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Posted: 2/1/2006 3:15:17 PM EDT
I had a shitload of type 3s with my Series 2 Kimber. My IAD to clear them is to lock the slide, drop the mag, rack the slide three times, reload. This is the only time I ever drop the slide empty. How much of this can I do before the trigger starts to degrade? It's purely academic since I no longer have the weapon.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:23:06 PM EDT
Rack the slide three times? There is gona be one whole hell of a lot of shooting back at you going on if you do this when a bad guy is on you. If you train this way, buy some life insurance now.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:29:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Rack the slide three times? There is gona be one whole hell of a lot of shooting back at you going on if you do this when a bad guy is on you. If you train this way, buy some life insurance now.



How else do you clear a type three? BTW, when I have had to do this in the kill house, I back up behind cover first.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:53:21 PM EDT
NewB question time....What is a type 3 malfunction?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:53:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:56:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 3:57:06 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:59:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slimbo:
NewB question time....What is a type 3 malfunction?



One round or case in the chamber with the slide trying to push a fresh round out of the mag into the already occupied chamber. It can lock a gun up pretty tight.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:12:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
You aren't dropping the slide empty. You are working the slide to clear it, your hand rides the slide the entire time.

There are times when it is required to drop the slide, function checking a trigger job for instance. Done occasionaly it hurts nothing.



Ah, I see. I never thought of that. I was taught to drop it, but riding it ought to work too.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:27:29 PM EDT
Jack, some teach that the slide should be ridden, others do not. I could debate either side. In general, I wouldn't be terribly concerned--I mean, I certainly wouldn't let the cost of a new trigger job keep me from training.

damian@adcofirearms.com
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:49:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dubb-1:
Jack, some teach that the slide should be ridden, others do not. I could debate either side. In general, I wouldn't be terribly concerned--I mean, I certainly wouldn't let the cost of a new trigger job keep me from training.

damian@adcofirearms.com



Nor would I. During the teething of that beautiful Steve Bailey Colt Commercial that you probably saw first on LTW, I had a type three and beat that thing like a red headed stepchild.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:41:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Ah, I see. I never thought of that. I was taught to drop it, but riding it ought to work too.


I was taught to drop the slide as well. I've never ridden the slide before; I'll have to try it. Just curious, ever have your hand get pinched in the port (not likely with a 1911, but perhaps with a Glock, HK, etc)?


Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
During the teething of that beautiful Steve Bailey Colt Commercial that you probably saw first on LTW, I had a type three and beat that thing like a red headed stepchild.

IM sent regarding this.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:59:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 6:00:26 PM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Rack the slide three times? There is gona be one whole hell of a lot of shooting back at you going on if you do this when a bad guy is on you. If you train this way, buy some life insurance now.



How else do you clear a type three? BTW, when I have had to do this in the kill house, I back up behind cover first.



I'm thinking..............backup gun. I'm also thinking.....................sell that Series 2 and get a Series 1.

Lets say your extractor has broken. After all that, still no workee. What are you gonna do, lock, clear, rack, rack, rack, reload a second and third time.........dirt nap, brother. Your gun is broke.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:05:36 PM EDT
First off I'd get the damned thing fixed and if it kept doing it shitcan it and get a more reliable gun. I wouldnt worry about sear damage if the gun doesnt work right to begin with.

Internal extractors=good
Short stubby external extractors=BAD

I have heard the new smith 1911s have a big long honkin external that works well.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:08:21 PM EDT
How about geting the gun tuned up so it runs.

Kimber makes decent 1911's but they usually need the extractor tuned.

...no comment on the "new and improved" external extractor.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:16:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Rack the slide three times? There is gona be one whole hell of a lot of shooting back at you going on if you do this when a bad guy is on you. If you train this way, buy some life insurance now.




you rack it 3 times just incase there is gunk or something causing the extractor to be stuck/obstructed. Racking it hard 3 times can and usually will fix this problem. And you usually do it behind cover AND concealment.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:21:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 6:22:10 PM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By wildearp:

Lets say your extractor has broken. After all that, still no workee. What are you gonna do, lock, clear, rack, rack, rack, reload a second and third time.........dirt nap, brother. Your gun is broke.



Nah, if it keeps going down you draw a backup gun or do your best Steve Tarani impression. You have to do it behind cover.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:22:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Derek45:
How about geting the gun tuned up so it runs.

Kimber makes decent 1911's but they usually need the extractor tuned.

...no comment on the "new and improved" external extractor.



External Extractors are SHIT. I lost a lot of money on that one, and it fucking COULD NOT be fixed without a new slide. Then I still would have had to pay to get it refinished and shit.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:25:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vinh:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Ah, I see. I never thought of that. I was taught to drop it, but riding it ought to work too.


I was taught to drop the slide as well. I've never ridden the slide before; I'll have to try it. Just curious, ever have your hand get pinched in the port (not likely with a 1911, but perhaps with a Glock, HK, etc)?


Yeah, I have caught my hand in there. IIRC it was a Glock, and it hurt a bit

IM sent regarding this.


Back at you bro.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:19:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Rack the slide three times? There is gona be one whole hell of a lot of shooting back at you going on if you do this when a bad guy is on you. If you train this way, buy some life insurance now.



should have thought about this one before you replied...

obviously you have no tactical training with the 1911 platform. the type "4" malfunction (depending where you come from) is a double feed. proper solution is to:
1: lock the slide to the rear to take the pressure off the mag
2: drop/strip the mag
3: rack the slide at least 3 times to clear any stuck round/brass (also the reason is if it is dark and you cant see into the chamber.)
4: re incert a fresh mag, rack, and get back in fight.

This is doctrine in all LE who use 1911's and Mil Spec Ops unit who use the 1911


NewB question time....What is a type 3 malfunction?


type 1: is failure to battery...........(hit the rear of the slide)
type 2: is failure to seat mag..........(TAP, RACK, BAG)
type 3: is stove pipe............(with the no firing hand sweep the brass clear)
type 4: is Double feed.........(see above)

these are the only 4 malfunctions a 1911 will have any other malfunction will be mechanical.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:32:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 7:35:49 PM EDT by JasonBurton]
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:48:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:56:20 AM EDT
thank you sir, anytime I can help!
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:58:01 AM EDT
Thank you Simplydynamic. Some of the responses here are amazing. Any gun can malfuction. Those malfunctions MUST be planned for and that doesn't mean getting better life insurance. It means learning the proper way to clear them and clear them fast.

As to riding the slide versus letting it slam, I prefer to ride it. I ride it pretty viciously though. If there is a round stuck, I slam that bitch forward HARD to get the extractor over the rim to get it the fuck out. This is no time to be going easy on it. I also don't want to have to re-aquire my grip on the slide for each cycle. I don't know if that will damage the hammer/sear engagement, but I doubt it would be a problem, even with fairly frequent practice.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:59:54 AM EDT
One other thing... I practiced this during a class at Frontsight in NV. We were given 5 seconds to perform this drill. By the end of the class, I was done in less than that with the gun back on target, fully charged with a fresh magazine.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:01:33 AM EDT

As to riding the slide versus letting it slam, I prefer to ride it. I ride it pretty viciously though


BIG + 1 here! Im the same as Cliffy!

And as far as the Type 4 malfunction time goes 5 seconds is a good goal time to get down to! and then once you are proficient you can get it down to 3 1/2 sec...but this takes lots of work....but we 1911 gunners like a lot of work right?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:02:18 AM EDT
cliffy, I think I will beging incorporating your technique.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:56:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Derek45:
How about geting the gun tuned up so it runs.

Kimber makes decent 1911's but they usually need the extractor tuned.

...no comment on the "new and improved" external extractor.



External Extractors are SHIT. I lost a lot of money on that one, and it fucking COULD NOT be fixed without a new slide. Then I still would have had to pay to get it refinished and shit.



Did the gun you're refering to in your original post, the one you had type 3 trouble with, have the so called "new & improved" external extrator?

My Grandfather carried a Colt 1911 in World War ONE, it still functions fine with the original John Browning design. that gun left the factory in 1913 !

My IPSC guns do to , and they get over 10,000 rounds a year thru them.

There is nothing wrong with the original extractor, provided it's tuned/adjusted correctly.

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:04:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Derek45:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Derek45:
How about geting the gun tuned up so it runs.

Kimber makes decent 1911's but they usually need the extractor tuned.

...no comment on the "new and improved" external extractor.



External Extractors are SHIT. I lost a lot of money on that one, and it fucking COULD NOT be fixed without a new slide. Then I still would have had to pay to get it refinished and shit.



Did the gun you're refering to in your original post, the one you had type 3 trouble with, have the so called "new & improved" external extrator?

My Grandfather carried a Colt 1911 in World War ONE, it still functions fine with the original John Browning design. that gun left the factory in 1913 !

My IPSC guns do to , and they get over 10,000 rounds a year thru them.

There is nothing wrong with the original extractor, provided it's tuned/adjusted correctly.



Yeah, I am talking about the external extractor. Whatever dickhead in Yonkers who thinks he knows better than John Moses needs to find a new job.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 4:51:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:00:00 PM EDT
ikor,
I got the abbreviated lecture. Basically it amounted to two different ways to clears a malfunction. The first is tap rack bang. Easy enough. It will clear the failure to return to battery, failure to seat, and stovepipes. If that doesn't work, I go into double feed mode. So I've never learned all the names properly, just the IAD and type 3 IAD. Whatever it is, it works.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:13:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:41:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
ikor,
I got the abbreviated lecture. Basically it amounted to two different ways to clears a malfunction. The first is tap rack bang. Easy enough. It will clear the failure to return to battery, failure to seat, and stovepipes. If that doesn't work, I go into double feed mode. So I've never learned all the names properly, just the IAD and type 3 IAD. Whatever it is, it works.



That is exactly what I teach...and why.



I do it the same way.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:17:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 8:18:52 PM EDT by Combat_Jack]
.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 4:50:49 AM EDT
For whatever it's worth, sear damage really does not occur unless you have the hammer drop to half cock. Even then, as Jason points out, a quality hammer and sear can take it.

Also, on a class 3, I prefer to let the slide slam home. If the gun malfed due to the extractor, I'm working on the theory that there might be a foreign object or crud in there, and the more force the better. Just my $.02 worth. I also don't bother locking the slide back, but instead rip the mag out and go to work.

An interesting alternative method is being tought out west here. Instead of pulling out the mag and ditching it (under the theory it's a bad mag), one pulls the mag, keeps it in hand while working the slide once, twice, 3 times, or whatever, then reinserts the same mag and finishes the loading process. The thought here is that if you are running quality mags more than likely the malf was extractor, ammo, or dirt related, and ditching a perfectly good mag is a bad thing when one carries limited amounts of handgun ammo. It's just another thing to consider.

On a side note, I just put in my first Yo-Bo hammer/sear/disconnector set. I wanted to share my intital impressions. I thought it was a little pricey, but it was my friend's gun. I took them out of the package and immediately noticed they were the nicest machined parts I've ever seen. The only parts I can't compare them to are Dane Burns', but I've used every other major brand out there.

They dropped in at about 8 pounds crisp, but once I did a little work, it came out much lighter and very crisp. None of that matters, as the weight is dependent on a lot of things. However, they have my vote as the best hammer, sear and diconnector out there with regards to machining. Simply beautiful stuff!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 10:27:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
SIMPLYDYNAMIC;

I have had much training and done my share as well. I am curious as to what procedure you follow should a malfunction happen in the dark during action? I am genuinely interested, not trying to be an azz.

I almost always ran...and still run when I train... a mixed line...sometimes with wheelguns alongside various autopistols...and many times using steel action (air driven Rogers plate system) targets in both daylight and dark, etc. My answer to not being able to visually ID the malfunction in question was / is to immediately go to a "tap / rack / go" and if that does not get the gun up and running, seek cover and do a "lock / rip / work / tap / rack / go". Two drills only...one building on the other.

In my experience with "less than dedicated" shooters, there is little hope of them remembering several different clearance techniques, much less applying them under heavy stress.

And no, I am not talking about the guys responding to this post, but I suspect SIMPLYDYNAMIC and Combat_Jack are very familar with the guys I AM talking about.

Always happy to learn from others...saves a LOT of wear and tear!



Well good question Ikor,
When I teach my students, I teach them not to be just operators to their hanguns...but to be its master! so by learning the 4 types of malfunctions inside and out, more importantly becoming very proficent with them. but the first thing people should learn is about how to establish a combat mindset so when a duress situation appears that person can deal with the BAR (body alarm response) and be inoculated to that stress. The only way to do this is to train, train, train. yes the average Joe on the street will lose all fine motor skills under duress, due to the caustic cocktail of hormones and adrenaline pumping through the bloodstream....this happens to us all no matter the experience....BUT you can inoculate to that stress and learn to fight BAR by being very proficent!

which leads us to the question now...
as most of us know LOW LIGHT FIGHTING is a whole different art in is self, and a whole different class from handgun and combat mindset, if anyone has actually learned this or been to courses like the surefire institue or Dave Maynards low light then they would know this. but to keep from rambling on and answer the question here goes:
when I am fighting low light and I am engaging I will have the target lite up right? so therefore I can still see my weapon....yes its going to be more difficult than daylight but the feeling of the malfunctions are the same.
1: dead trigger but the weapon appears normal (out of battery)
2: you feel the hammer drop "click" (failure to seat mag)
3: you see the stove pipe silloetting out the top of the frame
4: dead trigger and slide partially to the rear (double feed)

try all setting up all these malfuctions with training rounds in the day and in the dark(with a light, weapon mounted preferably) a may seem like a lot to remember under duress, but remember that proficency is muscle memory and with a established combat mindset this will work! this is not something you can just learn in a week course or doing in your house for a couple of days, this takes detication and time which we all should have when it comes to knowing our weapon systems and saving our's or our loved ones lives.

sorry to hijak but there you go.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 10:38:15 AM EDT
Just to add to this, remember that the method for clearing a type 4 malfunction will clear all malfunctions. If you really can't see your gun and you are not sure what you're dealing with, this will clear any of them. Lock, strip, rack rack rack, fresh mag, rack and you're back in action no matter what. Its not as fast as tap, rack, bang, but because it handles them all, should be practiced more.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 10:41:30 AM EDT
right! which in the end "IF" my primary clearing did not work (but it should) would be my remeadial action.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:41:20 PM EDT
Unless you have some sort of ultra light match tuned bullseye target trigger job, a normal hammer\triger\sear combo should last a long long time. We used to beat the crap out of out issue 1911's dry firing and performing malfunction drills. I never saw anything break from all this, although trying to figure out if the USGI triger job was deteiorating over time could be a challenge.

A more important question is are you training like you will fight? If there is a drill that will save your ass in a fight but is hard on the gun, then stock up on parts. SPORTS is still burned into my mental and physical memory, as well as the pistol drills.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:15:58 PM EDT
Hicks Law--the more options you have, the longer it takes you to choose one and do it.

10-8 Discussion of Hick's Law
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:30:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Hicks Law--the more options you have, the longer it takes you to choose one and do it.

10-8 Discussion of Hick's Law



I agree!.....for the average/novice shooter, The reason the Pros have so many options is because their circle of awarness is wide open and have been doing it for many years unlike the novice shooter, again these methods take years of practice but once you are there it is the greatest feeling in the world to come out on top in a fight even when shit went bad.

you think NASCAR drivers only know how to drive the car?.......
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