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Posted: 9/14/2003 12:57:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 3:45:14 PM EDT by YANKEEFAN]
If you had the 600-800 dollars for a brand new one, which one would you choose and why? I know 600 is on the low side but I am not here to debate the prices. I really like the USP's but there are some good 220's out there right now. The only stipulations are that it has to be purchased through a dealer and not a private party and 1911's aren't allowed. Just looking for some input. Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 7:15:39 PM EDT
Just my 2 cents, but I have carried all three as a duty weapon, and as a former senior firearms instructor.

First choice (very personal) would be a 1911, but hard to get passed a department, even harder to get a modified one through.

I carried a Sig P220 for the first two years my former department authorized semi autos. I never had a failure of any kind with mine (8,000+ rounds through it). Two negatives though, finish wears off rather quickly, and I have seen the trigger return spring break on more then one. Both are easy fixes. A hard chrome, NP3, or gun kote will sole the finish problem, and a yearly spring change out (maintenance) will solve the other.

The USP is the one I have the least experience with, but I never saw one go down, due to weapon failure (shooter error yes!). The finish is excellent. Magazine acquirement can be a pain depending on your political clime and or department. Of the three, it would be the least likely for one weapon on duty and off (at least for me). I had mine permanently put in the coked and lock mode, due to unintentional decoking (thumbs on safety).

I would probably give the nod to the USP my a very narrow margin, but suggest you fire both, and try a few presentations to see which one you prefer.
Regards,
Flyingrhino
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 7:18:28 PM EDT
The SIG P220 works better for me simply because the single stack magazine grip and the magazines themselves are easier for me to conceal.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 7:31:46 PM EDT
Both are extremely reliable. Both are more accurate than humanly possible. Get the one that feels the absolute best in your hand. Seriously. They both really are great handguns.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 7:42:23 PM EDT
The double action pull of the HK is really bad. Makes having a safety redundant. Having a safety that will also decock if pushed farther is a bad idea as well. I went through a week at Gunsite with a guy shooting a USP beside me. The instructors warned him that he had made a poor selection and boy were they right. He said he would never shoot the USP again. Go with Sig or Glock as a duty weapon.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 8:12:49 PM EDT
The pbvipos answer G-21, and his little brother G-30, with nite-sites for both.

Ok, both USP and P220 have similar trigger feel IMHO. Operating systems, USP is changable P220 is a decock. Both are solid, unless you are left handed.

Issues with the USP

Magazines can shed their followers when dropped emepty from the gun. There have been 3 magazine revisions that I know about.

Grip can be wide, due to the mag width.

Non-conventional rifling, like Glocks, but less suspectible to fouling than a Glock.

P-220 issues

Not a lot of mag capacity.

Finish can be hit or miss.

Weighs more than USP, due to all metal construction.

Gun can be disabled if the right (IIRC) handgrip is broken/missing

Both:

Have waht feels like a relatively high bore axis, meaning more muzzle flip.

You really can't go wrong with either. The question comes down to which do you like more.

I think I would pick the USP, good magazine capacity, configurable operating system, non-conventional rifling, and lighter.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 9:36:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
The double action pull of the HK is really bad. Makes having a safety redundant. Having a safety that will also decock if pushed farther is a bad idea as well. I went through a week at Gunsite with a guy shooting a USP beside me. The instructors warned him that he had made a poor selection and boy were they right. He said he would never shoot the USP again. Go with Sig or Glock as a duty weapon.


I don't really understand what the issue here is. If you accidently decock a USP you just pull the trigger like you were going to anyway. I've tried it with mine and don't really see the issue. What am I missing?
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 10:07:30 PM EDT
I owned & shot both. Either of my USPs shot rings around my P-220. This is not to say the P-220 is a POS but the USP is a much more accurate handgun, based on my experience.

I would also suggest you get the USP Compact instead of the full size.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 10:23:28 PM EDT
Wow Bob, thats the first Ive ever heard anyone have that experience. Usually the SIG is one of the more accurate out of the box .45s. The USPs I have shot have been AS accurate, but not consistantly so, showing preferences for certain loads.

My P220 has been universally accurate.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 10:32:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2003 10:33:18 PM EDT by NoCompromise]
I also have better experiences with the USP. Have had the P226 and P220. both replaced by usp9 and USP tactical. I can shoot faster with the USP's, and the double action trigger on mine is not bad at all. The safety and accidentally decocking is a non issue to me. The sigs don't have a safety and I didn't think they needed one, So I don't use the safety on the USP either. I have never been to Gunsite, but by what innocent bystander said, they sound like real ignorant assholes. well at least thats the immpression I get from his post.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 2:41:59 AM EDT
I have had both...still do, in fact.

The 220 fits my hand slightly better, is lighter and smaller and, like Lumpy, I have NEVER seen a 220 that was not very, very accurate...probably seen and worked with at least 50-60 over the years with various shooters. In semi-skilled hands, the light weight and high bore line can cause some ejection issues until the shooter gets the idea of how to "back up" the gun properly. Newer ones have very nice triggers, sights are good to go, finish on the blued slides sucks as with all blued Sigs. Grip screws will loosen under recoil, and mag pads are a nice addition for reloading quickly without pinching the heel of your hand. Stay away from the 8rd. mags as the springs fatigue pretty quickly as experienced by Texas DPS when they used them. Very nice gun, but...at least in my experience...not as reliable as the H&K.

H&K full size...very accurate with every duty type 230gr. JHP I have tried in it...I don't shoot anything else in a .45 acp except ball...certainly more than accurate enough for any realistic need. Keep the thumb off of the safety lever when you shoot and the "problem" of decocking under recoil is resolved...it's a non-issue. I really like the new LE module and may have it installed in my gun later this year...nice trigger! Tougher than the Sigs, holds more ammo, and has less felt recoil. Also has a high bore line, so some muzzle "flip" is there. The H&K is, in my experience...well over 100 guns and shooters...much more reliable than the Sigs or an unmodified 1911 when using anything other than hardball...most reliable .45 I have ever seen...and I have seen a bunch of 'em. Finish is much better in blue/black... no rust here in the humid SE.

For me, the compact H&K is not in the running. Too big, too bulky, and no real advantage over the 220. I personally don't think they are as reliable as their big brothers, but I will say that I have dealt with only 5 or 6 of them. They will NOT take the full size mags of the standard gun. Cole and some others seem to really like their compacts, so take this for what it is...my opinion only.

If I am looking at these two pistols, for me, the H&K wins, hands down. JMO
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 11:20:38 AM EDT
I had a 220 and put in a BarSto barrel (drop in) and shot a 8 shot 5/8in group at 25yds with it. 220 with a BarSto barrel is my choice.

You can't get a match barrel for HK except through Jarvis and I have bad experience with Jarvis and will never buy from them again.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 6:48:21 PM EDT

Maybe I missed it but, what are you going to do with the gun? Home defense, carry weapon, range plinking?

Sig makes a fine gun but I prefer HK hands down.

10 round capacity- or more if you're special(I've never broken a floorplate off either)

Cocked and locked option.

If you're worried about accidental decocking, get an ambi-safety.( Not that I ever accidentally decocked before I had one)

Hmmm, out of box accuracy. Let's get serious, they're both very accurate right out of the box, but HK's can take some getting used to. Once you get the hang of them (50-100 rounds max) they are outstanding.

IMHO recoil on USP 45 is softer than most 45's.

Ambidextrous mag release comes standard.

In the event of a light primer strike or similar malfunction, you can try a second pull D/A. This isn't an option on Glocks.(I know we're talking Sig vs. HK but someone else brought up Glocks.)

I've grown quite accustomed to the HK D/A pull and prefer it over Sig.

Lastly, does sound like a little biased attitude at Gunsite. I'll give them a call and straighten them out for you.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 9:37:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Green0:
You can't get a match barrel for HK except through Jarvis and I have bad experience with Jarvis and will never buy from them again.




Pssssssst, there's a resons for that. H&K doesn't NEED a NM aftermarket barrel! That's like putting an aftermarket engine in a Porsche 911 Turbo. It ain't natural nor necessary!

My .o2
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 10:01:08 PM EDT
SIG P220. 7 in the mag, 1 in the chamber!

Never misses a beat!
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 10:40:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
SIG P220. 7 in the mag, 1 in the chamber!

Never misses a beat!



HK USP .45. 10 in the mag, 1 in the chamber!

Never misses a beat!
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:59:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jtw2:

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
SIG P220. 7 in the mag, 1 in the chamber!

Never misses a beat!



HK USP .45. 10 in the mag, 1 in the chamber!

Never misses a beat!



Cit doesnt plan on missing that much
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:59:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By jtw2:

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
SIG P220. 7 in the mag, 1 in the chamber!

Never misses a beat!



HK USP .45. 10 in the mag, 1 in the chamber!

Never misses a beat!



Cit doesnt plan on missing that much



But what if he's attacked by 11 zombies?
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:35:45 PM EDT
11 zombies?

Get one of these...



Link Posted: 9/16/2003 3:25:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 3:26:50 PM EDT by Para504]
I was really taken with HK, but for me anyway, I was looking for CCW option and the 220 seemed to be way to go. I've been very happy with the 220 performance and ergo's. The HK is a large wpn, though I like everything else about it. Now I just have to save my pennies for the USP tactical...

Link Posted: 9/16/2003 3:44:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARse15:

Maybe I missed it but, what are you going to do with the gun? Home defense, carry weapon, range plinking?




I will be using it as my carry gun at work.

Let me throw another couple wrinkles into this. The first is that I already own a USP 40 and love it. Is there something to be said for keeping the "mechanics" the same? The second is that right now the 220 is going for $549 at the Northwest Armory in Portland. Now what do you all think?
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 4:39:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By YANKEEFAN:

Originally Posted By ARse15:

Maybe I missed it but, what are you going to do with the gun? Home defense, carry weapon, range plinking?




I will be using it as my carry gun at work.

Let me throw another couple wrinkles into this. The first is that I already own a USP 40 and love it. Is there something to be said for keeping the "mechanics" the same? The second is that right now the 220 is going for $549 at the Northwest Armory in Portland. Now what do you all think?



Yes, there is.

After being a long time Sig person, I switched to H&K's and 1911's. I tried to add a P220 back in the mix, since I loved them so. AFter my first trip to the range, and trying to do fast mag changes under a little pressure, I kept hitting the decock lever on the P220, instead of the slide release. I had become so used to the slide release location on my 1911's and USP's, that muscle memory was killing me. I sold the P220.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 5:22:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Yes, there is.

After being a long time Sig person, I switched to H&K's and 1911's. I tried to add a P220 back in the mix, since I loved them so. AFter my first trip to the range, and trying to do fast mag changes under a little pressure, I kept hitting the decock lever on the P220, instead of the slide release. I had become so used to the slide release location on my 1911's and USP's, that muscle memory was killing me. I sold the P220.



I agree. KISS.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:21:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARse15:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Yes, there is.

After being a long time Sig person, I switched to H&K's and 1911's. I tried to add a P220 back in the mix, since I loved them so. AFter my first trip to the range, and trying to do fast mag changes under a little pressure, I kept hitting the decock lever on the P220, instead of the slide release. I had become so used to the slide release location on my 1911's and USP's, that muscle memory was killing me. I sold the P220.



I agree. KISS.



I agree too, although, I don't think I'd kiss him......never can tell where he's been and I've heard stories.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 4:24:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By ARse15:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Yes, there is.

After being a long time Sig person, I switched to H&K's and 1911's. I tried to add a P220 back in the mix, since I loved them so. AFter my first trip to the range, and trying to do fast mag changes under a little pressure, I kept hitting the decock lever on the P220, instead of the slide release. I had become so used to the slide release location on my 1911's and USP's, that muscle memory was killing me. I sold the P220.



I agree. KISS.



I agree too, although, I don't think I'd kiss him......never can tell where he's been and I've heard stories.



I can neither confirm nor deny.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 3:52:53 PM EDT
I can confirm or deny...but what's the fun in that?
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 12:34:27 PM EDT
Thanks for the help and input everyone. I think I have decided to stick with the USP. Now the only porblem is to figure out whether or not I want the compact or full-size. Bring on the input as I haven't even found a dealer to buy from yet.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 5:58:28 PM EDT
I had both. I ended up selling the Compact. It wasn't much smaller than the full size, which I shoot somewhat better with. I thought the full size would be difficult to carry concealed, but it's about the same as the Compact.

Regarding the horrid USP trigger, in my personal experience, the triggers on both guns became much smoother with use.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 2:44:31 AM EDT
I already chose and I chose USP 45F.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:47:56 AM EDT
In fairness I beleive everybody missed the boat on this one. You can't compare apples and oranges. If the sig had the same mag capacity as th HK. There is no way the HK would beat a sig hands down. Accuracy wise I have shot both. I too like the sig but it has less rnd in the mag but then again you would not need more than one to hit your target do you?
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:11:29 PM EDT
I don't get why you say everyone missed the boat. I have owned both, and I chose my USP's because I would shoot better and faster with them. believe it or not I also prefferred the trigger on the USP. I didn't go with it for the capacity either, the 226 and usp9 have the same capacity. but on that note, to quote a line on one of my favorite movies concerning a six shooter...
" there is 9 bodies genius, what the f..k were you gonna do, laugh the other 3 guys to death? funnyman..."
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:52:24 PM EDT
I go with the P220 in this case. Nothing against the USP45 in particular, but I'm a Sig shooter in 9mm as well as .357/.40 so I'd be more comfortable with it. I probably would own a P220, but slim, 7 round mag in .45...1911 all the way.
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