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Posted: 9/3/2003 6:13:05 PM EDT
When buying a gun does magazine capacity matter to you? Would you choose on handgund that held 13rds over one that held 8 rds.
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 6:20:16 PM EDT
No, I buy handguns that have reliability in their history, as well as accuracy, and durability.

My first two handguns were USP's in 40S&W.

I now have two Kimber 1911's one Ultra Carry, one Compact CDP as well as a USP40c.

I'd rather have a higher potency accurate round/weapon than one that simply had 13 rounds in the mag.

Link Posted: 9/3/2003 6:29:50 PM EDT
I have a Hk uspf too and spent way too much for 13rd magazines. Also plenty of glocks and hi-cap mags . But nothing can touch the accuracy of my kimber tactical and springfield operator. I think too much attention is paid on capacity. More+better, almost everybody gets bit by this bug.
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 7:09:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2003 7:12:06 PM EDT by Yar1182]
If you shoot competively such as USPSA/IPSC, steel challenge, etc mag capacity is very important. I need a mag with at least 16 rounds with a extension. That way I can engage 2 standard arrays of 4 targets (2 shots each) before a reload. I'm running a Glock 35 with +5 extensions. that's 20 rounds and it feeds very reliably. The open division guys can get up to 32.
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 7:13:33 PM EDT
No, of course not. It's one factor but a very minor one. I would never buy a gun solely based on magazine capacity. For those that accept different capacity magazines I would never buy a higher capacity magazine unless it was less expensive then buying several smaller capacity magazines.

I recently had a chance to buy some higher capacity BDM mags, but they were more then twice the price of the 10 round ones but held less than 20 rounds. So why would someone spend the same dollars for less capacity?
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 7:17:59 PM EDT
I feel safer with my USP compact with 8+1 rounds than with with my P89 with 15. For that matter, I feel safer with my Security-Six than with the P89.

Then again, I've never been in a combat situation and never have had any formal training in combat hand-gunning, so I may be foolish in thinking this way.
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 7:25:40 PM EDT
There must be a reason why special ops and swat teams carry 8rds of .45 instead of 17 of 9mm?
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 7:29:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
If you shoot competively such as USPSA/IPSC, steel challenge, etc mag capacity is very important. I need a mag with at least 16 rounds with a extension. That way I can engage 2 standard arrays of 4 targets (2 shots each) before a reload. I'm running a Glock 35 with +5 extensions. that's 20 rounds and it feeds very reliably. The open division guys can get up to 32.



Why not shoot the course with a 32rd MP5 pistol? Seriously, at some point the "competition rules" are such bullshit. I mean you would be stupid NOT to go for as many rounds as you can, but I'd love to see a daily carry skeltonized drop leg holster, and 20rd mags sticking out of a carry gun.

I'll stick to the USP40c in the winter months w/ 10rds and a backup mag, and the Ultra Carry/CDP in the summer with 7rds and two backup mags.

If I need to use a gun I hope to not have to reload 10 times before the perp is down.
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 8:44:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2003 9:02:18 PM EDT by xwing]
Is magazine capacity important?...
Does a bear sh-t in the woods!
Heck yes capacity is important. I want as many rounds as possible in my gun.
A group of badguys attacks you, you have 8+1 in the gun...there are 13 of them...you get 9...the other 4 kill you...get the point. As far as higher potentcy instead of 13 round...my Para .45 ACP hold 14+1 rounds and my Glock 21 holds 13+1 of very potent , highly accurate .45ACP ammo.
Do I own single stack guns?..yes.(Kimber TLE)
Would I choose it over a hi cap with the same accuracy?... NO... Why would I do that...
It is not ...Logical...
As far as Swat and Special Ops go. Remember that their sidearm is a secondary weapon, not their primary. Most of the time the primary weapon IS hi Cap. M4/AR/MP%... They want a large caliber weapon with a high ONE SHOT stop record such as the .45ACP..Usually a 1911 such as the TLE.
Most LEO's(including me, I was a deputy for 4 years) prefer a duty weapon with as high a capacity as possible because that IS their primary weapon. As soon as our Dept gave us the choice we ALL went to Hi Capacity guns, Glock 21's... we traded our single stack Sig P220's so fast it would make your head spin....
Also... I shoot USPSA LIMITED with my G-21...And I carry it CCW...And no leg holster needed
Magazine capacity doesnt seem all that important to you ...till you have to draw your weapon...then you think about it alot...and in a running gun fight, having to stop to reload could get you ...shot...
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 5:41:09 AM EDT
mine are all standard capacity (high capacity) because I am a lousy shot.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 5:59:49 AM EDT
A group of 13 bad guys attacks you...9 get shot...the other 4 are not going to be sticking around to get shot as well.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 6:13:29 AM EDT
Having recently gone from USP40f (13+1) to a Springfield 1911 (8+1), I opted for the accuracy end of the debate. It has been tough, I loved the HKs.

A person should carry a weapon that fits the hand, functions reliably, and shoots accurately. Mag capacity is secondary IMO. That's what extra mags are for.

Link Posted: 9/4/2003 6:17:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
Is magazine capacity important?...
Does a bear sh-t in the woods!
Heck yes capacity is important. I want as many rounds as possible in my gun.
A group of badguys attacks you, you have 8+1 in the gun...there are 13 of them...you get 9...the other 4 kill you...get the point. As far as higher potentcy instead of 13 round...my Para .45 ACP hold 14+1 rounds and my Glock 21 holds 13+1 of very potent , highly accurate .45ACP ammo.
Do I own single stack guns?..yes.(Kimber TLE)
Would I choose it over a hi cap with the same accuracy?... NO... Why would I do that...
It is not ...Logical...
As far as Swat and Special Ops go. Remember that their sidearm is a secondary weapon, not their primary. Most of the time the primary weapon IS hi Cap. M4/AR/MP%... They want a large caliber weapon with a high ONE SHOT stop record such as the .45ACP..Usually a 1911 such as the TLE.
Most LEO's(including me, I was a deputy for 4 years) prefer a duty weapon with as high a capacity as possible because that IS their primary weapon. As soon as our Dept gave us the choice we ALL went to Hi Capacity guns, Glock 21's... we traded our single stack Sig P220's so fast it would make your head spin....
Also... I shoot USPSA LIMITED with my G-21...And I carry it CCW...And no leg holster needed
Magazine capacity doesnt seem all that important to you ...till you have to draw your weapon...then you think about it alot...and in a running gun fight, having to stop to reload could get you ...shot...



Gee, sorry I didn't realize I lived in Compton, CA or Tombstone, AZ.

I also didn't realize I would be busting up drug deals and "hood activities" with just me and my sidearm. As far as 13 gunmen vs 1. Don't worry about mag capacity -- you'll die.

Matix and Piatt even had the drop on the FBI, with more capacity, and they still ended up dead in a running gun battle.

Not sure what kind of dreamyland scenarios you fight, but I will be addressing immediate threats that present; not some gangland scenario where I am suddenly Wyatt Earp or Doc Holliday.

13 vs. 1.........
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 6:41:25 AM EDT
Yes and no.
I purchased most of my magazines in '93 & '94, even if I had no gun to go with them.
I guess my answer would be...I hate to have 10 round mags for a gun that is supposed to have more.
I usually ask a seller to knock off some of the asking price of the gun and keep the 10 rounders to sell later.
That said, I'm happy with 7 rounds of .45, 6 rounds of .357, 10 rounds of .22 as the fairly accepted standard.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 8:24:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Why not shoot the course with a 32rd MP5 pistol? Seriously, at some point the "competition rules" are such bullshit. I mean you would be stupid NOT to go for as many rounds as you can, but I'd love to see a daily carry skeltonized drop leg holster, and 20rd mags sticking out of a carry gun.

I'll stick to the USP40c in the winter months w/ 10rds and a backup mag, and the Ultra Carry/CDP in the summer with 7rds and two backup mags.

If I need to use a gun I hope to not have to reload 10 times before the perp is down.



Actually there were some swat guys at a steel match last year. They shot the steel match with MP5's. One of the the local guys who dominates the steel match named hawk challenged them to man on man shooting plateracks. Initally they agreed but after watching hawk warm up, they were quoted saying "The answer is not no it's F**K NO!" We all had a good laugh, they were nice guys.

My 20 round mags don't really stick out of the gun all that much. You would not be able to conceal carry it, but for open carry it would be a option. Generally I think people would agree for duty to use the stock 15+1 round capacity for a number of reasons.

We all hope in a confrontation we only need one shot per adversary. When your under stress and they fight back things tend to be different. I consider myself a pretty good shot, but would take high capacity every time.

Link Posted: 9/4/2003 12:13:45 PM EDT
Given that the NYPD had to shoot 41 rounds to kill one unarmed man, I don't think a pistol with 8 round is going to cut it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 12:36:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Gee, sorry I didn't realize I lived in Compton, CA or Tombstone, AZ.

I also didn't realize I would be busting up drug deals and "hood activities" with just me and my sidearm. As far as 13 gunmen vs 1. Don't worry about mag capacity -- you'll die.

Matix and Piatt even had the drop on the FBI, with more capacity, and they still ended up dead in a running gun battle.

Not sure what kind of dreamyland scenarios you fight, but I will be addressing immediate threats that present; not some gangland scenario where I am suddenly Wyatt Earp or Doc Holliday.

13 vs. 1.........hr

i was thinking the same thing. if it's 8 vs. 1 and atleast two of them are armed your still done. granted the original poster said he was ex-LEO so his school of thought probably doesn't give him the option to high tail it outta dodge. as a private citizen you better believe i'll loose a few rounds and catch the nike express outta there. no hi-cap necessary. i think of it like a fist fight. if i can't win in the first minute i'm probably not going to win at all.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 12:38:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
Is magazine capacity important?...
Does a bear sh-t in the woods!
Heck yes capacity is important. I want as many rounds as possible in my gun.
A group of badguys attacks you, you have 8+1 in the gun...there are 13 of them...you get 9...the other 4 kill you...get the point. As far as higher potentcy instead of 13 round...my Para .45 ACP hold 14+1 rounds and my Glock 21 holds 13+1 of very potent , highly accurate .45ACP ammo.
Do I own single stack guns?..yes.(Kimber TLE)
Would I choose it over a hi cap with the same accuracy?... NO... Why would I do that...
It is not ...Logical...
As far as Swat and Special Ops go. Remember that their sidearm is a secondary weapon, not their primary. Most of the time the primary weapon IS hi Cap. M4/AR/MP%... They want a large caliber weapon with a high ONE SHOT stop record such as the .45ACP..Usually a 1911 such as the TLE.
Most LEO's(including me, I was a deputy for 4 years) prefer a duty weapon with as high a capacity as possible because that IS their primary weapon. As soon as our Dept gave us the choice we ALL went to Hi Capacity guns, Glock 21's... we traded our single stack Sig P220's so fast it would make your head spin....
Also... I shoot USPSA LIMITED with my G-21...And I carry it CCW...And no leg holster needed
Magazine capacity doesnt seem all that important to you ...till you have to draw your weapon...then you think about it alot...and in a running gun fight, having to stop to reload could get you ...shot...



If you drop 9 guys...the other 4 are running! Who in there right mind would stick around after 1 guy downing 9 of your buddies? Oh, that's right, you're talking about jihad terrorists.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 6:47:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2003 6:56:20 PM EDT by xwing]
LOL, Shot gun,
If they were Jihad trained terrorist i would probably be dead. Those guys either die or kill you...And well trained too.All the more reasons for extra rounds
One of the reasons I quit being LEO was the fact that you could not just say F-uk it and run away(plus i'm not that type...Stubborn). Another was pay, but that is a different story.
The other was the so called scenarios Shivan was , I guess, joking about. I guess Shivan has never been in a backwoods night club in the boondocks responding to a Disturbance call...Alone...the only white guy in a black night club...Your damn right I want as many rounds as my gun will hold. Perhaps Shivan has never had to draw his weapon on a live person...I have..on several occasions. It is quite un-nerving, especially when you know most of the people there have weapons that you cant see. 5 minutes seems like an etenity waiting for backup to arrive. Or maybe going to make a bust on a meth lab or dope dealers home.
This stuff happens..IN REAL LIFE...not dream land ...and you are foolish to assume otherwise.
I got tired of doing it every day for little pay and no appreciation for it.
These "scenarios are not just related to Law Enf....Or have you forgotten the Los Angeles Riots from the Rodney King incident...The WTO riots in Seattle WA. The riots recently in Cincinnati OH over the shooting of a black man
My god man you can even see it on the COPS show...(plus poor marksmanship on the officers part. I watched a episode last month were a K9 off. and dog caught up with a robbery suspect with a handgun. The K9 had the guy by the leg and BG tried to shoot the Officer. The officer emptied a A Sig 226 at the man and only hit his trigger finger(unknown at the time) While he was reloading, 2 Sherriffs deputies arrived and emptied their Para's on the guy, finally killing him. Over 30 rounds were fired and the BG was hit 5 time2 9mm and 3 .45ACp...30 rounds at less than 30 feet...Still feel safe with just 8 rounds...He was on Crystal Meth and it took 5 hits to stop him 5 hits... On national TV..what if there wer 2 or 3 with guns?
There is alot involved in using a gun in a running battle. You are scared, your adrenelin is pumped, you will probably be heading for cover...as will your target.Shooting on the move? how often do you practice this?...Even under controled match situations you are going to have misses on movers...and they are predictable to an extent...a person is not. You will more than likely miss your first shot.
These are all things you must consider if you carry a weapon and decide to not be a victim...and be prepared for.
Futher , the arguement that you choose accuracy over capacity is hogwash. I can name you a nice list of Hi Cap guns that are just as accurate as single stack 6,7&8+1 guns.and far more accurate than those compact models.
I can understand carrying a small gun for concealment reasons especially if you have a small frame and it is hard to hide a full size gun. I am big and this is not a problem for me so I pack a full size hi-cap gun.
But this is my preferance. Some feel just fine with the low cap guns and any gun is better than no gun But I believe in being prepared. I like the added security of having an extra 5 to 6 rounds in my gun just in case.
And as far as spoofing USPSA/IPSC and IDPA Shivan ,perhaps you should try it instead of knocking it. It may teach you something you just thought you were good at
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 7:11:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
LOL, Shot gun,
If they were Jihad trained terrorist i would probably be dead. Those guys either die or kill you...And well trained too.All the more reasons for extra rounds
One of the reasons I quit being LEO was the fact that you could not just say F-uk it and run away(plus i'm not that type...Stubborn). Another was pay, but that is a different story.
The other was the so called scenarios Shivan was , I guess, joking about. I guess Shivan has never been in a backwoods night club in the boondocks responding to a Disturbance call...Alone...the only white guy in a black night club...Your damn right I want as many rounds as my gun will hold. Perhaps Shivan has never had to draw his weapon on a live person...I have..on several occasions. It is quite un-nerving, especially when you know most of the people there have weapons that you cant see. 5 minutes seems like an etenity waiting for backup to arrive. Or maybe going to make a bust on a meth lab or dope dealers home.
This stuff happens..IN REAL LIFE...not dream land ...and you are foolish to assume otherwise.
I got tired of doing it every day for little pay and no appreciation for it.
These "scenarios are not just related to Law Enf....Or have you forgotten the Los Angeles Riots from the Rodney King incident...The WTO riots in Seattle WA. The riots recently in Cincinnati OH over the shooting of a black man
My god man you can even see it on the COPS show...(plus poor marksmanship on the officers part. I watched a episdoe last month were a K9 off. and dog caught up with a robbery suspect with a handgun. The K9 had the guy by the leg and he tried to shoot the Officer. He emptied a A Sig 226 ant the man and only hit his trigger finger(unknown at the time) While he was reloading 2 Sherriffs deputies arrived and emptied their Para's on the guy, finally killing him. Over 30 rounds were fired and the BG was hit 5 time2 9mm and 3 .45ACp...30 rounds at less than 30 feet...Still feel safe with just 8 rounds...He was on Crystal Meth and it took 5 hits to stop him 5 hits...what if there wer 2 or 3 with guns?
There is alot involved in using a gun in a running battle. You are scared, your adrenelin is pumped, you will probably be heading for cover...as will your target.Shooting on the move? how often do you practice this?...Even under controled match situations you are going to have misses on movers...and they are predictable to an extent...a person is not. You will more than likely miss your first shot.
These are all things you must consider if you carry a weapon and decide to not be a victim...and be prepared for.
Futher , the arguement that you choose accuracy over capacity is hogwash.I can name you a nice list of Hi Cap guns that are just as accurate as single stack 6,7&8+1 guns.and far more accurate than those compact models.
I can understand carrying a small gun for concealment reasons especially if you have a small frame and it is hard to hide a full size gun. I am big and this is not a problem for me so I pack a full size hi-cap gun.
But this is my preferance. Some feel just fine with the low cap guns and any gun is better than no gun But I believe in being prepared. I like the added security of having an extra 5 to 6 rounds in my gun just in case.
And as far as spoofing USPSA/IPSC and IDPA Shivan ,perhaps you should try it instead of knocking it. It may teach you something you just thought you were good at



Firstly, you assume wrong. I have drawn down on two people. Luckily both times the individuals were smart enough to carry on, and leave me be. Further, normal folks are not allowed in a nightclub with a firearm concealed, and I won't be open carrying in this metro area.

Secondly, because I have no aspirations to be a paid bullet magnet and asshole controller I will never have the reason to be in an all black neighborhood by myself with a bunch of pissed off gangsters and no choice but to hang around.

Thirdly, I am not necessarily knocking the shooting sports designed around handguns, but I would want a sport where the results were a function of my skill not the function of jamming a ridiculously sized mag in the well to "cheat" the system and shave seconds. I am actually searching out IDPA in this area.

Lastly, even if I had 200rds in a SAW, I wouldn't be sticking around for more than a few shots. I'm not a cop, nor do I want to be Rambo. You can prepare for whatever you wish. Knock yourself out. As I pointed out, I am not planning, nor do I lead a lifestyle that will have me dueling at high noon with Wyatt and Doc.

I suppose we can carry on about Chevy vs. Dodge, 9mm vs. 45acp, .308 vs .223, etc. My comments were directed towards the guys who buy 9mm guns for the 15-17rds. I wonder what guys did back before there were hi-cap pistols? Wonder how they got by with 7rds of 45acp or 6rds of .357mag?

If you want to carry a fullsize Glock, knock yourself out -- I think they suck -- from an ergonomic and aesthetic standpoint.

I'm done, I've said my piece I have no more use to discuss the matter with you. When you actually have 13 gun-wielding guys attack you, in real life, maybe I'll ask your survivors how it went with your fullsize Glock.

Cheers.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 7:56:52 PM EDT
Shivan if your "area" is near Norfolk there is even better than IDPA available to you.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 8:01:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:
Shivan if your "area" is near Norfolk there is even better than IDPA available to you.



Intrigued. I am about 2.5 hours north of Norfolk.

To what are you referring?
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 8:10:50 PM EDT
LOL
If you want a more normal mag round count in competiton try Production Div....Or mabe Limited 10. This way you can compete with guns you feel more comfortable and realistic with.

You must remember that those 20 round guns are for fun, speed and accuracy, not carry.
As to your having to pull your gun, Im glad you did not have too, or ever will have to fire it or even pull it.

Second I HAVE had to pull on 5 to 6 at one time... more than once...never had to fire on them either but I would have if they even flinched. I was not there buy choice, I was there because it was my duty and it was expected of me...and if they paid good I would still do it. But not for 20k a year.

And in the old west, instead of hi caps, gunfighters carried 2 guns, not one....12 rounds vs. 6...

The comment about the SAW and not hanging around...you know how many people been shot running away where they loose site of an assailant?....Lets just say it not a good idea to turn your back on a threat.

As to Caliber . I believe shot placement is more important than caliber. A larger bullet is great if you can handle it but some cant and are more accurate with 9mm or .380 etc. that is mostly personal preferance.

As to my carrying a Glock, I also carry my Para XD and the kimber from time to time... All are good guns. accurate and reliable to a fault...or I would not be carrying them. I like Glocks,...you dont we agree to disagree.

You do have a habit of making broad statements with such as the comment that you give up capacity for superior accuracy that is a false assumtion on your part and get offended and attack and ridicule others such as Yar1182 when they provide their opinion. That is childish. Such comments need and will be challenged. If you cant take it the good manner it is offered then take it however you want.
This is not the 1st topic you have been...pissy on. While I dont like to be rude, I can be. If you dont like open discussion thats fine .but dont ridicule others for voicing their thoughts just because it does not fit your opinion.
Remember you are the one who starts stuff by making fun of , ridiculing and slamming others....If you have no futher comments that is great too....better for us
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 8:33:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
LOL
If you want a more normal mag round count in competiton try Production Div....Or mabe Limited 10. This way you can compete with guns you feel more comfortable and realistic with.

You must remember that those 20 round guns are for fun, speed and accuracy, not carry.
As to your having to pull your gun, Im glad you did not have too, or ever will have to fire it or even pull it.

Second I HAVE had to pull on 5 to 6 at one time... more than once...never had to fire on them either but I would have if they even flinched. I was not there buy choice, I was there because it was my duty and it was expected of me...and if they paid good I would still do it. But not for 20k a year.

And in the old west, instead of hi caps, gunfighters carried 2 guns, not one....12 rounds vs. 6...

The comment about the SAW and not hanging around...you know how many people been shot running away where they loose site of an assailant?....Lets just say it not a good idea to turn your back on a threat.

As to Caliber . I believe shot placement is more important than caliber. A larger bullet is great if you can handle it but some cant and are more accurate with 9mm or .380 etc. that is mostly personal preferance.

As to my carrying a Glock, I also carry my Para XD and the kimber from time to time... All are good guns. accurate and reliable to a fault...or I would not be carrying them. I like Glocks,...you dont we agree to disagree.

You do have a habit of making broad statements with such as the comment that you give up capacity for superior accuracy that is a false assumtion on your part and get offended and attack and ridicule others such as Yar1182 when they provide their opinion. That is childish. Such comments need and will be challenged. If you cant take it the good manner it is offered then take it however you want.
This is not the 1st topic you have been...pissy on. While I dont like to be rude, I can be. If you dont like open discussion thats fine .but dont ridicule others for voicing their thoughts just because it does not fit your opinion.
Remember you are the one who starts stuff by making fun of , ridiculing and slamming others....If you have no futher comments that is great too....better for us



Well, thought I was done but since you still can't post a post under 8 paragraphs long:

Can you read? I am not a cop. Don't want to be a cop, don't care how cops train or what they think they can do against 13 assailants. Try it. Die.

Understand?

Again you are taking things literally. Are you new to the internet? My allusion to the SAW is a demonstration that even though I can obviously lay down 700rds per minute and have 200rds I am NOT interested in sticking around for a gun fight with multiple attackers.

There is a drill where Ayooub is presented with three armed attackers and in none of the scenarios he was able to "kill" all three before being "killed". He is among the best at self-defense shooting in real-life scenarios.

If you want to carry around a boat anchor with 45rds of 230gr 45acp, do it. There are people far better than you or me who "make due" with a 1911 Gov't with 8+1 and a spare mag. I'm sure they are under-prepared, right?

I didn't make a broad statement so much as a poorly defined one. I was specifically directing my comments to the 9mm hi-cap fans, in which case I'd rather have 10+1 40S&W or 7+1 45acp. I believe this so much I sold off my 92FS in 9mm, with 4 hicap mags.

Further, the "attack" that you elude to on Yar1182 is in the context of competition. I think practicality, so yes when I've watched these "competitions" I see a bunch of bullshit that would obviously only be seen on the course. Wouldn't pratical shooting be with things that are, um, practical?

You can be pissy all you'd like, I don't have thin skin. Knock yourself out. BTW, with sub 100 posts how do YOU know what I have a habit of?? Please do not attempt to claim you know anything about me. I simply don't often feel like typing 8 paragraphs to get a simple point across. Errantly I left out that I was referring to 9mm, specificially. Sorry it got your panties in a wad.

Carry on.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:47:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Zoub:
Shivan if your "area" is near Norfolk there is even better than IDPA available to you.



Intrigued. I am about 2.5 hours north of Norfolk.

To what are you referring?



I have to get you exact details. Local club in Norfolk does IDPA shoots every two weeks at an indoor range. They went to the next level. About 4 times a year they have a big shoot at Blackwater Lodge. IDPA will not endorse these shoots because they say there is too much steel being used. But these guys are all about real world stuff. Besides, when is the last time you spent the weeeknd shooting at Blackwater Lodge for $60!!!

Indoor, outdoor, room clearing at night, shooting around cars. Backup only matches, some shotgun too. I plan to fly in for the next one. I still have an unused airline ticket from last attempt to go.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 10:12:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2003 2:19:49 AM EDT by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
There must be a reason why special ops and swat teams carry 8rds of .45 instead of 17 of 9mm?



Fight stopping power in a package whos ergonomics and reliability offer a very high repeat hit potential (1911).

The above doesnt have anything to do with me, but Im comfortable with 7+ shots of a substantial caliber.
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 2:06:52 AM EDT
Yes. Capacity matters to me.

I train to put two rounds in each target, at least. in 10 years of LE work i have found that violent criminals tend to travel in groups of at least 3. So figure on firing at least 6 shots, not counting misses, before you even re-evaluate the threat.
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 3:27:43 AM EDT
Shot placement is #1. If you keep shooting and missing, you're giving them more time to get on target and shoot you. I would concentrate on finding a gun that fits your hand and you can control. If that turns out to be a hi cap, great, if not only hits count. In 26 years as an officer, I've been in one shooting, and a single load of 00 took care of the situation. I'm issued a Glock 22, 16 rds of .40 is very nice, but the gun fits my hand and I can control it. I'd carry my Springfield .45 and be very happy with it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 7:54:20 AM EDT
If we are talking strictly about self-defense, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a gun with a lower capacity, such as a 1911. I believe if I haven't put down and armed assailant with a few rounds fired, I should begin to think about seeking cover (and reloading). I like the 357 Sig and 10mm. The guns I own that use these calibers have higher capacity magazines. So I use them. I've never had to pull a gun on anyone (I have pulled it on a few "anythings").Most of my older relatives have shot at someone in their lifetime...and most times they missed the person they were attempting to shoot. Can't fight heredity, so I'll probably miss the first time I have to shoot someone, too. I wouldn't feel safe carrying six or seven rounds in a gun without "spare" ammo. I want a shootable gun, that I can control. It doesn't really matter how much the magazine can hold; I'll reload. To me, it's platform first and then capacity.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 5:14:44 PM EDT
At first, I was going to state an emphatic 'yes', but the more I thought about it, the more other concerns came up as more important to me.

I've got a Springfield Armory XD9 pistol with three ten round mags. If and when the AWB goes away, I'll gladly pick up three replacememnt fifteen rounders, but when I decided to buy the XD, it was because I shot well with it, it fit the hand nicely, and had a reputation for Glock-esque reliability.

That I could load fifteen rounds of nine into the forty-cal mags and/or buy fifteen round mags later was only a peripheral concern.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 6:30:24 PM EDT
I tried carrying one of those lightweight revolvers a while back, but was just not comfortable with just 5 shots. So I am back a pistol with a 17 round magazine.

I think all this "precisely aimed shots under pressure" talk is a good idea and we should train that way, but you will never know the situation you are up against. You'll be nervous, and pulling that trigger repeatedly will definately bring some comfort to your heart and make the people down range shit bricks. Fire superiority is more of a military concept than something you hear in connection with self-defense, but all those bangs has got to have a psychological impact on both the attacker and defender. It is definately an inferior option to two precisely aimed shots to the head, but who knows, given the situation or your nerves when the S realy HTF, whether that will always be possible.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 7:28:48 PM EDT
Imposter
You took the words out of my mouth. Training is good but fear and adrenalin mixed will cause even a practiced shot to rush the shot. In every well planed response to a threat there is a dark Wizard waving his wand over your plan saying" turn to sh-t!"
Constant practice will elliminate this to a point ,but not completely.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:41:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Yes. Capacity matters to me.

I train to put two rounds in each target, at least. in 10 years of LE work i have found that violent criminals tend to travel in groups of at least 3. So figure on firing at least 6 shots, not counting misses, before you even re-evaluate the threat.



So that only excludes revolvers-and anymore not all of them.

The thing I look at is the time factor. How LONG will it take me to hit and drop each badguy. The longer it takes per badguy the more time they have to do something to me. I think that is what SWAT and SF guys look at too, and why so many of them carry .45's and settle for just 8 rounds. Once you are behind cover, you can reload, and if you are outside of cover, will you have enough time to live to fire all the rounds you have?

I'd like to try a double stack .45 like a Glock or Para-Ordanance, but I have a feeling that I might not be able to get my hand around it to shoot comfortably.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:55:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 9:58:34 PM EDT by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Yes. Capacity matters to me.

I train to put two rounds in each target, at least. in 10 years of LE work i have found that violent criminals tend to travel in groups of at least 3. So figure on firing at least 6 shots, not counting misses, before you even re-evaluate the threat.



So that only excludes revolvers-and anymore not all of them.

The thing I look at is the time factor. How LONG will it take me to hit and drop each badguy. The longer it takes per badguy the more time they have to do something to me. I think that is what SWAT and SF guys look at too, and why so many of them carry .45's and settle for just 8 rounds. Once you are behind cover, you can reload, and if you are outside of cover, will you have enough time to live to fire all the rounds you have?

I'd like to try a double stack .45 like a Glock or Para-Ordanance, but I have a feeling that I might not be able to get my hand around it to shoot comfortably.



Not to mention, if you take the time to double tap 3 seperate active targets in close range, I can guarantee you #3 is going to hit you first. If at least one of them is behind cover, you have time to get cover too, which means you have time to reload. And if you have time to get cover, why wouldnt you instead of actively seeking and engaging 3 hostiles?

And you better freakin have backup.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 10:23:30 PM EDT
Time to double tap three active targets at close range. I think about that a lot ever since last October when this case happened here in Phoenix:

POLICE SEARCH FOR TWO SKINHEADS SUSPECTED IN A BRUTAL BEATING DEATH IN PHOENIX By Maria Neider (10/25/02)

Maria Neider

Investigators are calling it one of the most violent killings of an innocent bystander. Authorities are looking for 26 year old Sammy Compton and 24 year old Christopher Whitley. Both men are wanted for questioning in the murder of 20-year old Cole Bailey Jr., who was kicked and stomped to death outside of a Phoenix pool hall.
Last Wednesday, authorities say Bailey was waiting for a taxi outside of River City Pockets at 11th Street and Bell Road in Phoenix. A fight broke out and Bailey watched as it spilled outside into the parking lot, where he was standing. Witnesses say someone yelled, "What are you looking at?" Bailey ran and three men chased after him. They tackled him and started kicking him and stomping his head with their steel-toed shoes.
Cole Bailey Sr., "A young woman named Allison Green came running over. She was there for his last moments. She said there was blood coming from his ears and his nose and he was choking on his own blood, kind of looking at her in the eyes and trying to say help me, help me."
Phoenix police arrested one of the suspects that Friday, 24-year old Brandon Miller.
26-year old Sammy Compton and 24-year old Christopher Whitley, also known as "Cracker," remain at large. All three suspects are skinheads and belong to a white supremacy gang called "Stoners for Life." Investigators say Compton and Whitley may have fled to Tucson, to hideout with friends and family.
Private Investigator Randy Downer, "These are two young men who have both spent time in prison and once they were released, they committed one of the most savage killings I have heard about. So I would warn the public to be on the lookout and to call authorities immediately, because these are two very, very dangerous young men.”
Both suspects have white supremacy tattoos. Compton has "white pride" inked across his lower back. Whitley has a swastika under his right eye and "Cracker" on the back of his head.
A memorial service for Cole Bailey Jr. was held in Phoenix October 22nd. The innocent victim was much smaller than his attackers. Bailey weighed only 130 pounds and had a pacemaker.
Cole Bailey Sr., “We'll miss him greatly. It's just a shock you don't get over. It's something you go to bed thinking about... about how he died. It's the "what if's". It's the,"Why couldn't I have been there?" Why couldn't this, why couldn't that... what if... what if.”
Phoenix police are looking into whether a fourth suspect was involved in Bailey’s murder.
A $10,000 reward is being offered for information leading to an arrest.
If you have seen one of the suspects or have any information; Call 88-CRIME or 911.
All calls are anonymous.

Link Posted: 9/6/2003 10:40:49 PM EDT
My point being IF you have to shoot 3 active targets, double taps are not the sound engagement tactic. You will be on the receiving end of the violence before you can put 2 in each target. 1 each and reassess.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 10:49:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 10:51:10 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
My point being IF you have to shoot 3 active targets, double taps are not the sound engagement tactic. You will be on the receiving end of the violence before you can put 2 in each target. 1 each and reassess.



Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.
But I wasn't arguing with you, I thought it might be possible to do three in a decent amout of time but that it would be close and seing that even two shots are not always enough from a handgun.

Serve everyone first and then go back for seconds if need be... is there any handgun/caliber/cartridge combination that can do that reliably?
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 11:30:57 PM EDT
For me, 230gr JHP out of the 1911. Its soft recoiling, with a fast resetting trigger. But then again, its the style of handgun Ive carried since I could carry a handgun. What ever gun and caliber you can hit accurately with. Make accuracy a goal, speed will come with stress...
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 9:21:49 AM EDT
I'm old school.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:04:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
The thing I look at is the time factor. How LONG will it take me to hit and drop each badguy.



Double-taps into 3 targets should take less than three seconds
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 1:17:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
The thing I look at is the time factor. How LONG will it take me to hit and drop each badguy.



Double-taps into 3 targets should take less than three seconds



Sure, on a square range, with unobscured, non-moving targets you can run that IPSC drill all day.

Thank God bad guys line up and stand still.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 6:45:24 AM EDT

Thank God bad guys line up and stand still.


I thought it was cuzz ya yells "FREEZE ! ! !"
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 6:37:37 PM EDT
Damn you're old school SGB....

DONT MOVE is the prefered phrase these days

Link Posted: 9/8/2003 8:43:41 PM EDT
Actually
I can do the 3 target double tap in 3 seconds, while moving or 4 shots on a moving target in under 4...and all will be "C" & "A" hits ...But I practice a WHOLE LOT...1000 + a month...
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:34:08 AM EDT
Let me approach this at a different angle. I prefer hi-caps for HK USP's and especially for Sigs... The sig postban mags suck. These days, manufacturers simply modify full-cap mags to reduce them to 10 rounds. Capacity aside, I would rather use the magazines that were originally intended for the gun.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 9:08:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 9:10:11 PM EDT by chuckhammer]
I carry one of two guns for self-defense: a highly customized Colt CCO 4.25" .45 with 7+1 or a stock Ruger SP101 3" .357 with 5. I believe either of these will be more than enough to get me out of trouble in a self-defense situation.

That being said, my SIG P226 9mm is fed nothing but full-capacity magazines. Anything else is insulting to me both philosphically and aesthetically. They don't call it a "wondernine" for nuthin'.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 4:33:54 PM EDT
Where is the part about the gang of flesh eating zombies?
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 4:47:17 PM EDT
Flesh eating Zombies....
You realize of course that Zombies can only be killed with a shot in the head. That means unless you are a really good shot, your gonna waste a few shots on each one...All the more reason for all the bullets you can squeeze into the mag!...And LOts of spare mags too!
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 4:48:22 PM EDT
Flesh eating Zombies....
You realize of course that Zombies can only be killed with a shot in the head. That means unless you are a really good shot, your gonna waste a few shots on each one...All the more reason for all the bullets you can squeeze into the mag!...And LOts of spare mags too!
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 2:35:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2003 2:47:17 AM EDT by pulpsmack]
Does capacity mean something?

For range? It is a convenience
For defense? It had fucking better mean something.

Your question is very broad. I can only speak about defense and even there, there are different camps. I was in a shootout and all I had was a racked .45 (1 in the pipe 6 in the magazine) and no spare. It was a mistake I was lucky to live through. Believe me, There is nothing worse than shooting at some motherfucker, being shot at, & having to ration your trigger pulls so you have at least a few escape rounds. I got 4 rounds off, he got off at least 11. Today I still carry that pistol but I have at least one 10 round magazine for backup (its an officer's sized 1911). I would carry my Para with 15 rds of .45, but I live in a very hot climate where concealibility is a must. Otherwise I would have a long coat and carry a Bushmaster Carbon 15 -seriously. That brings us to the 2 camps of defense: CCW & self defense. CCW (unless you are in winter) requires a smaller gun, hence fewer rounds. A good capacity for mags on a home defense gun (one in the car where legal or the night stand) is 15. My Para carries 16 rounds of .45 (1 in the pipe & 15 round extended mags). The only willing sacrifice I would make to ammo capacity is for caliber. After all this is not only a quantity game. Quality has more to do with it as in the case of proper caliber and shot placement. That being said, a .45 with a 13 round capacity is a better choice than a 7 round weapon, assuming relative size and comfort. That's why I'll probably never ger a Sig P220. It is an incredible and durable weapon, but the weapon's small capacity is ridiculous for the size of the weapon.

For your own protection I would STRONGLY insist on the following:

1. Carry the biggest baddest thing you can control that works in the ballistic curve for knockdown power (.357 sig/mag, .40, .45 rather than .44 mag, .50, 10mm).

2. Get the highest capacity configuration that will work for your purposes (i.e. CCW will require smaller capacity) and ALWAYS HAVE SPARE MAGS.

Note: Some pointed out very accurately the quality/reliability factor in a weapon. A piece of shit with 17 rounds is not an improvement over a rock solid six-shooter, for example.
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 2:42:43 AM EDT
I hedge my bets. 2 spare mags on me at all times, and a .38 back up.
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