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Posted: 10/20/2003 7:07:18 AM EDT
I am looking to write a comprehensive article on the M9, warts and all. There are a lot of people out there bitching about the Beretta pistols and repeating the 8 million S.E.A.L.s decapitated by flying Beretta parts hokum, and I want to write up an article that deals with the hoopla surrounding the M9 with FACTS and not stories that my cousin Bubba heard that one guy at the gunstore tell that one time.

Hours of web searching has not yeilded anything useful.

So if you have any CREDIBLE evidence of M9/92FS failures, (official reports, tests, photographic evidence, etc...) please send them my way.

My goal here is to settle the myths about the M9/92FS and get to the truth, warts and all. Your help is greatly appreciated...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:23:06 AM EDT
I would look forward to such an article. The fact that your search has so far produced nothing would suggest there isn't much to it.

Had my 92 since the late eighties. Zero malfunctions. Zero parts breakage.

The military seems to have hushed up this whole issue. From what little I was able to turn up in the gun press at the time it seemed to be an ammunition issue and not a firearm issue. Basically running hundreds of rounds of near proof loads thru the M-9's. Yes, that will break an M-9. Or a SIG. Or a 1911.

Good luck in your search.

Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:58:04 AM EDT
The only decent source I have found says there was also an issue with using tellurium in part of the manufacturing process. The source says that this weakened the slide enough to cause the premature fractures.

This is the only halfway decent information I have found thusfar...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:36:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:02:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: I want to write up an article that deals with the hoopla surrounding the M9 with FACTS and not stories that my cousin Bubba heard that one guy at the gunstore tell that one time.


If you have all this experience with the Beretta as you claim to have you do not need anyone's help. You can write your own book.

If you have fired thousands of rounds through YOUR Beretta in IDPA and won all those matches with it like you claim to you don't need anyone's help.

If you have been to "Blackwater" and outshot the instructors with your Beretta as you claim you alredy know all there is to know.

No one is going to convince you that your Beretta is a POS just like you will never convince me my Glock has "reliability issues" and "does not shoot worth spit".

Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:35:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 12:40:53 PM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Firstly, I have fired many thousands of rounds through my Beretta 92s without significant issue. (once the parts in my original 92fs were fixed) This, however, is completely irrelevant to the request for information, as it does not mean I have fired thousands of rounds of ammo through EVERY 92 that has ever been produced. Thus I am seeking legitimate documentation on the problems that the 92 platform experienced. (And unlike a lot of Glock Lickers, I do not stubbornly insist that the 92 was delivered perfect on day 1. It has obviously gone through R&D to make it better. The Glock Lickers think that the Glock was delivered immaculately by the loins of Gaston...)

Secondly, I have never ONCE stated that I have ever competed in IDPA or that I have won any championships. Never. Not once.

Thirdly, I DID outshoot my Blackwater instructors on several drills with my Beretta 92. I did NOT, however, claim to know everything there is to know about weapons or tactics. Never. Not once. In fact, I stated just the opposite in several of the threads you apparently didn't read very well.

Fourthly, it is true that no one will convince me that the Beretta is a POS. They will also not convince me that the world is flat. The assertion simply is not true.

I am seeking information on the slide fractures and supposed field failures that everyone and his brother seems to have a story about, but no evidence of.

Now should you wish to contribute something of substance to this quest, I am all ears. But if not, then please don't attempt to hijack it by spewing wildly in-accurate accusations and silliness.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:39:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I have a magazine article somewhere about it. It claimed that the failures were due to high power 9mm SMG ammo being used in 92s by the Seals. The modification to the slide did not make it any stronger, it just made sure that if the slide failed it would not come completely off the rear of the pistol.

I will look around to see if I still have the article. I think Andy Stamford wrote it.



The overpressure ammo angle is an oft repeated one, but I know of no actual hard evidence to back this up. It is precisely this evidence that I am looking for.

Beretta introduced the heavier Brigadeer slide to adress some of these concerns. The newer slide profile has a lot more beef around the area that engages the locking block, making it stronger.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:55:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Now should you wish to contribute something of substance to this quest, I am all ears. But if not, then please don't attempt to hijack it by spewing wildly in-accurate accusations and silliness.



Much like Dean Speir you write this BS and then deny it when everything you write is still there for EVERYONE to see.

If you want photos of a bunch of broken slides look for the former USMC armorer and current New Orleans cop that is on Assault Web sometimes.

He goes by FN74, AK74, Dixie Jarhead and a few other handles on different boards.

He has exactly the info you don't want to see and he has offered to send you the photos before. Apparently you did not wish to see them.

Also I really can't see what the difference is between "Glock lickers" and those that swear by the Beretta.

If us "Glock lickers" claim our guns are accurate and reliable then we must have some serious mental problems because we are loyal to that brand.

If you claim to have no problems out of your Beretta and claim it is better than the Glock then why do you not have the same mental problem?

I don't see the difference.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:03:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 3:04:52 PM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Yes the stuff I have written is STILL there for everyone to see. Which is why I say without fear of contradiction:

I never claimed to be a champion in or even compete in IDPA.

There was a guy who won the IDPA championships a couple of times with a Beretta, and his name is Earnest Langdon. Seems that he just won ANOTHER IDPA championship too. He beats out the Glocks all the time.

I never claimed to know more than my instructors at Blackwater. I did beat them on some drills, but so what? If I thought I knew everything I would not be going back to Blackwater in April.

I am STILL awaiting the photos and evidence from the person you cite. If you will recall, I asked him a long time ago to please send me any photo evidence he had on that. As yet he has not done so. My request for that information is on the thread for all to see. Go back and look again. I also want to know round counts, the approximate dates he was seeing these problems, whether or not there were broken locking blocks, etc.

Glock lickers are those who swear that their choice of handgun is infallible, and immediately start assailing anyone who challenges their blind loyalty with personal attacks and purile textual abuse. By that definition, there are LOTS of Glock Lickers out there.

I have defended the Beretta against unjust criticism, but I am not a Beretta licker. The whole point of this post is to find out about the slide breakage problem! I do not debate its existence early in the life of the 92, I am trying to find the facts among the whirlwinds of crud that is out there. Everyone seems to "know" that they are a POS, but very few people seem to prove it.

Glock lickers refuse to acknowledge their guns ever have a problem, even when they do. Thus I do not qualify.

Now how about stopping the mudslinging and provide some proof or just wait for someone else to provide some? When I actually write the article, I will be posting it online and will have links to it on all the boards that I have requested information from.

Then you can feel free to tear it apart.

If you are hellbent on playing the "mine is bigger than yours" game, then I will remind you that I will be back at Blackwater April 19-23. Bring your combat tupperware and we can have the instructors set up a little man on man competition, and then we can seperate the men from the boys as it were...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:17:35 PM EDT
Email the folks at Dalphon.com. They currently make AR-15 pistol cal uppers but I seem to remember them making a Brigadier type slide a decade ago to address the rumored slide breakages. They may have some more insight into documented failures. For the record, while the M9 isn't a natural pointer in my hand, I shot them competitively in the Marines and coached on the range as well. I have personally never seen or met anyone claiming to have seen a major failure in a clean pistol and some of the more serious shooters were firing tens of thousands of rounds yearly.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:22:58 PM EDT
And who in the hell are you, PILGRIM?

Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:28:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GreenLocust:
Email the folks at Dalphon.com. They currently make AR-15 pistol cal uppers but I seem to remember them making a Brigadier type slide a decade ago to address the rumored slide breakages. They may have some more insight into documented failures. For the record, while the M9 isn't a natural pointer in my hand, I shot them competitively in the Marines and coached on the range as well. I have personally never seen or met anyone claiming to have seen a major failure in a clean pistol and some of the more serious shooters were firing tens of thousands of rounds yearly.



This has been consistent with my experience as well. I think the Beretta M9 got a bad rep because of problems in its early life. The M-16 also suffered startup issues, but has proven to be a good weapon overall, though some still swear it is a POS.

I think that the M9/92 pistols produced today are good quality firearms and they have given me reliable service when properly maintained.

This is why I am trying to find out the truth (there is obviously some truth to the M9 slide failure issue) and seperate it from fiction. I want to be able to present an accurate history of the M9's problems to try and clear up some of the nonsense out there about them.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:32:18 AM EDT
Slide failures were a non-issue that was sorted out a long time ago. A simple fix with some locking block radiusing.

Trigger springs and magazines that dont work in the dirt are bigger issues these days.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:37:37 AM EDT
A google search of "M9 slide failures" took me to the gun zone and the story about it.
You probably have been there already.
If Beretta makes the 96 in .40 cal, they must have corrected the problem, I would guess.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 11:33:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By anothergene:
A google search of "M9 slide failures" took me to the gun zone and the story about it.
You probably have been there already.
If Beretta makes the 96 in .40 cal, they must have corrected the problem, I would guess.



Yes Beretta produces the model 96 in .40 S&W
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 2:04:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anothergene:
A google search of "M9 slide failures" took me to the gun zone and the story about it.
You probably have been there already.



Dean Speir is supermarket tabloid type journalist and his writing consists of HIS bias and HIS opinions. The facts do not matter to him. Those that tend to agree with his OPINIONS tend to like him. Those that gain their knowledge from experience can see through his BS.

He is master of misleading BS. He lies by not telling the entire story.

Liberals running for office can learn a lot from him.

If he is the only source of info on broken Beretta slides then there is NO credible source.

Since the overall VAST majority of Beretta owners have NEVER seen a broken slide one can fairly well conclude that this problem is either a early problem that is now fixed or it was never a problem is any large numbers.


While I really hate to agree with John Wayne the Beretta is a good reliable trouble free pistol and the experience of the vast majority of it's owners proves this to be true.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 2:43:53 PM EDT
Your going to have to go back to 1987-88 and search DOD(department of defense) and GAO(government accounting office) records so you have your work cut out for you as there is ALOT of testimony on this subject. Look for records in the House Subcommittee on Legisaltion and National Security. The month of September(1988) is interesting. Specifically I know a failure happened on July 14 1988 at Fort Story Virginia but if you want the documentaion your going to have to do all the digging yourself. Everybody got a word in on this subject so you have ALOT of reading ahead of you. It's all credible unless you do not believe government records. There are no secerts about how many and why they happened and the fixes made. All cold coffee now.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 4:23:47 AM EDT
Been working on that approach already, and I struck gold. I will be posting some info fairly soon (i hope...)
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 7:22:26 AM EDT
The info is pouring in! Many thanks to ColdBlue for his invaluable assistance on this issue!

Thusfar the research is bearing out what I thought it would say. To be honest the problem appears to be even smaller than I thought. When I write the article it will include the numbers and all the hardcore goodies I have found.

ColdBlue has provided me with some excellent documentation from an armorer level look at things so I can get a complete picture of the supply chain issues as well.

If others have this type of information, please e-mail me so I can get you a fax number...
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 7:36:23 AM EDT
J_W,

You might try posting this over in the MFR section at Tactical Forums, Force doesn't have a very high opinion of the M9 based on their experiences with them.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 11:56:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
J_W,

You might try posting this over in the MFR section at Tactical Forums, Force doesn't have a very high opinion of the M9 based on their experiences with them.



I have posted in all the service branch forums there, and have been shown previous threads where Frogman (a S.E.A.L.) has posted on this issue before. The reports on the Beretta seem to largely favor its reliability and mechanical soundness while complaining about a bad trigger and too-wide of a grip. The lack of power in the 9mm cartridge is also bemoaned a lot.

I thank you for the reference...
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 4:21:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2003 4:21:58 AM EDT by hoss622]
There was a guy who won the IDPA championships a couple of times with a Beretta, and his name is Earnest Langdon. Seems that he just won ANOTHER IDPA championship too. He beats out the Glocks all the time.

A very important thing to note here, is that Ernie Langdon won the nationals this year in CDP class, shooting a double action SIG 220 in .45. This just goes to show you that this guy can win any division he wants, with probably any gun, because he's that good. I'm not sure why he moved on from the Beretta, maybe he was just bored with it.

A friend of mine recently got his Beretta back from Langdon, after having extensive action and trigger work done. I guess the trigger's about as good as a Beretta can be made, but my own trigger finger is still offended by it. If it isn't a 1911 single action, or Smith & Wesson DA revolver, my snobbish trigger finger tends to turn its nose up at it.

For what its worth, I've been shooting IDPA for quite some time and can attest to the fact that Berettas and Glocks are both pretty reliable. I never saw a Beretta blow up, but I have seen this happen with a Glock .40, with factory ammo. It was pretty ugly. The trigger mechanism broke into many little plastic pieces, and the plastic frame cracked. The shooter's hand didn't feel very good either. Neither Glock or the ammunition manufacturer would own up to the failure, but Glock did replace / fix the gun.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 7:14:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2003 12:50:54 PM EDT by mr_camera_man]
Why are all you people pissing and moaning about Beretta vs. Glock, when everyone knows that the correct answer is 1911?!

Something else I'd like to find out is why the hell Beretta only uses thin, plain blueing on their slidesbarrels? How many posts have I read on this board about soldiers keeping spare barrels oil-soaked in ziploc baggies in their pockets?

Granted, most of us could go somewhere and have an M9 barrel refinished in something more durable, but our fine servicemen don't have that option... and a rusted-out barrel is more than a little nuisance in combat.

(edited to correct mistake pointed out by cornbread.)
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 11:00:36 AM EDT
Beretta bores are chrome lined. They will not rust.

The outside of the bore and the slide may.

Most people that know their shit would not carry a Beretta is such an enviroment if they had the choice of other guns and they also would avoid the 1911.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 12:54:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cornbread2:
Beretta bores are chrome lined. They will not rust.

The outside of the bore and the slide may.

Most people that know their shit would not carry a Beretta is such an enviroment if they had the choice of other guns and they also would avoid the 1911.



Very true on the chrome lining, but isn't it also likely that the outside of the barrel could rust so badly as to impede the function of the slide and/or locking block?

Unfortunately, a lot of soldiers don't have the choice of what they can carry in which environment, which is precisely why these questions need to be asked.

And I know that the 1911 isn't any more invincible than the Beretta in harsh environments... just trying to add fuel to the fire of the Glock fanboys!
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 6:31:57 AM EDT
As the owner of a pretty well used and moderately abused 92FS, here's my opinion on the finish durability.

The Bruniton finish is great, much better than bluing and way out ahead of many aftermarket polymer coatings. It's quite hard and can be worn and chipped away, but only under quite a bit of pressure. I only wish they used it everywhere.

The barrel, grip screws, and a couple other small parts I can't recall at the moment are simply blued, and they seem to attract rust in short order if not kept at least minimally oiled. I guess Beretta figured Bruniton would wear off the barrel pretty quickly.

I've used my Beretta in IDPA and USPSA matches, and it has been utterly reliable. The only complaint I've got is that it seems to throw brass far and wide.

I can't speak for the Army's M9s, but I would have no problem at all taking my 92FS or my Glock in harm's way if necessary. I trust both of them to do their part.

P.S.
Dean Speir may have his share of assholistic tendencies, but I put more stock in his research and writings than any of his contemporaries. He seems committed to finding and telling the truth... it seems his biggest sin is doing it in a rather abrasive manner at times.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 3:53:02 AM EDT
Oh boy. You done done it now...
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