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Posted: 12/21/2001 6:34:46 AM EDT
It's like a kid I grew up with he had a bag of marbles but couldn't hit a thing. I think he is like alote of gun owners.
Just a thought.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 6:47:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:55:06 AM EDT
I also have taken tac pistol I & II, I am of course a master...of mediocracy.

It is all in the practice.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 7:28:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hielo:
I also have taken tac pistol I & II, I am of course a master...of mediocracy.

It is all in the practice.

I think you do just great, hielo, for a fellow who's brain is in a jar somewhere! (I need not worry about dying a genius!) I feel lucky and was blessed with good eyes. I was always able to make the "impossible" shot, especially in my younger years. I still like going to the range, watching someone scattering holes all over the paper, then borrowing their gun, cutting a nice "cloverleaf", then handing the gun back to them. (at least they know the gun is capable)
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 9:00:59 AM EDT
So what is your definition of being able to shoot it? Slowfire is meaningless. Give a little kid enough time, and enough rds, and he can get the hits. If you have all day in which to get a hit, why can't you just walk up to the target and use a hatchet? So SPEED is what ranks the shottists, preferably also speed of draw and repeat hits, from concealment, with a truly powerful load, and a practical carry gun and rig, ie, lw, compact, IWB and covered with just a tucked in shirt. Such gear can always be worn, and only if it is always worn is it likely to be present when it is needed. Insurance policies are 24-7 for a reason. No one would buy them if they were only in force part of the time. A gun is supposed to be insurance against being attacked. If all it is to you is a remote control paper punch, that purpose can be served by a sling shot. What I want in a partner is a man who (on a PACT timer) can react, draw from concealment, use an 800+ ft lb load, and double tap 2 10" chest circles, at 10 ft, 3 ft apart, in 2 seconds or less. Such a man is worth having along. Before you say that such ammo isn't controlable, testfire some of the new prefrags. 70 grs at 2300 fps has no more recoil than does 230 grs at 800fps, and the latter is certainly controlable enough in an alloy Commander.
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 11:50:13 AM EDT
Yes, I can hit the target. I may not be the fastest or can shoot tiny groups. But I hit where I'm aiming. I Also know my limits and the whole reason for practicing is to become better.
Hopefully this year I'll be able attend a basic pistol And defensive pistol class.
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 10:00:35 PM EDT
Ok, just as long as you understand that better means faster, not further or smaller. DOJ Crime Survey, FBI UCR, and NRA columns show that most attacks are not made with guns. That means that you probably can't justify firing from more than 10 ft away. Also, the UCR and major PD reports show that over half of the shootings are from 10 ft or less. So, the odds are at least 3 to 1 that you will fire at 10 ft or less, and the odds are something like 10 to one that you will fire at 20 ft or less, and 20 to 1 that it won't be beyond 30 ft. So why bother practicing beyond 10 ft until you are truly lightning fast at that range? Then work on the 10-20 ft gap, etc. Being too slow is every bit as bad as missing. A hit or many hits, often fail to stop the guy, particularly with the sort of ammo that most people use. Just being fast enough to get the gun out and ready in time for the guy to see it (and stop his attack) has saved me a lot of hassle twice now. Seeing the attack coming and having my gun in hand saved me on two other occasions, too. If you know that you are slow on the draw, slow on getting repeat hits, use a feeble load, can't fight with your hands and feet, etc, you will probably "show steel" too soon, and get into legal trouble.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 5:55:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2001 5:57:17 AM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 3:03:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:
All the practice in the world won't help you if your practicing the wrong technique. There are basic principles that have to be mastered before you can build your speed.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=78439
I'm to lazy to type it out again.



Striker,
Thankyou for this link. I have problems with all of my handguns shooting to the left. I'm going to try your advise. I've been practicing dryfiring using the techniques you have described. I do have a couple of questions for you. I have had no formal training, but have shot handguns all my life(probably wrong!), so consider me an idiot. I started out with my dad's S&W .22jet, with his helping hands, when I was six. I would like to start my sons off on the right foot or hand in this case. So, any advice you can give me would greatly be appreciatied.

With my Beretta 92fs, your grip feels pretty good, and I think it is going to correct my drifting slightly left groups. For my Makarov, the grip feels uncomfortable. I'm afraid my weak thumb is going to be removed(or at least permanently altered) by the slide if I place it in the V of my stong hand. There seems to be barely enough room. If I'm off a little, look out! With my Mak, I have had great groups, and the adjustable sights have corrected the leftest problems, but I would like to use the same grip all the time so I'm not getting confused.

My next question is how does this grip work with hard recoiling handguns? I seem to have the most "left drift" with my magnum caliber handguns. It seems like I barely have a grip on it at all(I know, that's what it's supposed to be). I'm not worried about the 9mm's or even the .357mag, but my .44mag with full house grizzly loads could be interesting. I feel like I have got to get a good handle on that grip before I let loose. Should I use the same grip with single actions? What should I do if using only one hand? Still concentrate on front and rear pressure only?

Thanks again for the advice. Oh, and I'm one of those with too many marbles, but there are one or two that I know well.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 3:37:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2001 3:43:32 PM EDT by jett3]
I say baloney. Since most attacks are at 6 ft and less, you will have at most 1 second in which to do something worthwhile, before pure luck takes over and determines the result. You need virtually no "technique" at all to hit the chest at 6 ft, and any time lost trying to do anything other than hit as swiftly and repeatedlly as possible, preferably to the head,is a bad idea. REALLY powerful rds to the chest usually do suffice, however. Something like the RBCD 90grain 45 prefrag, at 2000 fps, and 800 ft lbs of energy is pretty hard to just "shrug off", especially if a truly swift "hammer" of 2 shots impact the chest (like 1/4 sec apart, or less). While certain things DO have to be practiced, they relate to not shooting yourself as you learn to draw (from concealment) with the requisite amount of speed. I suggest an electronic shooting timer, so that you can quit KIDDING yourself about how fast you are, and some IDPA matches. Learn to make primer-powered wax ammo for cheap, safe, quiet practice indoors. Then a screwup results in your having a MASSIVE blood blister on your leg, as vs having no leg at all! :-) Whatever your choice of handgun, get a .22 "trainer" just like it. If a gun doesn't have such an "understudy", that is reason to reject it as a carry gun, at least, that is so until you are very well skilled.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 3:54:46 PM EDT
"Ain't no second place winner in a gunfight".......aim quick, aim steady and most important AIM TO WIN
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 6:54:39 AM EDT
jett3 an SGB,

You all state very sound practice principles. Forgive me if this has been said, but it doesn't hurt to truly spend the $ for a quality concealed weapon vs. your favorite weapon. I, most recently, picked up a SA V-10. The difference in my ability to quickly double-tap was amazing. The balance and ported barrel, the way it fit my hand? Overall quality of the firearm made much more difference than I would have thought. My Ruger p90 is a great .45, but I can shoot near perfect at 10 - 25 yds with the Springfield, whereas with the Ruger I was forced to concentrate more and shoot slower to get great results, but not nearly so perfect as the Springfield.

My .02 cents. Buy a GREAT weapon for defense, and practice with it. I equate it with buying tires...sure, cheap tires are cheap, but do you want you and your family relying on retreads or nice new more expensive tires?
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 6:55:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 8:55:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2002 8:56:27 PM EDT by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Backup:
It's like a kid I grew up with he had a bag of marbles but couldn't hit a thing. I think he is like alote of gun owners.
Just a thought.

Nice. Third post is an insult.

Edited because I forgot the troll symbol.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 10:53:09 AM EDT
It's a bad idea to "trap" your strong hand's thumb under that of the weak hand, altho it's better than having the thumb back by the hammer. It's best to just extend the weak side thumb along side that of the strong hand. Pressure with the thumb just helps you flinch even worse, and it can lead to malfunctions. The gun that is too large or heavy for constant concealed carry is no defensive gun. Comps are a bad idea on a carry gun, because a minor blow will misalign the comp with the bore, creating a condition which makes the gun dangerous to fire. Also, when firing from the hip, you have to remember to twist the gun outwards, or get a nice face full of hot gases. You aren't likely to remember this when fighting at grappling distances. I favor a simple muzzlewt, (4 ozs) hung onto a Commander barrel, which protrudes 1" out of the front of a Defender slide. With an alloy frame, this setup weighs no more than the 28 ozs of an alloy Commander with a steel beavertail (and mine using the alloy one) and when both are using alloy mainspring housings. Do nearly all of your practicing with a steel Commander, and the alloy gun will last forever.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 5:22:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 10:03:49 PM EDT
ANY downward pressure just worsens how far off one jerks the muzzle when he flinches. It is also not wise to have the weak thumb interfering with the swiftest possible manipulation of the safety. Given the fluid dynamics of any lethal force encounter, and the perils of a cocked SA pistol, you need to get that safety back "ON" at the first sign that you won't actually be firing, yet be ready to disengage again and fire in less than a heartbeat. Inadvertent, often completely UNNOTICED pressure by the thumb on the side of the slide, can cause a variety of malfunctions.
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