on a Remington 870 is a pretty cool setup grows stronger and stronger as each day passes....

Let's not forget where the idea came from...the boys over at FN with their Winchester 1300 modification/Tactical Police Shotgun.

I will be extremely interested to watch how Calvary Arms and Sinistral Shooting Technologies address the iron sights aspect...

The FNG: I don't think this is an "uh oh", in fact, quite the opposite. With other manufacturers getting in to the picture, the bar can only be raised with respect to the quality of the product and the price can only come down. All good things for the end consumer!

Wave: Ported barrel question: the front rail adapter and rail is designed to clamp onto the barrel just infront of the barrel's magtube lug. If your shotgun has a 14 inch ported barrel, the clamp would interfere with the porting. If you have an 18.5 inch barrel or longer, it should not be an issue.

Just a side comment: with the stock almost directly in line with the barrel, I would question the need for the ported barrel system. The gun recoil charracteristics are greatly changed, and there is very little mizzle rise.

Production Schedule Update: Foundry investigation is going well. I'm currently targeting mid August for widespread availability of the stock adapter and the rail accessories will follow shortly!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[:\] [:\]

Hello All!

I rigged up an 18.5 inch gun to photograph...the prototype guns are going into get powder coated later on this week and I should have some even splashier pictures then!

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/14_inch_and_18_inch_guns.jpg

2nd round of bids on casting the adapters and machining the rail mounts/rails are all coming in and looking to be reasonable. I'll keep you all posted!

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

so, do you have an idea of about what the pre-production items will run yet? Not that you're being pressured or anything, lol.


But you continue to amaze me with your work. Outstanding job.

Hrrrm.. the Cavarms patent might be problematic, but you could probably make a prior-use argument. Still, it's nice to see how this project is progressing.

Wipeout: My pre-production parts are scarce and precious to me...I'm not sure I could part with them. Production is scheduled for July with delivery in Mid to late August.

Not_A_Llama: I've done a couple of patent searches looking for intellectual property I might be infringing on (including but not limited to Calvary Arms's device) and I have been unable to unearth anything more relevant than the patent for ATI's stock adapters. Does anyone know their patent #?

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

Quoted: ....you continue to amaze me with your work. Outstanding job.

My thoughts exactly!  

I'm getting pretty excited too...:)

As things sit right now, I see no reason why I should not be able to make my retail price goal of $110 for the adapter. I'm still working on pricing for the rear rail adapter, front rail adapter, and full length rail...the full length rail will not be cheap however a rear rail that runs only the length of the receiver should not be too bad.

I'm a little concerned about the whole intellecutal property thing, however have been made to feel a bit better by the several patent lawyers I've been in discussion with. My worries stem not from trying to shut down other people from building their versions of the adapter; exactly the opposite: someone prohibiting me from selling the adapters that I am manufacturing. My lawyers and I believe that I (and the public domain) have a legitimite claim with respect to the development process you have all helped me out with here, however engaging in formal conflict to defend that position can get ugly and expensive (for all parties involved) relatively quickly.

I would way rather proceed under the spirit of community, friendly competition and notion that the pond is big enough for everyone to succeed. I have been considering correspondance to this effect with the Calvary Arms/SST gentlemen as well as other potential competitors I have identified to try and understand both their intent and commitment and communicate my own...

As always, your thoughts and input are highly valued.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

$110, is that after the import taxes? who is going to be the US importor? this is a Gun part so aren't you going to have to use a Licsensed Importor for getting the adaptors into the US.

is the $110 in US of CAnadian currency?

little223shooter: I am still doing my homework on the international import/export rules (so much for free trade, eh?) that exist between our two countries and as such, unfortunately am unable to answer your question right now. I will post an answer as soon as I have one...

Some irony to add to the mix...they are actually going to be manufactured in the US. I awarded the fabricating contract for the first big batch to a US precision investment casting company. If the export rules become a barrier of consequence, one thing I will investigate is shipping FOB a US address.

Wipeout: My retail target price is between 100 and 115$ US.

A general update: As mentionned above, the initial manufacturing bid has been awarded and they are currently manufacturing the required tooling for mass production. This is expected to take approximately three weeks, upon which they will send me a couple of units created from the master tools to check up on quality control. Once this is out of the way, I have been told that it will take around another three weeks to complete the manufacturing run.

As always, I'll do my absolute best to keep you all posted with my progress!

Take care and thanks for your continued contribution...

BrobeeBiter

look forward to hearing what you find out.....but if they are being made here in the US...and you have them sent to you...aren't you now importing Gun parts into canada? Wont your manufacturer have to have a state (and maybe BATF) import/export liscense for gun parts? this sounds like you might be in for a import/export nightmare.....

edited to add.....FOB ship to US address???? not sure what you mean here....are you saying that if the import/export thing is a problem, you will just ship directly to people and break the law, avoid possible US taxes and let the buyer beware that they could also get into trouble?

On the whole making gun parts:  Are ALL gun accessories (slings, holsters, stocks, lights, adapters, etc.) subject to the same taxes/regulations as regulated items*?   Brobeebiter is not making a firearm, barrel or magazine, so he may not have to deal with all the BS that many are expecting.  If I had to fill out a 4473 to buy one of these, then I'd be worried about taxes/licensing/etc.

As for producing in the US/shipping FOB:  Why is that necessarily illegal?  Import tarriffs/taxes are usually a "penalty" for using foreign manufacturing.  If the product is made here in the U.S and shipped to a U.S. address, there won't be any taxes or tarriffs required. IF the BATF requires some sort of production tax, Brobee can pay it when the pieces are manufactured and ship FOB without any problems.  He may also be required to pay a fee for a "foreign corporation doing business."  Overall, not a big deal.

So far it seems as if BrobeeBiter has kept a level head and covered all of his bases. (Checking with the patent lawyers, doing a multiple facility production bid, etc.)  I have no doubt that, by the time the product is ready for market, Brobee will have dotted his I's and crossed his T's.  Until then, why worry.  Let his lawyers do that - they're paid for it.

Edited to add:  I'm asking the above question in all seriousness.  I'd love to hear from someone involved in the manufacture/sale of accessories.

Don't get my post wrong. He has been doing alot of research into this. I don't want to see him get into any legal problems with import/export stuff, at the same time I dont want to leave myself open to problems also. I was just wondering if he had even realized about that side of this.

This item is not regulated like a resistered firearms persay. no 4473s required. But, it is a GUN part. We are talking US Gov't and BATF here. There are some restrictions, guide lines, taxations on gun parts imported from outside the US. exactly what they are and/or how tough they are, I dont know. I know I have heard of some companies having problems with "Parts" kits that they are trying to get imported....

Uhhh ohhh....someone got beat to market. And he's got distributors already in place. Plan B?

http://www.full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006075;p=1

Quoted: Uhhh ohhh....someone got beat to market. And he's got distributors already in place. Plan B? http://www.full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006075;p=1

Please read the thread before posting.

We're all aware of this.

Hello!

I agree, friendly competition is good. And thus far it has been friendly. SinistralRifleman has not made many references to my project, however the ones he has have not been mean spirited. Having made my own significant investment in time, money, and emotional capital the past several months, I can empathize first hand with some of the things I think he might be experiencing right now. I sincerely wish him the best of luck and the good fortune to see his product become a success.

Again, I really believe that friendly competition is good.

Update: 3 weeks and counting for tooling to be complete and "proofs" to be sent to me for quality control sign off on the mass production methodology.

Take care, and thank you all for your support.

BrobeeBiter