Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 10.5 inch group at 25 with WWB and a 1911?  I think your gun is bent. No, more likely the nut behind the grip safety is loose. Well, I am a Gunsite and other school graduate...what do you think is wrong with that? If you don't practice after the school, what do you think will be wrong? Let's qualify the statements a bit more.  I had hunted for years with a rifle and shotgun before the USMC.  I qualified Expert, but that did not make me a pistol shooter.  Heck, I shot my Dad's little Llama .22, even propped myself and held steady on a surface and I couldn't hit a pop can at 7 yards with it.  I thought the gun was defective, much like the original post must think.  After buying a Ruger Mark II and learning to shoot with thousands of rounds down range, I bought my Dad's little Llama.  Guess what, there wasn't a thing wrong with that gun and it is nicely accurate. There is nothing wrong with shooting a rimfire, which is where I recommend learning trigger control, grip, stance, breathing, and sight alignment/sight picture.   This is usually what it takes, thousands of rounds down range before you can get it together.  My first 1911 was not the easiest to shoot.  I was off and on with accuracy, until I built some steel plate targets and started shooting mainly outdoors.  It seemed to all come together.  I then shot a couple IDPA and IPSC matches.  Certainly not "gamer fast", but I kill what I see and would likely do well in a gun battle.   Combine that with the pressure of having 20 SASS shooters behind you on a stage, and knowing that if you screw up, even a little, that you will never hear the end of it.   End result is years of practice, tens of thousands of rounds down range.  A class or two isn't going to get you there.  A few hard lined basics and practice will get you there.

I have a private range with paper and steel, and a Dillon 1050.  I shot 700 rounds yesterday, what did you do?

Want pics?  I speak the truth.

Quoted: Just to clear something up, I don't normally shoot off the bench.  The groups I shot we're not off the bench they were, unsupported.  My point was a 5 shot group at 25 yards landing in a 3" group, counting the two farthest away bullet holes measuring center to center in my estimation is super good shooting, from a rest.  That's why I have a really hard time believing you when you say you can keep your 1991 within 3" at 25 yards unsupported.  That's why I'd like, if people want to participate, to do this arfcom internet postal match.  You can get pissed at me and I can be all wet but I just don't see how this is true.  3" unsupported at 25 yards.  Consistently.  It just doesn't compute to me.  If you shoot like that, wouldn't you be winning like the national matches or something like that?  Like I said before, maybe we have like some of the best shooters in the world on here but some of this just seems unreasonable to me.  I'm not saying I don't need to practice a whole bunch.  I just got the thing this christmas.  And I shoot rifles alot too.  So I probably need to practice alot more. And if you would like to participate in this internet postal match.  I think it would be fun.  And then I can see how everyone does, a picture of it. Texas sig, I probably got right around that through it. 500 rounds. marksman14.  I wouldn't mind at all.  Just post pics!!!

Not trying to flame here, but it seems like you're using your "disbelief" to compensate for the fact that deep down inside you know that you need practice.  Alot of the guys here shoot hundreds of rounds a week.  Over the course of a year, that's a LOT of practice.

If you shoot like that, wouldn't you be winning like the national matches or something like that?

 See the above 50 YARD comment.

I'm not saying I don't need to practice a whole bunch.

Well, you sorta are.  You're insinuating that the people here really can't shoot that well (3") at 25 yards, and that your groups are really OK.

I'm not trying to be a knob, I'm just wanting to learn

Yet, you're doubting so many more experienced shooters who are trying to offer advice .  

Get formal instruction.  Shoot a LOT of .22.  Don't switch to so many different handguns in one session (especially if you're not improving with one before switching to the other).  Don't keep moving the target further away if you're not satisfied with the close range groups, they're not going to get any better.  

Rich

Quoted: Quoted: Just to clear something up, I don't normally shoot off the bench.  The groups I shot we're not off the bench they were, unsupported.  My point was a 5 shot group at 25 yards landing in a 3" group, counting the two farthest away bullet holes measuring center to center in my estimation is super good shooting, from a rest.  That's why I have a really hard time believing you when you say you can keep your 1991 within 3" at 25 yards unsupported.  That's why I'd like, if people want to participate, to do this arfcom internet postal match.  You can get pissed at me and I can be all wet but I just don't see how this is true.  3" unsupported at 25 yards.  Consistently.  It just doesn't compute to me.  If you shoot like that, wouldn't you be winning like the national matches or something like that?  Like I said before, maybe we have like some of the best shooters in the world on here but some of this just seems unreasonable to me.  I'm not saying I don't need to practice a whole bunch.  I just got the thing this christmas.  And I shoot rifles alot too.  So I probably need to practice alot more. And if you would like to participate in this internet postal match.  I think it would be fun.  And then I can see how everyone does, a picture of it. Texas sig, I probably got right around that through it. 500 rounds. marksman14.  I wouldn't mind at all.  Just post pics!!!   Not trying to flame here, but it seems like you're using your "disbelief" to compensate for the fact that deep down inside you know that you need practice.  Alot of the guys here shoot hundreds of rounds a week.  Over the course of a year, that's a LOT of practice. If you shoot like that, wouldn't you be winning like the national matches or something like that?  See the above 50 YARD comment. I'm not saying I don't need to practice a whole bunch. Well, you sorta are.  You're insinuating that the people here really can't shoot that well (3") at 25 yards, and that your groups are really OK. I'm not trying to be a knob, I'm just wanting to learn Yet, you're doubting so many more experienced shooters who are trying to offer advice .   Get formal instruction.  Shoot a LOT of .22.  Don't switch to so many different handguns in one session (especially if you're not improving with one before switching to the other).  Don't keep moving the target further away if you're not satisfied with the close range groups, they're not going to get any better.   Rich

Trumpet, I knew someone would say this sooner or later.  Look, it's like I said before.  I want the truth.  I've seen guys claim all kinds of things and not deliver.  For example.  I went to my range one day and there was a guy and his kid shooting.  We were all shooting our pistols and he came over and pointed out that he had a 6" x 6" steel plate sitting at about 120 yards on our berm.  He then told me he could hit it with my 1911.  I told him I just have crappy WWB ammo but he could go ahead and give it a rip.  I let him shoot a clip and he never once hit it.  He did come close.  And so did I when I tried.  Now this isn't necessarily the same thing but my point is alot of times the truth is like a little bit worse than what people claim is the norm.  That's why I'm saying we could do a postal match.  Then all things are equal.  Or as close as possible.  What could it hurt???  If indeed people shoot that well, then I'll be amazed and  will have learned how well these guys on here actually shoot.  In fact, I think it would be a very good benchmark for people to compare to.  It's obvious I'm not as good a shooter as proabably most the people on here.  But what's wrong with knowing exactly how good people shoot ???  You're saying I should just believe what everyone is saying just because.  Well I don't see it that way.  I think it would be alot of fun too.  They did it on battlerifles and it seemed the guys had a blast!  I wouldn't have started the thread if I didn't want to learn, but again lets have some sort of criteria.  Because at this point, the benchmark for what is good shooting is all over the place.  We see 10 yards, 15, 20, and 25.  Different round counts, etc. etc.  If people don't like my criteria someone could suggest another.  But I think my criteria is good.  10 rounds, 25 yards, slow fire target, in less than 3 minutes.  Then post results.  I think it'll be fun.  I'd like to start it off to get the ball rolling but I'm not sure when I'm getting to the range again.  Maybe I'll go sometime b4 work this week.  

Quoted: Just to clear something up, I don't normally shoot off the bench.  The groups I shot we're not off the bench they were, unsupported.  My point was a 5 shot group at 25 yards landing in a 3" group, counting the two farthest away bullet holes measuring center to center in my estimation is super good shooting, from a rest.  That's why I have a really hard time believing you when you say you can keep your 1991 within 3" at 25 yards unsupported.  That's why I'd like, if people want to participate, to do this arfcom internet postal match.  You can get pissed at me and I can be all wet but I just don't see how this is true.  3" unsupported at 25 yards.  Consistently.  It just doesn't compute to me.  If you shoot like that, wouldn't you be winning like the national matches or something like that?  Like I said before, maybe we have like some of the best shooters in the world on here but some of this just seems unreasonable to me.  I'm not saying I don't need to practice a whole bunch.  I just got the thing this christmas.  And I shoot rifles alot too.  So I probably need to practice alot more. And if you would like to participate in this internet postal match.  I think it would be fun.  And then I can see how everyone does, a picture of it. Texas sig, I probably got right around that through it. 500 rounds. marksman14.  I wouldn't mind at all.  Just post pics!!!

Well, 500 rounds should deal with the flinching, if that is what it is.  So, maybe there is something else going on.

I know you are rolling your eyes, but I too can shoot 3-4" groups or so at 25 yards with my Dan Wesson Razorback, unsupported with both hands.  You said in your original post that you don't have this problem with other handguns, just the 1911.  But, when others say they don't have troubles with their 1911's you doubt it?

Truth is the 1911 is a very different grip angle from lots of guns ESPECIALLY GLOCKS. If you shoot Glocks regularly and well, I would not be surprised at all to see you have problems with 1911's.  

I think a postal online posted match is a good idea, they are fun.  Over on another forum I visit, the high road dot org, we do posted matches every month or so.  

But truly, no bragging, 3-4" groups at 25 yards is not a "superhuman" feat.  It's tough, and takes practice, but you shouldn't doubt that it's possible.  

And truly, with a .22 auto of reasonable accuracy, you should be shooting 2-3" groups at 15 yards.

What stance do you use?

Have you ever had formal handgun training?  It does make a huge difference.

Have you ever shot competetively?  Again, this will make a huge difference

3-4" at 25 yards for a well practiced 1911 shooter with good ammo and a good pistol is not unusual at all.

So, let's try it and see.  Also keep in mind that the people in this forum, in a lot of cases, make shooting one of their top 2 or 3 favorite things to do.  I literally run 12-15,000 rounds a year through a handgun of some sort.
It's not a now and then thing.  

And the best advice I have seen here is "Practice with a PURPOSE"  Just putting rounds downrange doesn't do  a heck of a lot of good.

Someone want to type up the rules for our online match?  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Practice does not make perfect.  Perfect practice makes perfect. I always say you need to practice with a purpose.  I see so many people come to the range and blast off 100 rounds in 15 min on one target.  They don't have a clue where each individual round is landing on the target.  Without knowing which rounds are landing wide how can you learn what you are doing to make them land wide.  Likewise the centered rounds...  Was it luck or did you do something different to make the hole in the center of the target? That said... I play the bulleye game (although not very well compared to a good shooter).  With one hand I'll keep the .22 LR inside 3" at 25 yards.  I shoot low 90's all the time on the 50 foot (17 yard) NRA slow fire target.  Using two hands, I can keep my stock 1991 in 3" at 25 yards. To achieve this, I shoot 30-50 rounds (with a purpose) 3-4 times a week on my lunch hour as long as the weather is warm enough (40's and above). Based on the groups you are showing, I'd recomend shooting off the bench to work on trigger pull.  When you make small groups off the bench with your new improved trigger pull, then work on shooting unsupported.  Do this for each gun as you move up in power level.  It should only take 100-200 rounds starting with the .22 then many fewer with the more powerful handguns once you master the .22. Kent Just to clear something up, I don't normally shoot off the bench.  The groups I shot we're not off the bench they were, unsupported.  My point was a 5 shot group at 25 yards landing in a 3" group, counting the two farthest away bullet holes measuring center to center in my estimation is super good shooting, from a rest.  That's why I have a really hard time believing you when you say you can keep your 1991 within 3" at 25 yards unsupported.  That's why I'd like, if people want to participate, to do this arfcom internet postal match.  You can get pissed at me and I can be all wet but I just don't see how this is true.  3" unsupported at 25 yards.  Consistently.  It just doesn't compute to me.  If you shoot like that, wouldn't you be winning like the national matches or something like that?  Like I said before, maybe we have like some of the best shooters in the world on here but some of this just seems unreasonable to me.  I'm not saying I don't need to practice a whole bunch.  I just got the thing this christmas.  And I shoot rifles alot too.  So I probably need to practice alot more. And if you would like to participate in this internet postal match.  I think it would be fun.  And then I can see how everyone does, a picture of it. Texas sig, I probably got right around that through it. 500 rounds. marksman14.  I wouldn't mind at all.  Just post pics!!!

Ooooh...  You couldn't have played into my hand more perfectly...  Thank you.

I shot this today on my lunch hour.

ONE HAND (Classic bullseye style), 25 yards, unmodified Ruger MK II (with about 50,000 rounds through it...  hint, hint), el cheapo Winchester Wildcat ammo:



I was plinking at 50 yards last time I shot this pistol so the sights aren't perfectly zeroed, but you get the idea.   2 3/4" center to center of the widest shots.  If I hadn't pulled the one shot to the lower right of the group my group size would have been 1 3/4".

An olympic level shooter would put them all in the "X" ring at 50 meters.  But that's the difference between practicing 30 minutes a day or 8 hours a day.

Kent

Looks like you need some dry fireing practice.

Texas Sig, I don't shoot that well with any of my pistols.  But it seems like I shoot better with the others.  But thanks for the post.  I guess it's sinking in that maybe alot of you guys really can shoot 3" at 25 yards.  When you say that do you mean 5 rounds or more?

Either way the postal match would be fun, and like I said, it can give us newbies a goal to shoot for.  And it will be cool to see peoples targets.  Maybe I'll just start out shooting my Ruger .22  I did break it out for the first time in a while the other day.  Maybe I just need to shoot it for a while to get better.  And take a course or something.  I never have.  Thank you for posting.

I shot this today on my lunch hour.

ONE HAND (Classic bullseye style), 25 yards, unmodified Ruger MK II (with about 50,000 rounds through it... hint, hint), el cheapo Winchester Wildcat ammo:

I'm starting to get the point.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/green_c/112_1212.jpg

I was plinking at 50 yards last time I shot this pistol so the sights aren't perfectly zeroed, but you get the idea.   2 3/4" center to center of the widest shots.  If I hadn't pulled the one shot to the lower right of the group my group size would have been 1 3/4".


Very cool Our first contestant.  Outstanding!  Good shooting.  I like this.  I hope someone else joins in!  I wonder if we should start a new thread and mark it postal match??

Quoted: I'm starting to get the point. Very cool Our first contestant.  Outstanding!  Good shooting.  I like this.  I hope someone else joins in!  I wonder if we should start a new thread and mark it postal match??

Great!  I'm glad you believe it's possible.  That's the first step to success.  Now you just have to believe you to can do it with enough practice.  Then all you have to do is practice.

If I may suggest some things I found helpful:

When I say practice with a purpose and then recomend shooting 100-200 rounds off the bench, the purpose is to develop the confidence your gun can shoot small groups.  In the process of developing this confidence you will develop a good trigger pull because a jerked trigger will not make small groups.  As you do this, pay attention to how putting your trigger finger on the trigger in different ways can affect the location of the group on the target  (I have a routine I use to find the same spot on my trigger finger to pull the trigger each time when shooting bullseye.)  You will also learn with this exercise how pulling the trigger at an angle (instead of straight back) will pull the shots.

Once you have proven to yourself you can shoot good groups with your gun try standing up with two hands.  Now you get to play with your wobble zone.  Everyone wobbles.  I may wobble less than you and an olympic shooter wobbles less than me but the key is make the shot go off when the sights are centered on the target,  WITHOUT JERKING THE TRIGGER!!!  Remember that great trigger pull you developed on the bench?  This is not the time to forget it...  The same rules apply...  Squeeze don't jerk.

Then when you think you are doing ok, try it one handed.  I found it very difficult at first.  But when I went back to 2 handed shooting the gun looked like it was clamped in a vise making two handed shoot sooo much easier.  I now shoot one handed left hand sometimes because it forces me to pay attention to the basics again.  Like teaching myself to shoot for the first time again.

I will admit I do have issues with recoil.  I'll be able for instance to go out tomorrow and shoot a 3" group two handed with my .45, but if I try one handed it will open up to 5" until I get enough rounds down range "with a purpose" to overcome the little flinch I get.  But when that's done its 3" groups with one hand and maybe slightly smaller with two.  (I hesitate to say the gun isn't any more accurate than that, lest I get roasted for claiming it's the gun not me. )

I made the mistake of buying a .41 Magnum for my second pistol after the .22 Ruger in the picture.  It took a full summer and 1000 rounds before I mastered it.  Recoil is an amazing deterant to good accuracy, so don't jump too quickly into the .45 since the purpose here is to master the pistol.  I'm not saying don't shoot it, but shoot one mag of .45 then enough .22 "with a purpose" to rid yourself of any flinch.  You'll see the flinch with the .22 because you are it's master now...  If a shot doesn't go where it was supposed to you either had a bad round of ammo (not likely) or you flinched.  The good news is when you you can flip between the .45 and the .22 w/o having to correct the flinch you have now "mastered" the .45.  Or at east you should be able to shoot it as well as the .22

Google bullseye pistol for articles on the finer points of pistol shooting.  My only other recomendation is start at 50 feet (17 yards) it's far enough to be a challenge but if your eyesight and light is good you'll be able to see .22 bullet holes w/o having to use binoculars for every shot.  Every shot?  Yes, you call where the shot landed based on where the sights were when the gun fired, then look for the bullet hole.  If the holes don't match your calls your flinching or jerking.

Happy practicing!

Kent

BTW I'm all for a postal match... Sounds like fun.

Quoted: Texas Sig, I don't shoot that well with any of my pistols.  But it seems like I shoot better with the others.  But thanks for the post.  I guess it's sinking in that maybe alot of you guys really can shoot 3" at 25 yards.  When you say that do you mean 5 rounds or more? Either way the postal match would be fun, and like I said, it can give us newbies a goal to shoot for.  And it will be cool to see peoples targets.  Maybe I'll just start out shooting my Ruger .22  I did break it out for the first time in a while the other day.  Maybe I just need to shoot it for a while to get better.  And take a course or something.  I never have.  Thank you for posting.

 

Sure, a one magazine (8 rounds for me, doesn't matter) average.  Everyone has a flyer now and then.

But yeah, I'd think best 5 out of a magazine should do, that would leave one or two flyers for the .45 folks.

The soonest I can get to the range is tomorrow afternoon, I will post my target then.
It will be 8 rounds of 10mm, from my 5" 1911, DanWesson Razorback, at 25yds.  thats as far
as I can go because the indoor range I use doesn't have a longer lane.

Will be fun, and a good excuse for us to really try. Not totally fair for people shooting 10mm and .45 against .22, but I'll go up against anyone for fun like this, why not.

Thank you guys for helping me to understand.  I hope more guys participate in this postal match.  

Green Canoe, I'm very interested to see your 10MM peform.  WOW.  I might have to put mine on the bench to even hit the target!  Oh well.  Thanks for posting.

Texas sig,  I wouldn't worry about "competing" against .22's.  Most of us will realize it's easier to shoot one of those than a .45.  I think my first one will be with a .22 but you'll kill me anyways.  I think it'd be fun to see how people do with non 1911's too.  Heck even glocks are welcome, in my thinking.

You said Glock, Eeewwwwww  

when i started shooting pistols i could not hit a 8x11 paper after about 150rds i could group 6" at 15-20 yards with 10 rds

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 10.5 inch group at 25 with WWB and a 1911?  I think your gun is bent. No, more likely the nut behind the grip safety is loose. Well, I am a Gunsite and other school graduate...what do you think is wrong with that? If you don't practice after the school, what do you think will be wrong? Let's qualify the statements a bit more.  I had hunted for years with a rifle and shotgun before the USMC.  I qualified Expert, but that did not make me a pistol shooter.  Heck, I shot my Dad's little Llama .22, even propped myself and held steady on a surface and I couldn't hit a pop can at 7 yards with it.  I thought the gun was defective, much like the original post must think.  After buying a Ruger Mark II and learning to shoot with thousands of rounds down range, I bought my Dad's little Llama.  Guess what, there wasn't a thing wrong with that gun and it is nicely accurate. There is nothing wrong with shooting a rimfire, which is where I recommend learning trigger control, grip, stance, breathing, and sight alignment/sight picture.   This is usually what it takes, thousands of rounds down range before you can get it together.  My first 1911 was not the easiest to shoot.  I was off and on with accuracy, until I built some steel plate targets and started shooting mainly outdoors.  It seemed to all come together.  I then shot a couple IDPA and IPSC matches.  Certainly not "gamer fast", but I kill what I see and would likely do well in a gun battle.   Combine that with the pressure of having 20 SASS shooters behind you on a stage, and knowing that if you screw up, even a little, that you will never hear the end of it.   End result is years of practice, tens of thousands of rounds down range.  A class or two isn't going to get you there.  A few hard lined basics and practice will get you there. I have a private range with paper and steel, and a Dillon 1050.  I shot 700 rounds yesterday, what did you do? Want pics?  I speak the truth.

What are you trying to read into this?  Yesterday I barbequed some chicken, built a face framed cabinet, made Cincinnati-style Chili, served 3 way, swam in the pool, cleaned some guns, had some Martinis, shot some pool, went to Home Depot, and then Cold Stone Creamery.

(I went to the range the day before)  ....and my pecker is bigger than yours.  Get real.  

*DELETED FOR POSTING OFF TOPIC AND AFTER RE-READING IT SOUNDED ARROGANT WHEN THAT WASNT THE INTENT.

Quoted: After doing Force on Force with a well known trainer and simunitions, I have switched to practicing ONLY shooting steel COM plates at 5-10 yards WITHOUT sights. In the simuntions fights everytime I tried to line up the sights at bad breath distance or my feet stopped moving while away from cover or retreating, I DIED. Force on Force TOTALLY changed my prespective on what occurs in CQB gunfight and made me re-assess my abilities.  I thought I was a pretty squared away shooter cause I could shoot nice little groups.   Man was I wrong.

I can shoot hand thrown soda cans out of the air with my pellet pistol.  Just 'cause someone shoots small groups doesn't mean they can't shoot fast or instinctively.

I will however admit I have never been to a proper combat school (not enough $ or time).  However,  I read as much as I can on the subject of tactics and try to practice as much as possible with my limited time.

I don't have the diploma to hang on the wall but I expect I'm in the 95%ile of all shooters when it  cames to the tactical aplication of a firearm, with the top 3% being those who went to a formal school.  (These stats are, of course, made up but I assume you get my point.)

Kent

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 10.5 inch group at 25 with WWB and a 1911?  I think your gun is bent. No, more likely the nut behind the grip safety is loose. Well, I am a Gunsite and other school graduate...what do you think is wrong with that? If you don't practice after the school, what do you think will be wrong? Let's qualify the statements a bit more.  I had hunted for years with a rifle and shotgun before the USMC.  I qualified Expert, but that did not make me a pistol shooter.  Heck, I shot my Dad's little Llama .22, even propped myself and held steady on a surface and I couldn't hit a pop can at 7 yards with it.  I thought the gun was defective, much like the original post must think.  After buying a Ruger Mark II and learning to shoot with thousands of rounds down range, I bought my Dad's little Llama.  Guess what, there wasn't a thing wrong with that gun and it is nicely accurate. There is nothing wrong with shooting a rimfire, which is where I recommend learning trigger control, grip, stance, breathing, and sight alignment/sight picture.   This is usually what it takes, thousands of rounds down range before you can get it together.  My first 1911 was not the easiest to shoot.  I was off and on with accuracy, until I built some steel plate targets and started shooting mainly outdoors.  It seemed to all come together.  I then shot a couple IDPA and IPSC matches.  Certainly not "gamer fast", but I kill what I see and would likely do well in a gun battle.   Combine that with the pressure of having 20 SASS shooters behind you on a stage, and knowing that if you screw up, even a little, that you will never hear the end of it.   End result is years of practice, tens of thousands of rounds down range.  A class or two isn't going to get you there.  A few hard lined basics and practice will get you there. I have a private range with paper and steel, and a Dillon 1050.  I shot 700 rounds yesterday, what did you do? Want pics?  I speak the truth. What are you trying to read into this?  Yesterday I barbequed some chicken, built a face framed cabinet, made Cincinnati-style Chili, served 3 way, swam in the pool, cleaned some guns, had some Martinis, shot some pool, went to Home Depot, and then Cold Stone Creamery. (I went to the range the day before)  ....and my pecker is bigger than yours.  Get real.

What I'm reading into this is that you said practice mattered until you ran up on someone who practices more than YOU do.  

I will await your 25 yard target.  And just to make things interesting, I'll shoot mine cold, and the first target will be the only one for score.

A gun, any gun, is only as accurate as the person pulling the trigger.

Quoted: After doing Force on Force with a well known trainer and simunitions, I have switched to practicing ONLY shooting steel COM plates at 5-10 yards WITHOUT sights. In the simuntions fights everytime I tried to line up the sights at bad breath distance or my feet stopped moving while away from cover or retreating, I DIED. Force on Force TOTALLY changed my prespective on what occurs in CQB gunfight and made me re-assess my abilities.  I thought I was a pretty squared away shooter cause I could shoot nice little groups.   Man was I wrong.

I agree with you 100%.  However, I didn't title this thread, "how tactical can I get" or "how fast should I be putting some one down so they're pushing up daisies".  I'm not minimizing the knowledge or skill to defend yourself well, and fast.  But at this point we are pretty much talking about "accuracy" overall.  I admit most shootings would be close, but for hunting and competition, accuracy is a vital ingredient to doing well.  Thus all the talk about 25 yards, etc.  I hope you don't take it the wrong way but your post is sort of off topic for this thread.  You could always do a postal match using the criteria of how fast can we put 21 rounds into a man sized torso at 7 yards without missing.  That would be fun too, eh?  I'm not being fecetious that would be fun.  Hmmm.. maybe I'll start another thread.

I can hit the broad side of a barn with a 1911.


From the inside.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 10.5 inch group at 25 with WWB and a 1911?  I think your gun is bent. No, more likely the nut behind the grip safety is loose. Well, I am a Gunsite and other school graduate...what do you think is wrong with that? If you don't practice after the school, what do you think will be wrong? Let's qualify the statements a bit more.  I had hunted for years with a rifle and shotgun before the USMC.  I qualified Expert, but that did not make me a pistol shooter.  Heck, I shot my Dad's little Llama .22, even propped myself and held steady on a surface and I couldn't hit a pop can at 7 yards with it.  I thought the gun was defective, much like the original post must think.  After buying a Ruger Mark II and learning to shoot with thousands of rounds down range, I bought my Dad's little Llama.  Guess what, there wasn't a thing wrong with that gun and it is nicely accurate. There is nothing wrong with shooting a rimfire, which is where I recommend learning trigger control, grip, stance, breathing, and sight alignment/sight picture.   This is usually what it takes, thousands of rounds down range before you can get it together.  My first 1911 was not the easiest to shoot.  I was off and on with accuracy, until I built some steel plate targets and started shooting mainly outdoors.  It seemed to all come together.  I then shot a couple IDPA and IPSC matches.  Certainly not "gamer fast", but I kill what I see and would likely do well in a gun battle.   Combine that with the pressure of having 20 SASS shooters behind you on a stage, and knowing that if you screw up, even a little, that you will never hear the end of it.   End result is years of practice, tens of thousands of rounds down range.  A class or two isn't going to get you there.  A few hard lined basics and practice will get you there. I have a private range with paper and steel, and a Dillon 1050.  I shot 700 rounds yesterday, what did you do? Want pics?  I speak the truth. What are you trying to read into this?  Yesterday I barbequed some chicken, built a face framed cabinet, made Cincinnati-style Chili, served 3 way, swam in the pool, cleaned some guns, had some Martinis, shot some pool, went to Home Depot, and then Cold Stone Creamery. (I went to the range the day before)  ....and my pecker is bigger than yours.  Get real.   What I'm reading into this is that you said practice mattered until you ran up on someone who practices more than YOU do.   I will await your 25 yard target.  And just to make things interesting, I'll shoot mine cold, and the first target will be the only one for score.

Ahh..  So a pissing match is all you wanted.   That isn't going to help the original poster practice, now is it.  700 rounds in a day isn't necessarily practice.  700 rounds over 7 days seems much more practical, now doesn't it

Sorry for the delay, work comes first.  Going to the range tomorrow though, will scan and
post targets after that.

Quoted: Sorry for the delay, work comes first.  Going to the range tomorrow though, will scan and post targets after that.

SWEET!!  I know, what you mean, I'm not sure when I'm going there to do this yet.  Maybe Sunday?

Quoted: Quoted: Sorry for the delay, work comes first.  Going to the range tomorrow though, will scan and post targets after that. SWEET!!  I know, what you mean, I'm not sure when I'm going there to do this yet.  Maybe Sunday?

I have to admit I have an idea situation.  I work less than 2 miles from my range.  I have an hour for lunch so by the time I drive there, eat my lunch, and get set up I have 20-30 minutes to shoot.  If it wheren't for the convenience I would not be able to shoot as well as I do.

I have a wife and kids who demand my time (and I'm very happy to give it) outside of work.  Prior to getting this job I was able to get out shooting once or twice a month.  I shot well but certianly not at this level.  

Don't be disheartened...  By practicing with a purpose only a couple times a month (during the summer months) you will shrink your groups.

I'm starting to sound like an infomercial now.

Kent

I made it to the range today befor my class.  I was mostly just plinking but I brought some paper plates also.  This was my best group for the day at 25 yds.  It's nothing phenominal but it's good enough for me.  Not my best but decent.  Anyways the gun is a Browning Buckmark Challenger (not a Browning Challenger).  The ammo was cheap Winchester Dynapoint.  They sell bricks of it for $9 at wallyworld.  I like it bc it's copper plated and cheap.  

I can shoot hand thrown soda cans out of the air with my pellet pistol.  Just 'cause someone shoots small groups doesn't mean they can't shoot fast or instinctively.

 This brings to mind something for JJREA, the original poster. One thing I like about 1911's is the grip angle. There is more than one and this may explain some of your different performance experiances between different pistols. I dont know.

I need a GOOD 1911 to shoot O.K.  For me, I see a difference between 1911's. Some perform better for me than others and I have had many. The three I currently have work for me and only one of them seems to have fewer 'fliers'. I see a diference in them and again, like the grip angle of this model for natural, instinctive advantage. Even still, I shoot barely fair. But better than with a different type. As a side note, the 45acp is not inherrently innaccurate. The one 'keeper' I have is proof and if you have the oppertunity to shoot a S&W 625 [or earlier example], you may be amazed.

Quoted: .... if you have the oppertunity to shoot a S&W 625 [or earlier example], you may be amazed.

BIG +1


Rich

First off, a Big shout out to Hobbs!!  Whats going on dude.

Anyways, I like to go out to the range and blow rounds down range like everyone here and I have fun doing it.  When I qualify at my departments annual qual I'm shooting target style. getting the perfect stance, I prefer the isosceles triangle stance, aiming, trigger squeeze and trigger reset.  

However, with that said what is important is being able to draw your gun quickly and quickly placing rounds on target.  If I aim at a human torso and put metal in meat but my two or three shot group is the size of a paper plate who gives a flip!  Everyone here knows that most gunfights happen 7 yards and in.  Very rarely would you need to shoot at a person from 25 yards, not saying it couldn't happen under the right circumstances.

if you are not training for tactical purposes and you like target shooting disregard the above.

Quoted: First off, a Big shout out to Hobbs!!  Whats going on dude. Anyways, I like to go out to the range and blow rounds down range like everyone here and I have fun doing it.  When I qualify at my departments annual qual I'm shooting target style. getting the perfect stance, I prefer the isosceles triangle stance, aiming, trigger squeeze and trigger reset.   However, with that said what is important is being able to draw your gun quickly and quickly placing rounds on target.  If I aim at a human torso and put metal in meat but my two or three shot group is the size of a paper plate who gives a flip!  Everyone here knows that most gunfights happen 7 yards and in.  Very rarely would you need to shoot at a person from 25 yards, not saying it couldn't happen under the right circumstances. if you are not training for tactical purposes and you like target shooting disregard the above.

Yes, but the whole purpose of the thread titled "OK, how accurate are you guys with a 1911, really" is shooting for accuracy, not tactical / combat / speed shooting.  (This was stated earlier BTW).


ETA:  Opps didn't read your last line.  Strike my comments from the record.

Kent

Quoted: Quoted: .... if you have the oppertunity to shoot a S&W 625 [or earlier example], you may be amazed. BIG +1 Rich

I think that's a revolver, am I correct?

SIG 220.  Good shooting.  It's not quite the target I was talking about but close enough.  That group looks like about 3", eh?  

Thank you for participating!!!

Sorry, I know I didn't follow the rules you set.  I didn't have time to run to Academy for some NRA targets.  I was shooting using a weaver stance.  I had a couple of targets that looked similar but had 1-2 fliers, a few targets with a little larger of a group, and one that was pretty much all over the plate.  Here's a crappy pic with a ruler.  It was right around  2&3/8" from center to center (not sure if that's the correct way to measure).

BTW with 1911's I usually shoot anywhere from 3-4" groups at 25yds depending on how I'm doing.  I probably suck with them right now because i sold mine to pay for the RRA 1911 I ordered in April so I haven't shpt one lately.  I bought a SA Mil-Spec ultra compact (3.5" barrel) that should arrive this weekend.  I'll post some pics afer I get a chance to shoot it but I know I'll need practice with it before I can shoot it decently.

Quoted: Sorry, I know I didn't follow the rules you set.  I didn't have time to run to Academy for some NRA targets.  I was shooting using a weaver stance.  I had a couple of targets that looked similar but had 1-2 fliers, a few targets with a little larger of a group, and one that was pretty much all over the plate.  Here's a crappy pic with a ruler.  It was right around  2&3/8" from center to center (not sure if that's the correct way to measure). i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/pistolfodder/IMG_0089.jpg

As I understand it, that is the correct way to measure!!!  Good shooting.  Thank you for being honest about the other targets.  This is my point, what we can regularily do and what is our best is usually two different things.  I'm not taking away at all from your shooting.  It's a whole lot better than what I can do presently.  But I'm just making my point.

I got the 1911 dirty just so I could fulfill the original intent of the post "OK, how accurate are you guys with a 1911, really."  This actually an ORM 1991 to which I've added a wilson drop-in beavertail grip safety, comander hammer, sear, and trigger.  The trigger pull is still the stock 4 lbs I just didn't like the plastic trigger and I gave a flesh offering to the spur hammer and stock grip safety every time I fired it.  (No accurizing has been performed.)

This was shot using the classic weaver stance, 25 yards, using a handload of 6.0 gr Unique under a Barry's plated 230 gr bullet.  (Roughly a standard hardball load.)



I won't tell any tall tails...  What I shot is want you see.  I pulled one to the upper right for a 4 inch group rather than the 3 incher I said I could make.  The rest are in 3 inches though.

Kent

Hey Kent, what does "ORM" mean.  I can see it's a colt but I've never heard that term.  That is a very nice looking pistol.  As the ar15 guys say, "mmmmm kool aid".   I still haven't figured why they call colt products kool aid but whatever.  

Nice group.  4" is still dang good, especially for 10 shots.  At least you were man enough to post the pic.  I appreciate it.  Way to go!  I should rib you a little but you already did yourself.  Plus you're the first one to post a 1911 under our postal criteria!!  Thanks!!!

I hope we get some more participants.

edited to add: you cheated and used handloads though you dog.  Put some WWB and see how it does.

ORM = Old Roll Mark

When they initially offered the Colt 1991 (the "cost reduced" Colt 1911) they put a very plain roll mark on the reverse side of the pistol.  More recently they started putting a better looking roll mark on the pistol (I think it may even include the Colt pony).  Some people say quality improved about the time they placed the New Roll Mark (NRM) the gun.  The quality of my gun was outstanding so I have nothing to complain about except for the aethetics of the ORM.

I think when they refer to the Kool Aid they mean following the crowd blindly (ala Jim Jones followers).  In my case Colt offered special deep dicounts to NRA instructors for up to 5 pistols.  An NRA instuctor friend of mine let me and a few other mutual friends in on the deal.  The deal was so good, that the deal was completed 4 weeks after my first child was born.  Money was tight but my wife (God bless her) realised how good the deal was and said, "Get it.  You want one and it will never be this cheap again."  One of the best values I've ever gotten.

The handloads are nothing special.  I just throw them together so it will go bang cheaply.  There was no special load development.  It might even do better with WWB.

Kent

For any of you that don't have time to go to a store and pick up the target do a google search for NRA #B16 or just click here and download a printable version. It is set up to meet NRA rules, it just fits on a 8.5" X 11" paper.

FREEBIES!!

Quoted: Hey Kent, what does "ORM" mean.  I can see it's a colt but I've never heard that term.  That is a very nice looking pistol.  As the ar15 guys say, "mmmmm kool aid".   I still haven't figured why they call colt products kool aid but whatever.   Nice group.  4" is still dang good, especially for 10 shots.  At least you were man enough to post the pic.  I appreciate it.  Way to go!  I should rib you a little but you already did yourself.  Plus you're the first one to post a 1911 under our postal criteria!!  Thanks!!! I hope we get some more participants. edited to add: you cheated and used handloads though you dog.  Put some WWB and see how it does.

Is this not a test of the shooter?  If it's our abilities we are wanting to test, then handloads should be appropriate.  

Quoted: Quoted: Hey Kent, what does "ORM" mean.  I can see it's a colt but I've never heard that term.  That is a very nice looking pistol.  As the ar15 guys say, "mmmmm kool aid".   I still haven't figured why they call colt products kool aid but whatever.   Nice group.  4" is still dang good, especially for 10 shots.  At least you were man enough to post the pic.  I appreciate it.  Way to go!  I should rib you a little but you already did yourself.  Plus you're the first one to post a 1911 under our postal criteria!!  Thanks!!! I hope we get some more participants. edited to add: you cheated and used handloads though you dog.  Put some WWB and see how it does. Is this not a test of the shooter?  If it's our abilities we are wanting to test, then handloads should be appropriate.

Look, you can use handloads if you want.  I was just trying to keep a standard that everyone could follow.  We all don't reload.   Any of us can get WWB though.  You see?  I realize that not everyone's pistol will like it though.

Quoted: For any of you that don't have time to go to a store and pick up the target do a google search for NRA #B16 or just click here and download a printable version. It is set up to meet NRA rules, it just fits on a 8.5" X 11" paper. FREEBIES!!

SAWEEEET!  THANK YOU!!

Quoted: Quoted: For any of you that don't have time to go to a store and pick up the target do a google search for NRA #B16 or just click here and download a printable version. It is set up to meet NRA rules, it just fits on a 8.5" X 11" paper. FREEBIES!! SAWEEEET!  THANK YOU!!

Yeah, that's cool. I will use that one.  Promise I'm trying to get to the range.
Oh, and I'll use 10mm Blazer, is that crappy enough ammo?

Quoted: For any of you that don't have time to go to a store and pick up the target do a google search for NRA #B16 or just click here and download a printable version. It is set up to meet NRA rules, it just fits on a 8.5" X 11" paper. FREEBIES!!

Cool!!!  All I had was the B8 rapid fire 25 yard target.

Kent

I could hit you in the eye from here.

Probably about average. I'm pretty lousy with a pistol overall, but it's probably because I always put the targets too far out.

I did this with my new Springfield TRP Operator at 10 yards. Aimed rapid fire. All I can say is that I have no regrets selling my USP Tactical for it.

Quoted: Accurate enough to have the confidence I'm going to hit my intended target.

I thought you were sticking with 9mm Glocks???



O.K. since I'm the original poster and I said I would take part, here goes.  Now I'm going to give you all my excuses.  First off, this was the only group I shot.  It was not my best of three.  My POI is off and I would've adjusted the sights had it been a successor.  So I only did it once and that's that.  I was too busy shooting my M1 carbine and watching my Dad shoot his.  And on top of that, I'm obviously not very good.  One day I want to take more time and give it a whirl with a .22, a .38 and my 1911.  But here's my entry.

I did shoot at this target turned because it had to fit on a stand with another target underneath it.
8-5/16"

OK, scenario.  "honey, let's go shopping".  We pile in the car, gun bag is in the trunk, clandestinely.  We happen to drive by the range.  ......and I quote "dammit!  you went to the range yesterday!".  I open the door, slap up a target, fire six rounds, peel off the target, get in the car, and bail.  I thought I fired five, but math was never my strong subject (math teacher had big titties).  

So, here is a cold fired Kimber 1911, 230 grain FMJ winchester white box from wally world:

Edited for the important detail, this is at 25 YARDS!






3 1/4", certainly not my best, but the least of what you should practice for.  

Not your best group of the day, but the first two double taps down the pipe that you will NEED to save your own live, and the lives of your loved ones.  Time is now bourbon:30PM.

Had to edit one more time.  Now, we all hear about how these MIM (metal injection molded) Kimbers fall into dust in your hands.  This Kimber is the very first lot of stainless guns off the production line.  It shot an IPSC match, dry, straight out of the box.  Walked from the gun store counter to the fireing line. A few years later, a couple thousand rounds down the tube....  What I am getting to is that this gun has no mods.  Sand paper on the front strap, but not one other thing done.  It is a keeper.

Last edit.  Two hand, modified weaver, shorts, flip flops, boxer shorts, sunglasses, and no frickin' bench rest.....the only bench rest is for the blender and the Margarita mix, but that is scheduled for September....

In IDPA this year I:
classified Sharpshooter in CDP (shooting a 132.71) with my SA 1911 Loaded(45ACP)
classified Expert in SSP (shooting a 119.42) with my Glock 17(9mm)
classified Sharpshooter in ESP (shooting a 111.34) with my Glock 31 (357SIG).  

So I'd say I shoot the Glocks more accurately.