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Posted: 11/26/2003 8:09:04 PM EDT
How does the US made version by S&W stack up against the German made gun?

Thanks
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 3:07:15 PM EDT
I just talked to Yeager from www.warriormindset.com.today about this. He strongly advised against the S&W version. Extractors breaking, sights falling off, jamming, etc. He stated that no S&W99 has made it through the course without problems.
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 5:14:24 PM EDT
Most everyone with experience with both pistols claim the S&W is junk compared to the Walther.

I have no experience with the S&W but I know the Walther is a fine pistol.
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 8:11:33 PM EDT
What does the P-22 have to do with this?
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:13:01 AM EDT
I just bought a S&W SW99 in .45acp as Walther doesn't make a .45acp.

I've run about 150rds thru it, had a few FTF on the first box of ammo, after that it ran like a champ.

Sights are adjustable & thus will not hold up to abuse like perhaps a Novak sight. I haven't had any sort of problem with not holding a zero.

S&W models use a frame made by Walther, only the upper is made by S&W.

Accuracy is pleasant, about 2-3" @ 15 yards with cheap assed ammo. Barrel is only 4.25" so you have a Commander-sized carry gun.

The SW99 is NOT their Sigma, gentlemen. I'd give it two snaps up.

My .o2
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:00:53 PM EDT
Thanks for all the input.

Curious, is there a way to get a German Walther P99?
My FFL told me he could only get the S&W version now.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:31:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Thanks for all the input.

Curious, is there a way to get a German Walther P99?
My FFL told me he could only get the S&W version now.



I think all P99s are german made now. A true german one will have the proof marks all over it, a little dragon looking think, tiny as hell.

Mine is all german and NEVER a problem.

SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:39:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 3:43:25 PM EDT by Jeep29]
My favorite dealer had 5 Walthers in stock last weekend. Three 99's, one 99QA, and one 990. All of them were priced at $536. He had both black and green but I don't remember which models were what color. There are plenty of Walthers out there so I believe your FFL may be mistaken about no German guns being availible.

Here is a pretty interesting web page for the 99. www.praxagora.com/lunde/WaltherP99FAQ/
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 8:05:19 AM EDT
I have fired lots of rounds through my Walther and it has been a real trooper. I have 8 or 9 hicap mags for it and I intend to keep it for quite some time.

I have heard lots of horror stories about the S&W version. The ones I have handled are not as well made as my Walther, nor are their triggers as good. The Walther is also an accurate little 9mm.

If you are looking for a decent compact little polymer 9mm, the Walther is the ticket. It is more ergonomic than a Glock, the trigger and sights are better, and the grip is adjustable.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 8:07:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jeep29:
My favorite dealer had 5 Walthers in stock last weekend. Three 99's, one 99QA, and one 990. All of them were priced at $536. He had both black and green but I don't remember which models were what color. There are plenty of Walthers out there so I believe your FFL may be mistaken about no German guns being availible.

Here is a pretty interesting web page for the 99. www.praxagora.com/lunde/WaltherP99FAQ/



By "German" guns, he probably means guns that don't have the S&W stamp on them. There are a few of those out there, but I have never seen one in real life. You will know a true German Walther because it has all the German stampings and proofmarks on it. Buy one that has the proofmarks on both the slide and the frame and you should be OK.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 3:53:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

I have heard lots of horror stories about the S&W version.
Must be true if it's on the net, eh?

The ones I have handled are not as well made as my Walther,
I looked very very hard & could tell absolutely NO difference. Where were the differences you found?


nor are their triggers as good.
Identical design, identical spring poundage AFAIK. What would make them different?


The Walther is also an accurate little 9mm.
I'll put my S&W99 against any Walther & I badmouthed S&W semi's for years.


Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:58:49 AM EDT
Earl's Repair Service in Tewksbury, MA is an importer and dealer of ALL-German Walthers!

www.carlwalther.com/p99.htm

He got an import license prior to the ban on hi-cap mags and thus claims to be the only US source for 16rd pre-ban P99 mags.

His prices are not low, but he really knows his stuff and is a straight-shooter!

He told me that the German guns are very different from the hybrid S&W/Walther ones.

He is at all the MA gun shows if he isn't back in Germany on a business trip (he goes back to his home country a few times each year).

I have bought a gun and accessories from him.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:57:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

I have heard lots of horror stories about the S&W version.
Must be true if it's on the net, eh?

Not necessarily, but the NJ State Police did adopt the SW99. And then promptly dropped them like a bad habit.

The ones I have handled are not as well made as my Walther,
I looked very very hard & could tell absolutely NO difference. Where were the differences you found?

The slides had more tooling marks. The sights were loose. The breechface was rougher. Stuff like that.

nor are their triggers as good.

Identical design, identical spring poundage AFAIK. What would make them different?

Dunno, maybe being made to a lower standard? Maybe the same reason that they kept puking on the NJSP?

The Walther is also an accurate little 9mm.
I'll put my S&W99 against any Walther & I badmouthed S&W semi's for years.

Then you have a good specimen of an Sw99. Count yourself lucky...



Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:19:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
How does the US made version by S&W stack up against the German made gun?

Thanks



When I asked a few months ago, a few non-arfcommers saw my post and emailed me (use search if you have it as I posted some of the info.) and basically said the coatings on the slide were different and that the accsy. rails were different, but other than that it was an upper made in the U.S. by S&W vs. an upper made in Germany by Walther.

My first P99 (american upper by S&W) would not fire in SA (just went click), but Davidson's replaced it and the second one has been flawless. YMMV.

The guys who answered my questions seemed pretty up on the differences and were hanging out here: www.gothammarketing.com/ikon/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi back then...

FWIW: the first dealer I asked about a P99 insisted that I not by an american model because they were a POS, blah, blah. I later realized he had a major woody for S&W and slammed them every chance he got so I checked it out on my own and like it very much :')

HTH
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:51:21 PM EDT
About 3 months ago I bought a SW99 9mm, I had some problems it would not fire 115gr with out stovepiping and lots of FTE's, funny it would fire 124's and 147's but the 115's would give it problems. I called S&W on their toll free number and explained the problem, they sent a Fedex man about 2 days later and it was Fedex'ed back about 1 week and a half later, problem fixed. I was pleased with the customer service. The gun has a lifetime guarantee. It is a good shooting gun, the first trigger pull takes some getting used to. The decocker is great and it cleans easy. I would have to say if I had to buy a gun from S&W I would buy it again....
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 9:27:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Curious, is there a way to get a German Walther P99?
My FFL told me he could only get the S&W version now.


http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14350430
http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14273372
http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14274014
http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14333016

there are a ton on gunbroker
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:47:23 PM EDT
It's been my experience that when a dealer says he can't get Model "X", he either doesn't want to mess with it (too lazy) or he wants to sell something out of his own stock regardless of what his customer wants.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:53:29 PM EDT
Just making 'em active. Easier that way. Thanks




Originally Posted By -Absolut-:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Curious, is there a way to get a German Walther P99?
My FFL told me he could only get the S&W version now.


gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14350430
gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14273372
gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14274014
gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=14333016

there are a ton on gunbroker

Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:17:03 PM EDT
NONE of the URLs lead to a definite GERMAN made P99. Two of them state in the description that they are "Walther USA" (ergo, S&W). If any of them were German made, they'd likely say so in the description as they command more $ (and there are no bids on any of these listed here).
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 3:11:07 AM EDT
If it says "Walther" on it instead of "S&W", there's a 90% chance that it's 100% German.

Lunde's guide will tell you all the little things to look for, like the varios proof marks and such... you can see it here ---> http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/WaltherP99FAQ/IV/3.html

Virtually every one I've seen is %100 German, and got for about $560 - $600 where I am.

Have fun.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 6:26:21 AM EDT
I was a four year owner of a P99 40. Outside of the first box of fifty, I never had one issue with factory ammo and only one issue with reloads. I owned one in 99 and had to regularly defend this new upstart against Glocks and Styers(remember those).

I care not to comment on the virtue of Walther and SW. I never bothered with the Smith as they were on the boycott list.

THe NJSP dropping the SW were due more to stupid North East politics than anything else. New Jersy took a great little package and asked for customizations in the trigger group to make it more of a glock, but with a twist. i.e. Being able to decock the second strike ability away among other things. In essence they wanted a heavy pull to a 99QA, a glock trigger like the 990 with the trigger positions of the 99.

SW said "sure" and tried, but failed, which was a great disservice to the Walther and SW, but an appropropriate balck eye to the Swith at a time when they needed to be rejected by LEO's as well as citizens. Since then Walter has developed the three separate triggers to taylor to whatever taste you have.

Stock guns = standard options. New Jersey should have bought glock or rugers if they wanted glocks or rugers.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 10:58:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dregan:
If it says "Walther" on it instead of "S&W", there's a 90% chance that it's 100% German.

Lunde's guide will tell you all the little things to look for, like the varios proof marks and such... you can see it here ---> http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/WaltherP99FAQ/IV/3.html

Virtually every one I've seen is %100 German, and got for about $560 - $600 where I am.

Have fun.



I am told by Earl's Repair Service that if it says "Walther USA" on it, it is NOT a German Gun!! I own one of these and on the slide it says "Walther USA LLC Springfield, MA" while the frame says "Made in Germany". The gun was made in the US with both German (frame) and US (slide) parts.

The owner of Earl's is a German who returns to the factory a number of times/year and imports directly from Germany ALL German guns. He says there is a world of difference in quality between the ALL German guns and the ones that S&W assembles in MA. I believe him and he spent ~10 minutes explaining some of it to me the last time I saw him.

I know that my all German PPK/S and H&K USPc's are superb quality firearms and light-years ahead of S&W quality, in my personal experiences with numerous firearms.

You may believe as you like, but I'll take his word for it, as he has a hell of a lot more expertise in this area than I do.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 3:34:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LenS:
The owner of Earl's is a German who returns to the factory a number of times/year and imports directly from Germany ALL German guns. He says there is a world of difference in quality between the ALL German guns and the ones that S&W assembles in MA.
Honestly, what did you expect him to say?


I know that my all German PPK/S and H&K USPc's are superb quality firearms and light-years ahead of S&W quality, in my personal experiences with numerous firearms.
While I am also a H&K junkie, I wouldn't say they're more than a bit better than my SW99.


Link Posted: 12/14/2003 6:06:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LenS:

Originally Posted By Dregan:
If it says "Walther" on it instead of "S&W", there's a 90% chance that it's 100% German.

Lunde's guide will tell you all the little things to look for, like the varios proof marks and such... you can see it here ---> http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/WaltherP99FAQ/IV/3.html

Virtually every one I've seen is %100 German, and got for about $560 - $600 where I am.

Have fun.



I am told by Earl's Repair Service that if it says "Walther USA" on it, it is NOT a German Gun!! I own one of these and on the slide it says "Walther USA LLC Springfield, MA" while the frame says "Made in Germany". The gun was made in the US with both German (frame) and US (slide) parts.

The owner of Earl's is a German who returns to the factory a number of times/year and imports directly from Germany ALL German guns. He says there is a world of difference in quality between the ALL German guns and the ones that S&W assembles in MA. I believe him and he spent ~10 minutes explaining some of it to me the last time I saw him.

I know that my all German PPK/S and H&K USPc's are superb quality firearms and light-years ahead of S&W quality, in my personal experiences with numerous firearms.

You may believe as you like, but I'll take his word for it, as he has a hell of a lot more expertise in this area than I do.



My P99 has the 2002 date stamp on the frame, showing it was made in 2002. Mine is a .40 by the way. It also has all the German proof marks. I've never seen a German made that said anything but 'Walther USA LLC'.

If you want to say the Germans shipped all the parts and they were assembled at SW, then I don't know. I don't think SW could screw up putting the slide on the frame. Not that I'm putting SW down as I've owned many fine SW products, autos and revolvers. My understanding is that the only real problems with the P99 or SW 99 were the early magazines.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 7:38:05 PM EDT
Bob,

He wasn't trying to sell me anything. He knew that I already owned one of the Walther/S&W P99s. I have bought one firearm from him in the past and deeply respect his knowledge of the product.

In addition, I get treated as a "dealer" at the shows, since he knows me as the person from Gun Owners Action League (MA) who works the gun shows. So, most dealers don't try to BS me when I walk up to their table wearing the same "Dealer" badge that they do.

BTW, I have no complaints about my P99! But I still believe that there is a quality difference between the German and US versions.

Link Posted: 12/14/2003 7:39:06 PM EDT
Jimb,

According to Earl's, S&W is mfg the slides, not just assembling them.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 2:02:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LenS:
Jimb,

According to Earl's, S&W is mfg the slides, not just assembling them.



I'm sure they are making the SW marked slides but to my knowlege they haven't the capablility to do the Tennifer (sp) coating the german made slides have. The SW made slides have a different coating system from the German slides. Also, I don't think they would be allowed to put the eagle over n proof marks on a SW slide.

The person at Earl's might have not completely understood the question or might have incomplete knowlege of the origin of the parts.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 2:48:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 2:52:00 PM EDT by martinmayhem]
I don't know if this helps anyone's case, but my P99 with a serial number < 1500 is a German made Walther. Here is a pic of the frame with the "made in Germany" stamp.



edited to make the picture show up - duh!
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 3:14:54 PM EDT
My Walther P99's slide does not say "Walther USA LLC". It has the Walther Banner on the left front side and the "Eagle+N" proof mark on the back right side of the slide. It was imported by Interarms and has a stamp on the front right side of the slide.

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:06:12 AM EDT
Mine has slide and frame that were made in Germany. There is a Smith and Wesson roll-mark on the right front of the slide, but all the parts still have the eagle over N proof mark. Everything is stamped made in Germany.

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:07:30 AM EDT
Comments on Martin's pics:
- My frame has identical lettering to Martin's (made in Germany).
- Pin in trigger is located higher up on mine than Martin's.
- front edge of trigger on mine is ~1/8" forward of Martin's.
- Slide on mine has NO proof marks from anyone, at least not visibly without disassembly.
- My slide is marked S&W in the location where Martin's has Interarms' markings.
- Martin's shows a step-down on the front part of the slide. Mine is smooth and at the same level all the way down the side of the slide (except for cut-out to eject shells).

BTW, mine was bought new 2/02 with a S/N 46xxxx.

SO, there really are some serious differences between the US/German mixed mfr and the German only.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:38:59 AM EDT


Hopefully the pic above will show what I wrote about in prior post.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 4:04:19 PM EDT
I guess I hadn't paid too much attention to the more recent production of p99's. Your picture really does show the difference in slides. I bought my gun in April 1998 from a friend who had ordered it new as soon as they came out. This was well before S&W was involved in the importation of the gun.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:21:57 PM EDT
Your picture highlights some differences.

My P99 has the eagle over n to the rear of the serrations on the slide and on the barrel directly under the Walther banner.

The Walther USA replaces the Interarms logo showing the importer. I don't think this has anything to do with SW making the slide.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 1:38:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 1:41:32 PM EDT by cobra-ak]

Originally Posted By LenS:
NONE of the URLs lead to a definite GERMAN made P99. Two of them state in the description that they are "Walther USA" (ergo, S&W). If any of them were German made, they'd likely say so in the description as they command more $ (and there are no bids on any of these listed here).

Went to a funshow today here in Miami and after reading this thread went to look at some Walther P99's, all the calibers had the slide marked Walther USA, S&W, can someone explain this to me, I thought that slides were German. Are they German and just marked S&W?
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