Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 12/29/2005 4:19:16 PM EDT
I am not new to firearms but I have an important question. I have a Springfield 1911 and have decided to get a ccl in my home state of Texas. On a few occasions I have had it holstered and cocked and locked(while hunting) but my butt major puckers for fear of a accidental discharge. Any horror stories? If I fall in a scuffle or drop it is it possible that it could discharge? I usually have it in the truck with full magazine, empty chamber, hammer down. I realize this would be worthless if I needed it. Don't just read this, talk to me!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:25:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:25:58 PM EDT by sysfailur]
Just remember you always have the grip safety as well. Unless you drop it and it hits a rock that knows how to hold a grip safety and pull the trigger at the same time,it'd be pretty hard to go off :P I would say it's plenty safe to do it, people do it with other guns--I don't see why it's such a big deal with the 1911... perhaps because it's such a big bad gun :)
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:26:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arteacher:
I am not new to firearms but I have an important question. I have a Springfield 1911 and have decided to get a ccl in my home state of Texas. On a few occasions I have had it holstered and cocked and locked(while hunting) but my butt major puckers for fear of a accidental discharge. Any horror stories? If I fall in a scuffle or drop it is it possible that it could discharge? I usually have it in the truck with full magazine, empty chamber, hammer down. I realize this would be worthless if I needed it. Don't just read this, talk to me!



I carry my Defender C&L but NOTHING is fool proof. Common sense should ALWAYS be applied to ANY loaded weapon.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:31:56 PM EDT
If you're worried about carrying C&L, try a Bianchi Model 82 holster. Auto retention and a fully enclosed trigger guard. Plus, it looks GOOD!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:35:07 PM EDT
My understanding is that's the way it was carried by our troops in combat, for the last 70 or so years until, they went the 9mm route. While it isn't foolproof, (nothing is) provided everything is working properly, grip saftey,saftey etc, I can't see any reason NOT to carry cocked and locked, provided you do some training with it like this, Maybe some additional training from someplace like thunder ranch? I could see how it would be possible to get an AD with a 1911 cocked and locked, But I feel some training would resolve this, as I feel this would be more of a operator problem than a design flaw...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:58:21 PM EDT
Everyone I know that carries a 1911 keeps it C&L.
Make sure your holster covers the trigger guard completely.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:03:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 5:03:42 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
i carry it C&L everyday at work--no worries

i have not heard any stories of it AD, even in a struggle....some stories www.sightm1911.com/

btw, i though that the mil had everyone carry pistols in condition 3....?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:08:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 5:08:49 PM EDT by ORinTX]
Nothing is foolproof.

But I wouldn't sweat it.

One thing to be certain of is that your carry gun is drop safe. Why? Because when you have it at low ready after having just dispatched a bad guy and the cops show up behind you insisting you drop it, you need to drop it and not have it go off. If it discharges the LEOs are likely to do away with you as well.

Even if it's your plan to reholster it, you might not have time; a LEO might be very close when SHTF.

The older 1911s aren't drop safe.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:08:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 11:09:23 PM EDT by desertmoon]
The key with C and L is to have a PROPERLY tuned safety. Lot's of folks tune 1911 safetys to be rather light and easy to engage or disengage....

I contend that the 1911 safety should be tuned to go from "on to off" OR "off to on" ONLY with FIRM and PURPOSEFUL pressure and a positive "CLICK!" in both directions. The technique for tuning a safety is very straightforward BUT each brand of safety, each type of detent and spring set and even the plunger tubes are different...that means that each 1911 has it's own sweet spot in regards to tuning the safety. Each has to be treated individually. This is a time consuming process...and well worth it.

A FIRM, CRISP safety is essential to the proper control of the funcitons of a 1911 because the safety is more likely to always be IN YOUR CONTROL moreso that a light, mushy one.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:08:25 AM EDT
Do not worry, C&L 1911's are very safe.

Where is the safety on a Glock or Sig? It's your trigger finger, and you can unintentionally apply sufficient pressure to fire a shot w/o meaning to. Very well documented by Dr. Roger Enoka (sympathetic squeeze reflex, startle response, loss of balance response, trigger search).

"Cocked and Locked" = hammer cocked, but sear is locked from moving.

1911 requires that you 1/properly grip the pistol 2/disengage the thumb safety 3/apply ~5# to the trigger to fire it (overcoming any internal passive safeties)

Steps 1 and 2 are conscious steps that you must take to discharge the pistol.

Glock requires that you 1/apply ~5# to the trigger (overcoming internal passive safeties).

Most people don't realize that a Glock with a chambered round has a partically "cocked" striker. You must can't see it.

Think about it: a cocked 1911 with grip and thumb safeties disengaged is the same level of safety as a Glock in it's normal carry condition. Even then, you have the full cock and half-cock notches (or hammer safety shelf) preventing the hammer from falling.


From the Springfield web site regarding their Bureau/Pro model (a series 70 gun)

"FBI Chooses Springfield's 1911-A1!
When the FBI decided they wanted 1911s as their sidearm of choice, they chose Springfield Armory. Of the many famous manufacturers and custom shops vying for the coveted FBI pistol contract, only the Springfield 1911 was able to meet and exceed the rigorous testing and production requirements set by the Bureau. Outstanding performance in the accuracy test, 20,000 round reliability "torture test" and the drop, throw and saltwater immersion and corrosion tests, made Springfield the FBI's hands-down winner. ."

IIRC, the drop test was vertical on the muzzle from between 3 to 6 feet onto concrete. The throw test was a 20 ft throw into a concrete wall.

FYI, never, ever, ever "thumb down" a cocked hammer on a loaded round. Bad things happen if your thumb slips.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:24:42 AM EDT
I think a cocked & locked 1911 is one of the safest (practical) modes of carry in existance.

I actually view a cocked & UNlocked 1911 to be in the same condition as a loaded chamber Glock*, an with a properly designed retention strap holster, even safer.

*The author has no objection to carrying Glocks, thinks they are fine and safe pistols.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:25:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:13:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:35:11 AM EDT
Carrying it cocked and locked is 100x more foolproof than the dangerous practice of easing down the hammer onto a loaded chamber.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:37:48 AM EDT
I am like you, alittle afraid of cocked and locked. I only do that when my spidy senses start acting up. Though I have been told that if you practice safe gun handling ALL THE TIME, it is perfectly safe.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:44:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tugboat:
I am like you, alittle afraid of cocked and locked. I only do that when my spidy senses start acting up. Though I have been told that if you practice safe gun handling ALL THE TIME, it is perfectly safe.



How do you remember what condition your pistol is in when all Hell breaks loose?
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:46:11 AM EDT
BTW, nothing is foolproof to a sufficently talented fool

The hammer on a 1911 has a half cock notch. If the hammer is disloged without the trigger being pulled, the half cock should catch the hammer before it makes it all the way to the firing pin. I personally wouldn't carry any other way than L&C because it is going to be very, very, difficult to rack the slide one handed if you find yourself injured. I've tried it in practice and it isn't for the weak of hand.

Whan I was an Army MP we carried the 1911 in condition three under normal peacetime conditions. When they switched to the M9 we started carrying hammer down on a loaded chamber. The M9 has a decocker so there wasn't a question of droping the hammer by accident.


Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

btw, i though that the mil had everyone carry pistols in condition 3....?



Link Posted: 12/30/2005 6:13:31 AM EDT
My experience with the M9 (AF SP in the 80s) was carrying with a round chambered. Never carried a 1911 so I can't comment on that one.

I can confirm that prior to the M9, we carried the M-15 with a round under the hammer (S&W K38 Combat Masterpiece).
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:12:51 AM EDT
I've wondered the same thing for well over a year or two(the whole carrying cocked and locked). I always carried condition 3 (loaded mag, no round in the chamber, hammer down, with the thumb safety OFF). I now carry cocked and locked. That is how it's designed. My thumb safety is nice and stiff. If it was not very stiff I would replace it.

I ultimately carried the gun cocked and locked without a round in the chamber for several weeks, before finally chambering a round and going cocked and locked. That was more for my peace of mind. Funny thing about that, it was less safe to do so because if I was ever in a situation I had to use the gun, I would have had to release the thumb safety before I could charge the slide and chamber a round, and what if it didn't chamber all the way for whatever reason.

Long story short. I carry it cocked and locked. Think of what you would do when you only have a split second to react to a situation. You gonna tell someone to hang on while you charge the slide on your 1911?

You have to decide.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:55:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tyler2you:
My experience with the M9 (AF SP in the 80s) was carrying with a round chambered. Never carried a 1911 so I can't comment on that one.

I can confirm that prior to the M9, we carried the M-15 with a round under the hammer (S&W K38 Combat Masterpiece).



<sarcasm> BUT IN THE MOVIES THEY ALWAYS COCK IT!!! </sarcasm>

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:59:31 PM EDT
All our combat troops as well as hunters carry their weapons cocked and locked everyday. That never seems to bother anyone… As long as you can't see the hammer.

Double Action is a solution for a problem that only exists in the minds of the uninformed or inexperienced.

Even then, those people will still be uninformed or inexperienced 2nd place runner-ups in a gun fight.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:09:33 AM EDT
Why not carry it with one in the chamber and not cocked? It would be easy to pull the hammer back. I carry mine cocked and locked when in the woods but I'm in the process of getting my CCW license and thought I might keep the hammer down when concealed.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:33:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
Why not carry it with one in the chamber and not cocked? It would be easy to pull the hammer back. I carry mine cocked and locked when in the woods but I'm in the process of getting my CCW license and thought I might keep the hammer down when concealed.



Decocking a 1911 is about the most dangerous thing you can do with it (besides the obvious). You have to disengage EVERY safety mechanism in the pistol then rely SOLELY on your thumb and/or finger to be able to render the weapon in a state no safer but slower into action than it was when you started.

In short, it's asking for a ND with no end benefit.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:21:14 AM EDT
Nothing is ever foolproof , but I have carried several colts and springfield 1911's cocked and locked for years, but always make sure your firearm is in good working order , even if you have to take it to a reliable Gunsmith,
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:32:27 AM EDT
I carried several makes of 1911 style of guns. All were carried condition 1. C&L.

Never had a problem. infact I was more comfortable than I was when I had a Glock. I guess it was due to having to manipulate a safety.

that is my 2 cents worth.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:52:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Parrot32:
All our combat troops as well as hunters carry their weapons cocked and locked everyday. That never seems to bother anyone… As long as you can't see the hammer.

Double Action is a solution for a problem that only exists in the minds of the uninformed or inexperienced.

Even then, those people will still be uninformed or inexperienced 2nd place runner-ups in a gun fight.




AMEN!!! JD
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:04:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:


The older 1911s aren't drop safe.



Upon what do you base this?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:29:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
Why not carry it with one in the chamber and not cocked? It would be easy to pull the hammer back. I carry mine cocked and locked when in the woods but I'm in the process of getting my CCW license and thought I might keep the hammer down when concealed.



Not smart. If you're that nervous, get a DA handgun. 1911's were designed to be carried cocked and locked, no exceptions. Anything else is dangerous and stupid.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:51:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
Why not carry it with one in the chamber and not cocked? It would be easy to pull the hammer back. I carry mine cocked and locked when in the woods but I'm in the process of getting my CCW license and thought I might keep the hammer down when concealed.



Not a good idea with any 1911, but even worse with a Springfield. The "half cock" shelf on the SA will allow the hammer to fall the rest of the way if you pull the trigger. Its just a short click and I don't know if that would be enough to set off a primer, but I sure wouldn't want to find out. The thumb safety doesn't work in this position either.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:59:28 PM EDT
I'm not talking about half cocked. I would keep the hammer all the way down. Other than having to cock it in an emergency, I can't see the disadvantage. I don't have a Springfield, only a Kimber and a Brown. I might just keep it CL anyway.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:11:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
I'm not talking about half cocked. I would keep the hammer all the way down. Other than having to cock it in an emergency, I can't see the disadvantage. I don't have a Springfield, only a Kimber and a Brown. I might just keep it CL anyway.



While a 1911 is very safe against going off when you drop it, lowering the hammer down to the firing pin removes one of the safeguards against a discharge. If you drop the gun and it lands on the hammer, there may be enough interia to fire the thing. Your Kimber has a firing pin safety, but the Brown doesn't. If the gun were cocked and dropped, the worst that could happen would be the sear ledge on the hammer could break and the hammer would fall. The half cock notch would prevent it from hitting the firing pin though.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:11:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

Originally Posted By ORinTX:


The older 1911s aren't drop safe.



Upon what do you base this?



They didn't have firing pin blocks, and therefore can fire when dropped due to the inertia of the firing pin.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:37:25 PM EDT
OrinTX write:

They didn't have firing pin blocks, and therefore can fire when dropped due to the inertia of the firing pin.

This is theoretically possible, but who has an expample of this occurring in reality?

The inertia firing pin/spring is itself a safety device, to prevent an AD if dropped vertically on the muzzle.

Example, although the SA guns pass the CA drop test using Ti firing pins, I remain unconvinced that this is necessary - the SA Bureau model passed the FBI drop test and throw test w/o a Ti firing pin.

Moreover, such a AD would merely go into the deck it if did occur (very unlikely event anyway). The resutling ricochet may or may not do any damage.

Does anyone have a documented AD occuring from either a drop test or real life? I've never encoutered one.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:12:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 3:12:46 PM EDT by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By a38337:
OrinTX write:

They didn't have firing pin blocks, and therefore can fire when dropped due to the inertia of the firing pin.

This is theoretically possible, but who has an expample of this occurring in reality?




Only in theory, you may well be right in that the reality is that it's highly unlikely / even impossible. I still prefer a 1911 with a firing pin block just for that extra .0000001% though.



Moreover, such a AD would merely go into the deck it if did occur (very unlikely event anyway). The resutling ricochet may or may not do any damage.



Here you missed my point, though. I wasn't talking about the AD causing damage directly, my point is that if I have my pistol at low ready after a shooting and the cops arrive on the scene before I've holstered it, I need to be able to immediately drop it and know it won't go off. The SOUND of the discharge could well be enough to startle the cops into putting me six feet under. It would be in my plan that once I've determined the threat is diminished, I reholster my gun -- however, I can't guarantee that I reach that point before the cops come on the scene. They will expect me to immediately drop it, providing they don't just shoot me on sight.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:52:27 PM EDT
I see. Will I guess its cocked and locked for me. I have a Warrior so no firing pin saftey on my Kimber.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:28:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

Originally Posted By ORinTX:


The older 1911s aren't drop safe.



Upon what do you base this?



They didn't have firing pin blocks, and therefore can fire when dropped due to the inertia of the firing pin.



What height will allow it to "go off?" Remember, we're talking about military style testing here. No 1911, no matter when it was made, is going to go off if dropped from hip level, with the possible exception of one that has a hammer resting on the firing pin and it lands on the hammer. If you drop an old 1911 off a 3 story building, onto concete and it lands directly on its muzzle and you have very soft primers and a weak firing pin spring, it might be possible to create enough intertia in the firing pin to set it off.

Now, weigh that possibility against the possiblilty that a grain of sand gets caught in the firin pin safety plunger of a Kimber or that the arm on your grip safety doesn't quite push up hard enough when you need to defend your life with it. Which is more likely?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:33:23 AM EDT
This card came in one of my old boxes of 1911A1 and I thought it pertinent to this discussion:

Please Read Carefully

The half-cock notch in the hammer in this pistol is not intended as a safety notch, but is mainly to prevent the hammer from following through. If the pistol is to be carried at any time with a cartridge in the chamber of the barrel, leave the hammer on full cock and put on the outside safety.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:42:10 AM EDT
The 1911 as designed for the military were meant to be carried condition 3, you have to remember the time the weapon was designed was still before the advent of the "modern" combat shooting techniques. At that time they still had magazine disconnects on rifles and shot pistols 1 handed bulls eye style.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:45:10 AM EDT
Some good points being brought up here:

The half-cock notch in the hammer in this pistol is not intended as a safety notch, but is mainly to prevent the hammer from following through. If the pistol is to be carried at any time with a cartridge in the chamber of the barrel, leave the hammer on full cock and put on the outside safety.

Right, the half-cock notch isn't used as a "safety" (such as carrying with the hammer at 1/2 cock), but it is a "safety feature": if the full cock notch fails, the 1/2cock is supposed to stop the hammer from falling.

The 1911 as designed for the military were meant to be carried condition 3, you have to remember the time the weapon was designed was still before the advent of the "modern" combat shooting techniques. At that time they still had magazine disconnects on rifles and shot pistols 1 handed bulls eye style.

I've heard that JMB wanted the gun carried in Cond 1, and also that he wanted it carried in Cond 3. My opinion (beware!) is that if JMB wanted the pistol carried cond 3 instead of 1, why did he include a thumb safety?

In the military, while in garrison (I was never in combat), I carried a 1911 in cond 3 with 5 rounds in the mag because they wanted to idiot proof the gun/loaded mag/18 yo private combo. Guess what? We still had guys who had NDs because they got bored and played around with the guns.

The M16 and M870 are also carried in Cond 3. Why? Again, the military is trying to be idiot proof. We thought it was great when we got to carry M9s in Cond 1.

When you go into combat, you better have all the above weapons in cond 1.

Here you missed my point, though. I wasn't talking about the AD causing damage directly, my point is that if I have my pistol at low ready after a shooting and the cops arrive on the scene before I've holstered it, I need to be able to immediately drop it and know it won't go off. The SOUND of the discharge could well be enough to startle the cops into putting me six feet under. It would be in my plan that once I've determined the threat is diminished, I reholster my gun -- however, I can't guarantee that I reach that point before the cops come on the scene. They will expect me to immediately drop it, providing they don't just shoot me on sight.

Speaking as a current armorer on several weapon systems, including Colt 1911s, dropping this pistol in the manner you describe, or a similar mannger will not cause or allow a discharge. It's that simple. In series 70 many things conspire to prevent this: full cock notch, 1/2 cock notch, grip safety, thumb safety, interia firing pin, disconnector.

If you really want a Firing Pin Block, get a series 80 and be done with it. I have both series 70 and 80, and feel fine with both.

Going back to carring in Cond 1, it's not unsafe in the least. As previously stated, a 1911 with grip safety depressed and thumb safety disengaged is equal in safety as a Glock.

Or, you could say that a 1911 in Cond 1 is 300 safer than a Glock.

Full disclosure, I love Glocks and am also a Glock armorer.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:58:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 8:59:50 AM EDT by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By a38337:
Speaking as a current armorer on several weapon systems, including Colt 1911s, dropping this pistol in the manner you describe, or a similar mannger will not cause or allow a discharge. It's that simple. In series 70 many things conspire to prevent this: full cock notch, 1/2 cock notch, grip safety, thumb safety, interia firing pin, disconnector.



As I said previously, I'm sure this probably is the case but I like having a series 80. You might say I prefer a series 80 just for the comfort it brings me and nothing else.

But just to be pedantic, the majority of the stuff you listed up there have nothing to do with preventing an inertia fire, which was what I was addressing.

For the record, I believe that if you're not comfortable carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, you shouldn't be carrying one. If you don't like looking at a cocked hammer, go get a Sig or an H/K. I carry sigs and glocks plenty too.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:21:42 PM EDT
I have carried Locked and cocked for 13 years now and never had or have I seen a ND (negligent discharge, there is no such thing as an AD) and I have carried in the worst of combat and high stress conditions

How confident and proficient are you with that weapon system..................once you know the answer to that then will be good to go.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:21:50 PM EDT
In the beginning it takes a little getting used to. Cocked and Locked is the way a 1911 is meant to be carried.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:29:52 PM EDT
As I said previously, I'm sure this probably is the case but I like having a series 80. You might say I prefer a series 80 just for the comfort it brings me and nothing else.

Nothing wrong with that. I have series 80 guns and like them very much.

But just to be pedantic, the majority of the stuff you listed up there have nothing to do with preventing an inertia fire, which was what I was addressing.

The inertia firing pin prevents an inertia fire (drop fire).

This is proven by CA DOJ tests on the following pistols, ALL of which lack firing pin blocks:

Ed Brown KC-SS-CAL / Stainless Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP 6/24/06
Ed Brown Executive Target "ET-BB-CAL" / Carbon Steel
Kimber Warrior / Blue Steel Pistol 5" 45 ACP 12/29/06
Les Baer (all below)
Concept I (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Concept I / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Concept II (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Concept II / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Custom Carry (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/25/06
Custom Carry / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/25/06
DCM National Match Hardball 5" / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 9/12/06
PPC Distinguished (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
PPC Distinguished / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Premier II (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Premier II / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
S.R.P. (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
S.R.P. / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Super Tac / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Super Tack (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Thunder Ranch (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/14/06
Thunder Ranch / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/14/06
Ultimate Master Combat (1.5" Group) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Ultimate Master Combat / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/30/06
Nighthawk Custom (all below)
Talon IV (Black/Blue) / Steel Pistol 3.65" .45 ACP 12/14/06
Talon IV (Black/Sniper Gray) / Steel Pistol 3.65" .45 ACP 12/14/06
Talon IV / Steel Pistol 3.65" .45 ACP 12/14/06
Predator II (Black/Blue) / Steel Pistol 4" 45 ACP 12/29/06
Predator II (Black/Sniper Gray) / Steel Pistol 4" 45 ACP 12/29/06
Talon II / Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP 10/21/06
Talon III (Black/Blue) / Steel Pistol 4.25" 45 ACP 12/29/06
Talon III (Black/Sniper Gray) / Steel Pistol 4.25" 45 ACP 12/29/06
Predator III (Black/Sniper Gray) / Steel Pistol 4.33" .45 Auto 11/1/06
Predator III (Black/Titanium Blue) / Steel Pistol 4.33" .45 Auto 11/1/06
Predator III-T / Steel Pistol 4.33" .45 Auto 10/21/06
GRP / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/21/06
GRP RECON / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/29/06
Predator (Blue) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/21/06
Predator (Sniper Gray) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/21/06
Predator / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/4/06
Talon (Blue) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/21/06
Talon (Sniper Gray) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/21/06
Talon / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/4/06
Talon II (Black/Sniper Gray) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/1/06
Talon II (Black/Titanium Blue) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/1/06
Springfield Armory (all below)
PX9801L (ambi safety) / Alloy, Stainless Steel Pistol 3" .45 ACP 12/20/06
PX9801L / Alloy, Stainless Steel Pistol 3" .45 ACP 12/20/06
PX9802L / Alloy, Stainless Steel Pistol 3" .45 ACP 8/13/06
PX9804L / Alloy, Stainless Steel Pistol 3" .45 ACP 1/17/06
PX9805L / Alloy, Stainless Steel Pistol 3" .45 ACP 1/17/06
PX9806L / Stainless Steel Pistol 3" .45 ACP 9/22/06
PX9808L / Blue Steel Pistol 3" .45 ACP 9/6/06
XD9801 / Composite, Steel Pistol 3" 9 mm 3/19/06
XD9810 / Composite, Steel Pistol 3" 9 mm 7/29/06
XD9811 / Composite, Steel Pistol 3" 9 mm 4/7/06
XD9802 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 3.01" .40 S&W 10/25/06
XD9812 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 3.01" .40 S&W 3/10/06
XD9821 / Polymer, Stainless Steel Pistol 3.1" 9 mm 3/23/06
XD9822 / Polymer, Stainless Steel Pistol 3.1" .40 ACP 2/18/06
PX9510L (ambi safety) / Stainless, Blue Carbon Steel Pistol 3.25" .45 ACP 2/20/06
PX9510L / Stainless, Blue Carbon Steel Pistol 3.25" .45 ACP 2/20/06
PB9162L / Carbon Steel Pistol 3.5" .45 10/4/06
PX9161L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 3.5" .45 ACP 12/31/06
PX9161L / Stainless Steel Pistol 3.5" .45 ACP 12/31/06
PX9171L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 3.5" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PX9171L / Stainless Steel Pistol 3.5" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PX9301L (ambi safety) / Carbon Steel Pistol 3.5" .45 ACP 12/31/06
PX9301L / Carbon Steel Pistol 3.5" .45 ACP 12/31/06
PX9505L / Alloy, Stainless Steel Pistol 3.5" 9 mm 9/6/06
XD9524 / Polymer, Stainless Steel Pistol 4' .45 GAP 9/26/06
PX9142L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 4" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PX9142L / Stainless Steel Pistol 4" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PX9503L (ambi safety) / Alloy, Steel Pistol 4" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PX9503L / Alloy, Steel Pistol 4" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PX9511L (ambi safety) / Carbon Steel Pistol 4" .45 ACP 12/31/06
PX9511L / Carbon Steel Pistol 4" .45 ACP 12/31/06
XD9701 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4" 9 mm 5/9/06
XD9702 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4" .40 S & W 9/6/06
PW9142L / Carbon Steel Pistol 4.0" .45 10/4/06
PX9149L / Alloy, Carbon Steel Pistol 4.0" .45 10/4/06
XD9504 / Polymer, Carbon Steel Pistol 4.05" .45 3/23/06
XD9101 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9 mm 10/21/06
XD9101LE / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9 mm 10/21/06
XD9102 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S&W 12/20/06
XD9102LE / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S&W 12/20/06
XD9103 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .357 Sig 12/20/06
XD9103LE / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .357 Sig 12/20/06
XD9104 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9 mm 3/21/06
XD9109 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S&W 3/21/06
XD9201 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9 mm 3/26/06
XD9202 / Composite, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S&W 3/26/06
XD9301 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9 mm 1/17/06
XD9302 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S&W 1/17/06
XD9501 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9 mm 12/3/06
XD9502 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S & W 12/3/06
PB9108L / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/8/06
PB9113L (ambi safety) / Steel Pistol 5" .38 Super 9/20/06
PB9113L / Steel Pistol 5" .38 Super 9/20/06
PB9114L / Steel Pistol 5" .38 Super 7/29/06
PB9151L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/19/06
PB9609L / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/30/06
PC9102 / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 12/3/06
PC9105L (ambi safety) / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/20/06
PC9105L / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/20/06
PC9106L / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/22/06
PC9107L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/29/06
PC9107L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/29/06
PC9108L (ambi safety) / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/29/06
PC9108L / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/29/06
PC9111 (ambi safety) / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/29/06
PC9111 / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/29/06
PC9111LR / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 7/21/06
PC9206 / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 5/9/06
PI9132L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/26/06
PI9132L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/26/06
PI9134L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" 9 mm 4/26/06
PI9134L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" 9 mm 4/26/06
PI9140L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PI9140L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/27/06
PW 9609L / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/21/06
PW9108L / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/22/06
PW9151L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/30/06
PX9103L (ambi safety) / Alloy, Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/8/06
PX9103L / Alloy, Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/8/06
PX9104L / Alloy, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 5/9/06
PX9105L / Blue Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/6/06
PX9106L / Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/22/06
PX9109L (ambi safety) / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/8/06
PX9109L / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/8/06
PX9130L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" 9 mm 12/31/06
PX9130L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" 9 mm 12/31/06
PX9151L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/20/06
PX9151L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/20/06
PX9152L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 5/9/06
PX9154L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 10/25/06
PX9181L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 12/31/06
PX9181L / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 12/31/06
PX9608L (ambi safety) / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/26/06
PX9608L / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/26/06
PX9609L / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 7/31/06
XD9402 Tactical / Polymer, Steel Pistol 5" .40 S & W 9/6/06
XD9405 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 5" .40 S & W 12/3/06
XD9525 / Polymer, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 GAP 9/26/06
PX9105ML / Carbon Steel Pistol 5.0" .45 ACP 10/25/06
XD9401 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 5.01" 9 mm 3/10/06
XD9404 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 5.01" 9 mm 6/23/06
XD9505 / Polymer, Carbon Steel Pistol 5.01" .45 3/23/06
PX9129L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 6" .45 ACP 2/20/06
PX9129L / Stainless Steel Pistol 6" .45 ACP 2/20/06
PX9628L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 6" .45 ACP 2/8/06
PX9628L / Stainless Steel Pistol 6" .45 ACP 2/8/06
PX9629L (ambi safety) / Stainless Steel Pistol 6" .45 1/29/06
PX9629L / Stainless Steel Pistol 6" .45 1/29/06
Strayer Voight
Infinity Trad. Target Pistol / Stainless Steel, Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 7/23/06
Infinity Comp. Target / Stainless Steel, Polymer Pistol 5.190" .45 ACP 4/2/06
Wilson Combat
Wilson Sentinel Tactical WS-T-ACA BLACK / Black Steel Pistol 3.75" .45 ACP 12/29/06
WCQBC-T-A-CA / Carbon Steel Pistol 4" .45 ACP 2/27/06
Wilson Stealth (WSDS-A-ACA) / Blue Steel Pistol 4.1" .45 ACP 12/19/06
Tactical Elite, Ambi, AT / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/14/06
WCQB-T-A-CA / Carbon Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/27/06
Wilson Classic Ambi 2-Tone (WC-A-TTSCA) / Blue(Black) Steel/Stainless Pistol 5" 45 ACP 12/29/06
Wilson CQB, Ambi, AT Tac Light Rail (WCQB-AL-CA) / Blue Steel (Armor Tuff Finish Pistol 5" .45 ACP 12/29/06
Wilson Super Grade, Two-Tone (WSG-A-TT CA) / Blue/Stainless Pistol 5" .45 ACP 12/19/06
Wilson Tactical Super Grade (WTSG-A-ACA) / Blue Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 12/19/06
WKZ-T-PA-CA / Carbon Steel, Polymer Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/27/06
Wilson's Combat Protector WPS-A-SS CA / Stainless Steel Pistol 5'" .45 ACP 11/16/06


Springfield and Les Baer have supplied 1911 to the FBI, which passed a more stringent drop test than CA DOJ, again, with no firing pin blocks.


From http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/labcert.htm

12128. As used in this chapter, the "drop safety requirement for handguns" means that at the conclusion of the firing requirements for handguns described in Section 12127, the same certified independent testing laboratory shall subject the same three handguns of the make and model for which certification is sought, to the following test:
A primed case (no powder or projectile) shall be inserted into the chamber. For pistols, the slide shall be released, allowing it to move forward under the impetus of the recoil spring, and an empty magazine shall be inserted. For both pistols and revolvers, the weapon shall be placed in a drop fixture capable of dropping the pistol from a drop height of 1m + 1cm (39.4 + 0.4 in.) onto the largest side of a slab of solid concrete having minimum dimensions of 7.5 X 15 X 15 cm (3 X 6 X 6 in.). The drop distance shall be measured from the lowermost portion of the weapon to the top surface of the slab. The weapon shall be dropped from a fixture and not from the hand. The weapon shall be dropped in the condition that it would be in if it were dropped from a hand (cocked with no manual safety applied). If the design of a pistol is such that upon leaving the hand a "safety" is automatically applied by the pistol, this feature shall not be defeated. An approved drop fixture is a short piece of string with the weapon attached at one end and the other end held in an air vise until the drop is initiated.
The following six drops shall be performed:
(a) Normal firing position with barrel horizontal.
(b) Upside down with barrel horizontal.
(c) On grip with barrel vertical.
(d) On muzzle with barrel vertical.
(e) On either side with barrel horizontal.
(f) If there is an exposed hammer or striker, on the rearmost point of that device, otherwise on the rearmost point of the weapon.
The primer shall be examined for indentations after each drop. If indentations are present, a fresh primed case shall be used for the next drop.
The handgun shall pass this test if each of the three test guns does not fire the primer.


For the record, I believe that if you're not comfortable carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, you shouldn't be carrying one. If you don't like looking at a cocked hammer, go get a Sig or an H/K. I carry sigs and glocks plenty too.

I concur.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:07:11 PM EDT
I don't think I'd use the term "foolproof", but I think the cocked and locked 1911 is at least as safe as any other type of handgun, including double-action handguns carried hammer down.

For some reason, people seem to think that the cocked hammer is unsafe. Nobody seems to be concerned that every rifle in the world is cocked and locked when there's a round in the chamber. I believe that ignorant people are scared of the visible cocked hammer on the 1911. You just have to get it through your head that there is no way the hammer could possibly fall without disengaging the grip safety, thumb safety, and pulling the trigger. In addition to the half-cock notch, the thumb safety in the on position physically blocks the movement of the hammer. Even if the sear disappeared entirely, the hammer still wouldn't fall.

This site has an even more detailed description of why cocked and locked is perfectly safe.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:56:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By a38337:
Some good points being brought up here:

The half-cock notch in the hammer in this pistol is not intended as a safety notch, but is mainly to prevent the hammer from following through. If the pistol is to be carried at any time with a cartridge in the chamber of the barrel, leave the hammer on full cock and put on the outside safety.

Right, the half-cock notch isn't used as a "safety" (such as carrying with the hammer at 1/2 cock), but it is a "safety feature": if the full cock notch fails, the 1/2cock is supposed to stop the hammer from falling.



I was specifically quoting this (had to get my scanner running again). I actually thought it implied it's a safety feature. The important part of what it says is if you carry with a round in the chamber, leave it cocked and put the safety on. At some point, it was recommended by the manufacturer in other words. It came in a box of Colt at one point:



Cheers,

kk7sm
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:21:15 AM EDT
Looks like we dispelled the myth about the gun firing when dropped.

I wonder how many people have been scared away from 1911s because of it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:23:08 AM EDT
If you are really nervous about it, try this: Leave the pistol unloaded but have it cocked and locked. Then wear it around your house and do all of your normal activities and see if the hammer falls. Then do some radical movments (Curtains closed so as not to scare the neighbors) to see if you can get the hammer to fall. At the end of this, you should be over your apprehension about carrying it C&L.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:52:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 11:00:55 AM EDT by 53vortec]
.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:14:57 AM EDT
I also wonder why folks get worked up about a cocked single action and not about a glock. I guess it looks scarier.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:17:42 AM EDT
I've carried or used:

Single Actions:

1911= No AD
Browning Hi-Power= No AD
Desert Eagle= No AD

M16A2 = No AD
M60E3 = No AD
M249 S.A.W.= No AD
M14 = No AD
Remington 870= No AD
Mossburg 590A1 = No AD
M242 Bushmaster = No AD
M134 minigun = No AD

Double (or Other) Action

Glocks = No AD
Berretta M9= No AD
HK USP 45F= No AD
HK MK23= No AD
Ruger Blakhawk=No AD
Henry Lever Action = No AD

Carry it cocked and locked, Bud. You'll be better off.

Arbiter
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:54:38 PM EDT
i just started carrying my Kimber CPD Ultra II and doing it in the C& L position. I've carried a D/A for years. It does feel weird looking down and seeing the hammer cocked. I feel a lot better after reading the opinions in this post. Thank's to the experienced for sharring the info..........
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top