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Posted: 5/20/2003 9:46:44 AM EDT
Which would you rather have for a defensive gun, a .32 auto that carries 8 rounds, or a .22lr that holds 10 rounds?
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 10:42:42 AM EDT
That is a hard question. Reliability? Got any penetration data for them? It is going to be the one that penetrates most, to get to the vitals. And the if the one that penetrates most is the 32, then it will shove and crush more tissue in the process.

That is a hard question because it is neither really. 22 rimfires are good for rabbits and squirrels and hammering steel centerfire pistol targets to prove that you can put them over, but its a headshot game or a center-of-mass chest area magazine dump in a scary situation.

32 are pretty expensive to feed aren't they?

I really don't know
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 11:06:35 AM EDT
Personally would arm my self with a sling shot and a bag full of .50 cal marbles.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 11:54:56 AM EDT
Ok, Since I probably have contributed to some of this confusion, I thought I might chime in here...

I spent 3 years as an ER doc, during which I got to see people killed, maimed and generally fucked up with all manner of guns, knives, chainsaws, bottles and just about anything else you can think of. Our species is VERY adapt at hurting each other.

That being said, NO hand gun is a great killer of people --- Period, sorry guys. Hand guns kill via hemorrhage. Notice I said KILL, not stop. You can 'stop' someone by hitting their spinal column or their brain stem. Again, Stop does not equal Kill. Hemorrhage requires that A.you have a round that penetrates deep enough to hit something that bleeds (alot if you want them dead quick)B. after it(the bullet) gets there it is capable of doing the required/desired damage to get the bleeding started.

It is generally assummed and I believe rightly so, that the more muzzle energy = more penetration. However, Penentration is not the only requirement, we also need to do damage when the round gets 'there'. This is why we use HP/prefrag/etc ammo -- Bigger hole/more missles = higher chance of hitting something that bleeds and making a bigger hole in it.

So to answer your question: You can kill people with both. A 32 with FMJ MAY actually have less muzzle energy than a 22lr. If the energies are equal you should go with the 22 - more rounds, and less surface area will give you more penetration and more liklihood of hitting something vital. If the 32 has more muzzle energy use it. Remember, you need to know the velocities out of YOUR pistol not what the factory says.

As an aside, STAY AWAY FROM .25 autos - they have about 1/2 the energy of the 22 and I have seen way more pissed off 'victoms' of 25 shootings than fatalities. In fact most of the time the shooter is the one that gets admitted since the shootee beat the shit out of 'em.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:58:32 PM EDT
For personal defense, get a reliable pistol. Magazine capacity is great, but is useless if the pistol goes bang once and then stovepipes. Most .22 pocket pistols have a reputation as unreliable. The NAA .32 and the Keltec .32 are far more reliable than beretta and tarus .22lr's.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 8:39:47 PM EDT
Walther P22 W/ Stingers vs. Kel Tec P32 with Fed ball or Gold Dot's?
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 11:53:58 PM EDT
I would get a real gun.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 12:13:29 AM EDT
So this is like a nightmare scenario right?

Link Posted: 5/24/2003 12:51:23 AM EDT
4gma

That was great.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 6:27:30 AM EDT
take the .32..22 rimfires are dirty and jam much more frequently than a centerfire.i often carry my ppk/s .32.
i also work in a hospital and in my experiance(22 years)of x raying corpses in the mourqe and GS victems in the ER,Ive seen every thing from a .25 cal right between the eyes(DOA)to shotgun blasts to the chest,.38 to the head....point is its all bullit location PERIOD....
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 8:58:31 PM EDT
Be careful with the Walter P-22.

I bought one for my daughter thinking this will be perfect for her small hands. It turned out to be a total POS. I sent it back to S&W twice and it was still unreliable - failures to feed, failures to extract, saftey lever would put itself on 'safe' after about 4-5 rounds. Funny thing about it was that evertime it came back from S&W, it was worse and /or had a new problem. Yes, I tried every velocity and bullet type of ammo under the sun and it still sucked. So I traded it for another glock and gave my daughter a Ruger bearcat which works fine.

Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:40:58 AM EDT
4gma I have a walter p22 and experienced all the problems you have said. Here is the thing, I noticed that my slide binded a little to where the barrell met fixed to the frame. Now I didn't fluff and buff it. Instead I just put another 10,000 rounds through it and now it fires better a little dirty. After 2 cases or 20 bricks it is fine now. But I do know your fustrations. Mine was total crap and a big head ache for the first 5,000 rounds. Give it a case of amo for break in.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 6:15:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2003 6:15:59 AM EDT by Frankie]
Take the .22 and the .32 and go have fun with it at the range, the hills, etc. In other words, for me I would NEVER rely on either of those two calibers for protection unless of course they were the only thing handy at the time. Consider something more reliable and larger as was mentioned in a previous reply. I have two 1911 .45's and I will live by them and die by them. But that's just me. If you really want to defend yourself with the two calibers you mentioned, good luck.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:44:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 4gma:
Ok, Since I probably have contributed to some of this confusion, I thought I might chime in here...

I spent 3 years as an ER doc, during which I got to see people killed, maimed and generally fucked up with all manner of guns, knives, chainsaws, bottles and just about anything else you can think of. Our species is VERY adapt at hurting each other.

That being said, NO hand gun is a great killer of people --- Period, sorry guys. Hand guns kill via hemorrhage. Notice I said KILL, not stop. You can 'stop' someone by hitting their spinal column or their brain stem. Again, Stop does not equal Kill. Hemorrhage requires that A.you have a round that penetrates deep enough to hit something that bleeds (alot if you want them dead quick)B. after it(the bullet) gets there it is capable of doing the required/desired damage to get the bleeding started.

It is generally assummed and I believe rightly so, that the more muzzle energy = more penetration. However, Penentration is not the only requirement, we also need to do damage when the round gets 'there'. This is why we use HP/prefrag/etc ammo -- Bigger hole/more missles = higher chance of hitting something that bleeds and making a bigger hole in it.

So to answer your question: You can kill people with both. A 32 with FMJ MAY actually have less muzzle energy than a 22lr. If the energies are equal you should go with the 22 - more rounds, and less surface area will give you more penetration and more liklihood of hitting something vital. If the 32 has more muzzle energy use it. Remember, you need to know the velocities out of YOUR pistol not what the factory says.

As an aside, STAY AWAY FROM .25 autos - they have about 1/2 the energy of the 22 and I have seen way more pissed off 'victoms' of 25 shootings than fatalities. In fact most of the time the shooter is the one that gets admitted since the shootee beat the shit out of 'em.



The good doctor is correct.

I only saw the GSWs that made it to the OR, but I distinctly recall one instance being called down to the ER stat to tube a tough intubation who was shot a couple times in thehead with a 22. The rounds never made it through that big boy's skull.

If you have to use a mouse gun to protect your life because circumstances dictate deep concealment, your only hope of stopping your assailant other than screwing the gun into his ear is to empty that pea shooter into his nose where the thin flat sinus structures offer minimal resistance to penetration into the CNS.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 2:21:19 PM EDT
.45 acp w/ +P HP...no question itll stop sumone.and ya sure as hell bound to hit sumthing inside that bleeds..
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 8:16:14 PM EDT
You know what is a good gun that is reliable, low recoil, will never jam, great for small hands???

I think it's the hammerless S&W .32magnum revolver. It's a bit smaller than a .38spl, but the gun holds 6 rounds instead of 5. Plus, I believe they make the gun in a light alloy frame now like the model 642 etc...
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:55:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 3:58:06 PM EDT by AR15fan]
I'll always take a centerfire over a rimfire becuase centerfire primers are more reliable.

Of course .38 spec or 9mm are the smallest calibers I will carry for self defense.

PS..
I agree that the .32 H&R Magnum revolvers are a good choice for someone who is recoil shy or arthritic.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:32:58 AM EDT
I've got several CZ50s in 32 acp that sometimes I carry. They're are loaded with Hornady 85gr XTPs at 1000fps. I won't give the load out but its safe in my pistols. Never came across a 22 auto that size that was relibile enough. Have some Hirtenberger (Austrian) factory 71gr FMJ ammo that I've clocked out at over 1000fps out of the same CZs.

De Oppresso Liber
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:32:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frankie:
Take the .22 and the .32 and go have fun with it at the range, the hills, etc. In other words, for me I would NEVER rely on either of those two calibers for protection unless of course they were the only thing handy at the time. Consider something more reliable and larger as was mentioned in a previous reply. I have two 1911 .45's and I will live by them and die by them. But that's just me. If you really want to defend yourself with the two calibers you mentioned, good luck.



See, that's stupid. This is a common thing people always say.

There are PLENTY of times that I have to dress up in a nice set of slacks and a nice white shirt and tie, and it's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for me to conceal any normal handgun.

So...should I just go without any handgun for defense? Just carry a slingshot or a knife?

Hell no. It's those times that I carry a P32 in a pocket holster.

The first rule of a gun fight is TO HAVE A GUN. That's hard to do if your .45 is left at home and you don't have a pocket gun.

If you choose a .32 ACP, I would forgo the hollowpoints and use ball ammo. The hollow points cut typical penetration down to just a matter of inches. Ball still penetrates rather nicely.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:31:36 AM EDT
here's another choice....between my p22 walther
and my ruger 9mm.....the walther wins because I can hit what I aim at.....and for the walther critics....was that failure with old mags, cheap ammo, and yes the safety will move if you put your finger on it......
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:42:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 7:43:53 PM EDT by mr_camera_man]
Compare them in reality... I don't feel too bad about my P32 stoked with Cor-Bon's.

.22 Taurus versus Kel-Tec P32 chrony and gel tests.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:09:23 PM EDT
I asked the question to stir the pot a little.

When I mention the Walther P22, I was talking about my reliable P22 that has no problem feeding anything, including subsonic. There were magazine problems with some guns, and as with any gun, once you have a problem you hate it.

In need, when it is all you have on you, and you are in close proximity, which would you rather have? At very close range, which one will pentrate the skull with enough force to traumatize the brain tissue and nervous system, which one is going to be easier to consistently put rounds into the occular cavity? At arms length, grappling range, a knife can easily be placed into the throat and manipulated to incapacitate your opponent. Many reports have detailed trained individuals "stopping" people with suppressed .22 pistols. Not just "hitting" an unsuspecting target that you take by suprise, but being yards away from another person that is raising a weapon towards you, and having to place a few shots into the persons forehead to stop them before their weapon rises.

The original question asking between two choices. Of course you would rather have a full size .45 or 9mm with you at all times. But if clothing, location, surroundings prohibit you from carrying those, which?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:39:07 AM EDT
The P-32 is the ultimate always gun. It negates any excuse for going unarmed due to concealment issues.
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