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Posted: 10/14/2003 9:40:13 AM EDT
Have any of you heard the Glocks are more likely to fire unintentionally than other makes?

I was talking to a state patrolman yesterday that actually installed a NY trigger on his personal Glock just to make it less likely. Another police officer knew of two seperate cases in the department of officers shoting themselves in the legs with Glocks.

I have been using a Glock as my concealed carry but I would want to change makes if this is true.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 10:09:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2003 10:13:44 AM EDT by faris]
There is a potential for AD's with the Glock, but this is somewhat overstated.
In other words, it can happen, but it's not something that "just happens".

The "problem" is that the Glock has a short trigger pull, coupled with no manual safety.

Revolvers and many modern double action autos like the Kahr have DA triggers and no manual safety, but their triggers have a much longer trigger pull before the gun will fire.

The Glock has a comparatively short trigger pull, and it's possible to inadvertently pull the trigger by mis-chance.

Examples are cases of Glocks firing when holstered in older thumb break-equipped holsters. The thumb break strap would curl over and would go into the trigger guard when the gun was pushed into the holster. As the gun was pressed down, the strap would activate the trigger.

Other cases involved people carrying Glocks without a holster that covers the trigger guard.
A case in point was an officer carrying his Glock in the hip pocket of a pair of baggy pants. When he slid across the car seat, the Glock trigger caught on a seat belt attachment and fired.

All that's required to be safe with a Glock is to ALWAYS carry it in a holster that's equipped with a covered trigger guard, and one that's specifically designed for a Glock pistol. The generic, "fits most" type holsters may not safely accommodate the Glock.

Above all just remember: If the trigger is pulled, the gun fires.
This is true of all guns, but because of the much shorter length of the trigger pull, the Glock isn't as forgiving as other designs.

The Glock is no "safer" or "un-safer" than any other pistol.
All that's required for safety is to pay attention, and insure the trigger isn't inadvertently pulled.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 10:11:07 AM EDT
Well, there can be no denial that Glocks have been involved in many, many unintentional discharges, mostly among LEO's who were not used to handling guns with this type of trigger.

While the Glock, concepturally, is little different from a revolver or several other autopistols that will fire if you pull the trigger, the standard trigger on a Glock will allow a user to easily bring the pistol to an internal "full cock" position with only light finger pressure. (this is what happens when you "take up the slack" in a Glock trigger) At this point, with the standard connector / spring combo, you need only move the trigger another 1/10 inch with 5-6lb. of pressure and the gun will fire.

Too many sloppy gun handlers used to getting away with putting fingers on triggers of other models have found out that the Glocks will "bite" sooner under the same conditions. The "answer" is to keep the finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot, and even though this answer is a little simplistic in the world of "up close, down and dirty" use of handguns under realistic conditions, it can...and should...be reinforced with training and repetition of correct habit patterns until the user will do it in his/her sleep without consciously needing to think about it.

With proper training AND continued correct reinforcement of good habits, the Glock is no more "dangerous" than any other loaded handgun.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 10:42:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2003 10:43:32 AM EDT by Cross_Steel]
When my brother was in Law School he had a classmate (Birmingham Police Officer) show up on crutches one night. They kept on asking him what happened and he wouldn't tell. Finally he said he shot(nicked) himself in the foot while holstering his weapon after a scuffle/arrest. I think the guy went back to carrying an S&W and shelved the Glock.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 11:19:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 7:30:41 AM EDT by HardShell]
I haven't read any studies or stats to back this up, but IMO one major contributor to Glocks having more NDs (if that is indeed the case) might be the fact that YOU HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER BEFORE DISASSEMBLING IT!

I have only had one ND in my 37 years. Yes, it was a Glock. Yes, I was "clearing" it to disassemble. And YES, it was MY FAULT - I let my attention slip (something you never want to do while handling firearms) and reinserted a loaded magazine before racking the slide to "clear" the chamber (I had removed the magazine to set aside and to this day have no idea why I put it back in!). When I pulled the trigger - BANG! - man, that's a sick feeling! No harm done & an important lesson (or three) learned - but I still feel this aspect of the Glock's design may contribute to NDs. I can't think of any other weapon that I own which must be dry-fired for disassembly.


edited to add emphasis above:
Please note that I do not blame my lone ND on the Glock and I agree 100% with the comments below regarding ADs and "user error." I do wish that there was a way to manually decock a Glock (IMO that would be an improvement) and I still contend that IMO the absence of such a mechanism MIGHT lead to more NDs.


edited again, to change the "ADs" to "NDs" since that seems to be the preferred term (and is probably more accurate)
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 3:39:49 PM EDT
At one time, not too long ago, it was common practice to not carry a striker fired pistol with a round in the chamber.
I think it was meant more for the cheaper guns that could (and have) gone off when dropped.
Glocks may just be too "ready to go" for some, with 5 pounds between silence and loudness.
5 pounds or less is ok for most with a manual safety or a long pull, but Glocks do point and click quite easily.

Link Posted: 10/14/2003 7:44:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:
I haven't read any studies or stats to back this up, but IMO one major contributor to Glocks having more ADs (if that is indeed the case) might be the fact that YOU HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER BEFORE DISASSEMBLING IT!



The same is true of the Steyr M series and the Springfield XD HS-2000 series of pistols.

This is not a Glock only thing.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 7:50:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anothergene:
At one time, not too long ago, it was common practice to not carry a striker fired pistol with a round in the chamber.
I think it was meant more for the cheaper guns that could (and have) gone off when dropped.



That is true. Only a extremly stupid bastard would carry a single action striker fired POS such as a Jennings, Bryco or Davis with a round in the chamber.

The Glock is not a cheap single action.

It is basically a DAO with several internal safetys that make it almost impossible for it to fire if dropped.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:09:43 PM EDT
Answer to the question in the thread:

No. Glocks (because of design features or flaws) do NOT have more ADs/NDs than other pistols. They have more ADs/NDs than other pistols because of two reasons:

1) There are TONS of Glocks out there
2) People don't pay attention, and screw up.

I own a Glock (model 19) and have handled and shot many other Glocks (friends, and even range guns). I have never had an AD/ND with it. Not saying that I never will, but the odds with the Glock are the same with any other pistol.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:48:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By anothergene:
At one time, not too long ago, it was common practice to not carry a striker fired pistol with a round in the chamber.
I think it was meant more for the cheaper guns that could (and have) gone off when dropped.
Glocks may just be too "ready to go" for some, with 5 pounds between silence and loudness.
5 pounds or less is ok for most with a manual safety or a long pull, but Glocks do point and click quite easily.




Or, in my case, 3.5 pounds...
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:52:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cornbread2:

Originally Posted By HardShell:
I haven't read any studies or stats to back this up, but IMO one major contributor to Glocks having more ADs (if that is indeed the case) might be the fact that YOU HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER BEFORE DISASSEMBLING IT!



The same is true of the Steyr M series and the Springfield XD HS-2000 series of pistols.

This is not a Glock only thing.



I don't own either of those, but that's good to know - I have looked at & considered buying each on several occasions. Not that I wouldn't still buy them, I'm just saying it's good to know. Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:58:14 AM EDT
I am certainly no Glock fan, so you can take what I am about to tell you to the bank:

1. 99% of AD's happen because people get stupid when handling firearms.
2. The other 1% of AD's happen because of mechanical failure.

I refer you to this thread on another board:

http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=003200

I basically make the arguement that 15 lbs, 5lbs, or 5 ounces of trigger weight makes no difference. Heavy triggers will NOT stop ADs. Only PROPER TRAINING and PROPER ADHERANCE TO THAT TRAINING will prevent AD's.

KEEP THAT FINGER OUT OF THE TRIGGER!! The vast majority of incidents with LEOS and Glocks are because of failing to follow that rule.


ONLY LET THE MUZZLE OF YOUR WEAPON COVER WHAT YOU ARE PREPARED TO KILL! An Albemarle County SWAT officer shot himself in the leg last week with a .40 caliber Glock by failing to observe that rule while trying to unload his pistol before going into the range. Put a round right into his leg. He FAILED to aim his muzzle at a safe place while manipulating it, which is another leading cause of problems. There is a reason why at professional training they make you dress up to a shooting line, face downrange and manipulate/clear weapons while they are safely pointed downrange. This way nobody gets shot.

Any other time that pistol should be in the holster and left alone. Only load/clear a weapon when facing a good backstop, and keep the weapon pointed at that backstop.

When you clear a weapon, you should drop the mag first, then operate the slide several times and inspect the chamber while the slide is locked back to ensure that no rounds remain in the weapon. And your trigger finger should NOT be on the trigger of the weapon!! If you are not about to pull the trigger in the next 1/2 a second, your finger has no buisness on that trigger!!

Only a tiny fraction of AD's are actually the result of mechanical failure. The rest are due to a failure to use the only real safety you will ever have in life: THE ONE BETWEEN YOUR EARS!!

Use that one and ALWAYS have your thinking cap on around firearms, and you will stay safe.

As I said before, I really dislike Glocks. I think they are horribly designed pistols with awful ergnomics, accuracy, triggers and sights. But they are not unsafe if you follow the rules and use the right ammo.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 4:27:40 AM EDT
Well, I wanted to chime in a little, although I do not own a Glock. They're great pistols, but I still don't really like them much. Just my personal taste.

I think what you'll find is the largest cause of 'negligent discharges' is just that - Negligence. Glocks may be a bit more easy to unintentionally fire, due to no manual safety and a short trigger (see the post above mentioning holsters accidentally tripping triggers) I've had my 1911 hang up in a holster... it would have fired if it didn't have a manual safety.

The biggest thing to stress is following the rules of gun handling RELIGIOUSLY. No slacking EVER. When you handle your weapon, FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER AND OUTSIDE THE TRIGGER GUARD. When you holster, always monitor where the gun is, where your finger is, and be sure nothing will catch while sliding it in. When cleaning, remove the magazine and PUT IT ASIDE! (why the hell would you put a mag back in before OR after clearing the weapon if you're gonna clean it anyway??). DOUBLE and TRIPLE CHECK the weapon before disassembly. Make DAMN sure there are no rounds in the chamber or in the magwell.

I have yet to have a negligent discharge, and pray I will never have a momentary lapse of attention that could cause one.

Keep your wits about you, guys. Stay safe.

Link Posted: 10/16/2003 7:22:37 AM EDT
Most occurances happen when people pull the trigger intentionally.

They forget the gun is loaded
They forget to clear the chamber

Following firearm safety rules will prevent these accidents.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 4:53:25 PM EDT
possible reason GLOCKS have more ADs is the fact that more GLOCKS are handled daily than other pistols
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 5:45:23 PM EDT
I have been talking to more LEO's and the design of the Glock about having to pull the trigger to take apart is a big reason for ND's.

Link Posted: 10/16/2003 6:18:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 6:21:42 PM EDT by cornbread2]
They have NDs because they have no idea how handguns work and they have not had proper training.

The Glock, Steyr, and Springfield XD require that you dry fire the pistol before you take it apart. So do most striker fired junk guns such as Jennings, Bryco and such.

Why are they not having NDs with these?

Those of us that know how a semi auto works would not dry fire a gun without unloading it and checking the chamber useally more than once.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 7:18:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:
I have been talking to more LEO's and the design of the Glock about having to pull the trigger to take apart is a big reason for ND's.



Not to be disrespectful, but those LEO's you're talking to are full of shit, and passing the buck. If they would check the chamber before pulling the trigger (safe handling practice) there would be no problem. No one in their right mind would blame the design of the pistol (as long as it's mechanically sound and safe) for stupid actions on their part.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 7:25:58 PM EDT
there is a saying..

"its the indian, not the arrow"

i saw it in an earlier post.. i will say it again.

Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

glocks are great guns.. dont let anyone tell you different.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 7:42:51 PM EDT
I agree with freeride21a 100%!

It's simple. It's a training issue.

Keep your finger off the trigger and it wont go bang.

There are no accidents.
Only "Negligent Discharges"

I love my Glock 21.

C.g.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 11:38:44 AM EDT
I have had a glock go two and three round burst, but only becuase it had been shot over 5000rds with a 3.5lb connector. Scarred the crap out of me when it happened to. I agree with everyone else here. If you don't want it to go bang, unload it and keep your finger off the trigger. If you are cleaning a gun and don't unload it first, you deserve whatever you get. Sounds cold, but it has kept me from any extra ventilation.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 12:06:31 PM EDT

1. 99% of AD's happen because people get stupid when handling firearms.
2. The other 1% of AD's happen because of mechanical failure.



You forgot one common cause of AD's in pistols like Glocks and Kel-Tec's. That's misdesigned or misused holsters. In my CCW class, I saw a Kel-Tec P-11 AD when a guy got the holster strap stuck in the trigger guard while putting the pistol in the holster. It went-off and fortunately the round harmlessly hit the floor. A few years ago I saw an officer in a restaurant have an AD with his Glock when he knocked it partially out of his holster while bending over to help someone that had passed-out. When he pushed the pistol back into the holster, it fired. The holster was safe as long as he was standing up, but when he bent over, it squeezed the top edge of the plastic over into the trigger guard far enough to hit the trigger safety. After it happened, he unloaded the pistol and was able to make it happen again. Neither of those were mechanical failures of the pistol or due to stupid owners. Those are also only two AD's I've seen. Neither fit into the two categories you listed. You make it sound as if you have an AD there's a 99% chance you're an idiot. From what I've seen, that isn't true at all.z
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 12:21:43 PM EDT
Pulling a Berreta 92 out of a tight hoster with the safety off can make it fire. The trigger bar is on the outside of the frame and moves forward to fire.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:15:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Pulling a Berreta 92 out of a tight hoster with the safety off can make it fire. The trigger bar is on the outside of the frame and moves forward to fire.



That is 100% complete bullshit.

While it is correct that the trigger bar is on the outside and it does move forward to fire it is damn near impossible that ANY holster can put enough pressure to grip the bar hard enough to move it.

If you have a Beretta or know someone that has one just try to move the trigger bar any way you can and see if you can cock the hammer just by trying to move the trigger bar.

You can't do it.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:46:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Pulling a Berreta 92 out of a tight hoster with the safety off can make it fire. The trigger bar is on the outside of the frame and moves forward to fire.



Yes the trigger bar is outside the pistol.

But have you ever tried to make the hammer move this way on a Beretta? I have owned a Beretta 92 for years (I own 2 now) and have never once been able to successfully accomplish this feat. The only way I can see to do it is with pliars and a heck of a lot of elbow grease, which would probably just break the trigger bar anyway.

Not wanting to mess up important parts on weapons I carry for defense, I never pushed the issue.

Thus I defy anyone to find a holster that will actually cause this scenario to happen. The 92 may have some shortcomings (too heavy, grip too wide for small hands, etc...) but this little fable sure as heck aint one.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:58:28 PM EDT
I think the Kel-Tech incident falls under category 1. (There are varying degrees of dumb, from real big dumb to just-not-paying-close-enough-attention dumb. I think that fits in the latter part...)

The Glock holster story is certainly curious. Was this an IWB style of holster, or a more conventional duty holster? What brand of holster? The trigger-covering area would have had to deflect a great deal to overcome the safety lever inside the trigger of the Glock that usually prevents just this sort of thing from occouring.

In order to make a Glock's trigger go to the rear, this lever must be disengaged. I owned 2 Glocks and carried them extensively, and was never once able to make the trigger pull without first engaging the lever in the trigger. Tugging on the side of the trigger was useless, as this was also blocked by the lever inside the trigger.

Given the width of the trigger guard and the safety lever, the event you describe is certainly a very odd and rare occourance indeed, worthy of its own category.

But I will stand by my statement: 99% of AD's are the result of what some in the computer industry refer to as US. User Stupidity. This can be a massively stupid act, or something simple that is the result of not paying close enough attention.

Either way, it only takes a small slip to have an accident with a loaded gun.
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