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Posted: 2/25/2010 5:55:48 AM EDT
[#1]
53Vortec, Did you ever get your issue resolved with Wilson ? I know both You and 12Gauge had Wilson issues and yours, if memory serves me correctly was bullshit coming from Wilson.
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Posted: 2/25/2010 6:15:00 AM EDT
[#2]
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53Vortec, Did you ever get your issue resolved with Wilson ? I know both You and 12Gauge had Wilson issues and yours, if memory serves me correctly was bullshit coming from Wilson. I contacted Wilson and their customer service department took a rapid interest in what had happened with my pistol. They ended up providing me a play-by-play explanation of what had happened with my pistol during the initial build and refinishing of my pistol. They made no excuses and provided an honest apology, which is good enough for me. I was impressed with how rapidly and thoroughly they followed up with me, and would be happy to do business with them again. I should be home on leave in August and actually be able to put my hands on it. 
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Posted: 2/25/2010 6:31:24 AM EDT
[#3]
This is how I see it.
The 1911 is like a 2 stroke race bike. It's tuned to provide the absolute in performance that the user needs and is a great weapon in the hands of the person that knows how to run it. You give that same race bike to an amateur that barely knows how to ride, and they'll screw it up and not ride it to their own abilities, and not maintain it enough to allow the bike to work to it's abilities. The race bike requires more maintenance, more attention to detail, and an operator that can use it to it's abilities. When those three things come together, it's magic. Nowadays, Glocks and HKs and etc. are like old 4 strokes. They get the job done, but they might not be as fast. They might be easier to ride, but don't handle as well. They require less maintenance, but don't give the same performance. Lots of people just want a bike they can put gas in, kick it, and take off riding. They don't want to mess with an air-mixture screw. They don't want to pre-mix fuel. They don't want to replace a piston and rings once a year. They don't want to mess with the shock clickers to fine tune suspension action. They want to put gas in, ride, wash, and put in the garage for next time. Now this is probably lost on those that don't ride, but there's a lot of similarities in there. A highly tuned race bike will not be a good all-around bike. It's purpose built to do one thing: go fast on the track. The 1911 is much the same way. It has to be tuned so it runs perfectly, but when it does, it rewards the time spent tuning with the exact results you were trying to accomplish: putting rounds on target as fast and as accurately as possible. I'll be quiet with the dirtbike talk now...... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 6:53:50 AM EDT
[#4]
It really depends on what type of course you show up to, and who the users are shooting 1911's. In the recent Vickers/Hackathorn Invite class, we had two 1911's. I know mine never stopped running, and I don't believe the other one had any stoppages either. I was using WWB 230gr ball, and the other shooter was using Wolf 230gr ball.
In the other string of shooters, apparently some Glocks and M&P's didn't like the weather, and had some odd malfunctions. I wasn't in that string and only heard secondhand info about them. When using a 1911 as a primary weapon, I find the capacity somewhat troublesome. That is more a function of me fumble fucking with reloads under simulated stress. As a secondary weapon to an AR15, no weapon is better in my personal opinion. I am going to continue to use a 1911, but I am also outfitting myself to use a G17 and HK45 in a three way rotation of sidearms. Why? Capacity and continued familiarity with all my primary sidearms. I honestly don't give much of a shit what anyone else carries, uses or shoots. I'm a grown man capable of making my own decisions on which gun suits me best. If you like a Glock 17, learn it and use it. If you like a 1911, learn it and use it. If either pistol has an issue, try to fix it - or have it fixed. If you can't get it fixed, find a gun show in town.  |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 6:56:01 AM EDT
[#5]
I've never had any problems with 1911s except one that was made by Smith & Wesson.
But, then again, it was a 1911. Made by Smith & Wesson. So I guess you can see the problem
Anyway I like 1911s, the shoot ability and point ability can't be matched by any other pistol design. That said, my go-to pistol is a USP9 
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:38:09 AM EDT
[#6]
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Too much stuff on a 1911 must be "balanced", extractor tension, ejector profiling, slide-speed, etc. etc. With a Glock, SIG, HK, you just install the parts, and the spring takes care of extractor tension, and for *SOME* reason, they tend to have a great ejection pattern without having to dick with the ejector, etc. Sure, a mid 80's Porsche can be made to run like a swiss watch, but a modern corvette is plug and play, and will wipe the floor with that porsche any day when it comes to the Nurburg or the 'strip. The only thing the Porsche has is sentimentality. Similar to the 1911, although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity. "Balanced" yeah right. nobody had to invent the term "limp wristing" until your little plastic Glock came around. It takes about 5mins. to tune an extractor. Pretty much every semi auto on the market has copied John Brownings locked breech tilting barrel design Jeff Cooper, Rob Leatham, God, and Santa can't all be wrong. 1911 for the WIN ! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/motivator7032164.jpg You obviously missed the internet memo - beginning last year, "limp wristing" is no longer attributed to inducing Glock failures, and is now blamed for inducing 1911 failures. (I say this in jest but seriously, there were a LOT of posts last year suddenly blaming 1911 failures to limp wristing. It was weird.) As for Browning's tilt-barrel design, yes, it's used almoste exclusively in modern automatic pistols - but the swinging seems to be missing. Yep, when my Supergrade jammed that's what people claimed I was doing wrong. Nevermind that I can shoot my little plastic 9mm Glock with 115gr Blazer all day and not induce a limp-wrist malfunction. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:39:25 AM EDT
[#7]
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Well, people who know darn well what makes a 1911 tick couldn't seem to get mine to tick, so that theory is out, in my book. There are some that will never run because they were never built properly. Tolerance stack is real, and if you get a 1911 that is ate up with tolerance stack the only thing you can do is sell it and buy another gun. Something as simple as having the extractor channel just a hair off will produce a weapon that doesn't work...ever. Could be, but its second warrenty return trip back to Wilson, they went over it VERY thoroughly I was assured. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:40:43 AM EDT
[#8]
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53Vortec, Did you ever get your issue resolved with Wilson ? I know both You and 12Gauge had Wilson issues and yours, if memory serves me correctly was bullshit coming from Wilson. I contacted Wilson and their customer service department took a rapid interest in what had happened with my pistol. They ended up providing me a play-by-play explanation of what had happened with my pistol during the initial build and refinishing of my pistol. They made no excuses and provided an honest apology, which is good enough for me. I was impressed with how rapidly and thoroughly they followed up with me, and would be happy to do business with them again. I should be home on leave in August and actually be able to put my hands on it. This mirrors my experience, Wilson took VERY good care of me. After the pistol still failed to meet expectations after the 2nd warrenty return trip, my money was given back. No complaints at all with Wilson. Just the 1911 design. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:40:51 AM EDT
[#9]
As stated, if you are going to run a 1911 you need to do your research and stay on top of that mutha. Buying a semi-custom, decent mags, and good ammo will alleviate most problems up front. Read Hilton Yam's and LAV's musings on the 1911 to learn how to stay in touch with preventative maintenance.
My 1911s now consist of a Baer, Colt 38 super, Springfield Custom 10-8 Operator, DW CBOB, Kimber Gold Match, and a LTW raffle gun. The Baer had to go back to the factory once for an issue (seized slide during break-in, probably not lubed well enough). The Kimber I bought used and had a light reliability package done. Other than that, I believe I probably have about 10K rounds thru these over the last several years (including classes) and can only recall one fail to feed in the Kimber. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:53:33 AM EDT
[#10]
The courses and matches I've been too with mostly stock pistols. The 1911s seem to have a lot more issues than glocks and HKs. My belief is that 1911s are just more sensitive. I have ran my glocks with 6-700 rounds in a day with no problems. Most folks in my experiene get about 3-400 rounds through 1911 before problems arise. Now if every 200rds you bore snake and lube I think youd be fine with 1911.
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Posted: 2/25/2010 4:30:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Yes, I know there are a million variations of 1911s, some of them are completely worn out, some are poorly built, and some are the Mercedes of pistols. However, GENERALLY SPEAKING, have you personally noticed that 1911s as a whole tend to be more or less reliable in a combat course than: (a) Sigs (b) HKs (c) Glocks (d) Springfield XD  I took a 2 day handgun course a few weeks ago. In my immediate area, there were a few problems with Glocks, all from not seating the mag all the way, one problem with fail to eject from an M&P because the user was wearing gloves for the first time and they were dragging on the slide, and the worst was from a 1911. There was a failure to feed, and he tapped the mag then hit his palm into the back of the slide. This only jammed the bullet harder against the feed ramp. It stopped the line and took 2 instructors to clear. The other 1911s, Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs, and HK that didn't have stupid users ran just fine.  |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 4:59:42 PM EDT
[#12]
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when I see 1911's choke, it's almost always, crap mags, crap handloads, or a crappy 1911 This cracks me up. If it works, it is a good 1911, if it chokes, it is a crappy 1911. Get rid of all the crappy 1911s and the 1911 platform as a whole is very reliable, LOL!!! Anyway, there are lots of really good posts with very realistic information about what a 1911 is and what it isn't. I think 1911s are fun pistols to shoot but not the platform I want to depend on to save my life. I prefer firearms that just plain fire over and over and over even without perfect tuning/maintenance/lubrication/magazines/ammo etc.... Shit happens no matter how careful you are. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 5:14:30 PM EDT
[#13]
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Too many variables. I've taken my personal 1911 through multiple 5 day courses with 3,000 rounds in that time (including half a day on Blackwater's Reactive Steel Rogers range...extremely high round count) without experiencing any issues...but I also showed up with brand new mag springs, changed my recoil spring 3 times during the course, I lubed my gun multiple times per day, and I detail stripped, cleaned, and lubed the gun at night. If this is what it takes to get a 1911 to run for those 5 days/ 3,000 rounds vs another design that can do it with its old stock mag springs and no cleaning at all, no recoil spring changes and no relubing (all from round 1), does this mean that the 1911 is an inheriently unreliable design taking in all variables compared to said pistol??????? Personally, I would say the pistol that can get through the 3,000 rounds with nothing done to it etc... is, in comparison, an overall more reliable pistol. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 5:37:31 PM EDT
[#14]
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Too many variables. I've taken my personal 1911 through multiple 5 day courses with 3,000 rounds in that time (including half a day on Blackwater's Reactive Steel Rogers range...extremely high round count) without experiencing any issues...but I also showed up with brand new mag springs, changed my recoil spring 3 times during the course, I lubed my gun multiple times per day, and I detail stripped, cleaned, and lubed the gun at night. If this is what it takes to get a 1911 to run for those 5 days/ 3,000 rounds vs another design that can do it with its old stock mag springs and no cleaning at all, no recoil spring changes and no relubing (all from round 1), does this mean that the 1911 is an inheriently unreliable design taking in all variables compared to said pistol??????? Personally, I would say the pistol that can get through the 3,000 rounds with nothing done to it etc... is, in comparison, an overall more reliable pistol. Sir, I would like to introduce you the the Church of Gaston, they will teach you the ways of Glock. now excuse me while I go apologize to my 1911's for that dig |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 5:50:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Quoted: Too many variables. I've taken my personal 1911 through multiple 5 day courses with 3,000 rounds in that time (including half a day on Blackwater's Reactive Steel Rogers range...extremely high round count) without experiencing any issues...but I also showed up with brand new mag springs, changed my recoil spring 3 times during the course, I lubed my gun multiple times per day, and I detail stripped, cleaned, and lubed the gun at night. If this is what it takes to get a 1911 to run for those 5 days/ 3,000 rounds vs another design that can do it with its old stock mag springs and no cleaning at all, no recoil spring changes and no relubing (all from round 1), does this mean that the 1911 is an inheriently unreliable design taking in all variables compared to said pistol??????? Personally, I would say the pistol that can get through the 3,000 rounds with nothing done to it etc... is, in comparison, an overall more reliable pistol. Taking a personal maintenance schedule and trying to attribute that to all 1911's is unfair. During the recent class with Vickers and Hackathorn, I lubed the gun after TD1 because it was raining hard as hell for four hours. I didn't lube it again until I got home. I did nothing special with the mags. This has been my standard MO since day one with this basically stock Kimber Warrior. I'm edging over 4,500rds, as a guessimate. Almost all of it done under a more stressful than average firing schedule. Problems: One failure to feed with a very old 10rd McCormick Shooting Star mag. Two premature slide locks before mag empty with a Wilson 47D. Back to back. Mag was rebuilt and never happened again. 3 malfs in 4500 rounds makes me happy. Also, to firmly believe that any other pistol will never have a malfunction is fooling yourself. It will happen, even with your pet Glock or M&P or Sig or H&K. It's not really a big deal if you program "tap; rack; bang" into your head and practice over and over and over. I'm a gun guy, and like maintaining firearms. I also like the 1911. As Vickers says, "You had better be a 1911 enthusiast if you are going to use a 1911." If you're not, then move on and quit attempting to disparage the "Finest CQB sidearm in the world...".  |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:29:51 PM EDT
[#16]
You make a good point, maybe the 1911 is one of the most individual sidearms out there still being used by the masses. No two are really alike compared to more production type pistols like glocks etc.. that can easily be mass produced with easy part swapping.
The 1911 really is an amazing pistol. Too bad it can't be produced with the ease and consistancy of modern day plastic fantastics. Quoted:
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Too many variables. I've taken my personal 1911 through multiple 5 day courses with 3,000 rounds in that time (including half a day on Blackwater's Reactive Steel Rogers range...extremely high round count) without experiencing any issues...but I also showed up with brand new mag springs, changed my recoil spring 3 times during the course, I lubed my gun multiple times per day, and I detail stripped, cleaned, and lubed the gun at night. If this is what it takes to get a 1911 to run for those 5 days/ 3,000 rounds vs another design that can do it with its old stock mag springs and no cleaning at all, no recoil spring changes and no relubing (all from round 1), does this mean that the 1911 is an inheriently unreliable design taking in all variables compared to said pistol??????? Personally, I would say the pistol that can get through the 3,000 rounds with nothing done to it etc... is, in comparison, an overall more reliable pistol. Taking a personal maintenance schedule and trying to attribute that to all 1911's is unfair. During the recent class with Vickers and Hackathorn, I lubed the gun after TD1 because it was raining hard as hell for four hours. I didn't lube it again until I got home. I did nothing special with the mags. This has been my standard MO since day one with this basically stock Kimber Warrior. I'm edging over 4,500rds, as a guessimate. Almost all of it done under a more stressful than average firing schedule. Problems: One failure to feed with a very old 10rd McCormick Shooting Star mag. Two premature slide locks before mag empty with a Wilson 47D. Back to back. Mag was rebuilt and never happened again. 3 malfs in 4500 rounds makes me happy. Also, to firmly believe that any other pistol will never have a malfunction is fooling yourself. It will happen, even with your pet Glock or M&P or Sig or H&K. It's not really a big deal if you program "tap; rack; bang" into your head and practice over and over and over. I'm a gun guy, and like maintaining firearms. I also like the 1911. As Vickers says, "You had better be a 1911 enthusiast if you are going to use a 1911." If you're not, then move on and quit attempting to disparage the "Finest CQB sidearm in the world...".
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:40:03 PM EDT
[#17]
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when I see 1911's choke, it's almost always, crap mags, crap handloads, or a crappy 1911 This cracks me up. If it works, it is a good 1911, if it chokes, it is a crappy 1911. Get rid of all the crappy 1911s and the 1911 platform as a whole is very reliable, LOL!!! Anyway, there are lots of really good posts with very realistic information about what a 1911 is and what it isn't. I think 1911s are fun pistols to shoot but not the platform I want to depend on to save my life. I prefer firearms that just plain fire over and over and over even without perfect tuning/maintenance/lubrication/magazines/ammo etc.... Shit happens no matter how careful you are. Laugh all you want. Not all 1911's are made to the same quality level. Mine are. and continue to run completely reliable I shoot USPSA / IPSC. It's not uncommon to shoot 10,000 rounds a year, between practice and matches. I've been doing this for over 15 years. I know what works and what doesn't. A quality 1911 is a very reliable weapon. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 7:56:45 PM EDT
[#18]
This has been a good read. Still don't think it belonged in the 1911 forum. It's a handgun discusson. That said, writer of this Op has a good point. Nothing slows down a tactical class more than malfunctions. What shines in the responses are guys that know they don't have any business with a 1911 and those who have no problem trusting them in any enviroment.
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Posted: 2/25/2010 8:08:05 PM EDT
[#19]
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This has been a good read. Still don't think it belonged in the 1911 forum. It's a handgun discusson. That said, writer of this Op has a good point. Nothing slows down a tactical class more than malfunctions. What shines in the responses are guys that know they don't have any business with a 1911 and those who have no problem trusting them in any enviroment. It's in the handgun forum, not the 1911 section. That said, if you have good luck with a 1911, use it. If you're like me and never had one that ran, I wouldn't, if I were you. |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 8:14:33 PM EDT
[#20]
This started in the 1911 forum and SGB moved it 12gauge and I'm truly sorry your 1911 experience wasn't a hundred percent. I know you put some money into making it work.
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Posted: 2/25/2010 8:21:08 PM EDT
[#21]
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Guess that is why you never see 1911s in USPSA, IPSC, IDPA and steel challenge.
Those have been the real proving grounds for all things handgun related in the last 25 years or so. Every single development of note started out in those "combat" competitions. Overall....the 1911 platform still rules. I shot IPSC for years, Now I shoot IDPA because well, I Don't Practice Anymore you're right, LOTS of 1911s there. They routinely choke like hell too.Not all of em, but many. I'm still waiting to see that with Glocks and M&Ps.
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Posted: 2/25/2010 8:42:42 PM EDT
[#22]
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...........although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity. for everyone. Some of us don't mind the extra effort to maintain a pistol that give an edge (however slight) in a gunfight.
7 rounds vs. 12 rounds is quite an "edge" to give up for a trigger with a bit less travel. Bruce Gray can do some nice things with an HK trigger (stock production 1911 triggers suck anyways, imho, so it's apples to apples in my mind.). You also give up second-strike (may or may not matter to you). So I don't think you can say a trigger gives you an edge in a gunfight that is worth more than another 6 rounds of ammo. I highly doubt you will notice the difference in a slicked up (or even stock) HK trigger when TSHTF. 6 rounds? Yeah, you might notice that, or maybe not, many OIS after-action reports mention that the officer didn't. If you can't even count your rounds, how the hell is a 2# lighter and bit crisper trigger going to register? Only on the square-range. I've been shooting an M&P 9L that has a trigger job in it that easily out does the two kimbers I've owned. Yep, the shitty stock triggers on them and Glock suck and suck hard, but hell, if the 1911 guys can go custom, so can we 
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Posted: 2/25/2010 9:24:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: I've been shooting an M&P 9L that has a trigger job in it that easily out does the two kimbers I've owned. Yep, the shitty stock triggers on them and Glock suck and suck hard, but hell, if the 1911 guys can go custom, so can we  ................. keep up son .......... and I still don't want another Glock   |
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Posted: 2/25/2010 9:29:04 PM EDT
[#24]
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I've been shooting an M&P 9L that has a trigger job in it that easily out does the two kimbers I've owned. Yep, the shitty stock triggers on them and Glock suck and suck hard, but hell, if the 1911 guys can go custom, so can we ................. keep up son .......... and I still don't want another Glock
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u11/sgb_album/mp9c003.jpg What, shocked I'm talking good about something other than a Glock?
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Posted: 2/26/2010 4:17:20 AM EDT
[#25]
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If this is what it takes to get a 1911 to run for those 5 days/ 3,000 rounds vs another design that can do it with its old stock mag springs and no cleaning at all, no recoil spring changes and no relubing (all from round 1), does this mean that the 1911 is an inheriently unreliable design taking in all variables compared to said pistol??????? Understand that I didn't HAVE to do all that stuff to keep my gun running for 3,000 rounds. I didn't HAVE to detail strip and clean the gun, didn't HAVE to replace the recoil spring...I did those things because I wanted to ensure the best case scenario for my gun and minimize the after the course cleaning chore. A 1911 can still run if it's pretty dirty providing it is generously lubed. The 1911 at it's best is reliable enough. The problem is that getting it there and keeping it there are not inexpensive or easy propositions. This is why experts refer to the 1911 as an enthusiast's platform. I love 1911's and I drool over a nice one like every patriotic American should, but I've basically moved on to plastic guns. From a mechanical and design standpoint, plastic guns like the 9mm Glock are more reliable on the whole than 1911's on the whole. I can find specific examples of each type of weapon that defy the rule, but there's enough validity in the general rule to stand. The evidence is this: If I were to take a knowledgeable professional and hand him a gun off the shelf that he was going to have to use to save his bacon, 9 out of 10 (or more) would pick the 9mm Glock. Shivan and I were both in the room with a lot of very knowledgable people...including Vickers and Hackathorn...and they posed a very similar question to the room. Nobody picked the 1911...nobody. The 1911 is what it is. It's an old design with a complicated feed path designed in an era when the concept of "reliability" was entirely different than it is today. It's still around primarily because of how easy it is to shoot under stress. That's why some elite units stuck to the 1911 for so long...because when the time came to put a bullet in a precise location under the most extreme circumstances, the leeway you get from that crisp 4 pound trigger that moves straight to the rear with a clean break was hard to beat. Ultimately even some of those elite units have moved on to other weapons because of the maintenance nightmare of trying to keep 1911's functioning with their op and training tempo. At least one of those units went to Glock to have them make an honest-to-god 3# connector for their .40 caliber Glocks that results in a 3# trigger...trying to chase the ease of use under stress that the 1911's gave them. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 4:34:01 AM EDT
[#26]
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This started in the 1911 forum and SGB moved it 12gauge and I'm truly sorry your 1911 experience wasn't a hundred percent. I know you put some money into making it work. Ah, I was unaware. I did, indeed. Also, I take offense to the ignorant people who "blame the user" and not the gun. All of my 1911's were lubricated per manufacturer recommendations with high quality lubricants (in the case of my Supergrade, the own company's proprietary lubricant). They were cleaned thoroughly, and they were not "limp wristed" one bit. I even video-taped the failures in one case so I/the company could see myself shooting and see that. I have never unintentionally limp-wristed a weapon in my life (except when firing a G17 with my wrist at a 90* angle into a 55gallon drum of water to avoid being splashed. Yep, it stove-piped once doing that). When I was 7-years-old I could and did shoot 1911's without limp-wristing them. I highly doubt I began this practice suddenly at age 23/24. Blaming the user and not the platform in all cases is simply a way to protect their emotional investment. I agree that sometimes it IS the user, no doubt. But then, I could turn it around and say that the only 1911's that work are those who have finicky users who spend too much time on them. That's just as blind a statement and holds just as much water. True in some cases, not all. Now if one wishes to say that I did not take on the role of manufacturer and file and bend on my 1911 and change dimensions of parts, and that is why it did not run, I cannot argue against that, because I did not take needle-file and sand-paper to my pistol. For more than my first car cost (and almost as much as my second car), I did not feel it was my place to do it, nor did I feel comfortable doing so, having never done this. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 5:44:55 AM EDT
[#27]
Ya Listen up
if a 1911 is good enough for Steven seagal why not for me and you!!
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Posted: 2/26/2010 5:57:44 AM EDT
[#28]
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Now if one wishes to say that I did not take on the role of manufacturer and file and bend on my 1911 and change dimensions of parts, and that is why it did not run, I cannot argue against that, because I did not take needle-file and sand-paper to my pistol. For more than my first car cost (and almost as much as my second car), I did not feel it was my place to do it, nor did I feel comfortable doing so, having never done this. It wasn't up to you to take "needle, file and sandpaper" to your Wilson. That was Wilson's responsibility. I don't blame you one bit for not attempting to tinker with your Wilson 1911. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 8:36:44 AM EDT
[#29]
Nope, thats not where I was going either 12Gauge. I posted a link to give direction where I was headed. It had a ton of information to it. There were links inside of links and there was no way to absorb it all by a quick gloss over.
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Posted: 2/26/2010 9:14:49 AM EDT
[#30]
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A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list. The 1911 is definitely not a platform that takes well to economizing. I've seen some RIA's that would argue with you. My buddy has 22,000 rounds out of his RIA, paid 470 bucks for it. No problems, just changes the springs occasionally. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 9:42:30 AM EDT
[#31]
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A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list. The 1911 is definitely not a platform that takes well to economizing. I've seen some RIA's that would argue with you. My buddy has 22,000 rounds out of his RIA, paid 470 bucks for it. No problems, just changes the springs occasionally. Production 1911s are a crapshoot. Either it works pretty well or it doesn't. And if it has substandard parts, it'll maybe work... but for how long? |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 9:49:02 AM EDT
[#32]
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Nope, thats not where I was going either 12Gauge. I posted a link to give direction where I was headed. It had a ton of information to it. There were links inside of links and there was no way to absorb it all by a quick gloss over. I wasn't referring to your link, but rather the people who whined about me not 'smithing on my own pistol or becoming "knowledgeable" enough to make it run. Brute-force tactics are great sometimes, but I would rather have a platform that doesn't require them to get it running. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 9:58:32 AM EDT
[#33]
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A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list. The 1911 is definitely not a platform that takes well to economizing. I've seen some RIA's that would argue with you. My buddy has 22,000 rounds out of his RIA, paid 470 bucks for it. No problems, just changes the springs occasionally. Production 1911s are a crapshoot. Either it works pretty well or it doesn't. And if it has substandard parts, it'll maybe work... but for how long? 
RIA has earned respect from the 1911 community because they run out of the box. Their dirty little secret is they get the geometry for controlled feed right from the factory. Nothing substandard about RIA except the price. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 10:32:57 AM EDT
[#34]
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A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list. The 1911 is definitely not a platform that takes well to economizing. I've seen some RIA's that would argue with you. My buddy has 22,000 rounds out of his RIA, paid 470 bucks for it. No problems, just changes the springs occasionally. Labor is cheaper in the Phillipines, so it's economical to give their 1911s the handwork and attention they need to be reliable. American-made guns have to cut corners in order to be that competitive. It also helps that the PI has a very robust shooting sports community, so they have more than their fair share of 1911 expertise there. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 12:49:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Excellent post. Sums up the issue nicely.
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If this is what it takes to get a 1911 to run for those 5 days/ 3,000 rounds vs another design that can do it with its old stock mag springs and no cleaning at all, no recoil spring changes and no relubing (all from round 1), does this mean that the 1911 is an inheriently unreliable design taking in all variables compared to said pistol??????? Understand that I didn't HAVE to do all that stuff to keep my gun running for 3,000 rounds. I didn't HAVE to detail strip and clean the gun, didn't HAVE to replace the recoil spring...I did those things because I wanted to ensure the best case scenario for my gun and minimize the after the course cleaning chore. A 1911 can still run if it's pretty dirty providing it is generously lubed. The 1911 at it's best is reliable enough. The problem is that getting it there and keeping it there are not inexpensive or easy propositions. This is why experts refer to the 1911 as an enthusiast's platform. I love 1911's and I drool over a nice one like every patriotic American should, but I've basically moved on to plastic guns. From a mechanical and design standpoint, plastic guns like the 9mm Glock are more reliable on the whole than 1911's on the whole. I can find specific examples of each type of weapon that defy the rule, but there's enough validity in the general rule to stand. The evidence is this: If I were to take a knowledgeable professional and hand him a gun off the shelf that he was going to have to use to save his bacon, 9 out of 10 (or more) would pick the 9mm Glock. Shivan and I were both in the room with a lot of very knowledgable people...including Vickers and Hackathorn...and they posed a very similar question to the room. Nobody picked the 1911...nobody. The 1911 is what it is. It's an old design with a complicated feed path designed in an era when the concept of "reliability" was entirely different than it is today. It's still around primarily because of how easy it is to shoot under stress. That's why some elite units stuck to the 1911 for so long...because when the time came to put a bullet in a precise location under the most extreme circumstances, the leeway you get from that crisp 4 pound trigger that moves straight to the rear with a clean break was hard to beat. Ultimately even some of those elite units have moved on to other weapons because of the maintenance nightmare of trying to keep 1911's functioning with their op and training tempo. At least one of those units went to Glock to have them make an honest-to-god 3# connector for their .40 caliber Glocks that results in a 3# trigger...trying to chase the ease of use under stress that the 1911's gave them. |
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Posted: 2/26/2010 4:25:30 PM EDT
[#36]
I do not understand these questions. I've never had a 1911 Colt or knock off, that was anything less than 100 percent reliable. Those eurocrap pistols you mention may or may not be accurate too, but not at any greater or lesser rate than a modern factory 1911. This idea that 1911s may have reliability issues is a myth perpetuated by marketing departments in Europe or other parts of France who have forgotten that the 1911 either saved or kicked their ass.
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Posted: 2/26/2010 6:02:55 PM EDT
[#37]
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Too much stuff on a 1911 must be "balanced", extractor tension, ejector profiling, slide-speed, etc. etc. With a Glock, SIG, HK, you just install the parts, and the spring takes care of extractor tension, and for *SOME* reason, they tend to have a great ejection pattern without having to dick with the ejector, etc. Sure, a mid 80's Porsche can be made to run like a swiss watch, but a modern corvette is plug and play, and will wipe the floor with that porsche any day when it comes to the Nurburg or the 'strip. The only thing the Porsche has is sentimentality. Similar to the 1911, although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity. "Balanced" yeah right. nobody had to invent the term "limp wristing" until your little plastic Glock came around. It takes about 5mins. to tune an extractor. Pretty much every semi auto on the market has copied John Brownings locked breech tilting barrel design. Jeff Cooper, Rob Leatham, God, and Santa can't all be wrong. 1911 for the WIN ! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/motivator7032164.jpg |
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