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Posted: 3/26/2006 12:53:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 12:55:01 PM EDT by ColtM4]
Thought you guys might want to know about some developments from Sig and Glock .

First is for you Glock GAP fans , looks like NYPD ESU is seriously looking at the Glock 37 in .45 GAP. Its been in testing for a couple of months. Who knows if it makes the trials it could finally put the GAP round over the top thus making ammo companies produce more GAP rounds.

Second is for Sig fans , it appears as if Sig may be coming out with a new design or variation of their pro model in .45 acp for the upcoming military pistols trials. Although interesting I think HK might have it in the bag. The only wildcard is if S&W can get the M&P45 out in time.

Oh and I almost forgot about Kahr , they are putting a trailer at the NYPD outdoor Range in order to rebuild every single K9 in service ( about 8,000 )

stay safe
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:18:30 PM EDT
I thought that the requirements of the JSP pretty much excluded the M&P from consideration? (Need for a configuration with an external safety and whatnot.)
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:27:55 PM EDT
Even the M&P they market for LEO and the commercial market will not fire with out a mag. That would cut it from the running as well.

I too think HK has it in the bag too. To be honest they need this contract big time! They are purely not selling any guns, company is still run by an old general who has the opinion that civilians don't need the guns they produce. Unfortunately to run their military projects they need to make profits in the commercial sector, something thier not doing well in at all. Same story at the SHOT.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:05:54 PM EDT
What about the infamous "restrike" issue? Wont that also knock the S&W M&P out of the running along with many others?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:26:05 PM EDT
I hope SIG gets the contract and kills off H friken K.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:32:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
I hope SIG gets the contract and kills off H friken K.



Did HK kill your puppy or something?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:53:27 AM EDT
I also hope SIG gets the contract. But thats because I love SIGs.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 5:59:45 AM EDT
You know while there are those on this board that don't like Sigs new rifle at least they're offering a rifle in a configuration that we enjoy to the general public. That's a lot more than H&K is doing. I love my H&K compact I'm not that enthused by their management.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:01:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtM4:
Oh and I almost forgot about Kahr , they are putting a trailer at the NYPD outdoor Range in order to rebuild every single K9 in service ( about 8,000 )



This is the second reference I've seen re: the Kahr K9 & NYPD - So what's the issue and what's the fix?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:18:53 AM EDT
I think Sig already created the finest fighting-man's pistol: the 220. I hope Sig wins the competition, I really do, but price might be an issue. MJD
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:27:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
Even the M&P they market for LEO and the commercial market will not fire with out a mag. That would cut it from the running as well.

I too think HK has it in the bag too. To be honest they need this contract big time! They are purely not selling any guns, company is still run by an old general who has the opinion that civilians don't need the guns they produce. Unfortunately to run their military projects they need to make profits in the commercial sector, something thier not doing well in at all. Same story at the SHOT.



I am of a VERY solid hope that H&K gets the contract - it will benefit all gun owners. "Why's that, 53Vortec?" - well you see, if they win the contract, they will in all probability build a facility in the US to produce them in (this has happened with every other weapons contract given to a foreign firm as far as I know). That would give us an H&K facility in CONUS, which could produce other H&K weapons for US civilian sales (no Import Ban worries as is the current case with H&K). SIG already has such a facility, so I don't see SIG winning the contract benefitting us nearly as much as H&K.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:30:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cross_Steel:
You know while there are those on this board that don't like Sigs new rifle at least they're offering a rifle in a configuration that we enjoy to the general public. That's a lot more than H&K is doing. I love my H&K compact I'm not that enthused by their management.



H&K management has NOTHING to do with the availability of their weapons to us - you can thank Bush Sr. for that. See my above post. I'm not an H&K apoligist by any means, but I see nowhere that they have screwed we the gun buying public.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:58:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
I hope SIG gets the contract and kills off H friken K.



Did HK kill your puppy or something?



Naaah, I just think they are the most anti-civlion gun company...right up there with Colt. They crap on us and the 2nd ammd.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:04:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtM4:

Oh and I almost forgot about Kahr , they are putting a trailer at the NYPD outdoor Range in order to rebuild every single K9 in service ( about 8,000 )

stay safe



I thought everyone loved Kahrs??? So now it is official, they have issues??? Please elaborate if you can. Thanks

chissel
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:06:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
Even the M&P they market for LEO and the commercial market will not fire with out a mag. That would cut it from the running as well.



Sorry Jake,
That is not the case. If you are leo you can specify with your order if you want a mag disconnect or not.

The MP40's you see at your local fun store are probably defaulted to civillian sale specifications.

chissel
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:19:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 12:20:15 PM EDT by ColtM4]

Originally Posted By Chissel:

Originally Posted By ColtM4:

Oh and I almost forgot about Kahr , they are putting a trailer at the NYPD outdoor Range in order to rebuild every single K9 in service ( about 8,000 )

stay safe



I thought everyone loved Kahrs??? So now it is official, they have issues??? Please elaborate if you can. Thanks

chissel



posted it a while back :

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=26812

Well looks like the Kahr / NYPD drama continues. The NYPD has removed the Kahr K9 9mm pistol from the list of authorized off duty pistols and recalling all pistols after about a year and a half of serious problems of which I will outline in bullet format :

1. There have been 46 catostrophic structures failures with the K9
2. These failures have not been isolated to a single part.
3. There have been many , many parts breaking after only a couple hundred rounds fired.
4. Major quality control lapses , such as 40 caliber parts in the 9mm K9 .
5. Extrememly poor quality springs on the gun such a the recoil spring which often needs to be replaced after only 300-400 rds.
6. The trigger spring taking a set down to as low as 4 lbs !!!

Anyway it appears as if Kahr has gone over FTU's head and hired a big shot to lobby for them at One Police Plaza . So as of now there will be no action taken , no massive recall during a "moritorium" to reevaluate the situation.

I think Kahrs problem is that they got too big too fast . They made an excellent line up of guns. I think they just need to slow down and re -group.

Anyway just thought you all would like some info

take care
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:30:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By highwayman:
I think Sig already created the finest fighting-man's pistol: the 220. I hope Sig wins the competition, I really do, but price might be an issue. MJD



I'm pretty excited about the new 220 carry in SAO...

The 220 is a phenomenal pistol, my favorite .45 out there...
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:49:33 PM EDT
The Smith and Wesson M&P can't partake in the JCP trials. It lacks way to many required features for the JCP. The mag safety, no external safety, no single and double action firing, and such.

I look at this as a steer in the right direction as I think safetyless DAO/striker fired pistols are useless. JMO.

I think it's going to come down to HK or SIG. The HK45 looks very promising though.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:50:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Guru:

Originally Posted By highwayman:
I think Sig already created the finest fighting-man's pistol: the 220. I hope Sig wins the competition, I really do, but price might be an issue. MJD



I'm pretty excited about the new 220 carry in SAO...

The 220 is a phenomenal pistol, my favorite .45 out there...



M4Guru,

What about the HK45 currently under development? Have you had a chance to take a look at it?

Thank you.

Justin
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:58:56 PM EDT
The specs put out from the military was essentially a "wish list" of things they are interested in. From what I heard from executives in these companies are that all the specs are off the table and anything goes with the exception that the pistol must be .45 acp.

Double strike capability , manual safety etc.... who knows how it will turn out. I must say that HK is ideally set up to take this. they have everything in place ad with the new HK45 coming out it looks good for them. s someone above stated if HK wins I think we win as well.



Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:53:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 3:56:46 PM EDT by DeanSpeir]
 


Originally Posted By ColtM4:
First is for you Glock GAP fans , looks like NYPD ESU is seriously looking at the Glock 37 in .45 GAP. Its been in testing for a couple of months. Who knows if it makes the trials it could finally put the GAP round over the top thus making ammo companies produce more GAP rounds.



Oh and I almost forgot about Kahr , they are putting a trailer at the NYPD outdoor Range in order to rebuild every single K9 in service ( about 8,000 )


The Kahr trailer(s) are scheduled to be up and running NLT 1 April… and, no, this is not an April Fool's Day gag… but they are not "in place yet."

On the .45 GAP issue, while it is true that NY ESU has been looking at .45 caliber sidearms for a long time now, it is most assuredly limited to .45 ACP. Well-placed sources have stated that ESU has looked at several platforms "without resolution" at this time.

Two sources, intimately involved with selection and procurement, state separately that "no one is looking at a GAP." They both feel that some MOS may be "wishing/stroking" over them, but the Job has not made any requests, started any projects, spent any money nor put anything on paper about a .45 GAP at this time.

The sources are solid and are in a position to know and influence decision making.

BTW: in a subsequent post you state "There have been 46 catostrophic structures failures with the K9." Can you provide greater details? Do you simply mean that they "break" and are Code H, unrepairable, or that they come apart while firing?


• Dean, jus' visitin' from The Gun Zone
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:00:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DeanSpeir:
 


Originally Posted By ColtM4:
First is for you Glock GAP fans , looks like NYPD ESU is seriously looking at the Glock 37 in .45 GAP. Its been in testing for a couple of months. Who knows if it makes the trials it could finally put the GAP round over the top thus making ammo companies produce more GAP rounds.



Oh and I almost forgot about Kahr , they are putting a trailer at the NYPD outdoor Range in order to rebuild every single K9 in service ( about 8,000 )


The Kahr trailer(s) are scheduled to be up and running NLT 1 April… and, no, this is not an April Fool's Day gag… but they are not "in place yet."

On the .45 GAP issue, while it is true that NY ESU has been looking at .45 caliber sidearms for a long time now, it is most assuredly limited to .45 ACP. Well-placed sources have stated that ESU has looked at several platforms "without resolution" at this time.

Two sources, intimately involved with selection and procurement, state separately that "no one is looking at a GAP." They both feel that some MOS may be "wishing/stroking" over them, but the Job has not made any requests, started any projects, spent any money nor put anything on paper about a .45 GAP at this time.

The sources are solid and are in a position to know and influence decision making.

BTW: in a subsequent post you state "There have been 46 catostrophic structures failures with the K9." Can you provide greater details? Do you simply mean that they "break" and are Code H, unrepairable, or that they come apart while firing?


• Dean, jus' visitin' from The Gun Zone



Sounds interesting , I must tell you also that sometimes things go on at the outdoor range that some dont know about ( I've worked there for 11 yrs ) .

As far as the Kahr is concerned the info I've been given is that they are irreparable breaks causing the gun to immediately stop functioning not KB's.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:51:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
I hope SIG gets the contract and kills off H friken K.



Did HK kill your puppy or something?



Naaah, I just think they are the most anti-civlion gun company...right up there with Colt. They crap on us and the 2nd ammd.



As long as they keep selling me USPs and 6920s, they can crap all they like.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 5:30:47 PM EDT
Is Colt going to reintroduce the Double Eagle?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:42:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By M4Guru:

Originally Posted By highwayman:
I think Sig already created the finest fighting-man's pistol: the 220. I hope Sig wins the competition, I really do, but price might be an issue. MJD



I'm pretty excited about the new 220 carry in SAO...

The 220 is a phenomenal pistol, my favorite .45 out there...



M4Guru,

What about the HK45 currently under development? Have you had a chance to take a look at it?

Thank you.

Justin



I have only seen pictures, but from folks I trust it's going to be the new standard for full-size .45 combat pistols, to quote THE pistolsmith of 1911's, "...the 1911 of this century. It's all I'm going to carry."

I hope the hype is true...but most of allI hope HK respects the general shooting public when it's released unlike some of it's better products lately.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:53:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
I also hope SIG gets the contract. But thats because I love SIGs.



+1 for Sig lovers

H&K's are OK, just not interested in them.

wganz

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:45:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtM4:
posted it a while back :

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=26812

Well looks like the Kahr / NYPD drama continues. The NYPD has removed the Kahr K9 9mm pistol from the list of authorized off duty pistols and recalling all pistols after about a year and a half of serious problems of which I will outline in bullet format :

1. There have been 46 catostrophic structures failures with the K9
2. These failures have not been isolated to a single part.
3. There have been many , many parts breaking after only a couple hundred rounds fired.
4. Major quality control lapses , such as 40 caliber parts in the 9mm K9 .
5. Extrememly poor quality springs on the gun such a the recoil spring which often needs to be replaced after only 300-400 rds.
6. The trigger spring taking a set down to as low as 4 lbs !!!

Anyway it appears as if Kahr has gone over FTU's head and hired a big shot to lobby for them at One Police Plaza . So as of now there will be no action taken , no massive recall during a "moritorium" to reevaluate the situation.

I think Kahrs problem is that they got too big too fast . They made an excellent line up of guns. I think they just need to slow down and re -group.

Anyway just thought you all would like some info

take care



Hmm. thanks for the info.

Almost makes you wonder what those NYPD guys are doing to their guns? First it was the Glock 19 issues...One of the most reliable designs (Glock) in their most reliable caliber (9mm) in one of their most common and respected models (G19) and yet after reading about the problems the NYPD had with them, you would think they were complete POSs.

Now they are having problems with Kahr's. Another generally well thought of design and the K9 probably being their most reliable model and again, NYPD is having problems with them.

Maybe it's just a matter of how many they actually buy? You read about 46 catastrophic structures failures and you think OMG but out of 8000 pistols, that's not really that many. What does that come to...less then .6%? Higher then I think any off us would like to see but not an unrealistic failure rate I would think?

I really don't know so I'm just thinking out loud but I have to wonder what, if anything else, is at work here causing the NYPD to have the kind of issues they've had with some really good pistols?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:25:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cgv69:

Originally Posted By ColtM4:
posted it a while back :

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=26812

Well looks like the Kahr / NYPD drama continues. The NYPD has removed the Kahr K9 9mm pistol from the list of authorized off duty pistols and recalling all pistols after about a year and a half of serious problems of which I will outline in bullet format :

1. There have been 46 catostrophic structures failures with the K9
2. These failures have not been isolated to a single part.
3. There have been many , many parts breaking after only a couple hundred rounds fired.
4. Major quality control lapses , such as 40 caliber parts in the 9mm K9 .
5. Extrememly poor quality springs on the gun such a the recoil spring which often needs to be replaced after only 300-400 rds.
6. The trigger spring taking a set down to as low as 4 lbs !!!

Anyway it appears as if Kahr has gone over FTU's head and hired a big shot to lobby for them at One Police Plaza . So as of now there will be no action taken , no massive recall during a "moritorium" to reevaluate the situation.

I think Kahrs problem is that they got too big too fast . They made an excellent line up of guns. I think they just need to slow down and re -group.

Anyway just thought you all would like some info

take care



Hmm. thanks for the info.

Almost makes you wonder what those NYPD guys are doing to their guns? First it was the Glock 19 issues...One of the most reliable designs (Glock) in their most reliable caliber (9mm) in one of their most common and respected models (G19) and yet after reading about the problems the NYPD had with them, you would think they were complete POSs.

Now they are having problems with Kahr's. Another generally well thought of design and the K9 probably being their most reliable model and again, NYPD is having problems with them.

Maybe it's just a matter of how many they actually buy? You read about 46 catastrophic structures failures and you think OMG but out of 8000 pistols, that's not really that many. What does that come to...less then .6%? Higher then I think any off us would like to see but not an unrealistic failure rate I would think?

I really don't know so I'm just thinking out loud but I have to wonder what, if anything else, is at work here causing the NYPD to have the kind of issues they've had with some really good pistols?



You bring up a valid question .... why so many problems with these particular guns that are established suceessful systems ???

The NYPD authorized the Sig P226 DAO for about 5 years then stopped further use because of rusting problems on/in the slide and smaller parts of the frame. Afetr Sig started making the slides in black stainless and dealing with the rusting problem the gun was re-authorized.

So thats another example to think about , here's my personal take on the question , I believe that because no one anywhere shoots as many rounds through guns in as many guns there tends to be situations where a product may not hold up. Now just as important is that most police officers especially in this region havr little or no interest or experience ith firearms . This can cause maintenance issues and user error issues.

The Glock situation had to do with the ammo , we were using underpowered WW White Box 115 gr. FMJ with much fluctuation in quality control. The Glock as you know was developed around the NATO round which is right around +P level pressure. Thus the malfunctions , once the ammo was changed to the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P the problem went away.

As far as the Kahr is concerned though I believe they grew too fast and their quality started to suffer.

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:45:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtM4:
in order to rebuild every single K9 in service ( about 8,000 )



We can rebuild him



Sorry, saw K9 and thought of "Million $ Man" and a "Robodog"
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:24:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtM4:
You bring up a valid question .... why so many problems with these particular guns that are established suceessful systems ???

The NYPD authorized the Sig P226 DAO for about 5 years then stopped further use because of rusting problems on/in the slide and smaller parts of the frame. Afetr Sig started making the slides in black stainless and dealing with the rusting problem the gun was re-authorized.

So thats another example to think about , here's my personal take on the question , I believe that because no one anywhere shoots as many rounds through guns in as many guns there tends to be situations where a product may not hold up. Now just as important is that most police officers especially in this region havr little or no interest or experience ith firearms . This can cause maintenance issues and user error issues.

The Glock situation had to do with the ammo , we were using underpowered WW White Box 115 gr. FMJ with much fluctuation in quality control. The Glock as you know was developed around the NATO round which is right around +P level pressure. Thus the malfunctions , once the ammo was changed to the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P the problem went away.

As far as the Kahr is concerned though I believe they grew too fast and their quality started to suffer.




Interesting stuff. I never heard that the NYPD worked out their G19 issues. I use a lot of WWB in 115gr (Wallyworld Value packs at that) and have never had any issues with it in my Glocks or any other 9mm handgun. It's my main practice\training round. I realize though that "a lot" for me isn't even a drop in the bucket for how many rounds the NYPD probably goes through.

I think you are right about most of those guys not being "gun guys". I would bet it would be safe to say that the average NYPD cop has never shot any gun outside of their yearly qualifications and other then wiping down the outside of it, have no clue about maintenance. Scary really
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:35:15 PM EDT
I think H&K has it by a mile.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:57:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 12:59:04 PM EDT by MonkeyGrip]

I look at this as a steer in the right direction as I think safetyless DAO/striker fired pistols are useless. JMO.


Right On Brother!

I just sold my XD collection and am not looking back. I suppose I'll have to get my P228 coated in NP3 to keep it from rusting like the galvanic cell that it is, though, so I can use it as my new "boat/swamp/flood" gun. At least until I buy a Ruger GP100.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:09:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Guru:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By M4Guru:

Originally Posted By highwayman:
I think Sig already created the finest fighting-man's pistol: the 220. I hope Sig wins the competition, I really do, but price might be an issue. MJD



I'm pretty excited about the new 220 carry in SAO...

The 220 is a phenomenal pistol, my favorite .45 out there...



M4Guru,

What about the HK45 currently under development? Have you had a chance to take a look at it?

Thank you.

Justin



I have only seen pictures, but from folks I trust it's going to be the new standard for full-size .45 combat pistols, to quote THE pistolsmith of 1911's, "...the 1911 of this century. It's all I'm going to carry."

I hope the hype is true...but most of allI hope HK respects the general shooting public when it's released unlike some of it's better products lately.



Thanks M4Guru. I have read that quote previously, and I believe it is attributed to Mr. LAV. KH tends to agree with Mr. LAV.

IM inbound. Take care and God bless.

Cast or tab,

Justin

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