Quoted: Yet the MARINES have stated that the M9 is a piece of shit, and are looking for a "sea duty weapon".

Do you have proof of that? I can't find it anywhere.

I wonder why almost every Elite unit in the US picks 1911's instead of M9/92FS?  It doesn't fill any of the needs that were "thought" to be shortcomings of the 1911, expect that its chambered in 9mike-mike.

Very few "elite" units are using the 1911. There are only a few hundred in the inventory even if "every Elite unit" wanted one.

The Beretta had some problems when it was first issued. All weapon systems do. When the 1911 was introduced, the soldiers hated it too. Thus the 1911A1, and now it is one of the best guns ever made. The Garand went through design changes. The M16 was hated when it was first issued.

The M9 is a fine sidearm, quit relying on reports of failures from the 80's.

Av.

Quoted: Does anybody here have PERSONAL combat experience and/or more than a couple hundred rounds a year through a MILITARY specimen?

I have talked with my friends in the military (two have served in Iraq) and have asked those who serve in the military what they think of the weapon when they come to speak in school, presentations, etc.  They all have said they have not found any problem with the weapon if it is kept clean.  My Army recruiter and his buddies served in Bosnia, he carried the Beretta loved the thing.

Yet the MARINES have stated that the M9 is a piece of shit, and are looking for a "sea duty weapon".

I have talked with Marines before and they haven't complained about the firearm.  Where have you heard your information?  Just a few interviewed Marines cannot give the whole military's view of it.  If you are refering to the link listed a while back, it talked about the magazine not the weapon.  Also sand will cause any firearm to malfunction, even the M1911.  
Passages taken from the post on AR15.com a while back:
"There were numerous comments that the M16 is too long and cumbersome in the urban fight. Several Marines even opted to use the AK-47s that had been captured from Iraqi weapons caches. Others were trading the rifle for pistols to go into buildings to allow mobility in confined spaces."
"Weapon Backup ~ Many infantrymen are requesting that all operators have an issued backup weapon, (i.e. M9 pistol) to augment their T/O weapon. If they can’t get pistols for secondary weapon purposes, they need more pistols available for MOUT operations to operate in very confined spaces, stairwells, etc. They request at least one per squad; minimum, one per fire team; better."
Now why would they trade a rifle for a pistol that is a "piece of shit"?

I wonder why almost every Elite unit in the US picks 1911's instead of M9/92FS?  It doesn't fill any of the needs that were "thought" to be shortcomings of the 1911, expect that its chambered in 9mike-mike.

Not many SF personel are still using the M1911A1.  "After 21 years in SF I'll tell you that you should brush up on your facts.

The M11 has been in the SF inventory for quite some time now, and the only 1911s in the "Green Beret" inventory is in the arms room for familiarization purposes. In fact, we kept ours in the foreign weapons locker. The primary weapon is the M9 for Army SF. Occasionally a "6" team will have more, but I won't elaborate."  That was taken from a discussion obtained from HKpro.com from a SF member.  SEALs do not carry the M1911 anymore they have choosen the Sig P226, Air Force PJ's Beretta, Security Forces Sig P226, Green Berets and Rangers carry the Beretta M9.  Very few SF still are using the M1911.

That super secret Army unit that doesnt exist uses 1911s as does Marine Force Recon.

That super secret Army unit that doesnt exist uses 1911s as does Marine Force Recon.

It's my understanding that the units who do use the 1911 (and the .45 ACP in general), use them for offensive weapons rather than as the traditional "weapon of last resort."

The 1911s used by Force Recon aren't the typical GI issued .45s of the past (ragged, loose, zero accuracy beyond about seven yards, etc.). They've been tricked-out and built up.

Compared to the GI issue 1911, the Beretta is actually a pretty good gun.

Quoted: Quoted: Does anybody here have PERSONAL combat experience and/or more than a couple hundred rounds a year through a MILITARY specimen? "I have talked with my friends in the military"

Thats what I thought.

I do want to ask you one thing, you started this thread asking "What are the problems with the Beretta M9" and then in your last post stated "after 21 years in SF you should brush up on your facts" it seems to me that if you spent 21 years in Special Operations you should know the shortcomings of the weapon.

Please email me with your reply at [email protected].

I was not just talking about Military units, elite units as whole.  As far as most Military units go, they carry what is issued, not whats best.  But you need not look farther than what those who have a choice carry.

Also , please capitilize MARINE, NAVY, ARMY, and AIR FORCE.  Including subunits such as SEALS, FORCE RECON, SPECIAL FORCES, RANGERS, etc. they/we have earned it.

Thank you.

I did not start the thread with Problems with the Beretta M9, I said "Gripes about the Beretta 9mm."  Meaning Beretta model 92FS 9mm Pistol.  The quote about  "After 21 years in SF I'll tell you that you should brush up on your facts.

The M11 has been in the SF inventory for quite some time now, and the only 1911s in the "Green Beret" inventory is in the arms room for familiarization purposes. In fact, we kept ours in the foreign weapons locker. The primary weapon is the M9 for Army SF. Occasionally a "6" team will have more, but I won't elaborate."  I said that the quote was taken off the HKpro.com website about Special Operations Sidearms, a Green Beret stopped by and stated the above message to the board. Here is the link:  sf1000.registeredsite.com/~user880686/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=007346.  I never said that the M1911 is not issued, I just said that it is not used presently in large amounts or often.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does anybody here have PERSONAL combat experience and/or more than a couple hundred rounds a year through a MILITARY specimen? "I have talked with my friends in the military" Thats what I thought. I do want to ask you one thing, you started this thread asking "What are the problems with the Beretta M9" and then in your last post stated "after 21 years in SF you should brush up on your facts" it seems to me that if you spent 21 years in Special Operations you should know the shortcomings of the weapon.

uhhh... he made it pretty clear that he was quoting someone else.

Also , please capitilize MARINE, NAVY, ARMY, and AIR FORCE.  Including subunits such as SEALS, FORCE RECON, SPECIAL FORCES, RANGERS, etc. they/we have earned it. Thank you.

Uhhh... SEAL is an acronym and should be capitalized. The rest should not be. First letter, maybe, but only when specifying a specific country's forces.


Adam

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does anybody here have PERSONAL combat experience and/or more than a couple hundred rounds a year through a MILITARY specimen? "I have talked with my friends in the military" Thats what I thought. I do want to ask you one thing, you started this thread asking "What are the problems with the Beretta M9" and then in your last post stated "after 21 years in SF you should brush up on your facts" it seems to me that if you spent 21 years in Special Operations you should know the shortcomings of the weapon. Please email me with your reply at [email protected]. I was not just talking about Military units, elite units as whole.  As far as most Military units go, they carry what is issued, not whats best.  But you need not look farther than what those who have a choice carry. Also , please capitilize MARINE, NAVY, ARMY, and AIR FORCE.  Including subunits such as SEALS, FORCE RECON, SPECIAL FORCES, RANGERS, etc. they/we have earned it. Thank you.

it is well made, from an engineering standpoint.

but IMNSHO, it is too fat, too heavy, and chambered in 9mm.

there are so many pistols out there that are just as accurate and just as reliable, so why would you want one of those?

there are so many pistols out there that are just as accurate and just as reliable, so why would you want one of those?

For the same reason we buy everything else: BECAUSE WE CAN.

I know lots of guys in the military, and they all think the M9 is just fine when using the right magazines. One friend of mine (who is now in Iraq) had to use his M9 to save his rear end once.

The M9 performs well provided it is maintained decently. It is a big gun (too big for the hands of most) and it is heavier than some would like.

But it has served well over the years. The Delta guys use custom built 1911 handguns that cost well over 1500 bucks, and they get stipends to help them buy these guns.

The Marine Force Recon guys have 1911's that were built out of existing frames by the excellent Marine armorers. The rest of the pistol (slide, barrel, hammer, etc...) is built from quality components in the 1911 aftermarket.

Comparing the M9 to lovingly built custom 1911's is comparing apples to oranges. A 1911 bought for the price of the average M9 would fail their requirements big time. At least the M9 goes bang when you need it to.

Would most high speed low drag fellas rather have a weapon with a 3 pound trigger shooting 1" groups with a big heavy hittin projectile or a weapon with a 12 pound DA trigger that shoots a puny 9mm harball round? I would pick the 1911 too. For those guys the pistol is a secondary weapon anyway. They will do their main work with a rifle/carbine.

The pistol is just to give them firepower when they can only use one hand or when they need time to work on their primary.

None of that makes the M9 a POS. The main weakness of the M9 is the locking block. It is a pain to replace them as often as you should. A Sig 226 does not have that requirement.

But providing that you do this properly, the M9 works just as good as a P226.

I own a custom Les Baer 1911 and it is a fine weapon with a soildness and craftsmanship that few modern firearms can match. Guys drool over her all the time.

But if TSHTF the most likely weapon in my hand will be a Beretta 92 because I shoot it better and I want the extra ammo in the clip.

The Beretta is a good weapon that has performed well. There were some initial teething problems since Beretta was not allowed to make the guns in Italy. (They had to produce them in the US as per the contract)

The Maryland plant had some startup issues and the locking block had to be redesigned. But the Colt went through lots of its own teething problems, as did the M16, the M1 Garand, etc...

The Beretta pistols have been in service with the US military for almost 20 years now. Some of the older ones may need to be replaced since they have been through a few wars and a lot of being beaten up. But this same is true of all military small arms.

Even those expensive custom 1911's will wear out. But they are used in a more controlled way by much more gun-savy soldiers who treat their weapons better than general issue weapons get treated.

All this M9 bashing is just rediculous. It is not the greatest weapon ever invented, and it is not the POS you 1911 and Glock lickers out there think it is.

If you truly think the M9 is a POS then pick a fight with me while I am carrying mine. We will see how unreliable it is then...

Quoted: ...But if TSHTF the most likely weapon in my hand will be a Beretta 92 because I shoot it better and I want the extra ammo in the clip...

Quoted: it is well made, from an engineering standpoint. but IMNSHO, it is too fat, too heavy, and chambered in 9mm. there are so many pistols out there that are just as accurate and just as reliable, so why would you want one of those?

To me is it just right.  The weight doesn't bother me, has a even balance in my hand.  The grip is great, I don't like compact grips or anything that I can't get a good grip on.  So it really fits my hand great.  I like the 9mm caliber, also like the .45 ACP, but like the 9mm more.

Why do I want to get a Beretta 9mm?  For all of the above reasons and I like it.

I've used my Beretta 92FS for several years as my carry gun.  Yeah, it's big, but that means the minimal recoil of the 9mm becomes almost .22LR-like.  The DA to SA trigger takes a long time to master, but, hey we like to shoot.

It's cheap to feed and will digest everything.  Easy to fieldstrip.  Accurate.  Most reliable semi-auto I own.

The 92FS is the ONLY semi-auto firearm I own that has NEVER had a non-magazine realted jam.

And I own 4 AK's, a Glock, etc., etc.

I trust it to work like I do my Mausers

 

Well now that we got the reliability, accuracy, magazines out of the way lets move to a different part.

Whats a good belt holster for the Beretta 9mm pistol?

I like my beretta 92fs, and would most likely take it over my springfield 1911.

I have never had any jams with either, and have done some work to the 1911 to make it just as accurate as the beretta, and have a trigger that is 10x better than the beretta's.

The reason I would take the beretta...

I know how to shoot.  I dont need .45 ACP to make up for lack of shooting skill

I don't like double-action autos. The only reason I hang on to my Beretta is I have several after-market, 20 rd mags that function flawlessly in it.

Quoted: I don't like double-action autos. The only reason I hang on to my Beretta is I have several after-market, 20 rd mags that function flawlessly in it.

You DO know there's a simple conversion to make a Beretta 92 into a SINGLE-ACTION pistol, don't you?

Mb121: Try the Dillon "Master" cost is $40something dollars. Tight fit, good looking holster also. I have a 92FS and love it, no matter what anyone else here has to say. And some poeple seem to be saying that they'd prefer to be shot with a 9MM over a .45ACP. Bullshit-I don't wish to be shot at with ANY caliber, including the .22. The 92FS is a little large for concealed carry, but rides better and holds more rounds than my 1911A1. Actually, I carry a SIG P239 (.40S&W) 95% of the time, but rotate the others (S&W 686, 1911A1, 92FS, Browning HiPower 9MM, and even my GF's Colt .380) just to keep them from being "closet queens". As anyone can notice and has been pointed out before, guns-handguns in particular-are like cars and trucks. Some people love some brands and hate others. I love my 92FS, plain and simple. Very accurate, very reliable. What else you need in a handgun?
(Well, OK, they are prettier than a Glock)

Quoted: Quoted: I don't like double-action autos. The only reason I hang on to my Beretta is I have several after-market, 20 rd mags that function flawlessly in it. You DO know there's a simple conversion to make a Beretta 92 into a SINGLE-ACTION pistol, don't you?

Is it a actually Beretta modification or a aftermarket from some other company?

Quoted: Quoted: I don't like double-action autos. The only reason I hang on to my Beretta is I have several after-market, 20 rd mags that function flawlessly in it. You DO know there's a simple conversion to make a Beretta 92 into a SINGLE-ACTION pistol, don't you?

No, But I'm all ears.

A single action only pistol with a slide mounted safety.....yuck!

As far as holsters go, ever since I bought a Blade-Tech holster I haven't looked back. Their holsters are tough and can take a pounding (unlike a lot of el-cheapo plastic holsters out there that crack if you do any serious prone work...) and come out looking great.

They are impervious to sweat and other atmospheric conditions. They are light and adjustable for any ammount of tension you could want.

They are also lightning fast, and most amazingly, COMFORTABLE. You wouldn't think that cramming a hard polymer holster down your pants would be comfortable, but it is.

All my carry holsters are Blade-Techs. Their customer service is excellent and their product is top notch. Can't go wrong with their stuff...

OK I recently heard a rumor that if you use a M1911 A1 spring or a Beretta model 92D spring in the Model 92FS it will lighten the trigger pull on both the DA and SA modes, is this true?  And will it violate the warranty?

I have seen several 92FS pistols with the 92D hammer spring installed.

It does help out the trigger, and worth it IMHO.

I have never seen or heard anything about a 1911 spring.

Av.

Quoted: Is it a actually Beretta modification or a aftermarket from some other company?

Been out with a stomach virus - sorry for the delay in responding!

The best price I've seen on the conversion kit is at CDNN:

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ber92sacomco.html

* Please note that Beretta does not perform, endorse, or recommend this conversion (Duh!)

I don't have any personal experience with this conversion, I've just seen it advertised for a good long while now.  The DA/SA transition has never bothered me, but I've been shooting such weapons most of my life.  I would be curious to hear from someone who has made this conversion.

Certain units within the Special Operations community have replaced the stock M9 slide with the Brigadier slide.  This slide is well liked by the operators that I have been rubbing elbows with lately.  Only complaint is the the new slide's sights are 3 dots as opposed to the M9's 2 dot set up. Im not sure if this is a unit change or a "SOPMOD" for the M9 pistol.  The slide fracture issue IS a concern for USASOC units, as USASOC has a larger 9mm ammo allocation than the rest of the army combined(Mostly because of SFAUC)

This is why Beretta came up with the beefier slides.

I would have thought that the grunts would prefer 3 dot sights. I like the 3 dot arangement better than anything else I have tried.

To each his own I gues...

Wasn't the Brigadier made up because of some major LE contract with the INS?

The heavier profile slide was made up to adress the supposed shortcomings of the standard slide design that surfaced in the military. (Most of these concerns are way overblown...)

The INS may have mentioned this as a concern. (Probably did because of the higher .40 pressures...) I suppose only a Beretta insider could tell us the exact spark for the slide design. Probably the result of several different things.

according to Beretta:
92 Brigadier FS.
The Brigadier was designed to meet the special needs on the INS* who wanted an accurate, reliable and durable .40 caliber pistol with removable front and rear sights. The pistol incorporates all the high performance characteristics of the traditional 92 Series pistols plus features that are unique to the Brigadier.
The Brigadier’s slide is heavier and recontoured. Because of the heavier slide, the gun’s balance is enhanced and felt recoil is reduced, improving accuracy for follow-up shots. The Brigadier is available, on request, with wrap around, stippled rubber grips and hex key grip screws. The Brigadier is also manufactured in a stainless steel version (92 Brigadier FS Inox).
* U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service

I have a 92G (safety lever acts as a decocker only) with an Ed Brown 19# 1911 hammer spring.
It really does smooth and lighten both the
double and single action trigger pull.

What about a good holster?  Tried posting this in the Beretta thread and didn't get many responses.  Whats a good type?  Looking for a belt style preferably, outside the belt not IWB, paddle doesn't matter.  Any finish or material.

I still say Blade-Tech if you want a good hip holster. Galcos are decent too, as are Kramers and the like. I don't like Bianchi holsters.

Of all the holsters I have ever owned (and there have been a bunch of em, let me tell ya) I keep going back to the Blade-Techs. They are the most comfortable and fast holsters I have ever tried. Beware imitations like the Uncle Mikes! Those flimsy holsters make a FOBUS look good.

Stick to the original kydex holsters like Blade Tech makes. They are tougher and better than anything else I have found.

Anybody have any experience with that Beretta M9 special edition package?