What are the problems with the Beretta 9mm?  I have been reading about problems or dislikes about the Beretta.  It looks like half the board is for and the other is against.  What are the pro's and con's of the pistol?

I love the Model 92, my uncle had one and he said it was the best pistol he owned that was DA.  I'm just curious about what others views on it.

Many people's problem with the M9 is that it replaced the 1911/.45 ACP. The same phenomenon can be found in those that criticize the M16 as a pea shooter because it replaced the M14/7.62.

It's a fine pistol.  I have one for target shooting.

My only complaint would be that the safety is on the slide, thus I always end up decocking the pistol and puting it on safe when I manipulate the slide.  But it's no biggie cuz I don't carry it for defense.

I got mine way back when Lethal Weapon came out. I've shot THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of rounds of every kind of 9mm ammo imaginable. Never one jam, FTF, FTE and nothing has ever broken on it.

That say's it all to me.

My only beef it that it does not have night sights, but you can get them for it. I just did not know about them at the time.

The Beretta 92FS is a great pistol, the only problem is that the grip is a little large for smaller hands. It fits my hands perfectly but others may not be so lucky! I wouldnt trade my Berettas for any other pistol, thats how much I like them!


BKVic

Its a decent pistol.  Plenty accurate, and reliable enough under normal conditions.

It has had some problems.

The famed slide breakages that turned out to be far more rare then the coverage they recieved warranted.

Locking block cracks.

Trigger spring breakages.

Magazine unreliability in sandy conditions.

For me, they are just too big for a 15 shot 9mm.  Yet on the other hand there is a certain sexy appeal to them.

Ive owned two, but currently Im without one.  If I lucked into a great deal on one again, Id probably pick it up.

Lumpy is right on, those are all the complaints that I have ever heard of with the Beretta. I do own one and I absolutely love it. They look great, have that glassy smooth action, are accurate, and are big and heavy enough that they take away whatever little recoil the 9mm had to begin with. My collection will not be without a 92.

drew

If the price of the Beretta 92 were about $100 less, I would like them much more! LOL.

But seriously, they are good guns. It is large and for that reason many people don't like them. There have been reports coming back from the warzones about poor reliability in sandy conditions. But I hear far more favorable reports with the 92 than unfavorable.

I hold the opinion that nearly all modern semi-auto pistols from a quality manufacturer are pretty darn good. Whether a Beretta, Sig, H&K, S&W, Colt, Ruger, Glock, Kimber, Springfield, Browning (FN), CZ, etc, etc, etc, they will all likely be quality pieces. But while none are perfect nor terrible, people will invariably like some better than others based upon their own preferences. Some love the Beretta, some hate it. It's the same with all brands. But just because some people don't like a particular brand or model doesn't mean they are a bad gun. The only semi-auto pistols that I can think of that I would refuse to own are the Jennings, Hi Point and the S&W Sigma series. These IMO are dog s#&*!But others may disagree.

-Charging Handle

I bought a 92FS used & was prepared to not like it. It turns out I really liked it a lot, I even paid for a trigger job on it, smoothing it out helped its feel tremendously.

Accuracy was a pleasant surprise as well.

My most recent one is a keeper, although it's in dire need of trigger work...this one's let off is heavy and has the creepies.
I like the "daylight" afforded by the sight picture and it puts 'em where you point it.
Some folks are complaining about the newer ones coming through with plastic parts.
One big plus is that 15 round magazines can still be found relatively cheap.
I think the locking block problem was addressed long ago and as far as sand goes in the magazines, mine rarely see dust, so is not an issue.

Gene and Aimless,

Swap out the factory mainspring with a factory weight Colt Gov't Model spring and install one of the Wolfe Trigger Spring conversions.  You'll be suprised what it will do for your trigger pull.

First, don't pay any attention to anyone that has never owned one. Most of these guys just parrot what they have read on some gun board; and there has been a lot of discussion on the 92.

I have large hands and really like the grip size and angle. My problem is the damn slide mounted controls. Another problem is drawing them out of a tight holster with the safety off, they go bang. The trigger bar is on the outside of the frame and moves forward to release the sear. The US adopted the 92 to help the Italians offset the licensing costs of Bell helicopters. All politics.

For me it was purely a matter of ergonomics , like many others . The grip was just too larege to accomodate my hands , I could not get optimal finger placement on the trigger without fudging around with the grip....so therefore I was not able to get consistently good groups...
other than that it seemed like a fine gun ...

I had better luck with a 8045 Cougar ...that one I liked a lot....


Had a chance to handle (not shoot) a Vertec a couple of weeks ago , and though I thought it was a big , ugly gun , they did seem to have rectified the grip problem....

.02 fer ya

t

Quoted: Gene and Aimless, Swap out the factory mainspring with a factory weight Colt Gov't Model spring and install one of the Wolfe Trigger Spring conversions.  You'll be suprised what it will do for your trigger pull.

While Lumpy196 is correct, use the Beretta 92 DAO mainspring and trigger spring and you will be just as happy without voiding any warranty.

The 92 is a great gun, but it's a little too big for my tastes, the 226 fits me much better ans is also a great one.

I own a 92FS and added the Houge wrap-around grips with finger grooves.

Fits my hand like a glove!

The 92FS will eat any ammo I put into it, including the REALLY cheap stuff, and even feeds fine from USA mags.

Av.

Quoted: First, don't pay any attention to anyone that has never owned one. Most of these guys just parrot what they have read on some gun board; and there has been a lot of discussion on the 92.

This is so true! (on many topics)

I own and have owned several 92s over the years.  I now prefer & carry Glocks, but that has more to do with their slimmer grips & my small hands than any problems with the Berettas.  I have never experience a problem with any of my Berettas and trust them implicitly.  In fact, my & my wife's nightstand guns are a pair of used police contract guns I picked up several years ago with night sights & Robar NP3 finishes.  I added Crimson Trace lasergrips and M3 tactical lights to them and now they are excellent "his & hers" bedside pistols.

edited to add:
Before I get blasted by the "big-bore" crowd, (1) my wife handles the 9mm better than larger calibers, (2) I wanted us to have identical pistols for the bedroom [high stress, common manual-of-arms, etc. - she is competent but does not shoot as much as I do], & (3) we each also have a shotgun on our respective sides of the bed, & THEY will be the first firearms we reach for if the alarm goes off...

The magazine issue is mainly a matainence and supply factor with the M9. Depending on your unit, you can and will get stuck with crappy mags. Attention to side arms resupply has always been an issue; not really seen as important. Even with the rifle mags, there is alot of beat up, worn out supply. Back in the 1980's we used to trade off crap 30's for 20's through unauthorized channels. And the thing about sand is true with any of our firearms; it will screw up anything that it gets into!!! The slide breakage issue was a joke, a few pistols that shot thousands of rounds of 50,000 psi ammo failed. Proof loads only reach about 42,000 psi and most commercial stuff runs around 35,000 psi. We are talking rifle pressures in a pistol! This only goes to show you how strong the weapon is.

Well now that the first questions seem to be answered.  What range of accuracy could I be looking at after the the break in period?

grip is a little big for me

Thanks Lumpy, I just happen to have a few extra Colt GM and Gold Cup mainsprings to try out.
The alleged "D" model 92 springs I purchased are WAY too long...# 38, I think, and never used them.
Another small gripe...I wish the rear sight was easier to drift...mine won't budge and I have drifted/installed many sights in my day.

Quoted: Well now that the first questions seem to be answered.  What range of accuracy could I be looking at after the the break in period?

I have owned 5 different 92FS pistols in past 10 years and still own 2 of them.  My experience indicates that most are much more accurate than people think.  

Pistol #1 was the first one I purchased and it would shoot 2" at 25 yards when good target ammo is used.  Not great but good accuracy.  This one has shot about 15,000 rounds now and it is still just as accurate.  

Pistol #2 was the first Stainless ones imported from Italy.  This one had GREAT fit and finish and had great trigger but I could not get it to shoot less than 3" at 25 yards.  Most generic factory loads would shoot about 4" - 4.5".    

Pistol #3 was the first US made stainless model.  The fit and finish of the pistol was pretty poor compared to Italian ones but the trigger was okay.  However, this pistol was very accurate.  It would shoot under 1" with my hand-load on good days when I do my part behind the trigger.  This is one of my most accurate 9mm pistol and the accuracy is on par with many custom build 9mm pistols.    

Pistol #4 and #5 are both blued models purchased together in 1999.  Both pistols will shoot slightly under 2" with target ammo or my hand-load.  However, #5 is very consistantly accurate with just about any ammo... 2.5" or less with any decent ammo while #4 will shoot under 2" with only few select ammo.

Most 92FS pistols will shoot about 2" or slightly larger groups at 25 yards when using ammo it likes while most generic factory loads will do around 3".  This is pretty accurate for a mass produced pistol.  Most people I see who says 92FS are not accurate pistols are usually those same people who can shoot accurately.  
 

               
 

HI,

I have been a handguner more than anything else.The Beretta was the first handgun I got, when they just came out,I have one from Italy.I have gone throught other handguns and wanted to sell the Beretta for some money, but it is so dam reliable I never got rid of it,thank god.I carry my Kimber 45 most the time, but would feel as safe with my Beretta it is a dam good gun. Thanks,Kev

My father had an early 92FS I beleive it was. He sent it in for repair several times. Shot all over the place.  Everytime he sent it back they would state the barrel had a burr in it, but they had fixed the problem and tested it out. Never did fix the problem. Traded it off at a gunshow. I WILL NEVER BUY  BERETTA based solely on their CUSTOMER SERVICE. This was the only Lemon beretta that I have caome into contact with. Have buddies that own them and say they are fine weapons.

In response to the customer service issue, when I got my first 92 I took it completely apart. No two partw were together. I could not get it back together.

I sent it, in pieces, back to Beretta, who:

1. Put all new springs in the pistol
2. Put a new locking block on the barrel
3. Test fired for function and accuracy
4. Replaced the missing trigger pin
5. Got the pistol back to me in under 2 1/2
  weeks from my send date.

And for all of this work they charged me:

$0.00

I was very happy with their customer service, especially seeing how the thing was totally my fault.

Here's a gripe, it is boring.  It just goes bang every time and hits the target.

Yawn...

Quoted: Here's a gripe, it is boring.  It just goes bang every time and hits the target. Yawn...

 Give me "boring" any day!

If only it were boring

from www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=189909&page=1#bottom

9mm: There was general dissatisfaction with this weapon. First and foremost, soldiers do not feel it possesses sufficient stopping power. They desire a modification to allow for more accurate firing during limited visibility – tritium on the sight posts was a specific recommendation. The 9mm magazine performed very poorly. Soldiers were stretching the spring in order to provide sufficient force to feed rounds into the chamber. Soldiers were not satisfied with the guidance from higher to not stretch the spring and only load 10 rounds in the 15 round magazine.

Top Areas for Improvement: • Lethality: The pistol system requires greater stopping power, improved magazines and a better holster.

And from the USMC:

M9 Pistol Magazines ~ The magazines are not working properly. The springs are extremely weak and the follower does not move forward when rounds are removed. If the magazine is in the weapon, malfunctions result. If out of the weapon, remaining rounds fall out of the magazine. Dirt and sand does cause some of the problem with follower movement, but multiple cleanings of the magazine each day does not alleviate the problem. The main problem is the weak/worn springs

Now many of these problems are related to the age of the fleet. They need overhaul. But given the disatisfaction with the 9mm cartridge, evidenced both above and in the fact that Army and Marine SF units won't use them and think very highly of the few hundred remaining 1911 type pistols they have between them.

Is it better the rebuild the Beretta fleet-we did this many times for the 1911s in their 75 years of service- OR to spend the cash buying a handgun that the service men would really approve of?

Oh and this time, we have data. Handguns saw more use in Iraq than any time in living memory because of the CQB and the attacks made on rear area units by Iraqi militia, and now the demands of Law Enforcement duty. The Marine after action reports include a request for more handguns to the infantry.

Weapon Backup ~ Many infantrymen are requesting that all operators have an issued backup weapon, (i.e. M9 pistol) to augment their T/O weapon. If they can’t get pistols for secondary weapon purposes, they need more pistols available for MOUT operations to operate in very confined spaces, stairwells, etc. They request at least one per squad; minimum, one per fire team; better.

. This has got to be the first time since the Civil War that a command has complained about a shortage of handguns.

Besides the CQB requirements, its a Soldier Surviveability issue. Having spent 1500 dollars per Soldier/Marine to equip them with Interceptors and rifle strike plates already, another 500 bucks roughly to equip them with a decent backup gun does not seem very unreasonable at all.

Isn't the USMC already replacing the M9 with the M11 (Sig 228)?

ArmdLbrl;

I have had many conversations with relatives in my family who served in the military AND actually engaged in combat about sidearms and they pretty much all gave same answer... mainly that handguns are not important to combat soldier and that they would prefer to carry extra ammo for their rifle than to carry a pistol and spare magazines.  I think the funds government spents on handguns and related equipments and training would be better spent if used to buy extra ammo, facility and training for their rifle.  

We civilians are concered with handguns and their performance because we can not go around carrying a rifle on daily basis.          

ArmdLbrl:

I am really curious as to the TYPES of soldiers / marines that were interviewed. These complaints sound like the complaints of wannabee Rambos who spend too much time jerking off to Guns and Ammo magazines.

Bad magazines is a supply issue. Magazines mainly used as decoration for years - sitting exposed through countless field problems and changes of command in the rain get, well, unserviceable.

I know few infantrymen who want to ADD weight to their gear. Most scoff at all the hich tech gizmos the tech weanies keep coming out with. Why adding the weight of a pistol would be a benefit is beyond me.

Night sights? If you cannot see your sights, you cannot ID your target. A flashlight seems like a more practical solution.

Adam

Pistol #3 was the first US made stainless model. The fit and finish of the pistol was pretty poor compared to Italian ones but the trigger was okay.

Totally untrue. The U.S.-made Berettas have a different metal finish, which is not poor at all, just different. The Italian stainless guns have more of a brushed or polished finish, whereas the U.S. stainless guns have a bead-blasted finish. I would imagine Beretta shifted over to the bead-blasted finish for the same reasons that they've made other changes in the 92: cost and ease of maintenance.


That being said, no matter what was chosen as the sidearm, it would be scorned by someone.

If the Armed Forces had kept the 1911, somebody would bitch about an obsolete sidearm manufactured on nineteenth-century technology.

If it was a SiG, somebody would raise hell about no external safety and there would be exaggerated reports of NDs.

And on and on.

I think some people bitch for the sake of bitching; it's their nature.

I like the grips better than any other pistol I have tried.  The stock trigger is very heavy though.  The very heavy DA trigger with a manual safety is overkill.

I was one of the people who posted a tread with a problem with my Inox 92FS some time ago. Well, I send it in and got it back WITHIN A WEEK! they were extremely fast about fixing/replacing the defective parts, and very curtious. they overnighted it to me via ups once it was fixed, and all this at no charge. even though it was defective when i bought it brand new, i would definately buy again and recommend this company to you.

The military does quite well with the 92FS pistols. The whole slide fracture thing happened on a few pistols, most of them were probably the result of busted locking blocks. (New design locking blocks last much longer...)
A busted locking block can lead to slide fractures, but Beretta has improved locking blocks to make it less likely for them to break in the first place.  

There are reliability complaints after GWII, but these are magazine related. The newer magazines are parkerized and have a plastic follower instead of the traditional blued magazines with alloy followers. The newer parked mags do not like dirt or sand at all, and tend to bind up easily. We took up a collection of the older style mags to send to a friend over there.

There is always some dude or another who claims that the Berettas slides fracture all the time and claims to have pictures, but I have yet to see these produced.

The 92FS pistols are wonderfully reliable and effective guns. Soldiers DO complain about the lack of stopping power, but I would too if I had to use 9mm ball ammo.

Are there better 9mm sidearms out there? The Sig 226 is excellent, as is the USP. Better? Possibly.

But the M9 remains as a reliable, and when properly maintained, durable weapon capable of lasting longer than we will. It performs as well as any pistol I have seen in adverse conditions and rarely jams even when covered in mud and crud. (As my 92 was during my time at BW...) The only real gripe I have with the 92 is the trigger return spring (which can be fixed with a Wolff trigger unit) and the fact that you need to replace the locking block at least every 10,000 rounds.

I consider what I carry very carefully as I may be betting my life on that choice. Even with a custom Les Baer 1911 in the gunsafe, even with Sig's, Walthers, H&K USP's, and more in there right with that beautiful 1911, I still choose the Beretta 92FS as my primary carry gun. If I knew I was going to be in a gunfight, I would have one of my Beretta 92's with me. (I would be carrying my Bushmaster AR, but the 92 would be on my hip. Never take a pistol to a gunfight if you can help it...)

It fits my hand like no other pistol and I shoot it better than any other handgun I have ever owned. (And I have owned a bunch, let me tell ya...) The HK USPs, the Walther P99, the Sigs, they are all good guns and very servicable weapons, but my 92 just feels better and fits better, and I shoot it better.

If the 92 feels good to you, get one. They are perfectly reliable and with a little trigger work from Ernie Langdon they can be near perfect. Only skip the 92 if you want a bigger caliber (which isn't a bad thing) or your hands don't fit the size of the gun.

Don't let fairytales about the 92 keep you from what is by any measure a very good pistol.  

Side bar: Just got some pre-ban mags in the mail today, got them ahead of time just to have them when I get it, but do they need to be lubricated in anyway?  I haven't found a answer in the beretta manual.

End of side bar.

Of course, they should be dismantled first, to be cleaned. A light film of oil would prevent rusting.
Then compare the spring lengths for servicability, as you don't know the history of these magazines. Assuming yours are used.
Carefully inspect the feed lips for nicks or bends (I had one I couldn't see and caused feed problems, since fixed)
I just got back 7 mags from getting hard chromed, YIPPEE!, no more worn marks in the bluing! And they turned out great too!

Armdlbrl,

As an MP, I can tell you all those issues are total BS.

9mm vs .45.......5.56 vs 7.62, same old argument, same old crap.  Both will do the job just fine.  The problem is that the Military is restricted to ball ammo.  .45 ball ammo would suck for defense too.  Besides, the average soldier needs the 15 round capacity because the pistol marksmanship training in the Military is a joke.  

The magazine springs being bad is a maintenance issue, as mentioned above.  The Military is "pistol ignorant".  They really could give half a crap about pistols because they are not primary combat weapons.  Airborne MPs in ITaly were using ball 9mm from 1987!!!  Talk about half-assed maintenance!

Sand would have jammed a 1911 mag just the same.

Quoted: Isn't the USMC already replacing the M9 with the M11 (Sig 228)?

The M11 is already deployed with the Marines and Army.  They are limited issue though, mainly Investigation units and MP's have been issued them in the past.  Reports that I have heard from SF personel is that they have them in their armory, though they do not use them much.  I haven't heard alot of military personel complain about the 9mm cartridge, well thats just everyone that I have talked with, but over all they haven't complained.

Quoted: Assuming yours are used. Carefully inspect the feed lips for nicks or bends (I had one I couldn't see and caused feed problems, since fixed)

Yes the mag are used.  I have a couple of spent cartriges that I kept from when I went pistol shooting with my uncle, I put them in the mags to make sure that they weren't bent in or out.  Everything looks fine, now I just hope that someone I know has a Beretta so that I can test them out for a final test.  But other than that it is all good and everything looks and seems reliable.

Quoted: But given the disatisfaction with the 9mm cartridge, evidenced both above and in the fact that Army and Marine SF units won't use them and think very highly of the few hundred remaining 1911 type pistols they have between them.

What SF personel have you talked with?  I have meet or talked with ex-special forces before, and then some presently in SF, but when I asked about the weaponry they never had any bad feelings towards the M9.  The M1911 is hardly issued anymore, most often SF are carrying the Beretta M9 combat pistol.  One SF member (green beret) stated that "the M1911 is still in the inventory but is never used anymore, it is presently stored in the foreign weapons section."  Also I have talked with Marines, Air Force Security Forces, Army personel, and then some Navy.  They all have said too that they have found the pistol to be good and didn't think that the 9mm was bad.  One Navy member tested this when he was attacked while stationed in port during a uprising of the locals, one shot and the guy with the machet dropped to the floor, wasn't killed though he only shot him in the shoulder.  I have friends right now that are serving in Iraq, when my friend talked with them he asked them what he carried and he said the M16A2 and a Beretta M9, he loves the thing and doesn't have any problems.

Quoted: Isn't the USMC already replacing the M9 with the M11 (Sig 228)?

The M9 is the standard issue sidearm of the US military, the M11 is already deployed with the Marines and Army but are limited issue, mainly Investigation units and MP's have been issued them in the past.  Reports that I have heard from SF personel is that they have them in their armory, though they do not use them much.  I haven't heard alot of military personel complain about the 9mm cartridge, well thats just everyone that I have talked with, but over all they haven't complained.

Quoted: Assuming yours are used. Carefully inspect the feed lips for nicks or bends (I had one I couldn't see and caused feed problems, since fixed)

Yes the mag are used.  I have a couple of spent cartriges that I kept from when I went pistol shooting with my uncle, I put them in the mags to make sure that they weren't bent in or out.  Everything looks fine, now I just hope that someone I know has a Beretta so that I can test them out for a final test.  But other than that it is all good and everything looks and seems reliable.

Quoted: I own a 92FS and added the Houge wrap-around grips with finger grooves. Fits my hand like a glove! Av.

I've got Houge wrap-arounds with finger grooves on mine too, and it's probably the best investment you can make on it! Not saying that the factory grip is bad, but for $17 bucks (at gun shows, if you know how to haggle...if not: $19...i saved 2 bucks!!!! hehehehe), you can make it a true joy to hold and shoot.

Quoted: Quoted: I own a 92FS and added the Houge wrap-around grips with finger grooves. Fits my hand like a glove! Av. I've got Houge wrap-arounds with finger grooves on mine too, and it's probably the best investment you can make on it! Not saying that the factory grip is bad, but for $17 bucks (at gun shows, if you know how to haggle...if not: $19...i saved 2 bucks!!!! hehehehe), you can make it a true joy to hold and shoot.

FWIW, the feel/profile of the newer, wraparound Crimson Trace lasergrips for the Beretta is almost identical to the Houge wraparaounds you are talking about.  I went from the Houges to the CTs and don't feel any difference.

I carried one and did like it.  Unfortunetly the barrell rusted completly on mine and my buddie's one had a slide crack near the front sight base.  The mags where fine but we didn't carry loaded mags often.  I atibute this to the weapons being holstered while being battered around, constantly rained on, and the Hawaii salt air.

Recently read something on the Beretta website.  They say that the Model 92 magazines can work in the 8000 Cougar pistol, any truth in that?

Does anybody here have PERSONAL combat experience and/or more than a couple hundred rounds a year through a MILITARY specimen?


I find it odd that people that have never been there think they can call bs on someone that has.  You say that most like them.  Yet the MARINES have stated that the M9 is a piece of shit, and are looking for a "sea duty weapon".

I wonder why almost every Elite unit in the US picks 1911's instead of M9/92FS?  It doesn't fill any of the needs that were "thought" to be shortcomings of the 1911, expect that its chambered in 9mike-mike.

Yet the MARINES have stated that the M9 is a piece of shit, and are looking for a "sea duty weapon".

Do you have any way to verify this, aside from pointing to an internet message board?

If it was a "piece of crap" it would not have been in service for nearly two decades now.

Half of my MP battalion is in Baghdad right now.  The only reason I was left behind was that I hadn't completed Officer basic coarse when they deployed.  I keep in touch with many of them and have yet to hear anything negative about the performance of the Beretta M9.

When looking at Special Operations as a whole, VERY few units or individuals use the 1911.