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Posted: 7/16/2003 11:09:47 PM EDT
I'm not certain where to put this one but here it goes.

What's ya'lls opinion on the merits between the 10mm & the .357Sig? I don't reload so I don't have all of the specs.

I do know the GA Precision ammo I buy uses 125gr @ 1300-1400/fps. 10mm is usually around 180gr @ what, 1100/fps or so?

There's a great article in AM Rifleman on the 10mm.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 12:21:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 12:23:39 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
I'm not a huge fan of either. While neither are bad cartridges, with available ammo choices I think several other cartridges are just as good. The .357 Sig is just a fast 9mm and in testing the better 9mm +P and +P+ loads have proven equal in performance. The 10mm if loaded to full power has lots of potential, especially as a sub-gun round. But for a handgun I would personally choose a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP over the 10mm.

The 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are by far and away the most popular LEO cartridges in the country and because of this there have been lots of development put into making the ammo for these perform well. OTOH, there are few agencies who use 10mm and nobody bothers to test ammo for this caliber anymore, so you really don't know what type of performance current loads offer.

IMHO, both the .357 Sig and 10mm are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. And their sharp recoil and muzzleblast doesn't make me like them any better. Ultimately it comes down to each individual as to what they prefer, but I don't see anything these rounds can do that the other popular calibers can't.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 2:36:44 AM EDT
I like the 180 to 200 Gn 10mm, from a 6" Brl handgun, as a deer hunting cartidge.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 2:33:36 PM EDT
10mm Thankyou! Get it in a nice S&W 610 with a non fluted cylinder and 6" barrel and hooahh!

SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:13:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 4:15:29 PM EDT by new2ar223]
Yep, the 10MM needs to be compared to a 41 Remington Magnum while the 357 Sig needs to be compared to a 357 Remington Magnum cartridge.

The 10MM is a hot cartridge with lots of recoil and muzzle flash, and lots of energy. The 357 Sig is some where between 9x19 and 357 Rem Mag cartridge.

Personally I really like the 357 Sig and have two handguns so chambered, one in a H&K USP Compact and a second in SIG P-239.

The H&K is a superior weapon, but only by a small measure.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 9:49:17 PM EDT
I agree with new2ar223 that you can't really compare the 10 and the 357. I like the fact that you can carry a Glock 20 in the back country and feel fairly secure that the cartridge will handle a black bear or mountain lion.
I think the 357 sig is a great cartridge for defense. To me, the recoil is sharp but doesn't last as long as the 40 or the 45. The 357 sig is my favorite catridge to shoot-- I have a Glock 33 and Glock 31.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 12:45:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
IMHO, both the .357 Sig and 10mm are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. And their sharp recoil and muzzleblast doesn't make me like them any better.



I would disagree. The .357Sig duplicates the .357magnum & there's no question how efficient that caliber is.

As for muzzle blast, I've not noticed any sort of problem at all. Recoil is a bit zippy though.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 12:48:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By new2ar223:
The 357 Sig is some where between 9x19 and 357 Rem Mag cartridge.
Actually, the GA Precision ammo is identical to the .357mag loadings.



The H&K is a superior weapon, but only by a small measure.
Blasphemy, sir!!!!

Link Posted: 7/18/2003 2:22:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
The .357Sig duplicates the .357magnum & there's no question how efficient that caliber is.



Go here for some good data on .357 Magnum performance.

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000179.html
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 10:20:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2003 10:21:40 PM EDT by Cerebus]
I don't see (feel) a sharp recoil with the 10mm. IMHO it's as easy to control as a .45.

It does bark a little more though.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 11:15:13 PM EDT
10mm Winchester 175gr Silvertip is one
of the few full power factory loads out there

stated at 1290fps & 649lb-ft from a 5.5" barrel

lots of energy, I always wanted a 10mm but

+P.45acp is close & .45 Super is right there
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 6:58:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:
10mm Winchester 175gr Silvertip is one
of the few full power factory loads out there
stated at 1290fps & 649lb-ft from a 5.5" barrel
lots of energy,




That makes my hand hurt just thinking about it.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 8:06:20 PM EDT
There is no pain. A Glock 20 10mm eats any ammo or critter and asks for more. The Silvertip is what I carry and is superb. If you had to carry one autoloader for urban and backwoods use AND you have large hands this the one. With a hi-cap mag thats alot of firepower in a 30 ounce package. Yes it barks but it also bites!
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 8:45:02 AM EDT
The 10mm Auto is a cartridge that can accomplish nearly any task that a handgun shooter could ask of it(short of hunting very large game).

If you need penetration and momentum, it handles bullets of up to 220 grains. Factory ammunition is readily available in 200 grain jacketed bullets which far exceed the ballistics of the hottest .45 ACP +P loads. For example, Cor Bon sells two very hot hunting loads (180 gr at 1320 fps, 200 gr at 1200 fps)

At the other end of the spectrum (if you're a high velocity fan), you can buy factory 135's that hit 1400 fps. The Accurate Arms manual lists a handload that hits 1500 fps with the same bullet.

Points to ponder:

- With lighter bullets, the 10mm will do everything the .357 Sig (or the .40 S&W) will do, at the same or higher velocities. With heavier bullets, the .357 Sig and .40 Short & Weak can't touch it.
- It will also do ALMOST everything the .45 ACP will do. It has the .45 beat by huge margins in energy, momentum, tragectory flatness, etc. The one place it lacks is the obvious: diameter. The .45 delivers a bullet that (unexpanded) has 27.5% greater sectional area. Depending on what type of bullet you use, and how they expand, this can be more or less of a factor. However, the 10mm's higher velocity in every bullet weight may ensure a higher probability of expansion.

- If you want lighter loads for practice, 180 grain 950 fps loads are readily available.

- If you don't want the heavy recoil that goes along with the oodles of power that the 10mm has on tap, that's fine. However, the cartridge remains as one of the best performing cartridges ever devised for a standard sized auto-pistol. If the recoil frightens you, go cry to someone who cares. In the world of physics (and terminal ballistics) you don't get something for nothing.

- Lets face it, using law enforcement's experience with ammunition to draw conclusions is incomplete, at best, very misleading at worst. Law enforcement agencies must choose a weapon to suit the lowest common denominator, which can be a person (male or female) who is half a foot shorter, 50 lbs lighter, and with much less upper body strength than the average American male. In addition, this person may not be very interested in training enough to become proficient with the weapon he or she is issued. Because of these reasons, the 10mm will never gain widespread use in the law enforcement communities. However, that doesn't mean that it isn't the BEST choice for someone who is willing and able to master it.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 10:48:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By showbart:
There is no pain. A Glock 20 10mm eats any ammo or critter and asks for more.



I was thinking more about the Glock 29.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 12:31:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By showbart:
There is no pain. A Glock 20 10mm eats any ammo or critter and asks for more.



I was thinking more about the Glock 29.



Hannah_Reitsch carries the 10mm Glock compact. You may want to ask her what she thinks about it, as she probably has more experience with shooting and carrying it than most of the folks here that can only rattle off what they read in gunrags or on websites.

One thing to consider that no one has bothered to think about is the size of the gun. The .40/.357Sig can be had in smaller guns, i.e. 9mm frame. The 10mm is going to be full-size. That may not make much of a difference to you, but it makes a difference to many.

If you have a .357Sig, you can swap barrels and have a .40 S&W. The .40 S&W is a short 10mm (a 10mm special if you will). So it would be safe to say you can get more power out of a 10mm than the other round (.357 Sig). I don't know how much that really matters to you.

I've never shot a .357Sig, so I can't address the caliber. I have owned and shot both the .40 and the 10mm and either one is controllable. The 10mm in full power loading has more "oomph", coming and going, as can be expected, but certainly not bothersome. A FBI-lite load is the same as a .40, so it's wasted space IMO.

I no longer own any .40s, simply because it wasn't enough of a difference over other calibers I already owned. I still own a 10mm because there was enough difference.

Check with someone who has really lived with the gun to see what they think.

Ross
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 3:02:22 PM EDT
I've always thought the 10mm would be a great carbine cartridge

too bad I can't own a MP5/10mm
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 6:45:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2003 6:51:34 AM EDT by VoodooChile]
My Glock 29 has been a great "fun gun" but I wouldn't have it as my primary carry gun for two reasons. First my Glock 30 (identical size except in .45) is more accurate. I don't know why this is but I can shoot them back to back and the 30 always shoots tighter. I have had others try as well and the results are the same.
Second, Many 29's have a problem with Failure to Eject. I sent mine back to Glock but I still get FTE once every 100-150 rounds. My 30 NEVER fails. Some say its the extractor some say its limpwristing. If I'm 245bs and cam shoot slugs out of a pistol gripped mossberg, I should be able to handle the 29 without limpwristing.
If you decide to get the 29 you should be able to get a barrel for the .357 sig. Why choose when you can have both?
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 7:43:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2003 7:46:17 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
Bob,

Go check out that link AR15fan posted, it's got some info there that might change your opinion about the .357 magnum. I must disagree as from what I have been discovering, the .357 magnum has been largely hyped due to folks like Evan Marshall. IMHO, the .357 Sig is a better caliber than the magnum, mostly because it takes advantage of new bullet designs. This cartridge loaded with a 125 gr Ranger or Gold Dot bullet looks quite a bit better than the .357 magnum 125 gr Federal that gets so much attention. But back to where we started, the .357 Sig still is no better than a 9mm using good +P ammo like the 124 gr Gold Dot. Ditto on the Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ and 147 gr standard velocity. That being the case I will take a 9mm loaded with the 147 gr Ranger that will do just as much damage and not have as much muzzle blast/flash and recoil. Personally I don't see one thing the .357 Sig can do better than the 9mm rounds I described...which is why I made the statement that it was an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 10:27:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I must disagree as from what I have been discovering, the .357 magnum has been largely hyped due to folks like Evan Marshall.
There's others who I trust who also say it's the better caliber.



IMHO, the .357 Sig is a better caliber than the magnum, mostly because it takes advantage of new bullet designs.
The .357mag would have, I would think, just as modern bullet designs as the .357Sig.


That being the case I will take a 9mm loaded with the 147 gr Ranger that will do just as much damage and not have as much muzzle blast/flash and recoil.
Too many cop reports on shooting show the 147 was/is way too weak for good effectiveness. I'm sure there's a bit of variables on those.



Link Posted: 7/22/2003 1:14:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2003 1:24:31 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]

Originally Posted By BobCole:



There's others who I trust who also say it's the better caliber.


As long as you are sure they know what they are talking about. Remember to be careful with folks like Massad Ayoob and the various gun rag writers as well. Many of them just repeat info coming from Marshall and Sanow. The sources I am quoting use good scientific principles, meaning their test results are always repeatable and then they often correlate the gel test performance to that witnessed on the street. In order to get good scientific data (which terminal ballistics is a science), make sure your sources have an understanding of and actually apply solid scientific principles.


The .357mag would have, I would think, just as modern bullet designs as the .357Sig.


Yes and no. There are several .357 magnum loads out there that use more modern bullets, but take a look at a couple of them. You can get a 125 gr version of the Remington Golden Saber and Speer Gold Dot. But these aren't full power .357 loads, rather the "mid-velocity" offering. Since the 9mm, .40, and .45 have more or less taken over as the standard law enforcement cartridges, little testing is done on the .357 anymore. In fact, I can't find any tests on the .357 magnum that were performed in the past 5-7 years. Therefore we simply do not know if the newer loads will be adequate performers or not. While the Gold Dot tends to be a good performer in other loads, we can't say for sure it will be the same in this caliber. For example, the .45 ACP 230 gr Gold Dot is an excellent performer. But the 200 gr + P Gold Dot absolutely sux. Testing is the only way to determine potential and we can't just assume a similar bullet will perform well. That's where cartridges like 9mm shine, as they get lots of testing and we have a good idea what they will do before we ever have to use to use them in a life or death situation.


Too many cop reports on shooting show the 147 was/is way too weak for good effectiveness. I'm sure there's a bit of variables on those.


Which 147 gr bullet are you speaking of? Remember, we can't make the generalization that all 147 gr bullets perform the same because they clearly do not. Most of the poor performing 147 gr loads were the Winchester Subsonics. Again, this was just a poor bullet design and that's why it wasn't effective in many cases. It had nothing to do with it's weight. The Winchester 147 gr Ranger on the other hand is a fine bullet that has been refined to the point of near perfection. Older styles of the bullet did at times suffer because it would fail to expand through layers of clothing, but the latest version does well in bare gel, 4 layers of denim and perps. Dr. Roberts has reported that his findings in gel have been consistent with the results of various California police agencies involved in actual shootings. The 147 gr Ranger is not your father's 147 gr Subsonic! LOL.

It's ultimately up to each of us to choose what we carry and why. I am not trying to argue with you, but rather steer you toward new information that might help you form an opinion. I use to be a big fan of powerful cartridges as well because I thought energy was what was important. Little did I know at the time that energy was a non-factor when it comes to rapid incapacitation. Far more important is shot placement, how deep the bullet penetrates, how much it expands and what it hits.

Now I know I am gonna catch a lot of flak here for stating that energy isn't important, but I will back this up with a simple experiment you can try at home to prove it. If energy transfer is really important, then shouldn't a target "absorbing" all that energy be moved? Get yourself a big box sometime and fill it with packed, wet newspapers. Make sure it is thick enough to stop the bullet. You might also then dampen the box itself. Sit it out in front of you and blast away at it. Note what happens. The box and newspapers if properly prepared will absorb the full amount of energy of that bullet yet it barely moves, if at all. This proves energy transfer is a myth. People are not "knocked down" from bullet hits. They either fall because they are dying or as a psychological response (conditioned) to do so. The psychological response can be removed by shooting the type of objects I mentioned so you only see what the actual energy can do.

If you still aren't convinced, try it on a side of beef sometime. Or dig up that video where the guy shoots his business partner while testing a new ballistic vest. One guy is wearing the new armor while his partner shoots him with a .308 at point blank range. The bullet was stopped and the energy was transferred to the target, yet it didn't even slightly knock the guy off balance. While this was a very stupid stunt, it does illustrate the point that energy isn't what stops a threat. Again, if energy transfer is really a component to rapid stops, then why does the energy have no effect on the object shot? Because energy transfer is another useless figure thrust upon us by those who don't know any better. So when choosing defensive ammunition, get one that penetrates to at least 12", expands robustly, is accurate and works reliably in your weapon. That is far more important than energy.

-Charging Handle
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