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Posted: 11/24/2003 5:17:12 PM EDT
I have spent some time with an HK USPc .40 cal that belongs to my buddy, and I loved every minute of it. However, the fullsize version in 9mm would better suit my large hands and ammo budget. I would like to try some IDPA events and my Glock 23 ain't gonna cut it for accuracy. Please tell me what to avoid as I am fairly new to HK pistols. My mind is almost made up, but i'm open to horror stories or dramatic praise. Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 5:40:15 PM EDT
I love my USP 45, and I just got a new USP 9c yesterday.

Go for it. Its the best pistol out there, IMHO.

Only thing to watch for, dont ride the thumb safety of a variant one pistol, to easy to decock it that way.
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 6:04:00 PM EDT
Bad Ass.

You are right, 9mm ammo is cheaper and since HK factory high-cap mags can hold 15-18 rounds (depending on mag), its a great choice-- probably the best choice.

The USP45 is also a good choice, except for the questionable high-caps and more expensive ammo.

I am not into .40 S&W, so I don't know too much about it, other than I believe that the original HK full size was built for a .40 S&W, then adapted for a 9mm, then they made some size changes to fit the .45 ACP.
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 6:11:33 PM EDT
Oh yeah, if I could, I would get variant 3 (I think that's the one) where you have the de-cock only (no safety), so you don't get hung up on the damn safety while shooting competition or defending yourself or others...
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 6:21:55 PM EDT
E, I like the single action, the trigger pull is a lot lighter and I prefer having the safety engaged.
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 6:41:24 PM EDT
When I was at Gunsite in 2000 the instructors were rather upset that someone brought a USP to class. They told him he would hate it at the end of the week and he did. The 1911s, P7s, Glocks and Sigs did fine.

From watching the guy struggle with one at Gunsite and shooters at IDPA matches I've noticed the following. The double action trigger pull is horrible making you want to carry it cocked and locked. If you do carry cocked and locked then you can accidentally decock on the draw knocking the safety down on a variant one. Get the variant 9-10 without the decock. It also seems like USP shooters accidentally drop mags often, again from watching them shoot IDPA. The USP also has a high bore axis that exaggerates recoil. Tucson PD was the largest single users of USP pistols and is phasing then out for Glocks. They had parts breakage problems and poor factory support from HK.
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 7:54:17 PM EDT
Innocent Bystander, I own both Glock and HK, and HK is by far the superior firearm. I have never dropped a mag, I do not have difficulty disengaging the safety without decocking, and I find recoil to be little more than my Glcok, when firing similar ammunition.

BTW, the USPs bore height is similar to most pistols out there, the only two that really have low height over bore are Glock and 1911.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:01:37 AM EDT
If your serious about IDPA I would recomend the Glock 34. The gun comes stock with IDPA legal extended mag release and slide stop/release. All you need to do is get some adjustable sights like the Dawson fiber optics, and respring the trigger (optional but worthwild) and you'll have the hot set-up for IDPA, and USPSA/IPSC production class.

The HK USP does have a high bore axis and funky dual recoil spring that flips more when you rapid fire, or do strong hand/weak hand only shooting. It's a matter of leverage, low bore axis is a advantage, high bore axis which the USP is among the highest is a disadvantage. The double action trigger on the USP is also terrible. The USP also has a shorter barrel when compared to a similar sized glock.

I'm sure some people shoot the USP just fine. Perhaps the majority of the shooting is at a traditional shooting range where they slow fire. Go to any IDPA or USPSA/IPSC match and ask and look around. Very few people if any will be running USP's. For shooting sports I would recommend a 1911, Glock, CZ 75, or XD-9.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:06:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 4:06:58 AM EDT by Dredd308]
THERE IS NO WAY TO ACCIDENTALLY DROP A MAG FROM A USP!

The mag release is a bar accross the bottom of the trigger guard. It rests on top of you middle finger. The only way for the mag to drop, is if you dont seat it correctly!

Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:16:15 AM EDT
I've owned four USPs. I sold my USP9 to my brother (just because I'm not a big fan of the 9mm round, but thats another thread).

I shoot IDPA with my 45compact. I have thousands of rounds thru my USPs, I've never dropped a magazine, NOR have I ever accidentally de-cocked one.

Is the double action trigger heavy? Yes.
I carry mine cocked and locked. Like my 1911s, I've never gotten hung up on either safety.

I still cant get over some of the crap on this board, everytime somebody askes abount a SPECIFIC firearm, somebody has to say "dont buy that!, get a XXXXX.

If they wanted to know about XXXXX brand they would have asked in the first place.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:48:35 AM EDT
I didn't say don't buy one, I just mentioned the flaws I know of that would affect me. Every firearm has design ideas that you'll find don't suit you if you shoot enough. We don't live in a perfect world. You can carry your USP cocked and locked to overcome the crappy double action if you want. You cannot use it cocked and locked in IDPA stock service pistol class. And yes, I have witnessed them being accidentally decocked on the draw and mags accidentally dropped.

And yes, I own and shoot a Glock 34 as well. Not only is the 34 a great pistol for IDPA SSP, the 34 won the IPSC stock nationals this year. Beating Leatham and his 1911 while shooting minor!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:08:35 AM EDT
I_B not a flame, but have you ever shot a USP?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:41:54 AM EDT
Yes, I have shot one. It was a .40.

Yes, I do like the single action trigger.

Yes, I like the safety but I shot a variant one. If I was to keep it I would change it to a variant 9 or 10. The double action trigger sucks, period.

No, I did not drop the mag accidentally. But I've seen it happen enough to wonder what is going on. I think it's strictly related to a poor grip.

Yes, I sensed the high bore axis caused a little more flip.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:44:57 AM EDT
Again, I think anybody that dropped a mag, didnt have it seated.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:54:15 AM EDT
Never dropped a mag here. My guess is they didn't know what they were doing.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:13:28 PM EDT
I own 2 USP compacts, a .45acp & .357Sig. Love them both but do agree the trigger is a bit less than perfect.

I do suggest you try the 9mm Compact as it seems to balance better for me than its fullsize brethern & I too have hands.

My .o2
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:24:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
When I was at Gunsite in 2000 the instructors were rather upset that someone brought a USP to class. They told him he would hate it at the end of the week and he did. The 1911s, P7s, Glocks and Sigs did fine.

From watching the guy struggle with one at Gunsite and shooters at IDPA matches I've noticed the following. The double action trigger pull is horrible making you want to carry it cocked and locked. If you do carry cocked and locked then you can accidentally decock on the draw knocking the safety down on a variant one. Get the variant 9-10 without the decock. It also seems like USP shooters accidentally drop mags often, again from watching them shoot IDPA. The USP also has a high bore axis that exaggerates recoil. Tucson PD was the largest single users of USP pistols and is phasing then out for Glocks. They had parts breakage problems and poor factory support from HK.



Ok , we'll do this one more time.........ahhhhh never mind.
Suffice it to say that **gasp** money/cost was the MAJOR reason TPD went to glockbs.
Oh, that and the TPD armorer is a rabid glockb nut. But that wouldn't have anything to do with anything.......would it ??
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:02:08 AM EDT
The USP is awsome!! I have shot my fathers 9mm many times and never had a problem. I don't know what vaiant it is but I do know it is single action only. I just looked at the USP tactical and I WANT ONE!!! I hope to purchase one with in the next couple of months man they are SWEET!!

On a side note, High cap mags are pricey. That should change in SEP 04...
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 8:32:01 PM EDT
i have a usp fullsize .45 and have only found one major problem with it. I CANT STOP SHOOTING IT! its a great gun and i have had 0 probs with it (and prolly never will)<--knock on wood
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:08:04 PM EDT
Guys, how does the P2000 figure into the problems the I_B brought up?
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:15:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:
Guys, how does the P2000 figure into the problems the I_B brought up?



I think HK has seen the light and thus came out with the P2000 to try to take on the Glock market. I have not handled one but it sounds like a step in the right direction.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:21:09 PM EDT
The HK P2000 is the latest service pistol development by Heckler & Koch. The design specifications when starting development were tough and short. They reflected the difficulty in today's police service and the resulting requirements: A pistol had to be designed, incorporating features which effectively reduce the probability of so-called "handling-related stress - drivers" during a police mission and which at the same time improve the hit-rate capabilities of the individual shooter due to modular grip sizes and ergonomic design concepts.

Now the new HK P2000 is ready for service. It is the consequent realisation of the guidelines above. Based on the advanced technology of the HK USP COMPACT / P10, it is perfectly tailored to the needs of today's police service.

Due to the modular design, the P2000 can be fitted to the individual needs of the shooter. Various trigger and cocking systems offers the possibility to convert trigger firing mode one type to another.

This unique pre-cocked hammer system combines the advantages of a cocked striker component (constant level of trigger pull and short trigger travel from first to last round fired) with the double action trigger system.

This ensures an extremely safe pistol with regard to unintended firing and in case of failure to ignite, the possibility of a second or third trigger pull without the need of first pulling the slide back to re-cock the system.


FEATURES:

+ Modular grip with exchangeable back straps to easily adjust the grip size to the shooters hand
+ Ideal size and weight to comply with the requirements of the full range of police missions, including concealed carry
+ Set of mounting grooves moulded into the polymer frame for installing accessory lights and laser aimers.
+ Ambidextrous slide release located on both sides of the frame.
+ Ambidextrous magazine release
+ Low profile slide and slim line, compact dimensions
+ Advanced design with contoured external surfaces to avoid snagging on holster and clothing
+ Polymer recoil absorber brushing (similar to the HK USP Compact) aids in recoil reduction
+ Very short trigger reset distance to enhance the speed of multiple of single follow=up shots
+ Polygonal cold-hammer forged barrel for less barrel wear, better gas seal behind bullet, and easier bore cleaning.
+ Rubber magazine floor plates to reduce damage to magazines and pistol in case of being dropped.


P2000

Innovative safety-trigger system with integrated striker in the hammer and ambidextrous decocking lever for shooting SA/DA mode.

P2000 V1

Innovative safety-trigger systems with integrated striker in the hammer at a constant level of trigger pull (Combat Defence action ca. 20N) from the first to the last round without decocking lever.

P2000 V2

As p2000 V1, but trigger pull CDA ca. 32,5N.

P2000 V3

Conventional SA/DA trigger and hammer with decocking lever.

P2000 V4

As P2000 V1, but trigger pull CDA ca. 27,5N

P2000 V5

Double Action Only ca. 35N

Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:28:09 PM EDT
Thanks!

I've been having trouble deciding between the P2000 & USP compact. I was going to pick one up this weekend but I decided to wait until I do more research.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:40:21 PM EDT
I'm thinking that the P2000 will replace the USP. The P2000 V1 sounds right.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 7:12:40 PM EDT
Can someone explain "Combat Defence action ca. 20N" to me?

I should stick with AR's because when it comes to handguns I'm clueless
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 5:43:25 AM EDT
20N is the trigger pull wieght. 1 Newton equals .225 pounds. So the trigger pull weight is about 4.5 pounds.
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 10:00:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
20N is the trigger pull wieght. 1 Newton equals .225 pounds. So the trigger pull weight is about 4.5 pounds.



AHHH, thank you.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 4:00:45 AM EDT
I purchased a H&K USP Compact .45 this past August and have used it in IDPA and IPSC. Yes, there have been problems with properly seating the mags - sometimes. I just hit the bottom of the mag to make sure it is fully engaged, which doesn't cause too much loss of time during the stages. However, I prefer my SIGs simply because they are already broken in and I have never been concerned with the mags not fully engaging first time -- every time.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 4:13:04 PM EDT
I was at the Small Arms Review Show this weekend and stopped by the HK booth. I played with several variants of the P2000. It is a step in the right direction from the complicated controls of the USP. Will it cause me to sell all of my Glocks, no.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:38:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 8:41:37 PM EDT by JimGA]

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Not only is the 34 a great pistol for IDPA SSP, the 34 won the IPSC stock nationals this year. Beating Leatham and his 1911 while shooting minor!



Correction: the competitor using a Glock Model 34 won the IPSC stock nationals, beating out the competitor who used a 1911 pistol.

Point: Pistols do not win matches, people do. I bet you Leatham could shoot a Glock 34 and Sevigny (sp?) could shoot a 1911 better than either you or me.

Link Posted: 12/8/2003 8:14:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
It is a step in the right direction from the complicated controls of the USP.






Which one of these do you consider a "complicated control"?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 8:33:48 AM EDT
I consider a safety that also functions as a decock to be complicated. And from this description of their new pistol so does HK.


"The HK P2000 is the latest service pistol development by Heckler & Koch. The design specifications when starting development were tough and short. They reflected the difficulty in today's police service and the resulting requirements: A pistol had to be designed, incorporating features which effectively reduce the probability of so-called "handling-related stress - drivers" during a police mission and which at the same time improve the hit-rate capabilities of the individual shooter due to modular grip sizes and ergonomic design concepts."
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 8:40:37 AM EDT
Complicated controls?
Dropped mags?
Decocking the pistol accidently?
I just got back from the range with my USP45 and shot 5 boxes of ammo.
Drawing, shooting, drawing, shooting, quick reloads, etc.
No problems whatsoever.
I've never had any of the problems you had and have never seen anybody else have those problems.
Frankly I would be alittle embarrassed to say the controls are too complicated for me.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 11:05:19 AM EDT
Slow fire at a traditional target range is different. There is no stress.

The closest thing to the real thing without being shot at is tactical training and competition. The USP is not very popular at pistol matches for numerous reasons.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:20:57 PM EDT
If you are concerned about decocking problems, the best solution to the problem is installation of the ambi safety. This solution is ideal for several reasons. You hand stop the safety from being pushed all the way to the decock position unless you shift your grip. Firstly, it is cheaper than variant swapping. Secondly you retain the ability to decock. Thirdly, in the event of a struggle and injury, you improve your ability to fire from your weak hand. Finally, installation of the ambi safety is supposed to be easy enough for most people to do themselves.

As for accidental mag release, how would that happen. I like the design of the USP mag release more than just about any other gun out there.

I've had a USP tactical for some time. I don't know why anyone would flat out hate em. The trigger isn't the best but accuracy and reliability are great. I like the controls, unlike the 1911 they suit my stubby thumbs well. I don't know why people cling to the 1911. Modern european firearms such as glock, sig, HK and walther work great right out of the box over 95% of the time. Sure can't say that about most 1911's. The USP isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I feel it's one of the finest firearms available right now. Regarding the P2000, I hear good things. It's been describe to me as being between of the P99 and the USP. Both are fine firearms, so that is a pretty flattering description.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 8:14:39 PM EDT
I had a USP .45 for several years with a few high cap mags before it was stolen.[>(]

I really loved that pistol. I NEVER had a seating problem. NEVER had the safety go off while drawing from a holster. The controls were intuitive to the point that no thought was required to use it. It would shoot anything. It never failed to fire once after thousands of rounds. It was VERY accurate. The flip of the recoil might have been a little more than my 1911, but not much. I will be getting another one some day. Right after I get my Wilson CQB. Gonna have to move to another state to get one though. Not enough safety annoyances on it for People Republic of Maryland.
Buy a USP. You will absolutely love it.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 4:57:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
Slow fire at a traditional target range is different. There is no stress.

The closest thing to the real thing without being shot at is tactical training and competition. The USP is not very popular at pistol matches for numerous reasons.



I shoot IDPA with mine, a Compact .45, and happen to do very well against the other guys the use Glocks, and 1911s.
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