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Posted: 1/14/2006 1:48:15 PM EDT

I have an early 70's Colt Series 70 here that I'm trying to get back into fighting trim. Nowlin action kit, Wilson beavertail and extended thumb safety, and a MCM trigger (which I think I'm gonna swap out because it's just too damn SHARP! It actually sliced my finger last range trip)...

The extractor extracts fine and is not over-tensioned (And I have a tension adjuster here as well, so that's a non-issue)...I also removed the stock ejector and replaced it with the Wilson bullet-proof extended one. I've also got a Wilson ejector here that I've tensioned to the frame.

However, the same problem exists with either ejector or extractor.

Here's the problem:

Sometimes it pops the rounds out perfectly. 3 o'clock on the horizontal and 1:30/2 on the vertical scale.

Other times...it pops the rounds between 5 and 7 (yes, 7) on the horizontal. I get pegged in the forehead a bit.

Also, some rounds look like this after ejection:



Like they suffered a stovepipe where the round got squished between the barrel hood and breechface...but they ejected and the gun didn't hiccup. When that happens on the last round (and it does about half the time) the case is REALLY mangled like that, but again, it still ejected and the slide locks back.

Sometimes when I hand-cycle with dummy rounds..the round tries ejecting almost sideways and gets caught...no amount of yanking back the slide frees it; I need to push it down with my finger to get it unhooked. It just can't cam the round out from under the extractor.

This happens with both the stock extractor and with a Wilson bullet-proof one. Happens no matter WHAT the tension is on 'em, either...too much, too little (when the round isn't held captive and just falls out if I push a dummy round in and put the slide upright when it's off the frame), etc.

One obviously quick fix would be to lower/flare the ejection port...but I don't want to. Partly because I don't really want to send the slide off to be machined and then refinished (I love the blue on the piece), but mostly because I like the classic lines of a high wall ejection port more than a lowered one.

I don't mind if the case gets dinged on ejection...but I don't want totally mangled cases and I am getting tired of having round carbon circles imprinted on my forehead

Does anyone have ANY idea what's possibly causing this, and how to fix it without sending the slide off to a machine shop? Not that I won't if I need to, but I want to do as much as I possibly can myself...I can't learn if someone else does it for me

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 2:20:31 PM EDT
How heavy is the recoil spring? Do you have a shok buff in it? It looks like the brass is hitting the hood and then the side of the port. I can't really see how else you can be getting dents like this. Maybe the ejector is just to long? Did it do this before you replaced the ejector with an extended one? I agree that it does not seem like an ejector malf.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 2:34:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:
How heavy is the recoil spring? Do you have a shok buff in it? It looks like the brass is hitting the hood and then the side of the port. I can't really see how else you can be getting dents like this. Maybe the ejector is just to long? Did it do this before you replaced the ejector with an extended one? I agree that it does not seem like an ejector malf.



Happened with both the standard and the new extended ejector...so I don't think it's an ejector problem. Actually, with the old ejector, sometimes the round would get caught on ejection...either stovepipes or a failure just like the one above, except it would stay there and gum up the works. With the new ejector, it actually clears.

I'm running with an 18# Wolff spring..the original spring was beat and very weak. I have it around somewhere, but the same problem happened with that one to, so...

No shok buff though I want to put a buffer in; I get worried running +P or such through it without a buffer of some kind. Yes, I'm well aware of all the possible problems a buffer can cause But, at the moment, there's none in the gun.

My only thought so far is that there's an error on the breech face of the slide...either the left side is crowding in too much, or there's a machining mis-step on the extractor side of the slide...but I have no idea how to check for that I mean, it all looks fine...
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 2:41:40 PM EDT
I can't understand why 2 sides of the empty are denting. I just don't see that. even with all the USGI guns I own. It looks like 2 seperate strikes on some part of the slide. Try painting or marking a few rounds on the brass with a very thin paint. Let it dry and fire them. See what picks up the paint transfer. I guess I would start there.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 2:44:12 PM EDT
That is a good idea! I'll try that out next time I get a chance to try it out...assuming someone else doesn't chime in with a fix

Need to score some more .45 though, bleh.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 3:15:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
That is a good idea! I'll try that out next time I get a chance to try it out...assuming someone else doesn't chime in with a fix

Need to score some more .45 though, bleh.



What ammo were you using? I just picked up 3K worth of match ammo, glad I have a reloading friend [reloading biz, he is GOOD!] who sells it to me at a nice price as long as I give him the brass back. He will reload it and give the same brass/round back to you. Scary accurate stuff, but 1500 rounds in a "can" is heavier then you think.

The Gold paint seems to be pretty thin and will show well. I use spray can stuff as it is thinned out and a can will last forever or til you end up shooting it for the heck of it. [yeah, slow day]

I will bet it is hitting on the right side of the top of the port and on the side of the port by the extractor.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 5:45:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
That is a good idea! I'll try that out next time I get a chance to try it out...assuming someone else doesn't chime in with a fix

Need to score some more .45 though, bleh.



What ammo were you using? I just picked up 3K worth of match ammo, glad I have a reloading friend [reloading biz, he is GOOD!] who sells it to me at a nice price as long as I give him the brass back. He will reload it and give the same brass/round back to you. Scary accurate stuff, but 1500 rounds in a "can" is heavier then you think.

The Gold paint seems to be pretty thin and will show well. I use spray can stuff as it is thinned out and a can will last forever or til you end up shooting it for the heck of it. [yeah, slow day]

I will bet it is hitting on the right side of the top of the port and on the side of the port by the extractor.



I was using American Eagle, and some Federal expanding point +P stuff I got from Eric (ammoman).

Also tried some real hot stuff a friend of mine gave me, a couple rounds...almost 1100 FPS! And it's not rated as +P! But holy shit, that stuff had a thump. I can't remember the name off the top of my head (vodka), but wow.

I only shoot commerical stuff...once I can afford the startup I'll probably wind up reloading as it should be cheaper on the back end (especially once I get this stuff running, I hope to be going through at least 5-600 rounds a week)...

*sigh* this damn hobby does add up, doesn't it...


Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:19:40 AM EDT
Okay....

You mention that you have ONE STOCK ejector that you have removed from the weapon and you have TWO Wilson EXTENDED ejectors. One fitted and the other not. Now, have either of the Wilson Ejectors had the Case Contact Point ( the ejection point ) trimmed back?

I am going to take a guess that during recoil, the weapon is trying to eject the cartridge early and it is slamming it against the hood of the barrel and then against the slide at some point....maybe being crushed at a second point by slide contact on the way back into battery.

Just a SWAG.....but I posted it to see what you guys think....
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:09:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Okay....

You mention that you have ONE STOCK ejector that you have removed from the weapon and you have TWO Wilson EXTENDED ejectors. One fitted and the other not. Now, have either of the Wilson Ejectors had the Case Contact Point ( the ejection point ) trimmed back?

I am going to take a guess that during recoil, the weapon is trying to eject the cartridge early and it is slamming it against the hood of the barrel and then against the slide at some point....maybe being crushed at a second point by slide contact on the way back into battery.

Just a SWAG.....but I posted it to see what you guys think....



Nonono....I had the stock ejector, and the ONE Wilson extended ejector. The other Wilson part is an EXTRACTOR Actually, I do have 2 ejectors...one as a spare, for just in case. Haven't even taken it out of the wrapper yet. (Spare, ya know?)

The same problem existed with the stock ejector as with the Wilson one; it couldn't cam out the round sometimes. The Wilson one actually punches it out all the way whereas I had numerous failures to completly clear the case using the stock ejector.

Now, it COULD be that the ejector is now a little long, that is a distinct possibility. However, right now, I just want to figure out why sometimes it ejects right, and other times it really mangles the cases I can always bring the ejector down a little bit and dress it some...

The extractor does not clock. It clocked a little bit with the stock firing pin stop (VERY little, at that) and clocks almost not at all with an Ed Brown oversize firing pin stop (which actually fits just fine). Same problem happened with the stock stop, too; sometimes it'd punch it out just fine and other times, mangled cases and/or cases making divots in my forehead.

To give another idea, I have a Sistema here which clocks like a union worker, but it still manages to punch out cases cleanly and between 2 and 4 on the clock, horizontally. Right now it's problem is that the slide stop likes walking out, but that's another issue.

At this point the only thing I can figure would be a machining problem somewhere in the slide, but I just don't know Hoping someone here might have an idea, or had this happen to them...


Maybe one day I should buy an actual new 1911 to use, and not have these problems
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:57:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
Maybe one day I should buy an actual new 1911 to use, and not have these problems



Did you install the parts?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:24:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 6:24:49 AM EDT by Evil_Ed]
Yes, I try to do as much of my own work as I can

New/fitted parts on this thing are a new Nowlin action kit (which did drop in), Wilson beavertail (which didn't, had to fit that), Wilson safety (again, had to fit that, snicks sharp and clean), and the McCormick trigger (which took a lot of fiddling). Compared to the whole beavertail and safety thing, the ejector was a snap (hardest part was putting the pin back in) and tuning the extractor was easy, too.


ETA Seems I said all this in the first post whoops..
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:41:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
Yes, I try to do as much of my own work as I can

New/fitted parts on this thing are a new Nowlin action kit (which did drop in), Wilson beavertail (which didn't, had to fit that), Wilson safety (again, had to fit that, snicks sharp and clean), and the McCormick trigger (which took a lot of fiddling). Compared to the whole beavertail and safety thing, the ejector was a snap (hardest part was putting the pin back in) and tuning the extractor was easy, too.


ETA Seems I said all this in the first post whoops..



Are you a trained gunsmith?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:10:20 AM EDT
No, but what does that have to do with anything? This isn't the first time I've fixed up a 1911.

This is, however, the first time I've encountered a problem like this, and I figure there's got to be someone with more experience than I who's run into this exact problem before.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:22:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 7:23:55 AM EDT by ThreeMan]
If you're using +P ammo the problem might be your recoil spring 18lb might not slow the slide enouph.

Try a higher rated recoil spring or stop shooting +P in the pistol.

Anouther thing is to check for binding from your recoil rod.
I had this same problem over 15 years ago when I had an Auto Ordinance 1911. The GI guide rod was binding and eventually the GI guide rod had a flat in the area that was binding. Actually It was binding so bad that it even had hammering marks on the inside forward portion of the slide.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:36:51 AM EDT
I don't generally shoot +P stuff...and it happens regardless of +P or not

It also happens regardless of if I'm hand-cycling it, or with the rod/spring in place...it just gets hung up on not being able to cam it out properly. The bent cases are a consequence, I'm guessing, of it's inability to always cam the round out in the proper way...

The guide rod looks fine, I don't think it's binding anywhere...I don't see any excess wear on it or on the slide
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:47:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 7:48:04 AM EDT by ThreeMan]
It's a timing issue.
Your ejector, extractor or combination of both could be causing the problem.
Your extractor could be too tight holding and not allowing the case to eject in time.

Have you tried the standard 16 lb recoil spring?

Some 1911's do not like the 18lb springs.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:42:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThreeMan:
It's a timing issue.
Your ejector, extractor or combination of both could be causing the problem.
Your extractor could be too tight holding and not allowing the case to eject in time.

Have you tried the standard 16 lb recoil spring?

Some 1911's do not like the 18lb springs.



Using the old ejector, the same thing happened.

The extractor has been tensioned correctly; every gauge I have says so, and the case is held in loosly, as it should be.

The problem happens hand-cycling without a spring, hand-cycling with a spring, shooting normal .45 ball, and shooting +P expanding points. Sometimes the case comes out perfectly, other times it wants to punch out almost straight sideways. The extractor does not clock.


I'm confident it's not a spring weight issue, I'm confident it's not an extractor issue, and reasonably confident it's not an ejector issue. (With the old ejector, half the time the case wouldn't eject at all. With the new ejector, it always does.)

Which leaves that it might be a slide issue, but I don't know what dimensions to check in their and/or what it could possibly be..



Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:51:23 AM EDT
First, a stock Wilson extractor straight out of the package is WAY TOO LONG. Get a copy of the Kunhausen book to figure your ejection timing.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:03:43 AM EDT
Is this a pistol you really need to be reliable or just a fun 1911 home gunsmith project? If it's just a fun project, keep at it because it sounds like fun. If it were intended to run reliably I would box it up and ship it off to a qualified 1911 familiar gunsmith. I have seen to many home built 1911’s that turn into nightmares.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:12:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sinister:
First, a stock Wilson extractor straight out of the package is WAY TOO LONG. Get a copy of the Kunhausen book to figure your ejection timing.



Is it? Erk...

I have a stock one in a Sistema, and while it sticks out the back a little, it's spot-on.

Yah, that's one book I don't have...I need to save up the bones to get the set
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:17:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Is this a pistol you really need to be reliable or just a fun 1911 home gunsmith project? If it's just a fun project, keep at it because it sounds like fun. If it were intended to run reliably I would box it up and ship it off to a qualified 1911 familiar gunsmith. I have seen to many home built 1911’s that turn into nightmares.



It's the fun one with aims to make it the reliable one

This is literally the only bug left to work out...it feeds everything from ashtrays to ball, Slide to frame is good, the sights are good, the barrel's good (I can make one ragged hole at 30 feet if I do my part, which might not be much for most poeple but it makes me feel all manly inside), it's comfortable, safety's nice and positive without any real travel when the hammer's down (I have a 1911 here where I can move the safety up enough to prevent me pulling back the slide, even when the hammer's down), the trigger pull is great, etc...

Just it's this one stupid problem that's driving me nuts now

But, the previous suggestion about the extractor being too long...well, here's the thing: This is with the STOCK Extractor I'm working with now. Same behaviour exists with both stock and Wilson.

Other than welding and re-cutting, is there another way to shorten an extractor?

The cartridge isn't held on flush to the breech face; I could probably fit an index card or maybe a folded one under the cartridge, on the side of the extractor..
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:37:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:55:58 AM EDT by Sinister]
Dang. I meant ejector, EJECTOR. The long, pokey part on the front of that EJECTOR that impacts the base of the case as the extractor pulls to the rear needs to be shortened with a file. You will be able to tune it (by filing the angle) so that your empties will clear the standard GI / Series 70 ejection port without too badly messing up your case mouths (if you reload) and keep the empties from hitting you in the forehead or scratching up your shooting glasses.

From the Kuhnhausen Volume 2, for a long ejector it should mike 1.0 to 1.08 inches from base of ejector (where it matches the profile of the receiver) to tip. 1.10" for an extra-long ejector. Face about 17 degrees (about matching the magazine angle) "Or custom shape" (i.e. to clear a GI/ Series 70 port).

Longer than that and you can risk the ejector nose hitting the primer of a mis-feed and setting it off.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:42:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:43:49 AM EDT by FALARAK]
I had the EXACT same problem, with the EXACT same dents. Springfield Armory 9109.

Mine would only occur on the last round in the mag, and ONLY with Wilson Combat 47D's. Still, it was very annoying.

The other problem I had, was that occasionally inertia would lift up my slide stop during firing and lock back the slide even with rounds still in the mag. (it had one of those heavier extended slide release levers installed)

I changed the recoil spring to a Wilson 18.5#, changed the slide stop for a Wilson (non-extended) and changed the extractor to a Wilson "bulletproof". I set the tension on the extractor, and the gun has been damn near flawless ever since these mods.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 11:19:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sinister:
Dang. I meant ejector, EJECTOR. The long, pokey part on the front of that EJECTOR that impacts the base of the case as the extractor pulls to the rear needs to be shortened with a file. You will be able to tune it (by filing the angle) so that your empties will clear the standard GI / Series 70 ejection port without too badly messing up your case mouths (if you reload) and keep the empties from hitting you in the forehead or scratching up your shooting glasses.

From the Kuhnhausen Volume 2, for a long ejector it should mike 1.0 to 1.08 inches from base of ejector (where it matches the profile of the receiver) to tip. 1.10" for an extra-long ejector. Face about 17 degrees (about matching the magazine angle) "Or custom shape" (i.e. to clear a GI/ Series 70 port).

Longer than that and you can risk the ejector nose hitting the primer of a mis-feed and setting it off.



Gotcha...It is entirely possible that the stocker was too short and this one a mite too long...

(That's why I got two, one spare, in case I fubar this one

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:04:44 PM EDT
Woot, I think I got it!

From ThreeMan:


It's a timing issue.
Your ejector, extractor or combination of both could be causing the problem.



And from Sinister:


First, a stock Wilson extractor ejector straight out of the package is WAY TOO LONG. Get a copy of the Kunhausen book to figure your ejection timing.



(Sinister later corrected himself; he meant ejector)

I ruminated, percolated, drank on, slept on, and dined on these two quotes for a while.

Figuring I had a spare ejector anyway, I broke out a file and went at the ejector. After comparing it to the stocker, I didn't need a book to tell me that Sinister was right; it was just too long...which also told me ThreeMan was right. Timing. It was just punching out the thing too soon, not to mention as it was so long, it gave almost zero case clearance on the ejection port. I couldn't eject dummy rounds most of the time, because the front of the bullet would get caught on it!

So, I went at the ejector...first off I angled it (almost the same angle as a stock ejector, but slightly more..not MUCH more, but it's noticable), bought the front edge back some, and then gave it a bevel on the inside edge of the ejector (less than 45 degrees..more rounded than anything, actually). Extractor tension was set, and I went to give it a shot at the range this evening.

Upside, I didn't get pinged in the forehead once directly Some fell on top my head after hitting the pully motor above my lane, but that was it for being pinged with brass...but, I still suffered some occasional failures to fully clear the case, as well as a couple of those crunched-mouth failures, all on the last round. This led me to believe that I had de-tensioned the extractor too much, as well as not doing enough filing on the ejector.

Also, kind of funny...the last round on a bunch of them, ejected to the LEFT. That's right, it came over my arms and landed to the left of me, straight from the port. Again, this made me suspect tension was a bit low, as well as the ejector was still too long, among other possible problems.

So, tonight, after cleaning, I took the file to the ejector again..took some more off, made the angle a little less sharp on the face, and rounded off the cuts again on the inside. However, I read something a while ago about dressing the bottom of the EXTRACTOR as well...couldn't find it, so decided to wing it. Broke out another file, and did the following...

Beveled/rounded the bottom edge of the groove in the head of the extractor
Beveled/rounded out the bottom of the front tooth in the head of the extractor

I figured this would do two things: Help in chambering, getting that rim into the groove; and ultimatly help tune ejection, as the case should cam out easier on a rounded surface.

So, after doing all that, finishing cleanup, and re-assembly, I hand-cycled it...and it worked! They all popped out around 4pm horizontally, around 1:30 vertically. Each and every one. It NEVER did that before.

I think the extractor tension is still a little loose, I'll tighten that up in a bit...tomorrow I'll take it to the range and give it another test run. If it fits, I'll cold-blue the exposed metal and after another thousand or two rounds, clear it for carry duty


Guys, thanks for all the advice and help.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:02:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 7:03:43 AM EDT by Sinister]
Outstanding, Ed! You were exactly right dressing up the bottom of the extractor groove and the bottom of the extractor "Claw", as that will help smooth the transition of the (extractor side) base of the case as it rises out of the magazine feed lips on to the breech face of the slide.

As for that case to the left, I've seen my cases go forward of the gun sometimes as they eject.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 9:06:43 AM EDT
Another common problem with ejected rounds changing path is caused by 'clocking' of the extractor. As it rotates slightly the ejection angle changes.
An oversize firing pin stop should be carefully fitted to prevent any extractor movement.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:33:42 PM EDT
Sounds to me someone needs to have his files taken away.

Put ALL the original parts back into the weapon and see if it still happens (ALL of the original PARTS)

Then make only one change at a time not 3 or 4, it only makes it more difficult to trouble shoot.

My two cents.



"Fire for Effect"
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:52:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NavyGunner:
Sounds to me someone needs to have his files taken away.

Put ALL the original parts back into the weapon and see if it still happens (ALL of the original PARTS)

Then make only one change at a time not 3 or 4, it only makes it more difficult to trouble shoot.

My two cents.



"Fire for Effect"



That's what got this problem started

Admittidly now that I know about the extractor, I probably could have kept the original ejector in the piece...however, since I'm here, may as well use the new ejector.

I need to find the time/money to hit the range with a couple hundred rounds and see if the latest round of dressing worked...

To the poster about the extractor clocking, I already did that...it still clocks a tiny, tiny, TINY bit, but FAR less than my ultra-reliable 1944 made Colt. (No, really...never had a failure that was not specifically induced by faulty ammunition or a bad magazine. Ever.)

We'll see how things go..
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:13:12 PM EDT
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