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Posted: 4/3/2006 4:28:56 PM EDT
The Hardware
* Kimber TLE Custom II RL, external extractor, link, straight from the box
* Picked it up two months ago
* 600-800'ish rounds through it
* Factory original 7-round mag and two Chip McCormick Shooting Star 8-round mags


The Software
* 230 gn jacketed ball on top of 6.5 gn Viht. N340
* Works great in other 1911's and my HK USPT 45


The Symptoms
* Once in a while, I'll get a round that has a failure to feed, nosing up into the chamber diagonally. This happened twice on Saturday, double the worst rate before.
* On Saturday, I had four instances when the second from last round would pop up, nosed *down* into the chamber. The last round would push it up. The last round would be pushed by the boltface of the slide, pinched against the second to last round which is diagonally nosed down into the chamber, causing a hard jam-up.
* That was the first time I'd seen anything like it.
* Happened twice with me, and once with each of two other shooters.
* I ran out of ammo before I could narrow it down to bad gun or bad mags, but it happened with both the factory Kimber 7 and one or both of the two S.Stars
* Did not happen with my mags in a friend's Kimber 1911, but that was only two mags' worth


The Wild Guesses
* It looks like the second to last round is being swatted forward insted of being grabbed for controlled feed into the chamber. At least for the nose-down error.
* It could also be just popping up out of the mag, caught by upper chamber lip instead of sproinging out of the gun entirely.

So, what does this sound like to y'all?

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:46:50 PM EDT
Sounds like it's time to buy some more mags.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:40:57 PM EDT
Extractor problem. Seen a bunch of these with the external extractor.

Charles the Gunsmith.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 10:16:12 PM EDT
Are your mags numbered/marked so you can tell them apart? Example, if the problem is always with mag #4, you can take #4 out of the rotation. I use such mags for dry practice.

Try some Wilson 8 or 7 round mags

What the OAL you are using for your handloads? Should be 1.250" +/- .005", with a taper crimp of .467" to .472"

I agree with Charles, the most likely cause is the extractor. The above suggestions may work if it isn't the extractor. Kimber has had a lot of problems trying to get it right.

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 1:52:28 AM EDT
Mags are not numbered, but I can tell my Kimber-stamped mag from the Chip McCormicks. I have one Kimber and two Chip's. It happened with the Kimber and one or both Chip's... wasn't able to tell one Chip's from the other, but I can mark the two of them for next time.

I didn't note the specific OAL of my load -- I get the seating to be just underneath max, and then check them in a gage. Next time I sit down to load, I can get a specific number and variance range.

So... what's the deal with the extractors, then? I'm aware that there's some difference between them, and heard that there are "some problems", but I haven't heard what.

What's the fix for this sort of extractor problems? Any conclusive way I can test to tell that's what it is? Any reason this would happen four times in one session, having never happen in the first 4 or 5 sessions?



Thanks for the help!
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:48:10 AM EDT
The extractor problem contributes a great deal to feeding problems. The cartridge case must slide up the breech face from the magazine. Anything that inhibits this sliding upward motion, such as the extractor, will cause feeding problems.

The extractor can be poorly shaped and stop the cartridge case from sliding up. It can also be poorly fitted or have improper tension and cause the same problem. In my experience the external extractor from Kimber is a real problem.

IM if any questions.

Charles.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:01:58 PM EDT
So, I"m getting the "call Kimber & send it back" vibe here...
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:05:12 PM EDT
Sending it back to Kimber would be an option. I would also inquire of Kimber if they will replace the slide with one that has an internal extractor. The internal extractor models have a much lower rate of failure.

Charles.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 10:39:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 10:42:53 PM EDT by toqueville]
Having been one of the other shooters that saw this happen firsthand, I don't see how the doublefeed could be an extractor issue. The symptom appears to be the #7 round popping out of the mag's feed lips as the slide recoils back as the number 8 round shifts up to be caught as the slide rolls forward. #7 and #8 both are trying to head into the chamber at this point and we're left scratching our heads as to how that happened.

The first ftfeed was odd, but looked more like a weak mag spring or a short cycle(rim on round #8 looked like it didn't get caught by the slide going forward so it was pressed down into the mag at an odd angle, hence why it looked to me like a weak mag spring). I'm guessing that could be an extractor issue if the round is being pushed down instead of sliding up the face like it should. I'll see if I can't get him to take it out and give it a once over in some good light and see if the extractor is way out of tune or wierd in some way(*edit* well wierder than having one of those strange Kimber external extractors anyway).
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:40:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 10:21:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
Charles completely understands how the 1911 functions and the way it feeds is different from alot of other pistols. When I was teaching myself to smith the 1911 it took me a long time and a couple of ruined pistols before I truly understood what was going on as the gun cycles. There is really alot going on in there.



I don't doubt Charle's credentials. To be honest I'm in the book learning phase of teaching myself the 1911 (my first flip through Kuhnhausen's books convinced me that I'm going to be in this phase for quite some time, since as you phrased it "There is really alot going on in there") and was hoping for some more in depth 'splaining from a master. My initial scan through Kuhnhausen on the double feed pointed me at a feed lip problem with the mag, but if I'm off in left field I really could use some pointers on where my understanding is falling short. My instinct tells me that the mags aren't really the problem, but I couldn't explain why I feel that way.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 1:29:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 1:35:22 PM EDT by -Duke-Nukem-]
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 10:49:19 AM EDT
Thanks Duke. Lots of info to mull over.
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