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Posted: 8/12/2003 6:00:59 PM EDT
I've seen a few in a few places and they are like TWO GRAND!

What gives? The threaded o ring barrel is that expensive?
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 6:38:16 PM EDT
Hype.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 7:00:36 PM EDT
It would seem that it shouldn't be that much more expensive than a regular HK pistol. I'd like to get one and add the supressor later, but not at that price.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 7:09:41 PM EDT
www.hkpro.com/socom.htm

Research? Adaptability? Proven track record? Who knows?

Most likely a hyped up market. But every H&K USP I have ever fired has always been dead nuts accurate, even if I was having an off day.

Ed
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:21:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2003 8:22:23 PM EDT by xwing]
Because it says HK on the slide...overrated IMHO. Forget that high priced sissy gun and get yourself a Glock :)
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:29:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
Because it says HK on the slide...overrated IMHO. Forget that high priced sissy gun and get yourself a Glock :)



Do you get a whisk with the tupperware?



Just wondering if they put band-aids in the tupperware now, to help you out with injuries from the Kabooms?

Glock. I'm sure there's a funny question there somewhere that deserves "Glock" as an answer.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:38:10 PM EDT
LOL, Lagh it up furr ball:)
But my Glock has taken out several STI's SV's Wilsons, Baer's and Para's. It may not be pretty but it works every time :)
More than I can say for them High Dollar race guns...oh, Im sorry, I mean jam-O-matics...lol
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:42:00 PM EDT
Recouping R&D money for the worlds first crew-served pistol
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 9:34:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2003 9:35:10 PM EDT by David_Hineline]
It is a military contract item. Federal law requires that any company that sells a product to the civilian market must not charge the government more for that same item. So if they want to charge uncle sam $2000 for that pistol they can't sell it to you any less.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 5:11:50 AM EDT
Our tax money at work....
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:03:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
LOL, Lagh it up furr ball:)
But my Glock has taken out several STI's SV's Wilsons, Baer's and Para's. It may not be pretty but it works every time :)
More than I can say for them High Dollar race guns...oh, Im sorry, I mean jam-O-matics...lol



Taken out? To dinner? You shot them? What does "taken out" mean in the context of competing firearms?

Are you the cool kid in the class? Should I look up to you now?

"Glocks: given to PD's around the country, because most wouldn't BUY them for $100/unit."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~­~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All kidding aside, I'm sure Glock makes a fine weapon. I hate their ergonomics and the way they look. My Kimber CDP II and H&K USP40c go bang every time I pull the trigger. They consume aluminum cased shit range ammo, or premium defense ammo.

I guess the only thing that differs between that and a Glock is I didn't get the fancy tupperware box to hold it in.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 7:32:10 AM EDT
Wienies carry Glocks.

Real men carry American made steel, not euro-trash tactical tupperwear.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 7:38:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Wienies carry Glocks.

Real men carry American made steel, not euro-trash tactical tupperwear.



Damn, I better not buy that Brazalian marked Springfield TRP then......
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 8:16:46 AM EDT
Your thread was hijacked! By a bunch of 'my dick is bigger than yours' adolescents.

Why is it $2k? I duuno, but here is my nickels worth.....

The HK is proven.
It says SOCOM on the box.
The govt. thinks they need it and will pay $2K.

But to me it is way too big, way too heavy (for my needs) Everyone has there own preferences, thus the Glocks and all those five thousand flavors of 1911's, and even a few of us left who like revolvers too!
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 8:20:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Wienies carry Glocks.

Real men carry American made steel, not euro-trash tactical tupperwear.



Damn, I better not buy that Brazalian marked Springfield TRP then......



Thats hot South American Salsa Steel
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 8:21:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BillSP1:

Originally attributed to SHIVAN:
'my dick is bigger than yours'




Well it is!
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 8:28:17 AM EDT
Because it has a very limited range of ideal useage and has experienced a limited production.

It is a huge tank designed to be a primary weapon, not a side arm. With this comes the ability to have a even bigger tank after you bolt a bunch of lights and lasers to it......add the suppressor and your set. Now go do your SOC thing.

As with any primary weapon, the Mk 23 is probably the most tested handgun ever produced. It's operational and accuracy requirement may also be the most stringent ever required in a military handgun.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:31:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 9:35:10 AM EDT by xwing]
The SOCOM is also listed as an "Offensive weapon and not as a secondary defensive one as is the M9 or 1911.
As to taken out :)
Alot of people are under the assumtion( falsely of course) that if they buy a big name/Hi Dollar gun like the STI's and Wilsons etc.. that they will be able to shoot like Rob Leatham or Brian Enos. They show up at our matches...and Area Matches with a 2 grand gun and another 1k in hardware and are going to be shooting gods. Then along comes a fat little redneck (me:D ) and his Combat Tupperware and equipment for less than $900 bucks and hands them their ego on a BBQ(we redneck only use silver for Soda machines) platter :D. They stop making fun of it AFTER they see what plastic can do in the right hands :)
I own others, among them A Para P-14 , A newly accquired KImber TLE, SIG 226, SPrigfield XD9, and a Taurus PT92AF. These are metal guns and all are excellent weapons....I just PREFER Glocks. more comfortable to shoot and more comfortable = more fun :D
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:36:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
Because it says HK on the slide...overrated IMHO. Forget that high priced sissy gun and get yourself a Glock :)




If by overrated, you mean it won't blow up in your hand.



Then yes, its overrated.


Link Posted: 8/13/2003 10:15:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
LOL, Lagh it up furr ball:)
But my Glock has taken out several STI's SV's Wilsons, Baer's and Para's. It may not be pretty but it works every time :)
More than I can say for them High Dollar race guns...oh, Im sorry, I mean jam-O-matics...lol



Ahem.

You have not encountered MY Les Baer. It is a very tight gun but has been dead reliable since I bought it.

Those I trained with who carried Glocks DROOLED over my Baer. They all wanted one.

If you have been able to best 1911 shooters in the past, odds are that they just weren't good shooters. Put my LB1911 against a Glock 21 and have us clean a plate rack.

I guarantee I will come out ahead...
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 11:00:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 11:12:05 AM EDT by Boomholzer]
It's a pity that "Glock Talk" has to infiltrate every other handgun discussion. This topic has nothing to do with Glocks. If you wanna talk Glock 24/7 goto the website or start your own topic on how great they are.

Here is what your saying:

"I dont know jack-shit about any other guns so I can't contribute this this topic HOWEVER I own a Glock and have successfully pulled the trigger many times."
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 11:31:29 AM EDT
Well I guess it comes down to...

If you had $2000 to buy just one handgun, how many would buy the HK SOCOM?

As a civilian I would get a STI and still have money for mags.

I guess if you were a navy seal or elite gun store commando you might opt for the HK Socom.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 12:52:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 12:58:48 PM EDT by xwing]
My apologies to those who dont have a sense of humor, I made my post in a jesting manor in response to my personal opinion on the Socom HK. I do honestly feel that it is over rated for the price you would have to give for it. I also think my Kimber will hang any day with a Les Baer. And Plates are one of my favorites.
Yes, you are correct that The shooters were poor shots. ( Thats what I meant with " people are under the assumtion( falsely of course) that if they buy a big name/Hi Dollar gun like the STI's and Wilsons etc.. that they will be able to shoot like Rob Leatham or Brian Enos.")
IT is also because I AM a good shooter, becaue I practice, not just with a Glock, but with 1911's Sigs AR's Shotguns etc. I have shot the civilian version of the HK 23 and , while it is very accurate ,so is my Kimber, and ,... it is big and cumbersome for those with small hands( not me of course) and the trigger is not what I'd call great either.
As to lack of ability or knowledge, have Sooo...I know my way around most guns.
As to turning this into Glock talk, Im sorry ,but I was merely defending a good gun. And , all my responses were in good humor, without questioning anyone ability or intellingence. And I DO go to Glock Talk. I also am a regular in 1911 forums. SA/XD forums and a few others, not to mention the USPSA members forum . I have an open mind and enjoy new ideas . If they are good I say that, if they dont float my boat I say that too, ..respectfully.
As to Mr. Boomholzer's comments, let me say this...even us rednecks here in MS show more respect for our dogs that he does for anothers opinions. He has no knowledge of my ablities or background yet spouts insults at me. This just show how scared some poeple are of a different point of view that doesn't fit theres...lol..he And again I think the SOCOM H&K is over rated. Not that its not a quality gun or not accurate ...but why pay over 2000 bucks when you can have equal or better performace for less money?...Its a no Brainer ...
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 12:57:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 12:57:28 PM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By xwing:
Because it says HK on the slide...overrated IMHO. Forget that high priced sissy gun and get yourself a Glock :)



This is defending a good gun??

The first post to mention a comparison between Glock and H&K.....

Otherwise, apology accepted.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:06:15 PM EDT
LOL shiv,
Im not backing down on the glock, just letting someone know that I do know a little ..lol
For the type shooting they are designed for, the Glock is great. It can not comete at long range with the 1911( good ones that is and not ILAMAS) I have not had a jam with it or a K.B. after 20,000+. But thats anoyther topic.
I just dont see the HK as a superior gun over any other gun other than being Heavy duty. and admit it , the trigger on those things suck. the one or two I shot had lots of creep in the trigger. But, That is my PERSONAL opinion
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:07:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 1:09:13 PM EDT by Boomholzer]

Originally Posted By xwing:
...........As to turning this into Glock talk, Im sorry ,but I was merely defending a good gun. And , all my responses were in good humor, without questioning anyone ability or intellingence. And I DO go to Glock Talk. I also am a regular in 1911 forums. SA/XD forums and a few others, not to mention the USPSA members forum . I have an open mind and enjoy new ideas . If they are good I say that, if they dont float my boat I say that too, ..respectfully.
As to Mr. Boomholzer's comments, let me say this...even us rednecks here in MS show more respect for our dogs that he does for anothers opinions. He has no knowledge of my ablities or background yet spouts insults at me. This just show how scared some poeple are of a different point of view that doesn't fit theres...lol..



Topic: Why is the HK SOCOM .45 pistol so Expensive

1st Respective Responses

xwing: Because it says HK on the slide...overrated IMHO. Forget that high priced sissy gun and get yourself a Glock :)

Boomholzer: Because it has a very limited range of ideal useage and has experienced a limited production.

It is a huge tank designed to be a primary weapon, not a side arm. With this comes the ability to have a even bigger tank after you bolt a bunch of lights and lasers to it......add the suppressor and your set. Now go do your SOC thing.

As with any primary weapon, the Mk 23 is probably the most tested handgun ever produced. It's operational and accuracy requirement may also be the most stringent ever required in a military handgun.


*********************************­

No insult toward xwing was intended. The topic is not about xwing's Glock(s), xwing's shooting ability or if xwing is a true redneck. The topic is also not about if Boomholzer kicks his dog (which he does not).
I did not post MY personal opinion on the gun, just to why it might cost so damn much. Every damn pistol thread gets benchmarked to Glock.

I guess the HK costs so much to show the military that it is superior to a Glock. That has been the sum conclusion of the posts in this thread.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:13:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
LOL shiv,
Im not backing down on the glock, just letting someone know that I do know a little ..lol
For the type shooting they are designed for, the Glock is great. It can not comete at long range with the 1911( good ones that is and not ILAMAS) I have not had a jam with it or a K.B. after 20,000+. But thats anoyther topic.
I just dont see the HK as a superior gun over any other gun other than being Heavy duty. and admit it , the trigger on those things suck. the one or two I shot had lots of creep in the trigger. But, That is my PERSONAL opinion



In DA guns I like the H&K trigger the best, though it is heavy. When practiced with I find it positive and accurate.

In comparison to my Kimber's SA trigger, well the Kimber wins hands down, but they are different tools.

I absolutely hate the way Glocks feel, I hate the way they look, never shot one, never needed to....

I like the Teutonic feel of H&K's and Sigs. I also like, to a lesser degree the well fitting and smooth feel of the Beretta. Not as handy or as accurate for me as my H&K USP, but nonetheless a good firearm.

You can love Glocks all day long an twice on Sundays, but a direct question about the H&K MK23 SOCOM is not answered with, "buy a glock".
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:14:13 PM EDT
"No insult toward xwing was intended"

Excuse me?...

Orinially posted by Boomholzer
"Here is what your saying:

"I dont know jack-shit about any other guns so I can't contribute this this topic HOWEVER I own a Glock and have successfully pulled the trigger many times." ..."
What was that?
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:17:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomholzer:
I guess the HK costs so much to showremind the military that it is superior to a Glock.



Small correction.....
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:18:06 PM EDT
LOL, Shivan ...I know... I aws kidding in that part..h Sorry if I was unclear
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:34:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 1:48:39 PM EDT by Boomholzer]

Originally Posted By xwing:
"No insult toward xwing was intended"

Excuse me?...

Orinially posted by Boomholzer
"Here is what your saying:

"I dont know jack-shit about any other guns so I can't contribute this this topic HOWEVER I own a Glock and have successfully pulled the trigger many times." ..."
What was that?



That was an intrepretation of the endless Glock unfiltration into non-Glock related threads. No where did I state your specific handle. Maybe you were feeling guilty? Its not just your post, its in every pistol realted thread. Maybe I am guilty by association.

Anyway......

I swear that when you buy a Glock you get adopted into some Glock-Masonic Temple and are forced to uphold the honor of the first plastic pistol.

Now I'm guilty of futher pollution by defending my posts.

I can be reading a post where someone is asking a specific question on why their car engines knocks and some knob will respond that Glock should have build their engine.

A glock owner is like the Proud Yappy Salesman you hafta sit next to on a 4 hour airplane flight. The salesmen has 4 kids, Mike, age 4......Sally age 5 who just started kindergarden, Jake who is 10 years old and likes sports.......

And I'm being sarcastic. So there it is; a completly non-objective and personally biased view on Glock owners.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 2:25:20 PM EDT
Great! All of this wonderful input is valuable!
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 4:25:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 4:28:38 PM EDT by Dutch-Shooter]
The high prices for any HK pistol in the USA are redicilous! A SOCOM here in the Netherlands can be found for about €1200+ and I've even seen 'em be sold for €800 2nd hand (rare)! The USP line here is slightly above the price class of the glock pistols (€ 600 - 800 ) So I personally think it has to do with 2 things HYPE and AVAILBILITY (sp?)

Now I dont say this because I hate HK's, in fact I love 'em! but the unreasonble prices they fetch in the USA are simply crazy!
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 4:26:32 PM EDT
I have seen and handled an H&K M-23 SOCOM civilian version handgun, man what a BIG gun. A different weapon than the USP versions I have in my gun safe.

The data I have on this weapon is dated by a few years but here we go...

Designed and tested to Milspec for a govt contract and won said contract.

Video was available circa 1995, impressive stuff like repeated off hand hits at 100 meters on a steel life size gong, not one or two hits, but magazine after magazine.

At 100 meters, try that with your favorite handgun!

30,000 rounds of +P 45ACP 230gr ammo fired between depot maintenance. The video shows a man of medium size firing this weapon rapid fire mag after mag with minimum recoil effect.

Digging this weapon up out of a mud pit completely buried, shaking the fluids out of the bore and then sending lead down range with out any fail to function events.

One article I read states that this weapon during testing had a bullet lodged in the bore (primer only, no powder charge) and the blockage was then cleared by firing a second round. This weapon showed no appreciable loss of accuracy during accuracy tests after this event. (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME)

I wanted one REALLY bad until I handled one…way to big for me, but I do believe it is a unique weapon and deserves its spot in history.

This is not a weapon that can be compared to a Glock, Sig, 1911’s, S&W or any other civilian handgun I have seen to date, this bad boy needs a sound suppressor to enhance balance and shoot ability.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 4:40:25 PM EDT
100 meters on a life size (man size?) gong is not difficult. A good shooter, gun with a good trigger, dialed in sights, and match ammo would make short work of it. I would say it's more shooter and ammo then gun.

I've seen other guns (glocks) shoot through squibs with no or little visable damage. They shot well enough afterwards that you can make the arguement that there was no effect on accuracy. Who really knows?

The thing I'm still trying to get over is $2000. For a 1911-2011 or a really nice wheel gun, sure. For a supersized HK, I'll leave them for the mall ninjas.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 4:47:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
For a supersized HK, I'll leave them for the mall ninjas.



You do realize these same guns are being used still by the real deal, right?

I mean civilians who buy them aren't going to use them to their full potential, but you do realize this gun has been in more harm's way then you, me and the next guy will see in our entire lifetimes?

I leave them to the Mall Ninjas and SEAL Team Six. Yeah, those are close......
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:00:44 PM EDT
Right, but the Seal guys are not on this thread debating the merits of the HK. I also assume they would be able to do their jobs with 1911's, sigs, berrettas or even glocks.

To me, just because it's issued to seals doesn't mean it's a great gun. Though I can see a mall ninja or someone who plays way too much counbterstrike justifying it as so.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:09:13 PM EDT
Good point, but just because YOU and all your friend's think $2000 is overpriced doesn't make it any more or less suitable for that which it was designed, tested and proven. Right?

You can kill deer with 30-30, you can kill deer at 1500yds with a 338 Lapua.

One of those is available for $199 at every Walmart this side of the Mississippi. The other is available from select manufacturers and 200 pieces of brass for it costs more than the other gun.

Sounds like sour grapes about the price, but too proud to admit that is the hangup....

To me, it is huge and not ergonomically pleasing to handle, but I'm sure it is a dream to shoot. The fact that if you want a suppressed .45 there is a company like H&K with your interest already handled and a company like Knights Arm. Co with applications SPECIFICALLY designed to take advantage of the entire system goes a long way in my book.

When I am ready to go that route the MK23 or USP Tactical will be at the top of my list.

Link Posted: 8/13/2003 7:31:52 PM EDT
The price alone is not the hang up, the price for what you get is. I would happily pay that price or more for a race gun.

I can see the appeal of having a suppressed pistol. It can be done to many other pistols by adding a threaded barrel. That it comes from the factory with one does not begin to justify its costs.

All the fancy testing doesn't justify it either. The 1911 is well documented as battle proven. Glocks can be tortured and still go bang. Sigs are just plain sweet. Government contracts are not based solely on the weapon being the best of the best. It is largely based on politics.

Link Posted: 8/13/2003 11:19:41 PM EDT
Could havr something to do with the fact it has a chrome-lined barrel yet match accuracy. Or perhaps the fact it has a finish that is probably the most durable on the market. Or the fact that when you take it apart, the innards are beefy as hell and make Glocks, Sigs, and even USP45Fs look like toys.
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 5:04:03 AM EDT
Please explain the corrilation between Chome lined barrels and match accuracy? I know serveral guns with chomelined barrels that are match guns. Some of the finest AR Match rifles from Baer, Wilson Bushmaster,Clark, etc have chrome lined barrels...Why would it be different in a pistol?
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 5:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomholzer:

I swear that when you buy a Glock you get adopted into some Glock-Masonic Temple and are forced to uphold the honor of the first plastic pistol.




Excuse me??



1965, VP70 more than 20 years before Glock



The VP70 is the original polymer frame handgun, with a design of 1968.
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 6:23:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
Please explain the corrilation between Chome lined barrels and match accuracy? I know serveral guns with chomelined barrels that are match guns. Some of the finest AR Match rifles from Baer, Wilson Bushmaster,Clark, etc have chrome lined barrels...Why would it be different in a pistol?



The chrome lining is applied unto a slightly oversized bore. The thickness of the chrome lining is not perfect, less perfect than a machineing process.

On a pistol barrel, I doubt that any of this is an issue, both with the need for chrome and if the chrome bore effects accuracy.
Ever shoot out a .45 barrel???
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 7:47:10 AM EDT
Yup, My very first .45. It was an old Essex Framed 1911 single stack. I had it several years but didnt shoot it much cause money was tight.(deputy at time and pay was sh-t) When I started driving a Truck my income tripled and I got into shooting...alot. In a year the barrel & bushing was gone. Replaed it with a Jarvis barrel an wilson bushing and a few other niceities and It shoots great. Sold it to B.I.L.. I was curious about the chrome factor. My buddies AR (Bushy varmit) Has heavy barrel w/ chrome lining and is a tack driver. Does this mean that chrome lined barrels are less accurate?
Link Posted: 8/15/2003 10:50:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xwing:
Please explain the corrilation between Chome lined barrels and match accuracy? I know serveral guns with chomelined barrels that are match guns. Some of the finest AR Match rifles from Baer, Wilson Bushmaster,Clark, etc have chrome lined barrels...Why would it be different in a pistol?



Who said it would be different? It's certainly more expensive and I don't know of any other manufacturer who does it.
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 1:23:46 AM EDT
I gathered from your post

"Could havr something to do with the fact it has a chrome-lined barrel yet match accuracy"

that chrome lined barrels were not supposed to be accurate and I was wondering why. Most of the chrome lined barrel i have encountered were quite accurate. And, if they are accurate in rifles, why would it be different is a pistol.
Just curious and wanted your perspective
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 5:53:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
I've seen a few in a few places and they are like TWO GRAND!

What gives? The threaded o ring barrel is that expensive?



Why two grand I couldn't tell you. I've shot one and liked it. It was a bit big and a tad heavy but hey don't like it don't get it. I'd like to have one. And remember it's designed to be a PDW it's listed as an offensive weapon by the military well according to the NRA.
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 5:58:41 AM EDT
If they were the same price, I would still prefer the Tactical over the MK23.

$2000 is just too much.
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 12:37:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2003 12:39:11 PM EDT by Yar1182]

Originally Posted By photoman:
And remember it's designed to be a PDW it's listed as an offensive weapon by the military well according to the NRA.



What's the difference between a offensive and defensive handgun, besides the marketing spin. Are there any other "offensive" handguns? or does HK have that market cornered?
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:16:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Wienies carry Glocks.

Real men carry American made steel, not euro-trash tactical tupperwear.



Good One!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:00:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:

Originally Posted By photoman:
And remember it's designed to be a PDW it's listed as an offensive weapon by the military well according to the NRA.



What's the difference between a offensive and defensive handgun, besides the marketing spin. Are there any other "offensive" handguns? or does HK have that market cornered?



Ya got me i did not designate it as such the military did. You'd have to ask them
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