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Posted: 2/7/2006 8:13:59 AM EDT
I'm hoping to revive some old discussion with this one. Who has had problems with the Kimber external extractor, and is it limited to certain models? Most importantly, why does it suck? I've seen posts blasting this setup but nobody says why. I did a search over the last 30 days for "Kimber extractor" and only came up with the following post: Kimber Extractor Problem (Big Surprise Eh? Picture Inside). I hate to form an opinion because of one lemon in an otherwise goodhat
I've been eyeing the TLEII stainless model but am afraid of buying one now. hat
Give me a good reason why I shouldn't buy a Kimber w/ external. If nobody answers me, I'll go ahead and buy one, then take every opportunity I can to cuss you all out on the forums when it fails. Yes, thats right. You will all be responsible!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:35:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By beavegun:
It seems to me that an external extractor would be a good upgrade for the 1911 - most newer designs (Glock, SIG, HK) use it. hr


Blasphemer!!!!111!

In reality there is nothing wrong with an external extractor in terms of function, however it is not for a 1911. It is a device to save manufacturers money. It is like putting a nose-ring on the mona lisa.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:47:53 AM EDT
Go read the kimber forum, and the kimber forum on www.1911forum.com and you'll see that I'm not the only person with problems with the external extractor.

Thats not to say that I don't like my kimber, because I do. It just needs to work right :(
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:56:49 AM EDT

Blasphemer!!!!111!

In reality there is nothing wrong with an external extractor in terms of function, however it is not for a 1911. It is a device to save manufacturers money. It is like putting a nose-ring on the mona lisa.



Oh, come on! If the 1911 with external extractor is a Mona Lisa with a nose ring, then the AR-15 is "The David" with nipple rings, a Prince Albert and a@@less chaps! A desing from the 50s has been modified dozens upon dozens of times. Nothing is sacred! The basic 1911, almost 100 years old, gets an external extractor and Jeff Cooperites worldwide begin frothing at the mouth!

Good point about cost savings though. I didn't think of that. No offense to the great Cooper but is this what all the hoopla's about? I'm still gonna buy one unless somebody gives me a good reason. DON"T MAKE ME BITTER!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:09:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
Go read the kimber forum, and the kimber forum on www.1911forum.com and you'll see that I'm not the only person with problems with the external extractor.

Thats not to say that I don't like my kimber, because I do. It just needs to work right :(



Thanks for the link! That's a better answer than, "Gee paw, it just don't look right!" I checked the poll on that site related to external extractors and it appears you ain't the only one with problems. To summarize, the poll showed that with full-size models one out of two hundred-odd pollsters were unhappy with internal extractors whereas over a dozen out of 100-odd polsters were unhappy with the external ones. I'd say there may be a problem there. If I buy one and it doesn't work right, you're off the hook CastorTroy! I won't cuss you out, cause you said, "I told you so!" Because of you, I'm having second thoughts.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:14:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 9:15:35 AM EDT by Evil_Ed]

Originally Posted By beavegun:
I've been eyeing the TLEII stainless model but am afraid of buying one now. It seems to me that an external extractor would be a good upgrade for the 1911 - most newer designs (Glock, SIG, HK) use it.



Sigs and HK's use internal extractors

Different design than JMB's internal one, but internal none the less..

Edited cause I r teh suk at teh tpying
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:37:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:

Originally Posted By beavegun:
I've been eyeing the TLEII stainless model but am afraid of buying one now. hatSIG, HK) use it.



Sigs and HK's use internal extractors han
Edited cause I r teh suk at teh tpying



I'm looking at my USP Compact as we speak and it appears to be external. hinking.gifIf memory serves, so does my P220. Maybe I'm missing something here. I'm not sure what JMB means. I thought an easy way to tell if an extractor is external is by looking at the slide. I thought it was external if visible from outside. Can you educate me?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:40:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By beavegun:

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:

Originally Posted By beavegun:
I've been eyeing the TLEII stainless model but am afraid of buying one now. It seems to me that an external extractor would be a good upgrade for the 1911 - most newer designs (Glock, SIG, HK) use it.



Sigs and HK's use internal extractors

Different design than JMB's internal one, but internal none the less..

Edited cause I r teh suk at teh tpying



I'm looking at my USP Compact as we speak and it appears to be external. If memory serves, so does my P220. Maybe I'm missing something here. I'm not sure what JMB means. I thought an easy way to tell if an extractor is external is by looking at the slide. I thought it was external if visible from outside. Can you educate me?



ERK! You're right, I was thinking Sig and for some reason my brain lumped HK in there. NEver mind, not HK...

My 228 does have an internal extractor, though. So does my XD...

JMB = John Moses Browning
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:06:47 AM EDT
The external extractor works in many other designs a 1911 just does not seem to be one of them.
Kimber is even going back to the old style as they have realize this.

A dozen or so out of 100 complain... That is over 10%, sorry WAY too many for my taste. It should be 1 out of 1000.

1911forums is a great resource for help there.

Take your time, do your research and you will find something really nice.

Look for an older pre sereis II Kimber.
I just sold my last Kimber but never really had a problem with it (it was pre series II CDP Compact)
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:49:57 PM EDT
Kimber thought they could MIM their extractors instead of using good quality, hand tuned internal pieces at a higher labor price. What they got was a POS, with maybe half of the pistols not developing serious trouble within a few cases of ammo.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:46:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:59:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
The Kimber designed external extractor was a bad design, S&W and Dan Wesson both make external extractor 1911s that run fine.

Now having said that If John Moses Browning had wanted to you to have an external extractor he would have told you so



I suspect that if they had used a long arm with the pivot point in the rear it would work well.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:08:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 2:08:23 PM EDT by cnatra]
what pistols besides 1911's use internal extractors ??
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:14:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:
what pistols besides 1911's use internal extractors ??



Early hi-powers, for one.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:05:40 PM EDT
Check the Kimber web site and you'll see that the vast majority of the models pictured now have an internal extractor.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:20:12 PM EDT
Aside from the functional aspect, aesthetically it just doesn't look right on a 1911.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:31:15 AM EDT
It was solution to a non-existant problem.
At least it was temporary, they wised up and discontinued it.
All the new guns have internals.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:41:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:26:57 AM EDT
I had significant issues with extraction and ejection on a Kimber Eclipse Pro II. After deciding it was less trouble to replace the piece than try to get the extractor working, I'm very happy with a Kimber Classic Custom Royal with internal extractor.

I got really unhappy when I was in a training class and that old Kimber wasn't working for me. I don't want to pay a bunch of dollars for a training class to have a gun that won't run. Fortunately, I had brought a Springfield with internal extractor as an alternate in case of malfunctions. I completed the class with the Springfield.

Another bonus in the case of internal extractors is the ease of maintenance. I can pull, retension, replace, or whatever I want with an internal extractor. External extractors are proprietary to the manufacturer of the pistol, which really limits my maintenance options.

Cheers,

kk7sm

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:59:22 AM EDT
Any one have any pics so one can see what to look for?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:45:02 AM EDT
www.kimberamerica.com/goldmatch.php

If you look at the Gold Match II picture, you cannot see an external extractor; thus, it is an internal extractor.

If you look at the Team Match II picture, you can see the external extractor on the side of the slide.

Cheers,

kk7sm
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:30:51 AM EDT
That settles it. Thanks for the info y'all (except for those of you that just couldn't keep from making comments like "It just don't belong!"). Sleep soundly knowing that I won't be purchasing a Kimber with external extractor because of your advice. It just sucks that Kimber went off and decided to go cheap on us. I used to think that Kimbers were the best "out of the box" 1911. Its encouraging to see they apparently quit using the EEs but now I'll never look at their guns the same.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:32:46 AM EDT
never had a problem with my ultra CDP-II
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:43:18 AM EDT
Larry Vickers is of the opinion that all 1911s should be switched to external extractors. He states that after putting tens of thousands of rounds through countless pistols, that that is the primary weak spot in the design.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:10:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By beavegun:
That settles it. Thanks for the info y'all (except for those of you that just couldn't keep from making comments like "It just don't belong!"). Sleep soundly knowing that I won't be purchasing a Kimber with external extractor because of your advice. It just sucks that Kimber went off and decided to go cheap on us. I used to think that Kimbers were the best "out of the box" 1911. Its encouraging to see they apparently quit using the EEs but now I'll never look at their guns the same.



Don't get me wrong.

I own a Kimber and love it. It's one of theirs with an internal extractor and it works very well. Aside from extractor issues with the Eclipse Pro II I had, it was a fine handgun, as well. I have no problem recommending a Kimber to my friends, but I don't think Kimber's external extractor design was a good design.

On the other hand, the Sigs and S&Ws I've seen with external extractors have worked quite well. They use a different design than the Kimber. It's a longer extractor and from what I've seen, it appears to be a good design, very similar to the design on the more recent Browning HPs. It's still a proprietary design, and I can't replace it with an off the shelf product, but I've met too many pleased Sig and S&W owners to discount it.

I believe the Springfields are also a great value. Right now, I own some Colt's, a Kimber and a Springfield. They're all fine firearms and I'm quite pleased with all of them. Looking at Kimber's website, it appears they've modified the Eclipse series to have internal extractors again. If my Kimber Eclipse had had an internal extractor, I'm sure I would still have it.

Cheers,

kk7sm
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:00:21 PM EDT
No problems with my Pro Eclipse II. I love the gun. I use a Marvel 22 conversion with it too and its flawless with the right magazines (lol). Good luck
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:45:34 PM EDT

It is a device to save manufacturers money. It is like putting a nose-ring on the mona lisa.



How would the nose ring save you money?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:07:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kk7sm:
www.kimberamerica.com/goldmatch.php

If you look at the Gold Match II picture, you cannot see an external extractor; thus, it is an internal extractor.

If you look at the Team Match II picture, you can see the external extractor on the side of the slide.

I can see it. Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:17:36 AM EDT
Hew eff you buddy. My answer WAS SERIOUS. If you didn't like it, keep it to yourself. If you don't want your questioned answered, post them on an imaginary forum to your invisible friends.


Originally Posted By beavegun:
That settles it. Thanks for the info y'all (except for those of you that just couldn't keep from making comments like "It just don't belong!"). Sleep soundly knowing that I won't be purchasing a Kimber with external extractor because of your advice. It just sucks that Kimber went off and decided to go cheap on us. I used to think that Kimbers were the best "out of the box" 1911. Its encouraging to see they apparently quit using the EEs but now I'll never look at their guns the same.


Link Posted: 2/13/2006 11:24:47 AM EDT
Hey, Rob_H. My answer was A JOKE. I got tired of using little smiley faces to denote this . . . sorry. hinkmy opinion. My original question had nothing to do with how the gun looks - its a matter of personal preference. FUNCTION is the key here, my friend. You are welcome to post your opinion - then be chastised for it. Ain't it great to live free? Plenty of other people like CastorTroy chimed in with links and personal experiences that actually helped me form an opinion as to what I should look for when my wife (sigh) lets me buy a Kimber. Yours just wasn't one of them. Don't feel bad.

Love,
beavegun

PS - How does a nose ring save you money?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:05:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Larry Vickers is of the opinion that all 1911s should be switched to external extractors. He states that after putting tens of thousands of rounds through countless pistols, that that is the primary weak spot in the design.




I am sure that some good EEs exist. The Kimbers is not one of them.

IIRC he also identified the plunger tubes and grip safety as troublesome peices.
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