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Posted: 10/18/2003 5:51:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 5:52:23 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Anybody know exactly what are the modifications done to make a regular 1911 into a MEU/SOC .45 that the Marines love so much? I've been toying with the idea of building a replica.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 5:55:55 PM EDT
No major mods, IIRC. I'm sure there's someone in here who has a pic or specs. A good Marine knows not to screw too much with a 1911 as john Browning knew what he was doing.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 7:01:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 7:24:36 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
MEU-SOC pistol:

Replacement slide on a GI frame
Bar-sto barrel
King's ambi-safety and grip safety
USMC made fixed hi-vis sights (no tritium)
Pachmayr grips
Long match trigger
Commander hammer
GI mainspring housing with lanyard loop
Usually fitted with Surefire dedicated lights

See this thread:

www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=975d1b8162933e6c660a499f67316a13&threadid=45697&highlight=MEU+SOC



The new MAR-SOC (Marine Special Operations Command) Det 1 pistol is based on a Kimber Series I, and can be seen here:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=31&t=6203&w=myTopicPop



Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:29:03 PM EDT
I've always wondered why the 1911's have chrome ejection ports.

Is there anyway to switch out a chrome one for a parkerized/blued one?
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:34:32 PM EDT
Its not chrome. Both guns are equiped with Bar-sto stainless steel barrels.

Most guns if they dont have a stainless barrel, have a blued barrel with the locking hood polished bare metal.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 10:40:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Its not chrome. Both guns are equiped with Bar-sto stainless steel barrels.

Most guns if they dont have a stainless barrel, have a blued barrel with the locking hood polished bare metal.



In the first pic the 'locking hood' is not stainless in color, is this because of being used and worn or just an odd camera/flash angle?

On, say a Glock/SIG/etc. what makes the locking hood evil black?

Sorry for the newbie like finish questions
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 10:59:48 PM EDT
Some of the barrels on the original MEU-SOC pistols appear to have been blackened. They originate at Stainless Bar-sto barrels.


Glocks have their barrel finished in Tenefer, Glocks proprietary finish, SIGs are blued steel with the top polished to bare metal. Thats why they rust so easily.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 11:42:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 11:44:52 PM EDT by Raulin]
I'm curious now too, looking at the pic of the soldier's 1911. Blued? Black Stainless?

Edit for: I'm referring to the ejection port portion color.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 11:47:12 PM EDT
I believe I mentioned the answer above.

Its a blackened stainless steel barrel.

ALL of the MEU-SOC pistols have them.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 6:15:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 6:16:06 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Thanks Lumpy196, you've pointed me in the right direction. Is their a manufacturer that makes a already built replica?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 12:46:52 PM EDT
Not of the original MEU-SOC pistol, but Lightfighter.com is offering a group buy on a Det-1 Kimber.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:17:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 1:56:07 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
How close do you consider the Det-1 Limber to be too the original MEU-SOC?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:33:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 1:36:07 PM EDT by tivoli410]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I believe I mentioned the answer above.

Its a blackened stainless steel barrel.

ALL of the MEU-SOC pistols have them.


Once again sorry for the newbie finish questions, but how is the barrel blackened? From wear and usage or intentially painted/refinished?

I have always wondered why they would take a nice gun and slap some shiny chrome on it to make it stick out. Un-tactical it seems.

[edited] Also, I remember some pictures in the past in which Marines were using 10 round mags that extended from the base of the grip. Any solid info on this? ... Wilson mags?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:37:42 PM EDT
There is a process for black oxiding stainless.

Robar offers it. They are also the only source for a rear sight that looks like the original MEU-SOC pistol's sight thats made by marine armorers.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:41:20 PM EDT
Thank you for all the info Lumpy, I've always taken note of your posts. You truely know your stuff.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:53:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 1:54:58 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Everything I know, I learned from people far more knowledgable than me. Just got to mine the nuggets

Also, according to Pat Rogers, they've always used Wilson 7 and 8 round magazines, no 10s.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:16:38 PM EDT
I'm curious now too, looking at the pic of the soldier's 1911. Blued? Black Stainless?

Edit for: I'm referring to the ejection port portion color.

Couldn't tell you, seeing as how that's a MARINE in the photo...

My nitpick of the day.

'Rah.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:29:16 PM EDT
Does anyone know how tight the military makes there 45's nowadays. Some people say super tight and sand cant get in and others say super loose so it works with sand/dirt. Like the slide to frame fit for example. I have a veteran friend who claims that I should not make my colt 45 any tighter because it would lower the reliability in combat situations, is this true?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:54:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MurdochsM4:
Does anyone know how tight the military makes there 45's nowadays. Some people say super tight and sand cant get in and others say super loose so it works with sand/dirt. Like the slide to frame fit for example. I have a veteran friend who claims that I should not make my colt 45 any tighter because it would lower the reliability in combat situations, is this true?



Slide to frame fit is not where accuracy is obtained. Accurate 1911's have very tight tolerances in the barrel to hood lockup and the barrel bushing at lockup.

The tighter the tolerances the less tolerance for dirt and crud. I would not choose the same 1911 to take into field facing combat that I carry CCW for self defense. Different Tools for different jobs.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:22:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brett_Bass:
I'm curious now too, looking at the pic of the soldier's 1911. Blued? Black Stainless?

Edit for: I'm referring to the ejection port portion color.

Couldn't tell you, seeing as how that's a MARINE in the photo...

My nitpick of the day.

'Rah.



Sigh... I just wanted to know which of the two I asked about. I missed the 'appear to be' as the original 'answer'.

OK, that was a prick post. Bad day, it's late, I'm cranky, and I'm always right so I'm not going to hit cancel now. lumpy- you always know your shit when someone throws out any question, no offense to the above. I like it when you show off pics of your guns too .

Oh, and no offense Brett_Bass.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:26:21 PM EDT
None taken. Just doin' my thing.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:37:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Also, according to Pat Rogers, they've always used Wilson 7 and 8 round magazines, no 10s.

There was a pic floating around of one of Saddam's sons being carried out on a carpet, and one of the U.S. servicemen had a 1911 with a 10-rounder in it. Of course, in question of that particular picture there's some uncertainty what unit the gentleman with the 1911 belongs to (though Delta would be a good assumption.)
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:00:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 3:10:24 AM EDT by Lumpy196]
Task Force 20, IIRC, is entirely an Army unit.

Have to draw our own conclusions as to who the black helmeted guys with customized 1911s are:

Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:30:47 AM EDT
Shhhh! They don't exist! You will ruin the suprise...
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:33:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Have to draw our own conclusions as to who the black helmeted guys with customized 1911s are:

www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid77/p93b8fe2dbe86797ae2a9cd855eaf1b4c/fb2c8c1f.jpg

I like how that grip looks (and might be) an old wooden grip that's all beaten to hell. For some reason I 'm having flashbacks to Bud White's revolver in L.A. Confidential.
(Anytime you can relate something to a movie you should. )
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 12:29:00 PM EDT
I personally like the safety disabled with electrical tape around the grip.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:21:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rlongnt:
I personally like the safety disabled with electrical tape around the grip.

Gotta love it.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:42:19 PM EDT
Far more likely to be a band of rubber innertube. Electrical tape doesnt stick for shit, especially in hot temps.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:53:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Thanks Lumpy196, you've pointed me in the right direction. Is their a manufacturer that makes a already built replica?



Yup.

ironbrigadearmory.com/meusoc.htm



Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:55:27 PM EDT
Unfortunately, that gun doesnt match up with the original MEU-SOC pistol or the new DET-1 Kimber feature for feature.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:58:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 7:51:51 PM EDT by Hoplophile]

Originally Posted By BobCole:
No major mods, IIRC. I'm sure there's someone in here who has a pic or specs. A good Marine knows not to screw too much with a 1911 as john Browning knew what he was doing.

EDITED: On the 'real' pistol they're doing a lot more custom work than I'd personally choose, but the interim pistol they're buying from Kimber is just about perfect, IMO.


Originally Posted By tivoli410:
I've always wondered why the 1911's have chrome ejection ports.

Is there anyway to switch out a chrome one for a parkerized/blued one?

It isn't chrome, it is simply unfinished metal.


Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
How close do you consider the Det-1 Limber to be too the original MEU-SOC?

Pick up the December 2003 issue of SWAT magazine and you'll find an excellent article by Pat Rogers describing the interim Kimber pistol being purchased by the Det. or you can go to the Kimber forum on this board and read Lumpy's thread about it. The 'real' MEU (SOC) takes too long to make so the Det is buying Kimbers to use until the better models arrive. While MEU (SOC) is better than the Kimbers, the Kimbers are still some excellent fighting pistols.


Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Glocks have their barrel finished in Tenefer, Glocks proprietary finish,

Tenifer is a heat treating process that hardens surface of the metal, it doesn't color it, and it isn't proprietery, it's just too expensive to do here in the US with all of our controls on hazardous waste. There are other pistols that use the Tenifer process. The black on Glocks is nothing special and is pretty much the same stuff you'l find on the blackened stainless MEU (SOC) barrels. You can scratch all the black off a Glock slide or barrel and it'll still be just as hard.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:11:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 4:13:19 PM EDT by gardenWeasel]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Unfortunately, that gun doesnt match up with the original MEU-SOC pistol or the new DET-1 Kimber feature for feature.





It has a black stainless barrel dammit!


That makes up for all of the differences.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:19:40 PM EDT
Not to pee on the party, but why is such a pistol nessecary? Is there some major problem with the M9 that I'm missing? Let me see..as accurate as a tuned 1911, any armorer can fix it, parts in the supply chain, ammo in the supply chain, accesories in the supply chain, reliable-most tested handgun in history as far as trials are concerned, more capacity. I can understand the better trigger on the 1911 but stopping power with ball ammo is nearly equal. I would also reckon that the 9mm has killed 10 times the people as the 45 has in modern warfare. Could this be a case of well budgeted units using up funds? Why not tuned Berettas? As a taxpayer this really pisses me off.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:29:35 PM EDT
1. 9mm Ball ammo is notoriously ineffective. Troops have been clamoring for the .45 back.

2. Berettas suck in the desert. Rounds jam in the magazine, even with regular cleaning. You cant predict when your gear is going to get covered in dirt.

3. The 1911 has proven much more reliable in terms of wear than the Beretta. Force Recon has pistols with over 60,000 rounds logged on them.

4. The single action 1911 is much faster reactive pistol than the double action Beretta.

The Force-Recon and MAR-SOC units that are using these are the cutting edge of the Marine Corp. Delta uses customized 1911s too. So it bothers you that the first to go in have the best that our tax dollars can buy?
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 10:31:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2003 10:37:12 AM EDT by AJohnston]

Originally Posted By GreenLocust:
Not to pee on the party, but why is such a pistol nessecary? Is there some major problem with the M9 that I'm missing? Let me see..as accurate as a tuned 1911, any armorer can fix it, parts in the supply chain, ammo in the supply chain, accesories in the supply chain, reliable-most tested handgun in history as far as trials are concerned, more capacity. I can understand the better trigger on the 1911 but stopping power with ball ammo is nearly equal. I would also reckon that the 9mm has killed 10 times the people as the 45 has in modern warfare. Could this be a case of well budgeted units using up funds? Why not tuned Berettas? As a taxpayer this really pisses me off.




No major problem with the M9 other than its clunky ergonomics makeing it much less shootable than the 1911.... or at least that’s what I’ve learns through my ’limited experience’ with both. As I recall, one of the greatest factors leading the men that make up the special units to use the 1911 was because they wanted the best shooting pistol with the greatest hit potential when their life is at stake. Even in a SWAT or SF role a pistol is (for the most part) a defensive weapon by nature and, although it does have some potential in an offensive role, it is intended to be used as a last means of defense..... my rifle went down and I need a weapon now, enter the pistol. Given those circumstances a quick handling pistol that has great hit potential and fires an effective round (for a pistol) would be a pretty valuable item.... the 1911 simply fulfills those needs better than the M9. Shoot both and one will quickly see that a 1911 with its slenderness, single action trigger, and low bore axis is simply easier to shoot. Of course one can adapt and learn to shoot an M9 almost as well.... it would just take longer.

As for the M9 being “as accurate as a tuned 1911” and the 9mm ball being “nearly equal” to the 230gr 45 ACP.... c’mon, all that is either hogwash or inexperienced dribble. I have never seen nor heard of an issue M9 that would group anywhere near a tuned 1911 at 25yrds or beyond. Not that an M9 isn’t adequately accurate for a combat pistol its just not a bulls-eye gun. And just so you know when it comes to wounding with handgun projectiles the only reliable mechanism (given the same penetration depth) is projectile diameter. Seems kinda’ logical that a .45 caliber projectile would have at least a mild advantage over a .35 caliber projectile.



Link Posted: 10/22/2003 10:59:43 AM EDT
With hardball ammo, there is no doubt among serious, experienced users that the .45 is light years ahead of the 9mm shot for shot. Talk to the guys on the ground who do it for real...up close and very personal...and almost to a man they will tell you that the .45 is the better cartridge with FMJ.

I can name you any number of places around the globe where FMJ 9mm is in daily use as a Police round, and again, other than an occassional success here and there, the 9mm FMJ is a miserable failure as an anti personnel round. Not some BS someone printed in a book once upon a time...just cold, hard facts. JHP stuff does even the playing field somewhat, but that is a horse of a different color.

Is the .45 worth the trade-off in ammo capacity in comparable sized guns? It is to me...and it seems to also be the case with these operators...who could probably have almost anything they wanted right now.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 3:32:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2003 3:35:08 PM EDT by skullworks]

Originally Posted By ikor:
With hardball ammo, there is no doubt among serious, experienced users that the .45 is light years ahead of the 9mm shot for shot. Talk to the guys on the ground who do it for real...up close and very personal...and almost to a man they will tell you that the .45 is the better cartridge with FMJ.

I can name you any number of places around the globe where FMJ 9mm is in daily use as a Police round, and again, other than an occassional success here and there, the 9mm FMJ is a miserable failure as an anti personnel round. Not some BS someone printed in a book once upon a time...just cold, hard facts. JHP stuff does even the playing field somewhat, but that is a horse of a different color.

Is the .45 worth the trade-off in ammo capacity in comparable sized guns? It is to me...and it seems to also be the case with these operators...who could probably have almost anything they wanted right now.

I agree.

However, there is one area where the 9mm has some advantage to the .45 - when shooting at someone wearing a flakvest, especially when using something along the lines of the Swedish m/39B 9mm round (that was developed for the Swedish-K SMG and is labeled by good ol' Uncle Sam as an armor piercing round.)

The Swedish army had plenty of m/39B around and when they needed a new sidearm a 9mm was the obvious choice. Guns that were tested (amongst others) were the SIG (that was too pricey in the end,) the Beretta 92F (slide came off due to the pressure,) and the Glock 17. The G17 won (the G19 was also purchased for the airforce) as it could withstand the brute force of the m/39B and the cold weather in Northern Sweden. The SIG passed the tests too, but was too pricey for the limited budget of the Swedish defense.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 6:54:56 AM EDT
As far as M9's not doing well in the desert, I was stationed at 29 Palms for 4 years and while shooting on my regiments pistol team and coaching on the range, I never saw a single problem with a clean pistol. I also carried an M9 in Somalia for five months and never heard of any problems with regard to use in desert conditions. A 1911 tuned for reliability would suffer in the accuracy department I would think. A loose slide and bushing fit to cycle sand isn't conducive to accuracy. As far as I can recall the Evan/Marshall 1 shot stop percentages on ball ammo are relatively close. I'm not taking the stance that a tuned 1911 isn't an effective weapon, I just think it would make more sense to tune the existing M9 and spend the extra money on ammo and range time. If Force or whoever needs a different toy, then why not use the H&K SOCOM which is already in the NSN system with the appropriate support.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 8:47:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GreenLocust:
As far as M9's not doing well in the desert, I was stationed at 29 Palms for 4 years and while shooting on my regiments pistol team and coaching on the range, I never saw a single problem with a clean pistol. I also carried an M9 in Somalia for five months and never heard of any problems with regard to use in desert conditions. A 1911 tuned for reliability would suffer in the accuracy department I would think. A loose slide and bushing fit to cycle sand isn't conducive to accuracy. As far as I can recall the Evan/Marshall 1 shot stop percentages on ball ammo are relatively close. I'm not taking the stance that a tuned 1911 isn't an effective weapon, I just think it would make more sense to tune the existing M9 and spend the extra money on ammo and range time. If Force or whoever needs a different toy, then why not use the H&K SOCOM which is already in the NSN system with the appropriate support.



The H&K SOCOM still has worse ergonomics than the 1911 (maybe even worse than the M9) and, although very modular and adaptable, is clunky as hell. It’s no wonder to me why there have been a few generations of SEAL Teams to have custom 1911s built for them to take into dangerous places. I think you may need to get your facts straight on what exactly makes a 1911 reliable and accurate. Slide to frame fit has very little to do with the latter but if done right a tightly fit 1911 can be as reliable (and maybe even more reliable) than one that is loose. For what it’s worth, a few years back Vickers did what he referred to as a “sand test” with various side arms including a custom 1911, bone stock 1911, G21, USP, and a few others. One may find is surprising that the tightly fitted 1911 faired better than the plane Jane 1911 due to the fact that one was fit tighter than the other. With the possible exception of the G21, all of the aforementioned guns are all good in their own right and I’m sure the men that have use these guns when it counts are glad they get to make the choice of which one to use.

Link Posted: 10/23/2003 10:50:31 AM EDT
Interesting reading: Marine Force Recon Afghanistan after action report.

http://pvtpyle.com/force_recon_in_afghanistan_notes.htm
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 12:55:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
http://pvtpyle.com/force_recon_in_afghanistan_notes.htm



Thanks for the link Dinger.

Interesting article. Points out very well why they are obtaining new pistols. They shoot A LOT, and the fact is the guns are worn out, some with well over 60K round counts. The Surefire problems have been well noted before. Thats why they are switching to the rail mount, that and the QD ability. Good read.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 1:50:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Interesting reading: Marine Force Recon Afghanistan after action report.

pvtpyle.com/force_recon_in_afghanistan_notes.htm

Let's make it hot, shall we?
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