Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why have you not recommend USPSA and/or IDPA?  Not as a replacement for handgun defense classes (which are most important), but as a valuable way to gain gun handling and shooting skills as well as tons of gun knowledge through direct interaction with defense oriented, experienced shooters?   Our local Sherrif's dept. has, and recently stated to our USPSA group that the added skills aquired through USPSA helped in a recent defense shooting incedent.   Because those are games. The only thing that's not "a game" is real life gun-play which is almost non-exsistant even for LEOs and miltary.  All there is is "games".   By offering no alternative to readily available USPSA and IDPA you are by default advocating a "DO NOTHING" approach to defense training.  No game is perfect, but play you must.  I'd feel safer if everyone with a handgun took some good defense training classes AND participated in USPSA or IDPA for a year or more.

I know for sure he's not advocating a "do nothing attitude" because he trains regulairly with Defensive Edge and other training courses.  He probably sees that as a better use of his time and resources.  I think IDPA would be fun but a better choice would be a course taught by someone competent.  I'm guessing that's his point and I'm just giving him 3rd party credibility.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why have you not recommend USPSA and/or IDPA?  Not as a replacement for handgun defense classes (which are most important), but as a valuable way to gain gun handling and shooting skills as well as tons of gun knowledge through direct interaction with defense oriented, experienced shooters?   Our local Sherrif's dept. has, and recently stated to our USPSA group that the added skills aquired through USPSA helped in a recent defense shooting incedent.   Because those are games. The only thing that's not "a game" is real life gun-play which is almost non-exsistant even for LEOs and miltary.  All there is is "games".   By offering no alternative to readily available USPSA and IDPA you are by default advocating a "DO NOTHING" approach to defense training.  No game is perfect, but play you must.  I'd feel safer if everyone with a handgun took some good defense training classes AND participated in USPSA or IDPA for a year or more.   I know for sure he's not advocating a "do nothing attitude" because he trains regulairly with Defensive Edge and other training courses.  He probably sees that as a better use of his time and resources.  I think IDPA would be fun but a better choice would be a course taught by someone competent.  I'm guessing that's his point and I'm just giving him 3rd party credibility.

JJ thats kinda my point.

The fact remains IDPA and USPSA don't stress doing it tacticly correct. I'm aware of one match thats held once a year that does in fact stress doing it tacticly correct and thats the Defensive Edge 5 Gun match.

I watched a couple IDPA matches out at my club with the intention of maybe going out and shooting them eventually. I didn't like what I saw at all and decided that it wasn't the way I wanted to go to get more range time to see where my skills are at. What I saw at those IDPA matches was a game that rewarded the gamers and penalised the guys that did things tacticly correct, I want no part of that. Instead I spend my time working with the wisconsin crew at training sessions, taking classes and working on my skills when I go to the range.

I agree with everything you said there.  However, there's really isn't any other opportunity where I'm at to do much training at all except for our local USPSA, which isn't very "race gun" oriented so it's not a bad way to gain gun handling and shooting skills.  Like I said, real defense training classes are mandatory, but we've nothing within hundreds of miles, so you end up paying significant bucks to do those things on a regular basis.  The local USPSA guys are defense oriented so it's as good as it gets for organized trigger time and an oportunity to meet like minded individuals and share some ideas.  I believe my local USPSA club offers useful training oportunities and I believe the time I've spent with them has helped to improve my defense capabilities significantly so I'm suggesting that others look into this as well.  I agree that there are aspects of USPSA and IDPA that are potentially counter productive, which is why I stated that real defense classes are most important.  My point is that I think USPSA and IDPA are very useful tools in light of the theme and deserve mention.  I don't think they are bad enough to completely be avoided particularly if there are few other alternatives.  

Quoted: Quoted: Great post. However, I wouldnt rule out trying a Browning HiPower as a first handgun either. Superior single action trigger + hi capacity 9mm firepower. Hi-Powers are nice, but I had to spend quite a bit of $$$ to get a good trigger pull.

Doesn't have to be all that expensive.

Remove mag disconnect for $0.00

Shoot a lot...... you were going to do that anyway.....

= nice trigger

Quoted: I agree with everything you said there.  However, there's really isn't any other opportunity where I'm at to do much training at all except for our local USPSA, which isn't very "race gun" oriented so it's not a bad way to gain gun handling and shooting skills.  Like I said, real defense training classes are mandatory, but we've nothing within hundreds of miles, so you end up paying significant bucks to do those things on a regular basis.  The local USPSA guys are defense oriented so it's as good as it gets for organized trigger time and an oportunity to meet like minded individuals and share some ideas.  I believe my local USPSA club offers useful training oportunities and I believe the time I've spent with them has helped to improve my defense capabilities significantly so I'm suggesting that others look into this as well.  I agree that there are aspects of USPSA and IDPA that are potentially counter productive, which is why I stated that real defense classes are most important.  My point is that I think USPSA and IDPA are very useful tools in light of the theme and deserve mention.  I don't think they are bad enough to completely be avoided particularly if there are few other alternatives.

I know guys at the club level of IDPA that are very serious about running it the same way you would fight. You start with your gun in whatever condition it came to the range with you in, even if that means locked case and unloaded mags. Use of cover, etc. Unfortunately they are in Arizona.

Quoted: Quoted: Please stop with the Hi Powers and revolvers.  If someone asked you what car to buy would you tell them a 1935 Plymouth was the only way to go?   G And a 1911 is ok?  That's another 24 years earlier. Good post combat jack.  I'm not sure I agree 100% with your pistol selection either but you can't really go wrong with those two.  It does depend on the shooter though.  My wife cannot pull back the slide of a 1911.  She can on my Beretta.  Probably could on a glock too I would imagine. I agree with starting them on a .22, at least for the first session.  Or first part of the first session. ASU1911, what does a DA/ SA action have to do with not being loaded?  They're designed so that they can be loaded for carrying.  Just like any of the other pistols.  You lost me on that one.  I understand why people don't like that first DA pull though.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark, and guess that your wife is trying to rack the slide via: the old "slingshot" method. ?
Have you had her try it with the hand over slide method? With that method, she would be using a pushing/pulling approach, with quite a bit more hand on the slide, and involving bigger muscle groups. I have trouble imagining any adult being unable to rack the slide on a servicable modern auto using this method. If I am correct, and you want details about what I'm talking about, I can IM you more info.

Sorry for a hijack. I just love seeing women shoot 1911s.

I think IDPA and other shooting games can be beneficial if approached with the right attitude. I will be starting IDPA this year. I'm approaching it with some specific goals in mind. I want it to be a chance for me to run drills that I have learned in gun school against a timer, and against changing targets/scenarios. I could care less if I score well.
I personally get frustrated by people that come to training for no other reason than to improve their ability to shoot in a game. I go to these expensive and time consuming classes to learn how to save my, or a family members life, and to be able to win a gunfight. The gamers are a detriment to the seriousness of these courses. I feel like my time and money are being wasted when questions are being asked about how a certain skill will translate into a game.
That's my vent. I feel that IDPA has a place, and can be very valuable as a training tool when approached with the proper mindset, and if the participant can differentiate between what part is game, and what part is essential in a gunfight. I would recommend real training before getting into IDPA if at all possible.
The whole reason for owning firearms is to defend your life and liberty. They are not merely toys, or sporting tools.

Don't agree with the pistol choices, but the rest of the advice is dead on.

Revolvers are quite capable defensive handguns, and if you can master the semi-auto, you can certainly learn the effectively reload and use a DA revolver to fight.

I really do not agree with your pistol choices for a beginner.  A Glock or 1911 are not the best suited for a lot of beginners, esp for carry.  A lot of the new guys that want to carry have some idea about guns to start with, and can adapt to a Glock or 1911.  But the biggest crowd of new gun folks I see are women.  

A local range has a Women's Wed free shoot.  If you think a revolver is bad choice you should go to one of these events and watch.  Just this past Wed I saw a lady with a 2 in snubbie S&W put every shot in the black DA at 15 yards.

When I have introduced new people to shooting I have found the simple action of a revolver to be a positive, including my 3 children.  You also have to think about cleaning.  Should you tell a new person to shooting to buy a weapon that you have to pull the trigger to strip.  Should you tell them to buy a pistol that you have to push down the recoil plug, turn the bushing, watch out for the spring, pull out the slide stop..... only to have them ask you what a recoil plug is.  Not in my book.  

These new women shooters, how are they going to carry, IWB, OWB, VM II?? Nope a purse. You want a Glock rolling around in a purse??  

And lets do a reality check, most shooting happen in 10 feet and fire 2 rounds.  And most of the time the gunfire, even if it hits nothing, convinces the attackers to flee.  

For an experienced shooter or someone in a more high risk area, yea, I would answer diff.

Quoted: I really do not agree with your pistol choices for a beginner.  A Glock or 1911 are not the best suited for a lot of beginners, esp for carry.  A lot of the new guys that want to carry have some idea about guns to start with, and can adapt to a Glock or 1911.  But the biggest crowd of new gun folks I see are women.   A local range has a Women's Wed free shoot.  If you think a revolver is bad choice you should go to one of these events and watch.  Just this past Wed I saw a lady with a 2 in snubbie S&W put every shot in the black DA at 15 yards. When I have introduced new people to shooting I have found the simple action of a revolver to be a positive, including my 3 children.  You also have to think about cleaning.  Should you tell a new person to shooting to buy a weapon that you have to pull the trigger to strip.  Should you tell them to buy a pistol that you have to push down the recoil plug, turn the bushing, watch out for the spring, pull out the slide stop..... only to have them ask you what a recoil plug is.  Not in my book.   These new women shooters, how are they going to carry, IWB, OWB, VM II?? Nope a purse. You want a Glock rolling around in a purse??   And lets do a reality check, most shooting happen in 10 feet and fire 2 rounds.  And most of the time the gunfire, even if it hits nothing, convinces the attackers to flee.   For an experienced shooter or someone in a more high risk area, yea, I would answer diff.

Good points, I have nothing against Revolvers either.  I think they're simple to use.  You do have to reload more but I have a colt snubbie in my car for defense right now, with 3 speedloaders ready to go.  Like you say, if you can master an auto, you can certainly drop a cylinder, insert rounds and twist the cap and lock cylinder back in place.  It is not rocket science.  I personally prefer an auto though.  But there's no way I'd put my wife on the range with a 1911 at this point, much less a defensive situation.  Unless it was a 9mm and maybe a commander version or something a little lighter.  Just my opinion.  But the more they go, the more they could probably handle something like that, as goes with anyone.

I havent read page 2 or 3, but you should recommend some reasonable defensive ammo

9mm  -
Speer Gold Dot 147gr
Winchester 124 or 147 gr Ranger T's   RA9T or RA9AT
and a few others

40 Cal
Speer Gold Dot 180gr
Winchester 180gr Ranger T's   RA40T

45
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr
Winchester 230gr Rangert T  (RA45T???)
and a few others

Recommended Cheap 1911 - Springfield Armory Mil-spec
Better 1911 - Loaded Sprinfield Armory or any Kimber WITHOUT the external extractor
Mini 1911's (4" or shorter barrels) are not necessarily reliable

Somewhere in the Ammo forum is a topic stating the best defensive rounds, but Its not a sticky so i didnt find it.

Quoted: Don't agree with the pistol choices, but the rest of the advice is dead on. Revolvers are quite capable defensive handguns, and if you can master the semi-auto, you can certainly learn the effectively reload and use a DA revolver to fight.

Pretty much.

I'll admit I'm still getting used to the DA-to-SA transition in a double tap on my Sig 226.  Shooting in DA is fine, and shooting in SA is fine - it's just I have a problem on the second shot when quickly firing that first and second round, with the second round dropping a couple of inches from where it should be.

That will be overcome shortly with training.

Quoted: I really do not agree with your pistol choices for a beginner.  A Glock or 1911 are not the best suited for a lot of beginners, esp for carry.  A lot of the new guys that want to carry have some idea about guns to start with, and can adapt to a Glock or 1911.  But the biggest crowd of new gun folks I see are women.   A local range has a Women's Wed free shoot.  If you think a revolver is bad choice you should go to one of these events and watch.  Just this past Wed I saw a lady with a 2 in snubbie S&W put every shot in the black DA at 15 yards. When I have introduced new people to shooting I have found the simple action of a revolver to be a positive, including my 3 children.  You also have to think about cleaning.  Should you tell a new person to shooting to buy a weapon that you have to pull the trigger to strip.  Should you tell them to buy a pistol that you have to push down the recoil plug, turn the bushing, watch out for the spring, pull out the slide stop..... only to have them ask you what a recoil plug is.  Not in my book.   These new women shooters, how are they going to carry, IWB, OWB, VM II?? Nope a purse. You want a Glock rolling around in a purse??   And lets do a reality check, most shooting happen in 10 feet and fire 2 rounds.  And most of the time the gunfire, even if it hits nothing, convinces the attackers to flee.   For an experienced shooter or someone in a more high risk area, yea, I would answer diff.

While we live in our own little world sometimes and we tend to choose combat handguns as a defensive weapon, it should be noted that most people that want to defend themselves are nowhere near as "tactical" as we are in their mindset or choices.

Indeed, many women do seem to prefer revolvers.

I say if you want to have a defensive handgun for carry or home protection, as long as you're legal, God bless you.  Not everybody is in the position to carry a full size auto pistol with multiple magazines and a Surefire light on their belt, and most people do not want to, or at least will learn not to want to after doing it for a while and realizing what a pain in the ass it is.

Quoted: when our store got robbed a couple of yrs back (strong arm, through the front door, rifle present) there were 3 bad guys...better to have too much ammo than not enough

And yet there will still  be the LAZY SLOBS who insist a .38 snub and the 5 rounds in it are "good enough."

Quoted: Quoted: when our store got robbed a couple of yrs back (strong arm, through the front door, rifle present) there were 3 bad guys...better to have too much ammo than not enough And yet there will still  be the LAZY SLOBS who insist a .38 snub and the 5 rounds in it are "good enough."

And, there will be anecdotal evidence of people whose guns failed them, with plenty of ammo left in the mag. It goes both ways, on principle I agree with you (hence I carry a semi-auto with plenty of ammo), but every shooting is its own unique dilemna.

A man named Zane Wilson, elderly gun & militaria dealer in Columbus, Ohio died 2 years ago when 2 teenage boys, 1 armed, attempted to rob him. He got off one shot from a hi-cap 1911, slightly wounding one of the boys. His second shot misfed, Zane died trying to clear that jam.

Snubbie .38 might not have saved him, but it damn sure wouldn't have jammed.

Quoted: Quoted: when our store got robbed a couple of yrs back (strong arm, through the front door, rifle present) there were 3 bad guys...better to have too much ammo than not enough And yet there will still  be the LAZY SLOBS who insist a .38 snub and the 5 rounds in it are "good enough."

heh, heh, it's "good enough" to back up my main pistol!

Quoted: Quoted: Snubbie .38 might not have saved him, but it damn sure wouldn't have jammed. Sorry, I've seen MANY revolvers misfire and lock up. Guns carried every day and come qualification day guess what, they don't work. No matter what your equipment if you don't take care of it it won't take care of you.

Amen.  I've personally owned 2 revolvers (1 S&W and 1 Rossi) that locked up (the Rossi after its very first round) & required a gunsmith to correct... needless to say, I don't own either one now. *



* CAVEAT:  Admittedly, that is two out of dozens of revolvers I have owned...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: when our store got robbed a couple of yrs back (strong arm, through the front door, rifle present) there were 3 bad guys...better to have too much ammo than not enough And yet there will still  be the LAZY SLOBS who insist a .38 snub and the 5 rounds in it are "good enough." And, there will be anecdotal evidence of people whose guns failed them, with plenty of ammo left in the mag. It goes both ways, on principle I agree with you (hence I carry a semi-auto with plenty of ammo), but every shooting is its own unique dilemna. A man named Zane Wilson, elderly gun & militaria dealer in Columbus, Ohio died 2 years ago when 2 teenage boys, 1 armed, attempted to rob him. He got off one shot from a hi-cap 1911, slightly wounding one of the boys. His second shot misfed, Zane died trying to clear that jam. Snubbie .38 might not have saved him, but it damn sure wouldn't have jammed.

I am not trying to speak ill of the victim in this example, but this does strike me as an excellent example of why most defensive pistol courses stress the importance of obtaining cover during an attack, constantly moving out of the attacker's "line of attack", quickly clearing jams and malfunctions, and always carrying a BUG. Constant movement makes you a harder target to hit, the cover will help deflect incoming rounds and quick transition to a BUG could easily save your life in the event your main pistol experiences a problem. It is impossible to say that any ONE thing could have saved this man's life, but complete training as suggested by others above would definately have given him a better chance in the fight. THE MAIN PISTOL YOU CARRY IS ONLY ONE PART OF THE EQUATION! Your training, experience, will to live, practiced motor skills, and preparedness for anything (i.e BUG) are equally important to the main pistol you carry.

And for the record, some people like revolvers and some like autoloaders, the final decision is one that an individual has to make based on their needs and abilities. Try both before you buy. There is no wrong choice, I have seen "old timers" with a model 10 smith out perform current LEOs. Does that mean the current LEO should switch to a revolver? Heck no, more training is what was needed on the part of the current LEO.

a thousand rounds per month, huh?