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Posted: 6/13/2003 11:54:25 AM EDT
I have decided for a variety of reasons, mainly the issue of KB's in .40 cal Glocks, to get rid of my Glock 22 for something else. At this time I am leaning toward replacing it with a 9mm. I have nothing against the Glock pistols, but I just no longer feel comfortable with .40 cal chambered Glocks. When I am not confident or comfortable in a platform it goes bye-bye. And this Glock is going one way or another, so the issue is what will replace it?

I am looking at several types and would just like some input on the guns. First and foremost is out of the box reliability. It's gotta function. I also want something that isn't prone to breakage. Accuracy, ergonomics, pointability and finish are also important considerations. Basically, I want the best quality 9mm that can be had without resorting to something exotic. So, with that criteria, which of the following choices would you pick? I will list them in the order that I am currently rating them.....feel free to sway my opinion:

1. Glock 17/19 - the 9mm Glocks don't seem to suffer from the KB issues like their .40 cal brothers. Also, proven reliability and minimal maintenance needs.

2. H&K USP full size - Not pretty, but well built with serious use in mind. Accurate, reliable, good finish and durable. The down side is it's kinda big, has large grips and magazine cost is excessively high.

3. Browning Hi-Power Mark III - Great handling, accurate, not prone to breaking parts, quality high caps available at low cost. Seems some need a bit of tweaking to make them as reliable outta the box as the Glock, H&K or Sig.

4. CZ-75 - Inexpensive but well made, accurate, reliable outta the box, good triggers, feels good in the hand and also not prone to breakage.

5. Sig Sauer P226 - Very good feel, reliable, I like the sights, great DA/SA trigger and very accurate. The only dislikes are that they often do get criticized for parts breakage and a finish which wears/rusts easily.

6. Beretta 92FS - This pistol seems to be either loved or hated. Most say it is very reliable and accurate. But I also hear some question it's reliability, it's finish, it's durability and many hate it's trigger and large grips.

7. Springfield XD - This gun seems to be a winner with good accuracy and reliability. Many compare it to the Glock. But this gun is relatively new to the market and therefore hasn't earned enough of my trust to rank it higher at the moment. But good reports might change my opinion as well as the test of time.

As of right now I am only considering these types...either because I already have other types not mentioned or I dislike them. I have no interest in compact models and am looking for a good full size (duty size) platform. I looked forever before posting this and couldn't ever find a way of posting a poll, so I hope this will suffice. Either support my opinions or change my mind!

Thanks,

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:59:21 AM EDT
I would have to say the Beretta, HK, or Sig. If you aren't comfortable carrying a cocked and locked pistol then stay away from the Hi-Power.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:04:27 PM EDT
I would go with the H&K

The sig would be my second choice.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:43:02 PM EDT
SIG P226
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:53:59 PM EDT
You can't really go wrong with any you have listed....

personally , I would go Browning or CZ..

my 2 cents


t
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:59:19 PM EDT
I'm looking to buy a CZ-75 for all the reasons you mention...and there are lots of variants...AND they are about 40% cheaper the HK - Sig etc.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:31:34 PM EDT
SIG 226 or HK USP
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:35:59 PM EDT
Tough call. With the exception of the Springfield, I own each of the pistols considered and I enjoy and would carry each and every one in a heartbeat. However, the top two would be either the USP or SiG.

The HK's modular platform is fairly handy if you need to reconfigure, but the SiG's high capacity magazines are quite a bit cheaper.

Incidentally, CDNN has a good price on stainless USP9s right now: $599.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:38:28 PM EDT
Well, you are already familiar with Glocks. I have had at least 5 G17s and they are all the same. One of the few, if not the only, gun that I will buy used without checking it out first. Brute simple, reliable, little maintainance, and yes, ugly. I don't mind an ugly gun that works this well . I know that I can leave it in the car at -20 degrees and if I need it it will perform - and my hand won't stick to it - haha.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:41:08 PM EDT
USP, followed by Sig.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:05:01 PM EDT
The Browning will fit your hand like nothing else, and should be as reliable if not moreso than any of the others. I have a FEG knockoff, and it makes me itch to buy the real thing... especially once you remove the mag safety for a more crisp trigger.

You couldn't be faulted for the Glock, though... especially since you're already familiar with the platform.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:03:51 PM EDT
Sig 226
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:55:32 AM EDT
Glock and Beretta .

Get both
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 2:33:07 PM EDT
The Glock 19 is hard to beat. It is a nice little package. I've been thinking about a SIG 226 or 228, as I sometimes get tired of the Glock trigger.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 3:05:30 PM EDT
There is a Glock 22 or 23 in the holster of every cop in Phoenix. Do you think they are scared of the next round being a KB? The whole KB thing is way overblown.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 4:47:47 PM EDT
I'd go with either the CZ-75 or the Hi-Power. I like the USP, but prefer metal guns. I hate Sigs (for many reasons).
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:37:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
There is a Glock 22 or 23 in the holster of every cop in Phoenix. Do you think they are scared of the next round being a KB? The whole KB thing is way overblown.



No offense, but that's because glock is usually the low bid when departments choose their weapons. To them, the bottom line is all that matters, not which is the best pistol.
That's why Tucson PD went with them, that and the armorer hated HK's and was a glock nut.
I'd take a SIG myself.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:47:54 PM EDT
If I thought the issue was overblown, I wouldn't be considering trading off a gun I otherwise love. The truth is, the .40 cal Glocks KB at a rate high enough to make me concerned. One solution some have recommended to me is getting an aftermarket barrel for the G22, such as a Bar-Sto. It seems that the "un-supported" Glock barrel is where the problem lies. Would a quality replacement barrel be a possible solution? If this will greatly reduce the chance of a KB I would consider getting and installing one of these and just keeping the gun I have. It would have to help accuracy as well. What do you folks think? Thanks for all the recommendations so far.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:52:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 8:54:31 PM EDT by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
If I thought the issue was overblown, I wouldn't be considering trading off a gun I otherwise love. The truth is, the .40 cal Glocks KB at a rate high enough to make me concerned. One solution some have recommended to me is getting an aftermarket barrel for the G22, such as a Bar-Sto. It seems that the "un-supported" Glock barrel is where the problem lies. Would a quality replacement barrel be a possible solution? If this will greatly reduce the chance of a KB I would consider getting and installing one of these and just keeping the gun I have. It would have to help accuracy as well. What do you folks think? Thanks for all the recommendations so far.

-Charging Handle



Honestly, my first handgun was a Glock. I have never regretted trading it. You can always buy one again down the road if you miss it (my guess is that you won't). I actually still own a Glock 21, but its not my favorite handgun.

If you want to stay with 9mm, then I'd at least try moving over to the XD or CZ. That way your cost is minimized. As noted above, I like the CZ myself. I'd jump on an XD though if more mag options were available (without having to perform some kind of conversion). Even though the XD is polymer, it has a nice feel to it.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 10:38:26 AM EDT
You're right. Glock 22's are complete pieces of junk. What generation is yours and how much do you want for it?

If you're going to go throught with that, I would go with the H&K. That's what I carried before I retired because:

1. During that time window, the H&K was the most user firendly light mountable 9mm handgun on the market. For SWAT purposes, a light is as critical on the gun as a bullet is in it's chamber.

2. In my hands, the 9mm USP was a tack driver - but that's just me. "Your mileage may vary?"

3. I'm ALWAYS comfortable trusting my life to H&K anything.

4. I was pretty certain I would end up retired with lots of 9mm ammo, and free bullets are hard to ignore.

4. I sold every Sig I ever owned. I don't have a specific criticism, I just don't care for them all that much. AND, in earlier days, SEAL's had problems with them. I don't like the way they (Sig's) feel (personal preference). Some guys love 'em. My policy (and my agency's policy USED to be - not any more) "Your life - your gun, you pick it." Those days are gone. And so am I.

If you're really going to dump that G-22, and it's a third generation - email me. Good luck in your quest.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 3:40:31 PM EDT
If the glock worked well for you, a 19 or 17 may be your best bet. I cannot shoot them, grip angle thing. The cz is awsome quality and not just for its price. I have one with a single action 75b and its great in my book. large/heavy for carry. I have had most of the others and also like the sig225. If you need to carry the pistol daily and hit well with glock pistols, 19. imho.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 6:01:00 PM EDT
I have a G19, SIG p239 9mm, beretta 92fs, and a HK USP9f.

I say USP all the way. The only problem is, like you said, the magazine cost is very high.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 6:07:44 PM EDT
cz-75 is on my list.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:55:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 11:02:47 AM EDT by chuckhammer]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

5. Sig Sauer P226 - Very good feel, reliable, I like the sights, great DA/SA trigger and very accurate. The only dislikes are that they often do get criticized for parts breakage and a finish which wears/rusts easily.



The newer P226 models use a milled stainless slide. It was the older, stamped and blued slides that rusted easily. I have first hand experience with that which is why I now own the milled stainless type. As far as breakage goes, the only problems I remember hearing about occured after thousands of rounds, if not tens of thousands of rounds. I'd be intereted to see what you've read about this being a problem. The finish on the new stainless slides does wear a bit faster than expected but not quite as bad as the old blued ones. The anodizing on the frame is first-rate. The pre-ban mags can be found NIB as low as $60 per (CDNN a few months ago). You can still find the factory 20rd SWAT mags for ~$125.

I also like it because the decocker is on the frame rather than the slide (92G) and because there is no safety (92FS). H&K makes a USP variant with a frame-mounted decocker-only lever.

To me, it would be between the P226 and the USP.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:53:18 AM EDT
Glock 17.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 5:02:24 PM EDT
Firstly let me say that the Glock KB issues are largely overblown on the net. That being said, I still do not like the Glock pistols.

There are so many good 9mm pistols out there. I am fond of the Beretta 92, the Sig P226 and the Walther P99.

The Walther is compact and light and holds a lot of ammo if you get hicaps. (They are expensive, but they are out there.)

The Sig P226 is one of the finest pistols ever made. Ditto the Beretta. I carry the Beretta 92 because it fits my hands superbly and you can get hicaps for it. I own 2 Beretta 92's.

I am going to buy a Sig P226 at some point in the future as well. Excellent pistols.

The HK USP is a good gun too, as is the CZ though I have no personal experience with the CZ75.

You owe it to yourself to examine a Walther P99 if you can, as they are the most pleasant suprise I have come across. I bought one as a gift for a friend, but after testing it on the range I decided to keep the gun and buy him something else.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 6:50:07 PM EDT

The pre-ban mags can be found NIB as low as $60 per (CDNN a few months ago).

The CDNN magazines are not new. They are advertised as "like new." I bought three awhile back.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:40:21 AM EDT
I don't care for the Glocks in .40, I believe the 17 and the 19 are the best ones they make, and own one of each. This is what I'd do.

Regarding your other choices, I own or have owned each of them when I was going through my "collect wondernines" period. Except for the XD, which I really like, and which is going to be my next purchase.

Here are my thoughs on the others:
P226: Good feeling gun but the usual SIG gripes apply - weird sights, awful DA pull, high bore axis, flip-flopped decocker/slide catch. Mine was fairly accurate, nothing special. Also tended to rust easily. Really too big for CCW.

92FS: Big in the hand but feels good to shoot. No dovetail front sight on the standard 92FS. $40 hicaps. Finish is more durable than most, except the barrel. Very reliable, fairly accurate, trigger is OK and can easily be improved. Much too big for CCW.

HK USP:Pretty reliable and accurate, manual safety a plus. Trigger pull is pretty nasty. Pricey hicaps. Finish is durable. Ergonomics didn't work for me. Much too big for CCW.

CZ-75: Good price, and cheap hicaps. Accurate and reliable, baked on finish is tough. Excellent ergonomics (but trigger reach is too long). Good trigger. Heavier than the alloy/plastic guns though. Sights could stand improving. Tiny ejection port makes clearing jams difficult.

BHP: Grip shape is very nice, gun is pretty compact for what it is. Accurate enough, but reliability with hollowpoints may be problematic. Mag safety is detrimental to trigger pull but easily removed. Trigger is difficult to work on. Factory sights have the 3-bar system, not my favorite. Aftermarket safety a requirement for me. Some folks get hammer bite. Cheap hicaps, and fits the 1911 holsters. IMHO, a somewhat dated design that can't quite compete with the above guns.

Spfld XD: Has been around for a few years under HS2000 marque. Accurate, reliable, not too expensive. Can use 92FS hicaps. Truly ambi mag release. Lots of nice features: rail, LCI, cocking indicator, steel trigger, can use SIG sights, etc. Bore axis low but not as low as Glock. Grip safety restricts slide movement but will still allow a press check. The only thing I don't like is the long trigger reset. Also lack of an aftermarket is a minor drawback. On the whole, I like it very much.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:07:06 PM EDT
Beretta 92. What do you mean the grip is big? It's no bigger than a 226. I have small hands and the grip feel great. Not reliable? Tell that to the US Military. For the price a standard 92 can't be beat. A new 226 will cost $100 more than a new 92. Hi-caps for the 92 is also cheaper and 17rnd MecGar mags are available as well.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:31:56 PM EDT

Hi-caps for the 92 is also cheaper

I don't know where you shop, but pre-ban P226 magazines are roughly the same cost as pre-ban Beretta 92/M9 magazines. FACTORY magazines.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:55:50 PM EDT
Greetings,

For CCW, a Glock 19 or a Sig 228. For more compact, a Glock 26. Loaded with Corbons.

The sight radius has no effect on the gun's accuracy, only a bit more concentration on sight alignment.

Better yet, one of each. :D
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:00:41 PM EDT
The Glock 17/19 can be a bit more ammo sensitive with regard to reloads. Some dies do not go down the base of the brass far enough and will cause a jam in the chamber that the feeble will not be able to clear.

I use a case gauge on all 9mm rounds. A round that will not chamber in a Glock will always chamber in a Sig. Glocks have tight chambers.

I figure that is a lot of the reason that Glock mandated factory loaded ammunition.

Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:39:20 PM EDT
Fuck Glock and their support of 'ballistic fingerprinting'.

john.penguinweb.net/data/firearms/glock.shtml

Go ahead and spend your money with those assholes.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:15:53 PM EDT
Sig produces one of the finest handguns on the market, great triggers and sight systems, no wonder the Feds use them so much.

Now step up to H&K's level of performance, the most robust handguns on the market. I have seen +P+ ammo blow a Sig magizine out of the gun never to fit again while the person firing an H&K continue to hit 10 ring with the same ammo(me vs my brother)during the contest.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 12:26:20 AM EDT
If you want to keep the Glock, I would just drop in a KKM Precision replacement barrel and perhaps a 20# recoil spring and that's that.

The KB problem may be the combination of both the unsupported chamber and the Glock's tendency to fire out of battery. The aftermarket barrel addresses the first problem, the heavier recoil spring addresses the second problem.

The drawback to all this is the tighter and better supported chamber may make it more finicky as to what you feed it and you certainly have to keep it cleaner.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:11:19 AM EDT
I'm voting SIG 226.

Mine has never broken on me, nor rusted either. I'm also more accurate with it, than I am with any of my other handguns. It fits my hand better than any of the others, also.

Get one in stainless if corrosion is a major concern.


Link Posted: 6/19/2003 10:45:33 AM EDT
Like Jim_Dandy, I have all but the Springfield. All are well made. Find and go with "the best fit" if money is not a problem. If you are on a budget, and it fits your hand, I'd recomend the CZ. I have a number of CZ's and all work as designed.
VF
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:07:57 PM EDT
I'm a big 9mm fan, and up until yesterday I'd say go with the Beretta for the reasons you'd already stated. However, the trigger is heavy from the factory but a Wolff conversion ($15) fixed that on mine.

I shot, for the first time, an XD9 yesterday - side by side with a Glock 17 and my 92FS. I'd pick the XD9 anyday over the Glock 17. I have small hands, and am particular about how balanced a gun feels in my hand. The XD9 was certainly nice to hold and the sight picture is much better than the Glock 17's factory sights. I was never really happy with the balance of my 92FS but everyone needs a reliable truck of a gun and that, the 92FS certainly is.

Shooting it along with my 92FS highlights how far along DA's have come. The XD9's DA-only trigger is silky, whereas the Beretta's 1st shot DA pull is heavy. I wished at that point that my 92FS had the trigger like the XD9. Alas, it doesn't, and I may have to pony up $499 for the XD9.

I really liked the XD9, couldn't you tell? BTW - the XD9 that I shot was a rental and was a little beat up. However, it never missed a beat and felt solidly built. The lady behind the counter says that little guy (referring to the XD) is a favorite amongst renters and gets a lot of use daily.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 6:42:35 PM EDT
When I worked at the Springfield booth at the Ducks Unlimited show I got the opportunity to shoot every model of XD they had, and I was very impressed with them. Even with its relatively unproven track record I will choose it over any Glock because of its feel and features.

My biggest problem now is deciding which gun to part with to acquire an XD.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:07:27 PM EDT
FN has a new decocker version of the BHP though I haven't tried it.
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