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Posted: 6/10/2003 5:54:29 PM EDT
I am looking to buy one or the other. I have pretty much decided (at least for tonight - tomorrow I may be undecided again) on S&W .40 cal, but still tend to flip flop from time to time about .45. This would be for carry purposes, so that was the reason for the .40 decision.

With that said, trying to stay within my budget, I can buy either a NEW Glock 23 or a USED HK USP.

Thoughts? Expeirence? Advice?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:05:27 PM EDT
Forgot to metion two things:

1) Used HK is supposed to be a LE trade in. Supposedly in good shape. I figured if I had to buy used, I would prefer to do so from someone whose life relied on it. I figured this would mean it had been kept and maintained possibly to a better degree than if it was just someone's plinker.

2) I am trying to assess total cost of ownership. Price on NEW Glock is same as used HK so weapon cost is the samee. This isn't that big of a deal, but I would like to try and grap a few extra mags (total of 5), etc.

I am still flipflopping on .40 vs .45. Damn it.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:09:04 PM EDT
USP.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:58:48 PM EDT
Gunbert - Thanks, but one question. Why?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:17:03 PM EDT
AHHH..I see the mysterious G23 kaBOOM saga brewing again.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:21:46 PM EDT
I would get the H&K USP. I like the USP trigger better.

Won't it be great next year when you can get cheap hi-caps for both?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:29:39 PM EDT
Wouldn't be surprised if it's a LE trade in from Tucson PD. Tucson was the largest single users of USPs in the country. About 2 years ago they started phasing them out for Glocks as their budget allowed. Tucson complained about parts breakage related to the safety and poor support from HK USA.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:30:37 PM EDT
I hate the ergonomics of the Glocks. I also hate the aesthetics. I also hate their position on ballistic fingerprinting.

I love the feel of H&K's and Sigs....German pistol guy I guess. Austria is close but not quite right...

I carry the USP40 compact daily. The USP40 fullsize was my first gun the USP40 compact was my second.

If the Glock feels better in your hand you may want to shoot them both first. Find a range that rents one of each if you can.

I would go with H&K every time without fail. Unless there is some glaring flaw.....
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:43:01 PM EDT
Kaboom? I read something on here about the Glocks in caliber of (my) choice, the .40, having some 'potential' problems, but I never saw anything specific to what the problem was and no definative evidence. Seemed subjective and a matter of personal opionion/expeirence.

Without opening up the proverbial can of worms, would anyone like to elaborate on the 'kaboom' theory?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 8:29:59 PM EDT
I would get the HK.
In .45 if at all possible.
I have two USP's in .45 and absolutely love them. They are by far the best pistols I have owned, and I've owned many. I have never had a failure of any kind, it eats any ammo I feed it, it fits my hand like a glove, it is rugged, reliable and is as accurate out of the box as some custom 1911's.
As for glocks, I have had several and sold them all. I never liked the trigger and how it fit in my hand. On top of that, glock supports the anti RKBA position of ballistic fingerprinting.
If that's not enough, they have a nasty habit of going KABOOM !!!!
This is just one of many threads here regarding this subject.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=187792&w=searchPop

Bottom line, get the HK.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 8:35:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Bottom line, get the HK.



In case you missed the punchline.....
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 8:39:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 8:41:37 PM EDT by kingcleophus]
I would get the Glock. I don't like the rough feel of the grit on the grip. Makes my skin chaff and get red with light use..just doesn't feel good to me(I have one of the first USP9's;perhaps the grip surface has been modified on the newer units, don't know).
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 9:42:53 PM EDT
HK has exposed hammer, double strike capability, etc. You can carry decocked, cocked and locked, decocked and locked, etc.

Glocks, OTOH, just feel like light double action. They participated WITH THE BATFE in a "pilot project" wherein they would scan fired casings into a ballistic fingerprinting database. This is according to the ATF. Is that the kind of company that you want to support?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:52:09 PM EDT
I owned a Glock 30 when I bought my USP Compact S/S in .45acp. After I saw how much more accurate the H&K was/is, I sold the Glock.

Now, with Glock's support of BF, who'd want to buy a NIB one?

The cocked and locked is a bonus as is the double strike. Can't do that in a Glock.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 4:35:33 AM EDT
I own a USP40 full size, a 45 compact, and a 45 tactical.

Shoot both. You'll buy the HK.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 2:03:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 2:05:12 PM EDT by NoCompromise]
I went the used USP route and I don't regret it one bit. I got 2 usp40 compacts 1 9mm comact, 9mm fulls ize, a p7m8. mine have been flawless for thoudands of rounds. I also recently bought a used tactical and it is just fantastic.

a friend of mine went the glock route, and even though it is a great gun, by the time we shoot 150 rounds his trigger finger hurts. for some reason when we shoot it it feels like it snaps back at you. that trigger safety really sucks. it gets so bad that midway through the session it affects his groups big time. I have seen a guy shoot an awesome group with a glock(looked like a 17) but he would shoot a round like every 5 minutes. With my USP's I just shoot away and they are always right on.

By the way, I also have a 93 USP and the sharp grips don't botther me. It is the one I shoot the most and I am dead on with it up to 100 yards. I can also hit a man size target at 200 yards within 3 rounds. on my other newer ones the grips are more rounded off, so its no longer an issue for guys with sensitive hands.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 2:32:06 PM EDT
To everyone who has responded - thank you very much.

I was originally thinking of going with the Glock, simply because its new and I like to think of stuff as 'mine' as opposed to used belonging to someone else.

However, I am now rethinking things. I am starting to lean towards the HK. Regarding .40 vs .45, seems like the kaBOOM issue might have had something to do with lead rounds, but I now have some reservations on the .40. I might go with the .45 now.

To quote Mark Martin, "I don't know. I just don't know."
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 3:02:07 PM EDT
Just one more positive for the H&K's....as many above I too have had my share of each...and have always...ALWAYS enjoyed the H&K's more...at the moment I've got three USP's..a .45 fullsize,a .357sig compact and a 9mm fullsize..oh, and I've also still got one more Glock 22 in there somewhere...just kidding it's a dang fine handgun aswell. But my preference is H&K. And if you get it and for some reason don't like the way the grip feels you can always put a Hogue Handball grip on.....Glock is a really cool gun but the H&K just offers things to me that make a significant difference, the main one being a hammer, the second is an actual safety that also works as a decocker. As far as a .45acp or a .40s&w...I like both. But one bonus you can get with a .40s&w is that you can also buy a .357sig barrel and basicly have two guns...both calibers use the same magazine...but you can also do the same in .45acp.,you can get a .400cor-bon barrel and again both calibers use the same magazines....Decisions,decisions,decisions!! Good luck!! But either way, be safe and be-aware!! Russell
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 3:03:07 PM EDT
I just traded off my G22 for a new Hk Elite. It is just the best handgun I have ever owned/shot, period. Sure it was a bunch of money, but I seem to be in the mode of "buy less but better quality". I like mine!
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 3:05:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 3:06:42 PM EDT by Dredd308]
thompsondd,
Either the .40 or the 45 are very good rounds. You cant go wrong.

The USP 45 is a bigger gun. (ie. harder to conceal)

If the ban lifts, you can get higher cap mags for the 40.


I think I need to go with the standard ARFcom answer....... GET BOTH!

Link Posted: 6/11/2003 3:35:32 PM EDT
I'm a Glock guy now and own six of them. I'm a strong believer in finding something and sticking to it. I won't be fumbling for controls or levers because Glocks are all I own, shoot and know. The same should go for you if you choose a USP. I've tried the USP and it just didn't work for me in IDPA. The double action trigger is one of the worst out there. Yes, you can carry cocked and locked but you will sometimes accidently decock a variant one under pressure. I strongly recommend that if you intend to carry cocked and locked that you go with the variant 10 which elliminates the decock. USP shooters also drop mags by accident all the time in IDPA. The reason is that under recoil the fingers are against the mag release and it gets pushed down.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 4:08:53 PM EDT
H&K...

I have fired many rounds, factory and reloads, in both H&K & Glock in 9x19, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, & 45 ACP.

Glocks are ammo sensitive/ H&K's are not.

H&K handles +P+++.

45 ACP is my choice.

I like H&K;

1. Expert
2. Tactical
3. Compact
4. Full Size

Always add Uncle Mikes fits all grip, $6 in small, medium, large.

Try one...you will like it!
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:46:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 8:51:39 PM EDT by NoCompromise]

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
USP shooters also drop mags by accident all the time in IDPA. The reason is that under recoil the fingers are against the mag release and it gets pushed down.



I haven never seen that happen. the only way that could happen is if you didnt have a grip on your handgun. One way that you could lose a mag is ig you stuff your gun in your pants and press down. the waistband of your pant can push the mag release, but never while holding the gun. your fingers are under the mag release, actually preventing it from being pressed down. nothing is on it while you are gripping it. I'm pretty close to raising the BS flag on this one.. but i'll let it slide

one more thing. the trigger gets better the more you use it. I always put the round of my Double action shot on the target with no problems.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:58:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
..... I won't be fumbling for controls or levers because Glocks are all I own, shoot and know.



Why do Glockaholics always say this? I keep reading it and it makes no sense. My HKs, Sigs, and Rugers are all decockers. I just pull it and shoot. Where does the 'fumbling' come in?

I suppose that Glock's support of BF doesn't matter, huh?
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 9:00:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kingcleophus:
I would get the Glock. .

And show your support for ballistic fingerprinting?
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 10:10:48 PM EDT
I seriously liked Glock but the ones I like are the ONLY ones I own right now. I'm not going to buy anymore pistols from Glock before they start getting rid of these BF shit out of their business.

If there was no such BF BS, I wouldn't think twice about getting a Glock. It never jams unless the operator limp wrists. You don't have to clean if often. Some don't like its safe-action (constant trigger pull) but I personally love it.

Also another thing to point out is if you are going to shoot 9mm, I say definetely go with Glock. For .45 ACP, it just seems H&K is a better choice. That's what I felt after handling both of them. (handled Glock 21 and H&K USP Tact)

Have you considered SIG yet?
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 11:14:41 PM EDT
Before all the BF nonsense, I went with the glock. I shoot action pistol matches (IPSC/USPSA, Steel, some IDPA), and the glock is very popular. In fact it is second only to all the 1911's and varients.

The glock has a very low bore axis, so it makes it easier to control when rapid firing. The HK has a very high bore axis so you have to muscle it more to control muzzle flip when rapid firing. For this reason you don't see many HK's in competition.

I also like my mag release on the side, ala american style controls. The euros have funny ideas about there to put their controls, but that's my opinion of course.

Get whatever you shoot better. I buy something because it works for me, not because of politics.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 12:26:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
I buy something because it works for me, not because of politics.



Isn't that what Glock is counting on? (Well, that, and the fact that LEOs probably DO buy based on politics)
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 12:58:53 AM EDT
Well I guess if you look hard enough you can find a reason to boycott anything. I guess you can say don't buy HK because of the German thing (UN nonsense regarding france, germany, and russia).

If I worried about every reason not to buy a product because the company supports this, or their CEO said that, is a subsidiary of whatnot. Were would that leave me?

When I buy something, I want it to work, and suit my needs. My first priority is not if it's politically correct.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 1:14:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
Well I guess if you look hard enough you can find a reason to boycott anything. I guess you can say don't buy HK because of the German thing (UN nonsense regarding france, germany, and russia).

If I worried about every reason not to buy a product because the company supports this, or their CEO said that, is a subsidiary of whatnot. Were would that leave me?

When I buy something, I want it to work, and suit my needs. My first priority is not if it's politically correct.



Point well taken. However, this is not an issue of politcal correctness. This is an issue of Glock scanning a casing from your gun into a database. It's not like we're simply talking about political views. We're talking about the BATFE coming out and admitting that Glock is scanning cases into a database for them.

Do you think that as long as you're not a criminal that you don't have anything to worry about? Or do you not mind having the cops come to your work and arrest you and take your gun for "further testing" because it showed up as one of 10 possible matches in some second-rate database search? As for me, I think I would rather avoid the hassle. To each their own, though, I'm just trying to warn the uninformed.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 4:20:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 4:51:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoCompromise:

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
USP shooters also drop mags by accident all the time in IDPA. The reason is that under recoil the fingers are against the mag release and it gets pushed down.



I haven never seen that happen. the only way that could happen is if you didnt have a grip on your handgun.

your fingers are under the mag release, actually preventing it from being pressed down. nothing is on it while you are gripping it. I'm pretty close to raising the BS flag on this one.. but i'll let it slide




I have to call BS also innocent_bystander, When you grip a USP your fingers lock under the mag release. There in NO WAY to drop the mag by mistake. I've my full sized 40, and my compact 45 for IDPA, and have never dropped a mag, OR decocked the gun under stress.

I think too many people have heard too many "it happened to a friend" stories. And pass it along like the gospel.

Link Posted: 6/12/2003 5:00:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
I also like my mag release on the side, ala american style controls. The euros have funny ideas about there to put their controls, but that's my opinion of course.




I have small hands, it is easier for my to use the mag release on the USP, I use the muddle finger of my strong hand. With my 1911's (I have two) I need to twist the gun to get my thumb on the mag release. I dont have to take the USP of target while changing mags, like I do with the 1911.

Dont get me wrong, I love my 1911's too.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 5:00:42 AM EDT
The full size USPs are just too big to really do anything with. I owned a full sized .40 and didn't much like the way it felt. I wouldn't mind picking up a P2000, they seem to have addressed many of the ergonomic issues.

I own several Glocks currently but wouldn't recommend one in .40. I hated the way my G23 shot and felt. I think the second-generation G19 is the best gun they ever made. I still have my G30 but I hate shooting it, it needs a drastic grip reduction.

If I were you I would take a very close look at the Springfield XD. I prefer it over the Glock in almost every area (my one gripe is that the trigger reset is too long).

Also for a polymer .40 there are plenty of other options: SIG P2340, CZ 100, FN 49, Witness P series, Walther P99, Kahr K40, even the (blech) Beretta 9000 and S&W Sigma.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:54:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
I'm a Glock guy now and own six of them. I'm a strong believer in finding something and sticking to it. I won't be fumbling for controls or levers because Glocks are all I own, shoot and know. The same should go for you if you choose a USP. I've tried the USP and it just didn't work for me in IDPA. The double action trigger is one of the worst out there. Yes, you can carry cocked and locked but you will sometimes accidently decock a variant one under pressure. I strongly recommend that if you intend to carry cocked and locked that you go with the variant 10 which elliminates the decock. USP shooters also drop mags by accident all the time in IDPA. The reason is that under recoil the fingers are against the mag release and it gets pushed down.



WoW...I have never seen anyone with a USP drop a mag or decock except when they meant to, hell, I can't even figure out how you could drop a mag when your fingers are UNDER the release when gripped. I don't have any "fumble" problems with my USP's either, I pull the trigger and it goes bang. (not kaboom )
I'm sorry that some people find learning to use controls a bit...challenging, but I guess thats why they make both automatic and manual transmissions, some people just can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
As for the trigger, thats one of the main reasons I didn't like the glocks I had. IMO, the glock has the worst trigger I've ever used.

Link Posted: 6/12/2003 8:24:37 AM EDT
The problem isn't learning controls it's having several different handguns with different controls. If you decide upon a USP, then stick to USPs.

I've seen the decock and mag drop problem with quite a few people. The mag drop problem is strictly grip related. The shooters were tucking their thumbs down against the mag release, easily corrected. The decock problem can also be fixed by getting rid of the variant one.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 10:37:24 AM EDT
The USP is my favorite handgun but it is by no means perfect. All guns have flaws but I think the USP is one of the best around. The two flaws about the USP which bother me are the high bore axis and the crappy double action trigger. Other than that I love the gun. The USP is quite accurate, very reliable, extremely rugged and the controls are well laid out and easy to operate even with my short thumbs. I hear people complain about accidental decock but it has never happened to me. Even if it dies happen the gun will still fire when you pull the trigger so what is the big deal? If this is a concern simply instal an ambidexterous safety and your hand will prevent decocking without shifting your grip. BTW, the mag release is great and can be operated a number of ways but is also out of the way.

Personally I hate glocks, good gun terrible grip. The grip angle is totally wrong for me and the finger grooves don't fit my hands at all even though my hands are probably pretty average size.

Other than 1911's no one else is making handguns IMHO besides HK and Sig. Walther may be creeping onto the list because the p99 looks pretty good...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:45:02 AM EDT
The grip on the Glock sucks! My 23 was very accurate but so uncomfortable to handle I sold it and bought guess what...HK all the way.
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