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Posted: 5/31/2003 5:33:05 AM EDT
I've been using a Glock 21 for CCW, but I was thinking about switching to the Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt. My current model with its 7.5" barrel isn't going to cut it though. I need one with either a 5.5" barrel or a 4 and 5/8th's barrel.........
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 12:19:27 PM EDT
I've got a 45/8 in .45 colt and just don't see it working for concealed carry.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 1:15:56 PM EDT
I've got 2 4 5/8 models in .44 mag and there is now way I would carry them for ccw. They are big, bulky, have huge front sights that would snag on anything but a big and solid leather holster and are heavy. The would print through just about anything and are increadibly slow to reload. They are pheonominal point shooters though.

Just my $.02
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:41:30 PM EDT
Only McCloud (OK it was a Colt SAA).

SAA's are tactically inferior to anything you can carry besides a derringer.

They're fun as hell to shoot tho!
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 6:08:32 PM EDT
Not a flame, but why would you want to use a SA revolver for self defense???
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 4:56:23 AM EDT
Heck, if that's what you want to carry, go for it! I mean I wouldn't want to face a guy who has his head screwed on right, competes in Cowboy Action Shooting, and packs a Vaquero.

I wouldn't say it's the greatest choice, but that design has put many a man into his grave and it's pretty hard to argue that it's not an effective design.

It does have the advantage of coming in effective calibers, and the Ruger can be carries with 6 rounds.

It does have the disadvantage of being bulky in both width and having to hide the gun and the handle sticking out to the rear. It's slow to reload, but odds are you're either going to solve your situation or die before you have a chance to use more than 6.

I'd say consealability concerns, including finding a good CCW holster, would weigh pretty heavy on my mind though.

Ross
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 5:18:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 5:22:59 AM EDT by SouthernShark]
Well it's not something I would carry very often, but I do want to carry one sometime just for kicks and grins. My strategy would be to carry it IWB. I actually had the 7 1/2" model stuck down in my pants with no holster for about an hour. Believe it or not no one printed it. Maybe a few people thought that I was happy though.

Just drop a t-shirt over the handle and no one can see it.

Given the transfer bar safety, I am not slightly worried about an AD. That would be totally impossible, unless I drew the hammer back first.

As for why carry it for self defense? Ah hell why not? Most of the time I carry absolutely nothing. I am not what you might a "likely target." 99.99% of my life I have gone around with no gun, including in places like Miami, Fla., and have never been assaulted. I just don't have that "target" profile.

Besides, I think many people live in a fantasy world where criminals are all ex-spec force guerillas armed with 1911's, where you will need to draw and fire like an competition shooter just to be on par with them. The truth is that most of them are just cracked up idiots who might never have even been to the range. You really don't need a Glock 21 to deal with them. In fact that doesn't even seem fair given their limited mental capacity, lack of practice or the fact that they are probably coming at you with a Lorcin or a Makarov.

I guess though that down the road I could consider switching over to a Redhawk in .45 Colt if this works out........ (me just thinks up excuse to buy another gun)........
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:56:35 AM EDT
Bob Mernickle makes some nice concealable holsters for single action revolvers. Check out his PS6-SA for conceal carry or FC2 for field carry:
http://www.mernickleholsters.com/
The birdshead grip on the vaquero really helps too.
Lloyd
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:04:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 3:06:51 AM EDT by LotBoy]
www.mernickleholsters.com/

Looks like he has some nice stuff.

Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:02:52 AM EDT
I occasionally carry mine, a 5 1/2" polished stainless steal with black buffalo horn grips in .44mag in a shoulder rig, under a jacket. It conceals fine muzzle down in that shoulder rig. It is perfect when riding 4-wheelers. My knees are always too high for a traditional style hip rig.

As for caliber, why not go .44mag. A lot more versatile than .45LC. You can put .44 specials in it for practice and varmints, both two legged and four, or you can go with the heavys for even grizz. Very accurate round also.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:24:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 11:26:03 AM EDT by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By guns762:

As for caliber, why not go .44mag. A lot more versatile than .45LC. You can put .44 specials in it for practice and varmints, both two legged and four, or you can go with the heavys for even grizz. Very accurate round also.



Total nonsense. Anything a .44 mag can do, the .45 Colt can do better. You can load .45 Colt just as heavy as .44 mag, if not more so. Even commercial dealers are now offering 240 grain .45 LC at 1470 fps. You can also go heavy with 300 grain rounds at 1350 fps. That's just as powerful as .44 mag. And if you want lightweight, 45LC cowboys loads will again do anything that .44 special will do. And you don't need a different kind of shell to do it.

At the end of the day, its a personal choice. But I'd rather have a .45 (the American caliber) than an 11mm.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:30:08 AM EDT
cool idea dude.

get a good gun smith to install a "free spin pawl. it will allow you to rotate the cylinder both ways. give John Linebaugh a call (307) 645-3332 and talk to him about ccw with a single shot. he is a busy man but may have time to go over the finer points. he can also tune that Ruger and make it sing!
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 4:51:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 308wood:
cool idea dude.

get a good gun smith to install a "free spin pawl. it will allow you to rotate the cylinder both ways. give John Linebaugh a call (307) 645-3332 and talk to him about ccw with a single shot. he is a busy man but may have time to go over the finer points. he can also tune that Ruger and make it sing!



What is the advantage of being able to spin the cylinder either way? I guess it might make reloading easier if you miss one...... How does it effect reliability?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:16:34 PM EDT
You would carry a single action because it's the gun you're most comfortable with and you train with most. The 3 1/2" "sherrif's" models or Bird's head grip models are better for concealment.
If you've seen someone like Deadly Tedley out of Fresno, CA. you would not doubt the SA. It's about dedication, practice, and comfortability.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:30:14 AM EDT
well the factory rungers only spin one way and under stress its easy to spin it to far. so if your shooting and loading. in a tactical situation you fire once, open the gate, kick the empty out, put in a fresh one, close the gate and fire again. it's easy for the cylinder to get bumped and rotate to far to get the fresh round in. so you have to rotate the cylinder it all the way around and try again or forget it and try to fix it after the last shot. don't try this when your out in the open. fight your way to cover so you can reload.

why go to all this trouble? after all it's only a single action right? well it's the best alternative to having 5-6 empty chambers and having to punch out and then load. sure it's not fast but if you want fast get a 1911. it also gives you a magazine of 5 rounds in case you absolutely have to use them. the idea of a cowboy during a gun fight hiding behind the water barrel resting is kind of funny. i bet he was loading that old six gun just as fast as he could. that brings up a good point. because this gun it slow to load tactically you will need to move to cover if you think you will have to fire than 3 times. Thunder Ranch has a great class on this. i think it's called pre-1800. they teach you how to solve 21st century problems with 18th century tools or something to that effect.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:14:18 PM EDT
While I'm not "cowboy enough" to carry a s/a wheelgun for my CCW, I *do* love playing with 'em. How about a Schofield in .45 Colt? Strong enough action for defensive loads (though I wouldn't try anyting from CorBon), fast-open, auto ejection of empties... and HKS speedloaders for .45 S&W N-frames work.

I think of mine as my poor man's Webley.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 6:18:33 AM EDT
I have carried my 5 1/2 Stainless quite a bit as a CCW. Usually it gets carried on the weekends or during cold weather when clothing is a little more relaxed and concealing. I carried my Vaquero in my briefcase for a couple of years. I

've got some good Keith style loads for 45's that are everything and more that any 44 can be. Personally, I like the 45 better than the 44, with good Keith style bullets and loads approaching Linbaugh recommendations it is hard to beat. Stick with H110 or 296 and a 250 grain slug or larger and you can take down just about anything. Good luck!
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 6:52:48 AM EDT
Also, a smaller vaquero like the 3 3/4" with birdshead grip in a .45 is about the same size as the GP-100. And as waturz said, a 45 colt can be loaded to do about anything you want it to do. For me the single actions come up to point so much faster and just feel right.
Lloyd
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:09:32 AM EDT
Last year when they expanded the # of guns you can have on your CCW I added my Uberti in 44-40. Here in Nevada you have to qualify with each weapon before it can be added. I think my instructor is still laughing his ass off. You should have seed the look on his face when I pulled it out of my bag. To qualify, I had to fire 12 rounds (on target) in 45 seconds. He did not think I could do it but said what the hell and let me try. I actually did it in 52 seconds and after he stopped shaking his head he signed me off for "getting close".
I rarely carry it concealed (winter, big coat) but it is fun to carry sometimes "open".


Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:18:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 9:26:06 AM EDT by guns762]

Originally Posted By SouthernShark:

Originally Posted By guns762:

As for caliber, why not go .44mag. A lot more versatile than .45LC. You can put .44 specials in it for practice and varmints, both two legged and four, or you can go with the heavys for even grizz. Very accurate round also.



Total nonsense. Anything a .44 mag can do, the .45 Colt can do better. You can load .45 Colt just as heavy as .44 mag, if not more so. Even commercial dealers are now offering 240 grain .45 LC at 1470 fps. You can also go heavy with 300 grain rounds at 1350 fps. That's just as powerful as .44 mag. And if you want lightweight, 45LC cowboys loads will again do anything that .44 special will do. And you don't need a different kind of shell to do it.

At the end of the day, its a personal choice. But I'd rather have a .45 (the American caliber) than an 11mm.



In theory you're right(ie 454 Casul), but in practicality, you are wrong. MOST .45's will not handle the pressures you are talking about to make the.45LC do what the .44mag will do. Yes the Redhawk and probably even the Blackhawk/Vaquero, an a few others will do it, but why push the limit of handgun? Next, most commercial .45 loads are not going to reach to the performances you are talking about. Ya, there are a few, but they are usually not found in most small town shops. Also, light loads for the .44mag are just as available as your heavy .45LC loads and you don't have to use a different case. You didn't say you were a handloader, this makes a difference also in choosing the caliber. If you want to hotrod the .45LC go ahead. The .44mag has been proven to be a top notch cartridge that is more accurate than the .45LC. It's like trying to hot rod the .223 to .22-250 velocities. Ya, it's possible, but why do it when the .22-250 is already there. The same goes for the .44mag and .45LC. Your information is correct, and you probably didn't have to go off half cocked on me, I was just trying to help you look at all your options. I think your advice is wrong and dangerous for the normal guy trying to decide what caliber. As for .44mag not being American? Sheesh...that is like saying the .30-06 more American than .308. If you are competing in Cowboy Action Shooting, ya, then I would recommend your .45LC. If not, why hotrod and possibly damage your gun and yourself?
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:49:33 AM EDT
44mag vs. heavy 45LC.

what a pointless argument.
you are shooting people!!!
if you shoot most people they will go into shock.


.45-230@900 = .429-240@1200
it's the same damn thing.
get over it. and if you shoot them and they don't stop doing what ever it was that made you shoot them then you shoot them again. repeat until they do stop.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:54:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 308wood:
44mag vs. heavy 45LC.

what a pointless argument.
you are shooting people!!!
if you shoot most people they will go into shock.


.45-230@900 = .429-240@1200
it's the same damn thing.
get over it. and if you shoot them and they don't stop doing what ever it was that made you shoot them then you shoot them again. repeat until they do stop.



And this says it all.....thank you for bringing us back to reality. As for my above remarks....never mind ....45LC RULES.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:05:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 10:15:51 AM EDT by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By guns762:


In theory you're right(ie 454 Casul), but in practicality, you are wrong. MOST .45's will not handle the pressures you are talking about to make the.45LC do what the .44mag will do.



In theory, you should read a post before responding to it. It is clear that we are talking about Ruger Vaquero's here which were designed for pressures well above what the S&W .44 mag will handle.


Yes the Redhawk and probably even the Blackhawk/Vaquero,


Yes those were the guns we were talking about. Not to mention the Redhawk, Blackhawk and the Vaquero are all designed to handle the same pressures.


Ruger andn a few others will do it, but why push the limit of handgun?
The gun is designed for those pressures.


Next, most commercial .45 loads are not going to reach to the performances you are talking about. Ya, there are a few, but they are usually not found in most small town shops.


I don't live in a small town.


Also, light loads for the .44mag are just as available as your heavy .45LC loads and you don't have to use a different case.
Agreed, but who cares?


You didn't say you were a handloader, this makes a difference also in choosing the caliber.
I also didn't ask anything about WHICH caliber to use. That was something that you brought up.


If you want to hotrod the .45LC go ahead.
Ok, thank you for giving me your permission. It means a lot to me.


The .44mag has been proven to be a top notch cartridge that is more accurate than the .45LC.


False and without any support what so ever. You might as well say "Aliens are damaged more by .44 magnum" because you have the same level of statistical support to back your analysis.


It's like trying to hot rod the .223 to .22- 250 velocities. Ya, it's possible, but why do it when the .22-250 is already there.
.45 Colt was there first.


The same goes for the .44mag and .45LC.
Not really, since .22-250 requires an entirely different rifle.


Your information is correct, and you probably didn't have to go off half cocked on me, I was just trying to help you look at all your options
whatever.


I think your advice is wrong and dangerous for the normal guy trying to decide what caliber.
We have been talking about using the Ruger Vaquero for defense. If you shoot an Uberti then you can get some other handload. No one here has advised anyone to load any caliber in any particular manner. Your allegation that I am giving dangerous advice is as false as the rest of your claims.


As for .44mag not being American? Sheesh...that is like saying the .30-06 more American than .308.
.45 is the American caliber.


If you are competing in Cowboy Action Shooting, ya, then I would recommend your .45LC. If not, why hotrod and possibly damage your gun and yourself?
It is a Ruger and is designed to handle those pressures without a problem.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:46:28 PM EDT
A good article by John Linebaugh:
The .45 Colt Dissolving The Myth, Discovering The Potential
www.singleaction45.com/dissolving.htm
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:56:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Last year when they expanded the # of guns you can have on your CCW I added my Uberti in 44-40. Here in Nevada you have to qualify with each weapon before it can be added. I think my instructor is still laughing his ass off. You should have seed the look on his face when I pulled it out of my bag. To qualify, I had to fire 12 rounds (on target) in 45 seconds. He did not think I could do it but said what the hell and let me try. I actually did it in 52 seconds and after he stopped shaking his head he signed me off for "getting close".
I rarely carry it concealed (winter, big coat) but it is fun to carry sometimes "open".



Interesting requirements you have to meet. A few years ago I was shooting local (N. MI) fun steel plate matches with my Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Mag. My times for 5 plates (5 shots) from a low ready were in the 4.5-5 second range. So if I add a second for the 6th shot and times it by 2 that leaves 33 seconds for a 6 round reload. 5.5 seconds per shell. I'd have to practice some, but it should be possible to make the 45 second time limit.

Kent
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:20:18 PM EDT
NEVER! If you have another choice, why carry a Cowboy gun?
1. Heavy
2. Big, Wide, Long, (even with a 4 3/4" bbl)
3. Try doing a tactical reload
4. Night sights?
5. No speed loaders.


I have 3 Vaqueros for CAS matches. Two have 1.5lb triggers. These guns are heavy. I can reload them on the clock very quickly--but not in low light. I can dump rounds down range to rival the speed of most any autoloader, right up until shot number 6. Shot number 7 is the bitch.

Any gun is better than no gun, but why settle for a defense gun for just the "coolness factor". Apply the jury principals and reasonable person standards to the defensive shooting scenario and your choice of firearm.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:09:13 PM EDT
Would not be my first, second, or third choice for a carry gun. But, I would feel better off with a hogleg Ruger or Colt than some pissant .25,.32, or .380. A Colt Peacemaker up to the 5 1/2 barrels are fairly concelable In my opinion.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 10:44:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bulletslap:
Would not be my first, second, or third choice for a carry gun. But, I would feel better off with a hogleg Ruger or Colt than some pissant .25,.32, or .380.



Bingo. I won't jump in on the .44/.45 argument.. .it's pointless to your initial questions, and though it would not be my first choice either, definitely check out one of Ruger's bird's head Vaqueros. I have had the opportunity to handle a couple of them in different calibers and with the right leather (Mernickle stuff looks nice!) I think it would work.

Just more food for thought... 13 or 16 shots won't help you a bit if you can't hit what you are aiming at. Can you shoot that sixgun in the dark accurately? Is it worth betting your life on?
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 12:28:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Markbo:
Can you shoot that sixgun in the dark accurately? Is it worth betting your life on?



You've probably tried this, and know this already, but the single action points surprisingly well. I used to think shooting from the hip, and actually hitting anything was a joke made up by T.V, but it really isn't that hard with a little practice.

Give me my 92fs or my Vaquero in the dark, and I will probably do better with the Vaquero. It points and hits where you look. When bulk isn't a problem, my Vaquero does fine as a truck or CCW under jacket gun.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 12:37:43 PM EDT
Exactly, shooting a Vaquero from the hip is actually pretty easy (assuming you are shooting at a target, and not a point on the target). It's a highly accurate revolver.

There is the whole 6 shots and super slow reload thing, but how often would a civillian need more than 6 shots anyway? Strikes me as unlikely.

Most of the time I walk around with no gun. How does no gun do in the dark? ? ? ?

I figure when its time to go, its time to go. Having a Vaquero will serve just as well as an M249. If your number is up, it's up.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:16:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 3:19:28 PM EDT by wildearp]
That logic is similar to: I can carry a KaBar, but I choose this pen knife, because it can accomplish the same thing.

Kind of like tombstone courage.

Scenario: The SWAT team is 5 minutes out. If I hold my perimeter until they get there, I will be late to my PTA meeting. Aw, hell, he has only got a lever action deer rifle. I will just kick in the door and end this so I can make it to my PTA meeting. Long dirt nap follows.

The point many educated and highly trained persons are making is that if you have a better choice, why not take it?

Vaquero recommendations: File off that front sight, you probably don't need it anyhow. May as well just throw some black powder reloads in that Vaquero too. Heck, they must be good enough....

If you think there is ever any 'norm' to a defensive shooting, it puts you another step closer to losing the battle.

If you have time to shoot from the hip, you have time to get a flash front sight picture.

When my opponent's number is up, then his time is up. I will do my very best to go home alive and have a Jack Daniels and Coke in preparation for pissing on his grave.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 4:49:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 4:54:51 PM EDT by SouthernShark]
So wildearp, what are you one of those guys who walks around being "tactical" everywhere you go? You've got three tactical reloads, all with two round mag extensions, with a total of 65 rounds of ammo (figuring one mag in the gun and one in the chamber), a tactical flashlight, nightsights, a folding knife, and a pocket gun with a spare mag, just in case you need those extra 18 shots (you sure as hell aren't about to use no 5 shot revolver for backup....)? Then there is the AR-15 in the trunk (just in case you have to fight your way to safety, you ain't taking no chances), the body armor, the helmet, and the flares.......

Some people take all this far too seriously. One well placed shot from a .45 Colt is more than enough to end the argument. Even if one used black powder, a 250 grain projectile at 900+ fps is still more than enough to end the argument. Paranoia will destroy ya brother. I don't feel like I'm "taking chances" when I walk around with a six shooter. Hell I don't feel nervous when I walk around with nothing. But then I'm not a nervous guy.
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 8:28:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:
If you have time to shoot from the hip, you have time to get a flash front sight picture.


I wasn't recommending shooting from the hip, just pointing out the intrinsic pointing abilities of the SAA design, and the ability to hit what you look at rather easily. I was addressing the comment that I could not hit anything in the dark because of no sight picture with out night sights.

I am also not advocating the vaquero as my first choice, in most situations, but when I head up hunting or camping in bear country, that tiny 9mm isn't going to cut it for all of the problems I might face; the vaquero takes #2 spot for both two legged and four legged critters. Number one being the .338WM if I am hunting. Grizz don't slow down much for high speed low drag defensive pistols.
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