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Posted: 2/11/2006 7:29:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 5:35:27 AM EDT by XSentinel]
Please forgive me for beating a dead horse here but for safety's sake I want to be 100% sure about all the factors before I decide what I want to do. I don't want there to be anything that I am not aware of or leaving out so I can make an informed decision.

The below is from a safety stand point only. I realize that from a tactical stand point carrying cocked & locked is an advantage. Also the below assumes that one would want to carry both cocked & locked and hammer down at different times and wants to know that differences to both.

This is what I have so far. Please tell me if I am right or wrong here.
All of the below are assuming that the gun in question has a live round in the chamber and assuming that all parts are working as they should and finger is off the trigger.

1. If the gun is hammer down AND the safety is ON the gun will not AD, regardless of series 70 or 80, even if dropped or struck.

2. If the gun is cocked & locked (with safety on) the gun will not AD regardless of series 70 or 80 even if dropped or struck.

3. If the gun is hammer down with safety OFF then a series 70 has a possibility of an AD if dropped or stuck however unlikely BUT a series 80 will still not AD due to the firing pin block.

If the above is correct then:
1. If you have a series 80 pistol you can safely carry either cocked & locked (safety on) OR hammer down (safety on OR off) safely.

2. If you have a series 70 pistol then you can safely carry cocked & locked (safety on) OR hammer down safety ON only. Hammer down safety off would be the only possible AD situation however unlikely.

If accurate then the only difference in carry options between the two would be for someone that wished to carry with the hammer down and safety off in which a series 80 would be a better choice. And if one were seeking safety then why would one want to carry with safety off? You wouldn't, so a series 70 should be just as safe for such a person since the safety would always be on anyway.

Am I close?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:37:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
Please forgive me for beating a dead horse here but for safety's sake I want to be 100% sure about all the factors before I decide what I want to do. I don't want there to be anything that I am not aware of or leaving out so I can make an informed decision.

The below is from a safety stand point only. I realize that from a tactical stand point carrying cocked & locked is an advantage. Also the below assumes that one would want to carry both cocked & locked and hammer down at different times and wants to know that differences to both.

This is what I have so far. Please tell me if I am right or wrong here.
All of the below are assuming that the gun in question has a live round in the chamber and assuming that all parts are working as they should and finger is off the trigger.

1. If the gun is hammer down AND the safety is ON the gun will not AD, regardless of series 70 or 80, even if dropped or struck. Wrong. With the hammer down, the safety can not be put on. Furthermore, the 70 Series has nothing to prevent the firing pin from moving forward and since you have the hammer resting on the firing pin, a blow to the back of the hammer could fire the gun.

2. If the gun is cocked & locked (with safety on) the gun will not AD regardless of series 70 or 80 even if dropped or struck. Correct, although, in theory, if you dropped the 70 on its muzzle, there might be enough intertia to allow the firing pin enough force to ignite the primer. This is only a theory and I have never heard of it happening.

3. If the gun is hammer down with safety OFF then a series 70 has a possibility of an AD if dropped or stuck however unlikely BUT a series 80 will still not AD due to the firing pin block. Correct

If the above is correct then:
1. If you have a series 80 pistol you can safely carry either cocked & locked (safety on) OR hammer down (safety on OR off) safely. correct

2. If you have a series 70 pistol then you can safely carry cocked & locked (safety on) OR hammer down safety ON only. Hammer down safety off would be the only possible AD situation however unlikely. Bad premise. See number 1 above. You can't have the safety on with the hammer down.

If accurate then the only difference in carry options between the two would be for someone that wished to carry with the hammer down and safety off in which a series 80 would be a better choice. And if one were seeking safety then why would one want to carry with safety off? You wouldn't, so a series 70 should be just as safe for such a person since the safety would always be on anyway.

Am I close?



No. Hammer down on either defeats one of the safeties and that is the "half cock" notch on the hammer. This is designed to catch the hammer if it were to fall without the trigger being pulled. There is just no reason to ever have the hammer down on a live round... ever.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:43:18 AM EDT
If the thought of carrying cocked and locked bothers you that much, why even bother with a 1911? Look into something you can carry decocked with a round in the chamber, like a Sig 220.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:17:41 AM EDT
C&L is perfectly safe.

Just think of it as a Glock with a manual safety and a grip safety, and with better ergonomics.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:25:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By a38337:
C&L is perfectly safe.

Just think of it as a Glock with a manual safety and a grip safety, and with better ergonomics.




And wont Kaboom on ya
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:06:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stasher1:
If the thought of carrying cocked and locked bothers you that much, why even bother with a 1911? Look into something you can carry decocked with a round in the chamber, like a Sig 220.



+1..if that bothers you..don't do it. Get a 220, 245 or an similar sidearm.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:43:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stasher1:
If the thought of carrying cocked and locked bothers you that much, why even bother with a 1911? Look into something you can carry decocked with a round in the chamber, like a Sig 220.

I do have quite a few other guns that I carry all the time. I collect though, and I want a 1911 for my collection. What collection is complete without one ;). And if I own something I would like to be able to carry it once in a while. Although I admit I will probably not carry it often, but when I do I would like to know the in's and out's of it so I can be as as knowledgeable as possible. I'm sure everyone here can appreciate that.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:47:00 AM EDT
You sound apprehensive and tentative about carrying a 1911 Cocked and locked. I agree with the others, carry a Sig 220 or something else. A 1911 isn't for you.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:48:29 AM EDT
cliffy109,
Thanks for that answer.
So you are saying that in both the series 70 and 80 you can not put the safety on while the hammer is down? Or just the series 70?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:51:51 AM EDT
Moses designed it to be carried cocked and locked.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:53:47 AM EDT
carried cocked and locked
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:54:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 11:54:45 AM EDT by XSentinel]
M4arc,
No, I'm not apprehensive about carrying a 1911. I am apprehensive about carrying something that I do not fully understand. That is why I am here. I want to get a better understanding of it. Doesn't that sound like an intelligent thing to do before using something? Or should I just go with the crowd and not ask and just do something because everyone else is doing it?

I thought the purpose of forums such as these is to exchange ideas and get information from people that have experience in something. I am not asking anyone to make a decision for me. I asking people to give me the benefit of their knowledge so I can make a decision for myself. Isn't that always the best course of action? Isn't that what forums are about? I'm sorry that I am not one of those people that come here for 2 seconds and ask what "is best", takes the first few posts as gospel and then goes away never to return. I like to know why.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 12:04:28 PM EDT
Lowering the hammer on a 1911 with a live round chambered is a recipe for a negligent discharge.

You have to depress the grip safety and pull the trigger to allow the sear to release the hammer hooks, you accidently drop the hammer while trying to lower it and it's gonna go "BANG" series 70/80 or anything else.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 12:05:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
cliffy109,
Thanks for that answer.
So you are saying that in both the series 70 and 80 you can not put the safety on while the hammer is down? Or just the series 70?



Neither one allows the safety to be engaged when the hammer is down.

I'll put this a bit more delicately than the others because I respect what you're learning curve is, but you really need to abandon the thought of hammer down carry. In the case of the 70 Series, its just unsafe. In the case of the 80 series, its unnecessary. If you are concerned about the safety of having a cocked and locked handgun, you really should consider other guns. If you are uncomfortable with cocked and locked but are committed to the 1911, I suggest going with an empty chamber. I'm not a fan of this, but its safer than hammer down.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 12:19:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 12:21:10 PM EDT by XSentinel]
I appreciate your answer and the explanation. But really ... guys ... I am not uncomfortable with anything .... really. I am just asking why. Really. Is that so odd around here? Do most posters just do as they are told? I appreciate your all telling me what to do but I really just want to know why. I don't think it is a secret right? I mean I am just trying to get an understanding of how this operates and why things work the way they do. I would have thought that in a place like this people would be writing long posts explaining the inner workings of this thing that I would have to read through the answer. Instead I have found just the opposite. With the exception of one everyone seems to be wanting to just give me a quick 2 second brush off.

I am trying to learn what happens and why when these guns are placed in different stages of readiness. I think by getting a proper understanding of how these parts interact one is a safer gun handler. If some of you can help me get that understanding it is greatly appreciated.

As far as cocked & locked goes ... I get it. It is the preferred carry option. I got that before I even posted by reading the numerous other posts from numerous other threads. But I still like to know why and how the parts interact though especially with regards to the different series and none of the other threads went into that in detail.

cliffy109 has made it clear that the point is moot since one CAN NOT carry with the hammer down with the safety on since it will NOT go on if the hammer is down. As such by doing so you have just by passed any safety the gun had. And 1911a1_45acp brings up a very good point about how are you going to get that hammer down in the first place? A risky maneuver and more likely where your AD will occur.

Thanks for the info guys. I think I have a much better understanding of the situation now with regards to the parts and how they are intended to function.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 1:12:55 PM EDT
When I carry one of my 1911's its always Cocked and Locked.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 1:48:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 2:39:16 PM EDT by BillofRights]
I for one, appreciate your question, since I have never fully understood the warnings against hammer down carry on series 80 1911's.

The risk of a ND during the lowering of the hammer cannot be ignored, and is a very valid reason against.

Viewing video of actual shootouts is probably gives the best reasons. They often occur at faster than the speed of thought. The odds of forgeting to pull back the hammer, or having your finger slip while pulling it back are great.

I have had the thumb safety bump off inadvertently while carrying, so C&L carry does need to be approached with caution. However, it is the best option. There is no substitute to having a gun in action RIGHT NOW should you need it.

Empty Chamber, Hammer Down, is also a legitamate option if you practice it, and feel that you will have the time, training and ability to rack the slide should you need it. It offers reduced risk of a ND, and a extra few seconds if your gun is snatched.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 2:20:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911a1_45acp:
Lowering the hammer on a 1911 with a live round chambered is a recipe for a negligent discharge.

You have to depress the grip safety and pull the trigger to allow the sear to release the hammer hooks, you accidently drop the hammer while trying to lower it and it's gonna go "BANG" series 70/80 or anything else.



+1

I thought I was the only one who was paranoid as hell to lower the hammer with a round in the chamber.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 2:39:58 PM EDT
THe 1911 was designed to be carried C&L. The only time the hammer should fall is when pulling the trigger to fire a round or dropping the mag ejecting the live round (ensure gun is empty) and then dry fire practice if you wish. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 3:40:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
cliffy109,
Thanks for that answer.
So you are saying that in both the series 70 and 80 you can not put the safety on while the hammer is down? Or just the series 70?



Neither one allows the safety to be engaged when the hammer is down.

I'll put this a bit more delicately than the others because I respect what you're learning curve is, but you really need to abandon the thought of hammer down carry. In the case of the 70 Series, its just unsafe. In the case of the 80 series, its unnecessary. If you are concerned about the safety of having a cocked and locked handgun, you really should consider other guns. If you are uncomfortable with cocked and locked but are committed to the 1911, I suggest going with an empty chamber. I'm not a fan of this, but its safer than hammer down.



It's just as unsafe in the Series 80 as you have to pull the trigger to drop the hammer, which disables the firing pin safety.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:49:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stasher1:
It's just as unsafe in the Series 80 as you have to pull the trigger to drop the hammer, which disables the firing pin safety.



In terms of safely lowering the hammer, you are correct. I was talking about once the hammer is down. With the Series 80, you do have a firing pin block which would prevent a discharge if the gun were dropped on its hammer.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:58:29 PM EDT
Cocked and locked or get something else.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 10:13:39 PM EDT
Cocked and locked or get something else.

+1
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 10:30:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
Cocked and locked or get something else.

+1



+2--there is nothing else
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:27:59 AM EDT
Son, druged up and armed is no way to go through life, ummmmkay?
Seriously, condition one is the only way to fly with an SA 1911.


Coked & Locked or hammer down?


Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:31:01 AM EDT
Does anyone anywhere have any first haad knowledge of a 1911 going off by being droped hammer down with a round in the chamber? Personally I don't think it can happen.


Originally Posted By cliffy109:
With the Series 80, you do have a firing pin block which would prevent a discharge if the gun were dropped on its hammer.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:08:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:08:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Son, druged up and armed is no way to go through life, ummmmkay?
Seriously, condition one is the only way to fly with an SA 1911.


Coked & Locked or hammer down?





Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:28:57 AM EDT
My gunsmith told me NEVER carry a 1911 with the hammer down if there's a round in the chamber.

I'm feel completely safe with it C&L. The only time I ever have the hammer down and safety off is when I'm shooting or if I'm transporting it UNLOADED.

If you really want to carry it with the hammer down, and still want a 1911, consider getting a ParaOrdinance LDA or something like that that can be fired DA.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:39:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Krackels:
My gunsmith told me NEVER carry a 1911 with the hammer down if there's a round in the chamber.

I'm feel completely safe with it C&L. The only time I ever have the hammer down and safety off is when I'm shooting or if I'm transporting it UNLOADED.

If you really want to carry it with the hammer down, and still want a 1911, consider getting a ParaOrdinance LDA or something like that that can be fired DA.

I never said I WANT to. I was asking what different ways to carry there are and why people chose them and what happens inside the gun during the different types of carry that would lead people to choose that method.

This thread is getting really good with a lot of info. Thanks all for contributing. It is very interesting.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:54:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 6:04:11 PM EDT by XSentinel]

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Does anyone anywhere have any first haad knowledge of a 1911 going off by being droped hammer down with a round in the chamber? Personally I don't think it can happen.


Originally Posted By cliffy109:
With the Series 80, you do have a firing pin block which would prevent a discharge if the gun were dropped on its hammer.


I have never heard of it but from examining the workings here it would seem that in a series 70 pistol if the hammer is struck hard enough it could, in theory, strike the firing pin with enough force to cause a discharge. But it would probably take a heck of a lot of force and it would probably have to hit just right.

I think the fear of AD with this particular design is not so much dropping as I jump any time any loaded gun is dropped regardless of design because you just never know and a bullet in your ankle would really ruin your day ;). I think it is more the concern that while holstered and C&L if it is bumped that somehow the hammer could drop causing an AD.

If I've got it right (and I don't know that I do) then that fear is not justified because there are three things that keep that from happening...
1. The full cock notch and if that fails the half cock notch will catch it.
2. The safety has to be off.
3. The grip safety has to be pressed.

#3 seems to be the most difficult to overcome in my opinion because if the gun is holstered it would seem pretty difficult for the grip safety to be pressed in. Am I correct in assuming that the hammer cannot drop unless the grip safety if pressed? If so then it would seem highly unlikely that a 1911 carried C&L could ever go off in your holster when bumped regardless of how hard it is bumped unless that bumping knocked the safety off AND pressed the grip safety AND then was hard enough t cause the hammer to break free of the half cock notch. That bump would be pretty extensive and probably cause you more damage than the gun shot.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:05:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:

Originally Posted By Krackels:
My gunsmith told me NEVER carry a 1911 with the hammer down if there's a round in the chamber.

I'm feel completely safe with it C&L. The only time I ever have the hammer down and safety off is when I'm shooting or if I'm transporting it UNLOADED.

If you really want to carry it with the hammer down, and still want a 1911, consider getting a ParaOrdinance LDA or something like that that can be fired DA.

I never said I WANT to. I was asking what different ways to carry there are and why people chose them and what happens inside the gun during the different types of carry that would lead people to choose that method.

This thread is getting really good with a lot of info. Thanks all for contributing. It is very interesting.



ohhhh. . . . in that case I can't say anything that hasn't been already said. BTW, my gunsmith also say that the .mil used to/still does? carry a 1911 with hammer down and no round in the chamber. I don't know if he was just running his flap or what.

Sounded domb
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:38:50 AM EDT
C&L
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:22:02 AM EDT
I haven't shot myself yet....Cock and lock.........
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:42:44 PM EDT
Cocked and locked.
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