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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:45:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:47:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:02:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ASUsax:



+1

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:09:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:11:52 AM EDT
Sounds to me like the HK USP 45 Tactical is already exactly what they need.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:14:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:25:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JTAC_Supply:
NO! Glock 37!!




i dont think that the military will consider a striker-fired pistol--must have "double-strike" capablities

too bad cause a trimmed G21 would fit the bill imo
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:37:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds to me like the HK USP 45 Tactical is already exactly what they need.



+eleventybillion
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:39:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds to me like the HK USP 45 Tactical is already exactly what they need.



+eleventybillion



i cant say i would not agree with the HK Tactical, but HK needs to do something about that high bore axis...

actually, there is NOT one perfect double stack .45acp out there that would be reliable and nice to shoot imo
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:43:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:59:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds to me like the HK USP 45 Tactical is already exactly what they need.



+eleventybillion



i cant say i would not agree with the HK Tactical, but HK needs to do something about that high bore axis...

actually, there is NOT one perfect double stack .45acp out there that would be reliable and nice to shoot imo



Whats wrong with the bore axis? My USP Tactical is softest shooting .45 I have shot with the exception of my MK23. Very fast back on target and very tame recoil.

Its not as high as it looks.

Either way...it ain't gonna be a USP Tactical.

What do you guys think the HK .45 is being developed for? It ain't just for shits and grins.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:07:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 9:09:06 AM EDT by cheaptrickfan]
Ruger KP345PR (American Made - only 8+1)



Taurus PT 24/7 PRO (US/Brazil - 12+1) SA/DA


Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:19:57 AM EDT
I gotta laugh at all of the high bore axis comments. Obviously from those who don't own HKs. I happen to have two USPc45 and 45 Tactical and they are both quick to follow-up (esp the Tactical).


Bomber
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:20:23 AM EDT
I cant say which one they would choose, but if its going to be a general issue pistol then it will most likely be a single stack. If it must fit all different types of hands then most double stack 45 grips are huge and dont fit the bill. I cant see the military going back to the 1911 style pistol after using double actions for this long. Who knows
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:22:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 10:57:08 AM EDT by danpass]
Maybe this ends the "debate" about 9 vs 40 vs 45

Would love to see the 1911 back in the game though
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:45:08 AM EDT
Like it or not, the 1911 is NOT back in the game. Some very good points were made above that allow the field to be narrowed.


- Double strike capacity: Makes sense. In a firefight where you have to draw your sidearm and use it, you want to pull the trigger until the threat goes away. You don't want to/cant afford to be fumblefucking around with a not-cocked pistol, or worse, get a light strike and have to clear it.

- Double Action: As stated above- you want to pull the trigger until the threat goes away. The military is so used to having the M9 where you just pull the trigger and it goes bang- i seriously doubt they will go BACK to a SAO pistol. DA/SA is the way to go.

Given this it rules out Glock, Taurus PT 24/7, and a good 70% of other pistols that pack an internal hammer, or are 1911 derivitaves.

If I had to guess, I would put my money on a Sig, though I hate to see the M9 go, and personally I will wait until it happens before I buy into this. Look how many times the DoD has tried to drop the M16 and we see where that went...
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:18:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 9:20:52 AM EDT by cheaptrickfan]

If I had to guess, I would put my money on a Sig


This is a likely choice.

Sig Arms P-220 45 (7+1) DA/SA
But considering the 8 round mag requirement, I'm certain Sig would provide the best weapon for evaluation.


Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds to me like the HK USP 45 Tactical is already exactly what they need.



+eleventybillion



i cant say i would not agree with the HK Tactical, but HK needs to do something about that high bore axis...

actually, there is NOT one perfect double stack .45acp out there that would be reliable and nice to shoot imo



Whats wrong with the bore axis? My USP Tactical is softest shooting .45 I have shot with the exception of my MK23. Very fast back on target and very tame recoil.

Its not as high as it looks.

Either way...it ain't gonna be a USP Tactical.

What do you guys think the HK .45 is being developed for? It ain't just for shits and grins.



if its anything like my HK USPf 45 (and from what i held at the stores), i just dont like the way that HK has all of that extra plastic on the grip where the web of you hand is suppose to wrap around--too high imo--highest one of most pistols i have shot

its not the recoil that bothers me, its just the way it sits in my hand
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:50:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:

If I had to guess, I would put my money on a Sig


This is a likely choice.

Sig Arms P-220 45 (7+1) DA/SA
But considering the 8 round mag requirement, I'm certain Sig would provide the best weapon for evaluation.

www.sigarms.com/apps/cmt/img/p220-large.jpg



Don't current 220 mags have the new follower that makes it an 8 round mag?

Nick
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:52:00 AM EDT
here's hoping for a domestic or a sig.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:46:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
Like it or not, the 1911 is NOT back in the game. Some very good points were made above that allow the field to be narrowed.


- Double strike capacity: Makes sense. In a firefight where you have to draw your sidearm and use it, you want to pull the trigger until the threat goes away. You don't want to/cant afford to be fumblefucking around with a not-cocked pistol, or worse, get a light strike and have to clear it.

- Double Action: As stated above- you want to pull the trigger until the threat goes away. The military is so used to having the M9 where you just pull the trigger and it goes bang- i seriously doubt they will go BACK to a SAO pistol. DA/SA is the way to go.



As big of a 1911 whore as I am, I still have to agree with this. I think the 1911 is best suited for those individuals, dare I say operators, who are trained to be highly proficient with their sidearm as well as their primary rifle.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:59:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 12:00:14 PM EDT by Carter226]
Even if the Military doesnt accept one of them as a side arm that means that we get new toys form the manufactures. You know that they will develope new weapons just to see if it will fit the bill, thats what happen with the 228 I believe Military didnt accept but Sig gave it to the public.

But in reality it will go to the cheapest manufacture like last time............
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:02:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

Originally Posted By JTAC_Supply:
NO! Glock 37!!




i dont think that the military will consider a striker-fired pistol--must have "double-strike" capablities

too bad cause a trimmed G21 would fit the bill imo



Somebody already posted the requirement once it eliminated Glock in 3 ways from the outset. Unless Glock makes a totally new gun they will not even have a shot at entry.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:08:52 PM EDT
This is a gimme contract for HK and you all know it already. I think the 7rd P220 capacity is way to low.


Let me put this in another way the new minimum score for infantry in the Army or Corps is 18 on the ASVAB. Loweset score you can enter the USAF with is I believe 34 and that is for a MP/SP. A monkey can score an 18 on the ASVAB by accident. Said pistol must be completely dumbed down thus no DAO and the mandatory external safety.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:20:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:
Maybe this ends the "debate" about 9 vs 40 vs 45

Would love to see the 1911 back in the game though


This proves 45 is better than 9mm like going to 5.56mm proves that it more effective 7.62 nato. The gov does not need reason
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:27:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-steve:

Originally Posted By danpass:
Maybe this ends the "debate" about 9 vs 40 vs 45

Would love to see the 1911 back in the game though


This proves 45 is better than 9mm like going to 5.56mm proves that it more effective 7.62 nato. The gov does not need reason



what did 5.56 replace? Maybe its time to go back?



Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:28:40 PM EDT
I can't understand peoples reservations with the glock lacking a double strike capability, time has demonstrated that to be a complete non-issue, with good ammo, they go bang every time. In addition to that, anytime my pistol goes "click" I will cycle the slide. The reason that pistol went click is because the damn round is defective. I've heard statistics like "50% of rounds fire on the second strike", I would rather just train to rack the slide with a misfire, instead of training to frantically pull the trigger until the round goes off.

All that being said, A USP Tactical with reshaped frame to accomodate the tiny handed (i'm 6'4" ), or a glock 21 with similar treatment and a extended threaded barrel would be my picks. (If I were running things)
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:33:00 PM EDT
I think this whole thing is ASININE! On top of that, I dont think for a second it will happen. Here's why:

The US will NOT go to a 45 as its PRIMARY service pistol. Why? Because NATO standard is 9mm. The US is the ONLY country in the WORLD where 45 is even considered a viable combat caliber. 9mm is the STANDARD everywhere else in the world, including all the NATO countries, and most non-NATO to boot.

Simple economics dictate that 9mm is here to stay. It is significantly cheaper to stay with 9mm because there is a VASTLY larger ammo source for it. 9mm is made in almost every country that makes ammo, and it is made in HUGE quantities. That's why 9mm is half the price of 45 here is because it is doubly available everywhere. International competition keeps prices low on it.

As for 9mm not being an effective combat caliber: experience has proven again (and again and again and again ad infinidum ad nauseum) that 9mm is every bit as capable of a takedown as 45.

45 is for people who need to compensate for something.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:56:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
I think this whole thing is ASININE! On top of that, I dont think for a second it will happen. Here's why:

The US will NOT go to a 45 as its PRIMARY service pistol. Why? Because NATO standard is 9mm. The US is the ONLY country in the WORLD where 45 is even considered a viable combat caliber. 9mm is the STANDARD everywhere else in the world, including all the NATO countries, and most non-NATO to boot.

Simple economics dictate that 9mm is here to stay. It is significantly cheaper to stay with 9mm because there is a VASTLY larger ammo source for it. 9mm is made in almost every country that makes ammo, and it is made in HUGE quantities. That's why 9mm is half the price of 45 here is because it is doubly available everywhere. International competition keeps prices low on it.

As for 9mm not being an effective combat caliber: experience has proven again (and again and again and again ad infinidum ad nauseum) that 9mm is every bit as capable of a takedown as 45.

45 is for people who need to compensate for something.



OK...well then it's settled....as you were


Bomber
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:20:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 4:20:47 PM EDT by adair_usmc]

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:



45 is for people who need to compensate for something.




9mm is for women and pansies. Period.



Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:21:31 PM EDT
There is going to be a lot of different manufacturers biding on this. I am currently working with Remington MPD divisionon on their entry. From what I know it's a cross between a Glock and a 1911. I think we'll be able to see it at SHOT show this February. Whatever the Govt. picks, it should generate some good ideas from the top manufacturers.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:26:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
45 is for people who need to compensate for something.



A tiny penis and poor marksmanship.

G
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:31:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:



45 is for people who need to compensate for something.




9mm is for women and pansies. Period.






period huh?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:38:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:

period huh?



apparently


Originally Posted By glock23carry:

A tiny penis and poor marksmanship



+a bunch
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:42:21 PM EDT
www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12339&an=0&page=1#12339



USP 45 with a 10rd "1 1/2 stack" mag, interchangeable backstraps, real Picatinny spec rail.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:43:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:

Originally Posted By danpass:

period huh?



apparently


Originally Posted By glock23carry:

A tiny penis and poor marksmanship



+a bunch



Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:54:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:
www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12339&an=0&page=1#12339



USP 45 with a 10rd "1 1/2 stack" mag, interchangeable backstraps, real Picatinny spec rail.



WOW! Some guys, who haven't seen or handled the pistol, let alone done a T&E, think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and will "hang up" their 1911s for it! And it's such a cool site that only the coolest of the super cool can post there. Neato!

G
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:12:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:18:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Originally Posted By STG77:
www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12339&an=0&page=1#12339



USP 45 with a 10rd "1 1/2 stack" mag, interchangeable backstraps, real Picatinny spec rail.



WOW! Some guys, who haven't seen or handled the pistol, let alone done a T&E, think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and will "hang up" their 1911s for it! And it's such a cool site that only the coolest of the super cool can post there. Neato!

G







It's just like ARFCOM, except you have to post under your real name! The comments from people who haven't seen it in real life are exactly the same.

I just posted the link here to show the HK45. I didn't feel like digging around on hkpro to find the thread there, and the thread about it here turned into dumb-ass bickering after about 3 posts.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:27:06 PM EDT


Can you imagine if ARFCOM picked the car you drove, the clothes you wore and the weapons you owned by poll?

G
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:53:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tzyck:
There is going to be a lot of different manufacturers biding on this. I am currently working with Remington MPD divisionon on their entry. From what I know it's a cross between a Glock and a 1911. I think we'll be able to see it at SHOT show this February. Whatever the Govt. picks, it should generate some good ideas from the top manufacturers.





Well, seeing as Glocks and 1911s are my favs.....MORE INFO!!!!

At least tell me if your grips are gonna fit it!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:44:28 PM EDT
I would think that the .45 hasnt been as ridiculously popular overseas as 9mm has because until recently the only decent firearms available in the .45 were in the nosebleed category as far as price goes. Match that with cultures that arent exactly as gung-ho about everyday pistol usage as the US' and you get a situation where moderatly priced weapons in a caliber that was homegrown become pretty dominant. same as the .45 and 30.06 here in the states...
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:37:06 PM EDT
I hope that .45 comes back. I think it is a step up from 9mm ball. YMMV
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:39:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 3:11:18 AM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:

As for 9mm not being an effective combat caliber: experience has proven again (and again and again and again ad infinidum ad nauseum) that 9mm is every bit as capable of a takedown as 45.




sure, if you are comparing high end, qulality comercial JHP loads--which i DONT think that the US mil will be issuing regardless of caliber

FMJs? i'll take the heavier, wider round, thanks
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:18:28 AM EDT
The JCP was first posted about here in August of last year. That included all the requirements the Army wanted. I still have the requirements on file around here somewhere. If I find them, I'll post them.

Here you go:

Performance Specification
Joint Combat Pistol
1. SCOPE

1.1. Scope. This specification establishes the requirements for the Military Forces Joint Combat Pistol. The intent of the Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) Program is to procure the most reliable, controllable, ergonomic, accurate, maintainable and safe pistol for United States Military Forces.

2. APPLICABLE DOCUMENTS

2.1. General. The documents listed in this section are specified in sections 3 and 4 of this specification. This section does not include documents cited in other sections of this specification or recommended for additional information or as examples. While every effort has been made to ensure the completeness of this list, contractors are cautioned that they must meet all specified requirements documents cited in sections 3 and 4 of this specification, whether or not they are listed.

2.2. Government documents.

2.2.1. Specifications and standards. The following specifications and standards form a part of this document to the extent specified herein. Unless otherwise specified, the version of these documents shall be those listed in the Department of Defense Index of Specifications and Standards (DODISS) and supplement thereto, cited in the solicitation.

FED-STD-595B Colors Used In Government Procurement

MIL-STD-810F Environmental Test Methods and Engineering Guidelines

MIL-STD-1913 Dimensioning of Accessory Mounting Rail For Small Arms Weapons

ITOP 4-2-602 Rough Handling Tests

TOP 3-2-045 Automatic Weapons, Machineguns, and Hand and Shoulder Fired Weapons.

MIL-C-1311E Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, M1911, (A475)

MIL-C-60163 Cartridge, Caliber .45, Test, High Pressure, (M1)

SW010-AD-GTP-010 SMALL ARMS AND SPECIAL
WARFARE AMMUNITION
.45 caliber +P Truncated Cone, (AA18)

MIL-C-46482B Cartridge, Caliber .45 Ball, M1911, Match Grade, (A483)

Copies of military specifications and standards are available from: Standardization Document Order Desk, 700 Robbins Ave., Bldg #4, Section D, Philadelphia, PA 19111-5094.

2.3. Non-Government Documents

2.3.1. Non-Government Specifications and standards. The following document(s) form a part of this document to the extent specified herein.

ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-1993 Pressure and Velocity for Center Fire Pistol

2.4. Order of precedence. In the event of a conflict between the text of this document and the references cited herein, the text of this document takes precedence. Nothing in this document, however, supersedes applicable laws and regulations unless a specific exemption has been obtained.

3. REQUIREMENTS

NOTE: Thresholds and Objectives. Section 3, designates threshold requirements and objectives. All Threshold requirements are marked with a (T). All “shalls” designate a threshold requirement. All Objectives are marked with a (O). All “shoulds” designate an objective.

3.1. JCP Definition. The JCP System shall include:

3.1.1. Weapon. A caliber .45 pistol, two [2] standard-capacity magazines, operator’s manual, and cleaning kit.

3.1.2. Holster.

3.1.3. High Capacity Magazine. Four [4] high-capacity magazines.

3.1.4. Magazine Holder.

3.2. Performance Requirements:

3.2.1. Reliability. The JCP shall have a Mean Rounds Between Stoppage (MRBS) of 2000 rounds (T) and 5000 rounds (O) firing A475 and A483 ammunition. The JCP shall have a Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) of 5000 rounds (T) and 10,000 rounds (O) firing A475 and A483 ammunition. The weapon shall function reliably when operated in extreme environments per section 3.6.

3.2.2. Accuracy. When fired from a rest, at a range of 50 meters, the mean radius of a 10-shot group fired from the JCP shall not be greater than A) 3.15 inches or B)1.8 inches over baseline ammunition performance, whichever is less (T). Baseline ammunition performance is defined as the average mean radius plus two sample standard deviations of three 10-shot groups fired from a test barrel at 50m.

3.2.3. Service Life. The JCP shall have a service life of 20,000 rounds (T), greater than 20,000 (O), using A475 .45 ACP Ball, and/or A483 .45 ACP match ammunition. The JCP should be capable of a service life of 20,000 rounds when firing 5% AA18 .45 +P ammunition (O). Receiver service life shall be defined as a receiver that is at the end of its usable life cycle.

3.3. Physical description.

3.3.1. Magazine Capacity. The JCP shall have a standard magazine capacity of no less than eight rounds (T), greater than eight rounds (O) of .45 ACP ammunition. The JCP shall also have a high-capacity magazine of no less than ten [10] rounds (T), fifteen [15] rounds (O), of .45 ACP ammunition.

3.3.2. Pistol Lanyard Attachment Point. The JCP shall have a rigid attachment point for a lanyard (T). The JCP lanyard attachment point shall not interfere with the JCP control features or magazine unloading and reloading, and shall minimize snag hazard (T).

3.3.3. Accessory Rail. The JCP shall have an integral MIL-STD-1913 rail for the attachment of accessories (T). The rail shall be located forward of the trigger guard on the lower portion of the frame (T).

3.3.4. Surface Finish. The JCP surface finish shall be non-reflective, resistant to peeling, flaking, and chipping, and require a minimum of operator preventive maintenance (T). Internal coatings should be lubricious/low friction mitigating the use of lubricants (O). Non-metallic components shall be fungus and battlefield chemical resistant (T). JCP materials and coatings shall protect the pistol from degradation in all climates and geographical areas including maritime, coastal, desert, tropical jungle, arctic, urban areas, and mountain environments (T). The materials and coatings shall minimize the attraction of dust and contamination (T).

3.3.5. Color. The JCP frame and JCP holster shall be delivered in Color #30118 (Flat, Dark Earth), Per FED-STD-595B (T). The barrel and slide shall be anti-reflective, matte grey or matte black finish comparable to FED-STD-595B series #36000 or #37000 colors (T).

3.3.6. Length. The JCP length, with standard barrel, shall be less than 9.65 inches (T).

3.3.7. Width. The JCP width shall be less than 1.53 inches (T).

3.4. Weapon controls.

3.4.1. Action: The JCP shall function in double action/single action (DA/SA) or double-action only (DAO) including Striker-Fired Action (SFA) (T). The JCP should have a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level without modification to the weapon’s major assemblies (O).

3.4.2. Trigger Pull: All DA/SA pistols shall have a consistent trigger pull of eight to ten [8-10] pounds on Double Action, and a consistent trigger pull of four to six [4-6] pounds on Single Action and all DAO pistols shall have a trigger pull of five to eight [5-8] pounds (T). All pistols shall have a trigger pull that is consistent within one [1] pound from average pull (T). When pressure is applied to the JCP trigger and then released, the trigger shall reset to its forward-most position, even if the pistol is not fired (T). The operator shall be capable of pulling the trigger, without shifting the firing grip as will be tested in section 3.6.3.

3.4.3. Magazine Release / Tactical Reload: The JCP shall allow the magazine, empty or with any number of rounds loaded, to drop free of the magazine well when the magazine release is activated (T). The magazine shall fall free when the pistol grip is held at any angle from 0 degrees vertical (normal firing attitude) to 45 degrees from vertical (T). The magazine shall also be capable of manual extraction when held at any other angle (T). The pistol shall be capable of firing with a chambered round and without a magazine in the magazine well (T). The pistol shall reliably fire when the pistol has a round in the chamber and a fully loaded magazine is inserted with the slide fully forward and the pistol is fired (T). The operator shall be capable of operating the magazine release with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of operating the magazine release without shifting the firing grip (O).

3.4.4. Ergonomic Enhancements: The JCP shall be operable for a range of operators from the 5th to 95th percentile per section 3.6.3. To aid in this, the JCP should incorporate a modular grip adjustment system to provide enhanced ergonomics (O).

3.4.5. Sights: The JCP sights shall provide rapid target acquisition and shall be optimized for snag-resistant rapid deployment (T). The JCP sights shall be replaceable at the organizational level (T). The JCP sights shall be drift-adjustable for windage (T). The JCP sights shall be self-illuminating for low light situations without ambient or external light source “charging” (T).

3.4.6. Safety:

3.4.6.1. DA/SA Pistols. The JCP in the DA/SA configuration shall have an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled (T). DA/SA pistols shall have a de-cocking lever that lowers the hammer from a cocked position and returns the pistol to DA mode when activated (T). The JCP design shall prevent the firing of a chambered cartridge when the hammer is cocked and the de-cocking lever is activated (T). The operator shall be capable of activating the de-cocking lever with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of activating the de-cocking lever without shifting the firing grip (O). If configured with external safety, the weapon shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.1.1.

3.4.6.1.1. DA/SA Pistols with External Safety. The JCP in DA/SA mode with an external manual safety shall meet all the requirements of 3.4.6.1 with the addition of: The external manual safety shall prevent firing when the manual safety is applied and the trigger is pulled (T). The operator shall be capable of activating the external manual safety with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of activating the external manual safety without shifting the firing grip (O).

3.4.6.2. DAO Pistols. The JCP in DAO shall have an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled (T). If configured with an external safety, the pistol shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.2.1.

3.4.6.2.1. DAO Pistols with External Safety. The JCP in DAO with an external safety shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.2 with the addition of: The external safety shall prevent firing when applied and the trigger is pulled (T). When configured with an external safety, the operator shall be capable of activating and deactivating the external safety with the firing hand (T), and should be capable of activating and deactivating the external safety without shifting the firing grip (O).

3.4.6.3. General Safety. The JCP shall be capable of being produced either with or without an external manual safety (T). The weapon shall not create a hazard to the operator or others in close proximity during normal handling, transport, and use (T).

3.4.7. Slide Lock. The JCP shall incorporate a slide lock that will lock the slide to the rear after the firing and ejection of the last round from the magazine (T). The operator shall be capable of locking/unlocking the slide lock with the firing hand (T).

3.5. Design requirements.

3.5.1. Caliber and Chamber. The JCP shall be chambered for standard .45 Auto per ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-1993. The JCP shall safely fire all .45 caliber ACP cartridges referenced in paragraph 2.2.1 of this performance specification (T). Each JCP shall be capable of withstanding the firing of a M1 Cartridge, .45 ACP High Pressure Test detailed in MIL-C-60163 and marked accordingly (T). The pistol shall have proper headspace for .45 ACP cartridges (T).

3.5.2. Field stripping. The JCP shall be capable of quick and easy field stripping, without the use of tools, for normal care and cleaning in the field (T). The weapon shall be incapable of improper assembly at the fieldstrip level to the detriment of safety (T). Takedown pins should be captive (O).

3.5.3. Parts interchangeability. All component parts or inseparable subassemblies shall be 100% interchangeable between pistols without hand or machine fitting (T). Interchange of parts of like condition shall not adversely affect safety, functioning, reliability or accuracy of the pistol (T).

3.5.4. Non-catastrophic failure. The JCP shall not fail in a catastrophic manner when subjected to extremes in operational and environmental employment, or due to over stressing of the system during high operational use and extended round counts (T). “Catastrophic manner” is defined as the JCP failing in such a manner as to become a hazard to the operator or friendly force in the immediate vicinity. Failure inducing conditions may include but are not limited to: bore obstruction (including water and projectile) and environmental extremes.

3.5.5. Lubrication. The JCP shall not create any new lubrication requirements over existing systems (T); the JCP should not require the application of grease or lubricants (O).

3.5.6. Rough handling. The JCP shall be capable of withstanding the impact, when dropped from a minimum height of 1.5 meters (5 feet), as described in TOP 3-2-045 and ITOP 4-2-602 without firing a primed empty cartridge and without causing any damage that prevents operation of the pistol (T). The JCP shall withstand vibration and rough-handling requirements as defined by MIL-STD-810F, Method 514.4 without firing a primed empty cartridge and without causing any damage that prevents operation of the pistol (T).

3.6. Operational environmental requirements.

3.6.1. Environmental requirements. The JCP shall operate reliably in all climates and geographical areas that include sand, swamp, tundra, grasslands, forest, jungle, urban areas, maritime, riverine, and alpine / mountainous environments (T). The JCP shall operate at high and low temperature extremes (-40 °F to 140 °F) as well as other hostile (ice/rain/sand/dust/dirt/mud/ surf/salt fog) environmental conditions (T). The JCP shall exhibit no functional degradation after a salt fog exposure of four [4] days (T), ten [10] days (O).

3.6.2. Immersion. The JCP shall be capable of being submerged in salt or fresh water to a depth of 66ft. for a minimum of two [2] hours without operational degradation (T), eight hours without operational degradation (O).

3.6.3. Operational Suitability and Effectiveness. Operational suitability and effectiveness of the JCP is based on the ability of the JCP system to meet all stated threshold and objective requirements as well as Operators’ (subjective and objective) determination of operational suitability and effectiveness. Factors include but are not limited to overall reliability, controllability/shootability as measured by live-fire hit scores and engagement times while shooting with two hands and single handed (both strong and weak hand), ease of reload and malfunction clearing, ergonomics, snag free operation, and ease of maintainability while in the field (T). The JCP shall be durable, and easily maintainable in the field (T). It shall be usable by right or left-handed operators (T). The pistol shall be operable by personnel wearing anti-contact protection (cold weather, scuba, or Chemical, Biological, Radiological gloves) (T). The pistol shall not present any sharp edges or pinch points that could damage the clothing or protective equipment of the soldier or injure the soldier (T). The JCP design shall allow the Operator to immediately clear a malfunction without the use of tools (T).

3.7. Ancillary equipment.

3.7.1. Suppressor Attachment Kit. The JCP shall have a Suppressor Attachment Kit that provides for the attachment and operation of the suppressor to the JCP (T). This kit shall cause no change in operation of the JCP with or without suppressor attached (T).

3.7.2. Holster. The JCP shall have a rigid holster system that allows rapid withdrawal and secure holstering of the pistol with both standard and high capacity magazines (T). The JCP holster shall allow mounting on the thigh, hip, and SPEAR/BALCS body armor (T). The JCP holster shall have a rotating, snap-free hood securing mechanism that allows the pistol to be drawn when pressure is applied to the hood, and the hood is rotated down and forward (T). The holster design shall not allow the gun to be drawn when the hood is in the “secure” position, and pressure is applied to the pistol in an attempt to draw the pistol (T). The holster design shall not damage the weapon’s surface finish, sights or any other component through repeated drawing and holstering (T).

3.7.3. Magazine Holder. The JCP shall have a magazine holder that attaches to SPEAR/BALCS body armor and accepts two [2] standard and high-capacity magazines (T). This requirement may also be met with two [2] magazine holders that hold one [1] magazine each.

3.7.4. Cleaning kit. The JCP shall be equipped with a compact cleaning kit for general field maintenance and cleaning (T).

3.7.5. Operator’s Manual. The JCP shall be equipped with an operator’s manual in accordance with DD1423 CDRL A001 (T).

3.7.6. Weapon Shot Counter. The JCP should have a weapon shot counter to record shots fired (O). The shot counter, if provided, shall have a data collection device that connects the shot counter to a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall have a Microsoft compatible software program that works in conjunction with the shot counter and the data collection device to allow the weapon data to be downloaded and stored on a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall not interfere with any operations of the JCP.

3.7.7. Force-on-Force Training Module. The JCP should have a force-on-force training module that uses a non-lethal marking ammunition round that does not significantly or permanently injure operators when fired during force-on-force training (O).

3.8. Workmanship. Workmanship and finish shall be in accordance with the best commercial practice (T). Finished pistols and parts shall not exhibit poor material and processing such as seams, laps, laminations, cracks, visible steps, sharp edges, nicks, scratches, burrs, deformations and missing operations which may affect serviceability, functioning, operation, appearance or safety (T). Flashing or other extraneous material shall be removed from cast or forged parts (T).

3.9. Weapons Rack. The JCP should be capable of being secured in the M14 Small Arms Storage Rack, NSN 1095-01-236-2203 (O).

3.10. Identification markings. The JCP shall display identification markings addressing weapon nomenclature and caliber, manufacturer, and serial number (T). Identification markings shall be engraved, cast, or stamped (impressed) on the receiver in a manner easy to read and identify, not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed (T). In the case of polymer weapons, this data shall be placed on a permanent metal surface (e.g., onto a metal plate inserted in the receiver). Identification should be accessible without removing the weapon from its rack (O).

4. VERIFICATION.

4.1. JCP System Definition. Verify the JCP system includes:

4.1.1. Weapon: A caliber .45 pistol, two (2) standard-capacity magazines, operator’s manual, and cleaning kit.

4.1.2. Holster.

4.1.3. High Capacity Magazine: Verify there are four [4] high-capacity magazines.

4.1.4. Magazine Holder: Verify there are two [2] magazine holders (One [1] double magazine holder).

4.2. Performance Requirements:

4.2.1. Reliability. Verify the JCP has a MRBS and MRBF according to the table below, firing A475, A483, and AA18 ammunition, in accordance with paragraph 3.2.1. Firing schedule will be 20,000 rounds total, rapid fire, 500 round iterations with a cooling period at 250 rounds. Pistols will be cleaned, lubricated per manufacturers instructions, and inspected before and after the test and every 500 rounds during the test.

Notes: Stoppage definition: A stoppage or malfunction (Class I or II) is defined as an unplanned cessation in firing or inability to commence firing. A stoppage also includes malfunctions, which are traceable to an unserviceable part. Malfunction descriptions include but are not limited to: failures to feed, extract, eject, close, fire, or failure to function of the magazine catch or slide stop. Malfunctions attributed to ammunition will not be counted against the pistol. However, they will be recorded and properly identified with supporting analysis.

Failure definition: A failure is defined as a class III malfunction and/or an unserviceable part. An unserviceable part is any part, which fails to perform its intended function, impairs the safe operation of the pistol, or is broken. Unserviceable parts include broken or set springs, burred or broken extractor, ejector, firing pin/striker, etc, loose grip screws, and magazine failures such as bent side walls, bent or cracked lips, or a distorted follower.

Malfunction Classification:

Class I: A malfunction that may be immediately clearable by the operator within 10 seconds or less while following prescribed immediate action procedures.

Class II: A malfunction that may be operator clearable requiring more than 10 seconds but not more than 10 minutes. Only the equipment and tools issued with the pistol may be used to clear the malfunction.

Class III: A malfunction of a severe nature. The malfunction (1) is operator correctable but requires more than 10 minutes; (2) operator cannot correct and requires assistance (no time limit); or (3) requires higher level of maintenance, or authorized operator correction cannot be accomplished because of unavailability of necessary tools, equipment or parts.

Scoring: The maximum number of stoppages permissible is ten [10]. These stoppages may be in any combination of class I or class II malfunctions up to the maximum of ten [10] total malfunctions of class I and class II. The maximum number of class III malfunctions is four [4]. A part determined to be unserviceable during the scheduled maintenance, shall be replaced and not scored as a reliability malfunction. However, for each pistol, more than four [4] changes of the same part shall result in failure of the reliability test. More than eight total parts changed during the 20,000 round test shall result in failure of the reliability test. If recorded malfunctions can be attributed to an unserviceable part (not outside the part replacement parameter), they will not be counted against the pistol provided they occurred within the previous 200 rounds of firing. Unserviceable parts discovered after the reliability firing is completed shall not be scored as a reliability failure.

Table 1-Joint Combat Pistol Reliability
Malfunction Class Rounds Maximum allowable Malfunctions permitted in 20,000 Rounds
Total 10
I and II (MRBS) 2,000 10
III (MRBF) 5,000 4

4.2.2. Accuracy: The JCP will be fired from a machine rest to verify compliance with paragraph 3.2.2. Baseline ammunition accuracy will be fired from test barrels.

4.2.3. Service Life. Verify during reliability testing, paragraph 4.2.1, that the JCP will meet the requirements of paragraph 3.2.3. Verify the service life is no less than 20,000 rounds using A475 .45 ACP Ball, and A483 .45 ACP match ammunition. Approximately 5% AA18 .45 +P ammunition will be fired on a sample weapon to verify if the JCP is capable of maintaining these service life goals when firing +P ammunition.

4.3. Physical description.

4.3.1. Magazine Capacity. Verify the JCP has a standard magazine capacity of no less than eight rounds by loading eight rounds of A475 and function firing the pistol. Verify the JCP has a high-capacity magazine of no less than ten [10] rounds by loading ten [10] rounds of A475 and function firing the pistol. Verify the high capacity magazine will not create a snag hazard when inserted in the magazine well: this will be verified during operational assessment.

4.3.2. Pistol Lanyard Attachment Point: Verify the JCP has a rigid attachment point for a lanyard in accordance with paragraph 3.3.2. Verify the lanyard attachment point does not interfere with the JCP control features or magazine unloading and reloading, and does not create a snag hazard. This will be verified during operational assessment.

4.3.3. Accessory Rail: Verify the pistol has an integral rail located forward of the trigger guard on the lower portion of the frame. Inspect the rail to meet MIL-STD-1913 in accordance with paragraph 3.3.3.

4.3.4. Surface Finish. In accordance with paragraph 3.3.4, verify the JCP surface finish is non-reflective, resistant to peeling, flaking, and chipping, and requires a minimum of operator preventative maintenance: this parameter will be assessed in an operational environment. Verify internal coatings are lubricious/low friction mitigating the use of lubricants during reliability testing paragraph 4.2.1. Verify non-metallic components are fungus and battlefield chemical resistant in general accordance with methods 508.5 and 504 of MIL-STD- 810F. The following parameters may be evaluated during environmental technical tests and operational assessment. Verify the JCP materials and coatings protect the pistol from degradation in all climates and geographical areas including maritime, coastal, desert, tropical jungle, arctic, urban areas, and mountain environments. Verify the materials and coatings minimize the attraction of dust and contamination.

4.3.5. Color. Verify the JCP frame, holster, and magazine holders are Color #30118 (Flat, Dark Earth), per FED-STD-595B in accordance with paragraph 3.3.5. Verify the barrel and slide are anti-reflective, matte grey or matte black finish comparable to FED-STD-595B series #36000 or #37000 colors. Colors will be verified by comparison to certified color cards/chips.

4.3.6. Length. Verify the length of the JCP by measuring the pistols length from tip to tip in line with the barrel.

4.3.7. Width. Verify the width of the JCP by measuring the pistols width from the two most outer points on each side.

4.4. Pistol controls.

4.4.1. Action: Verify the JCP is Double Action / Single Action (DASA) or Double Action Only (DAO) in accordance with paragraph 3.4.1. DA/SA is defined as an action that cocks and fires the pistol with the first pull of the trigger, with subsequent shots being fired from a pre-cocked position (hammer to the rear). DAO is defined as an action that cocks and fires the pistol with a single pull of the trigger, or a Striker Fired Action that employs an internal striker mechanism to detonate the primer. Verify if the JCP has a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration from DAO to DA/SA, or DA/SA to DAO and back at the organizational level.

4.4.2. Trigger Pull: Verify DAO pistols have a trigger pull of five to eight (5 – 8) pounds with all the trigger pull measurements being within one (1) pound of the mean of all the trigger pull measurements of the measured trigger pulls of all submitted samples in a single submission in accordance with paragraph 3.4.2. Verify DA/SA pistols have a trigger pull of 8-10 pounds on Double Action, and a trigger pull of 4-6 pounds on Single Action and that all the trigger pull measurements being within one (1) pound of the mean of all the trigger pull measurements of the measured trigger pulls of all submitted samples in a single submission in accordance with paragraph 3.4.2. The trigger pull will be tested as follows: The unloaded pistol will be fully cocked, in the case of DA/SA, the double action will be assessed by utilizing the de-cocker to drop the hammer. A force will be gradually applied to the center of the trigger bow in a direction parallel to the barrel. Data from ten iterations will be recorded to assess consistency. Verify the trigger resets after being released, even if the pistol is not fired. Verify the operator is capable of pulling the trigger without moving the hand on the firing grip: this parameter will be evaluated during operational assessment.

4.4.3. Magazine Release / Tactical Reload: Verify the JCP allows the magazine, empty or with any number of rounds loaded, to drop free of the magazine well when the magazine release is activated in accordance with paragraph 3.4.3. Verify the magazine falls free when the pistol grip is held at any angle from 0 degrees vertical (normal firing attitude) to 45 degrees from vertical. Verify the magazine is also capable of manual extraction when held at any angle. Verify the pistol is capable of firing with a chambered round and without a magazine in the magazine well. Verify the magazine catch functions properly when a fully loaded magazine is inserted into the weapon with the slide in the closed position. Verify the pistol reliably fires when a fully loaded magazine is inserted with the slide fully forward and a round in the chamber. Verify the operator is capable of operating the magazine release with the firing hand and without shifting the firing grip: this parameter will be evaluated during operational assessment.


4.4.4. Ergonomic Enhancements: Verify if the JCP incorporates a modular grip adjustment system to provide enhanced ergonomics for a wide range of operators in accordance with paragraph 3.4.4. If a modular grip adjustment system is provided, measure the range of modular grip attachments. This will be evaluated to meet the 5th to 95th percentile during the Operational Assessment portion of the testing.

4.4.5. Sights. Verify the JCP sights are drift-adjustable for windage in accordance with paragraph 3.4.5. Verify the pistol sights have illumination for low light situations. Verify the JCP sights are replaceable at the organizational level. Verify the JCP sights provide rapid target acquisition and are optimized for snag-resistant rapid deployment: this parameter will be evaluated during operational assessment.

4.4.6. Safety:

4.4.6.1. DA/SA Pistols. Verify the JCP has an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled. Verify that the DA/SA pistols have a de-cocking lever that lowers the hammer from a cocked position and returns the pistol to DA mode when activated. Verify if the JCP is capable of being configured with an external manual safety. Verify that the JCP design prevents the firing of a chambered cartridge when the hammer is cocked and the de-cocking lever is activated. Verify that the operator is capable of activating the de-cocking lever with the firing hand. Verify if the operator is capable of activating the de-cocking lever without shifting the firing grip.

4.4.6.1.1. DA/SA Pistols with External Safety. Verify the JCP meets the requirements of 4.4.6.1. Verify the external manual safety prevents the weapon from firing when the trigger is pulled. Verify that the JCP design prevents the firing of a chambered cartridge when the hammer is cocked and the external manual safety is activated. Verify that the operator is capable of activating the external manual safety lever with the firing hand. Verify if the operator is capable of activating the external manual safety without shifting the firing grip.

4.4.6.2. DAO Pistols. Verify the JCP has an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled. Verify if the DAO JCP is capable of being configured to have an external manual safety without modification to the pistol's major assemblies. Verify that the weapon does not create a hazard to the operator or others in close proximity during normal handling, transport, and use.


4.4.6.2.1. DAO Pistols with Safety. Verify the JCP meets the requirements of 4.4.6.2. Verify that the external manual safety prevents firing when the manual safety is applied and the trigger is pulled. Verify that the operator is capable of activating and deactivating the external manual safety with the firing hand. Verify if the operator is capable of activating and deactivating the external manual safety without shifting the firing grip.

Note: Definition of firing grip: A grip in which the trigger finger does not touch the stock or the frame of the pistol and is capable of a straight pull to the rear without interference; the force of recoil of the pistol should be transmitted straight to the rear into the shooting arm (in line with the radial bone), not against the shooter’s thumb.

4.4.6.3. General Safety. Verify that the JCP is capable of being produced either with or without an external manual safety. Verify during all aspects of testing that the JCP does not create a hazard to the operator or others in close proximity during normal handling, transport, and use.

4.4.7. Slide Lock. Verify that the JCP incorporates a slide lock that will lock the slide to the rear after the firing and ejection of the last round from the magazine. Verify that the operator is capable of locking/unlocking the slide lock with the firing hand.

4.5. Design requirements.

4.5.1. Caliber, chamber and headspace. Verify the JCP is chambered for standard .45 Auto per ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-1993 by measuring headspace to be within specifications. Verify the barrels are proof marked for High-pressure test. Function fire the JCP with 200 rounds of .45 Auto ammunition found in paragraph 2.2.1 to verify weapon function.

4.5.2. Field stripping. Verify the JCP is capable of quick and easy field stripping without the use of tools for normal care and cleaning in the field in accordance with paragraph 3.5.2. Verify the pistol is incapable of improper assembly at the fieldstrip level to the detriment of safety. Verify if takedown pins are captive.

4.5.3. Parts interchangeability. Verify all component parts or inseparable subassemblies are 100% interchangeable between pistols without hand or machine fitting in accordance with paragraph 3.5.3: three [3] pistol samples are to be inspected then broken down into component parts. Parts will then be exchanged between weapons and assembled with the components of other weapons. Weapons will undergo safety inspection for headspace, safety, trigger pull, accuracy, and a function test.

4.5.4. Non-catastrophic failure. Verify the JCP does not fail in a catastrophic manner when subjected to extremes in operational and environmental employment, or due to over stressing system during high operational use. “Catastrophic manner” is defined as the JCP failing in such a manner as to become a hazard to the operator or friendly force in the immediate vicinity. Failure inducing conditions may include but are not limited to: bore obstruction (including water and projectile), overheating, and environmental extremes.

4.5.5. Lubrication. Verify the pistol does not create any new lubrication requirements over existing systems. The approved lubricants are MIL-L-63460 (CLP) and MIL-L-14107 (LAW). Verify if the pistol will operate without the application of grease of lubricants. This parameter will be examined during all phases of testing.

4.5.6. Rough handling. Verify the JCP is capable of withstanding the impact, when dropped from a minimum height of 1.5 meters (5 feet), as described in TOP 3-2-045 and ITOP 4-2-602 without firing a primed empty cartridge and without causing any structural or functional damage to the pistol. Verify the JCP is capable of withstanding vibration and rough-handling requirements as defined by MIL-STD-810F, Method 514.5.

4.6. Operational environmental requirements.

4.6.1. Environmental requirements. The JCP will be evaluated to verify reliable operation, without damage or degradation of performance, in all climates and geographical areas that include sand, swamp, tundra, grasslands, forest, jungle, urban areas, maritime, riverine, and alpine / mountainous environments during technical testing and testing in operational environments in accordance with paragraph 3.6.1. Technical testing of environmental requirements will be conducted in general accordance with MIL-STD- 810F and TOP 3-2-045. Tests include but are not limited to: High/Low Temperature, Mud, Humidity, Salt Fog, and Freezing Rain and Ice.

4.6.2. Immersion. The JCP will be submerged in salt or fresh water to a depth of 66ft. for 2 hours and 8 hours to verify if there is any operational degradation per paragraph 3.6.2.

4.6.3. Operational suitability/effectiveness. Operational tests and assessments will be conducted with the JCP system to verify operational suitability and effectiveness per paragraph 3.6.3 during phase II of the testing.

4.7. Ancillary equipment.

4.7.1. Suppressor Attachment Kit. Verify that the JCP has a Suppressor Attachment Kit that provides for the attachment and operation of the suppressor to the JCP. Verify that this kit causes no change in operation of the JCP with or without suppressor attached.

4.7.2. Holster. The JCP and holster will be tested in an operational environment to verify compliance with paragraph 3.7.2.

4.7.3. Magazine Holders. Verify the JCP has magazine holder/s that attach to SPEAR/BALCS body armor and accept both standard and high-capacity magazines in accordance with paragraph 3.7.3.

4.7.4. Cleaning kit. Verify the JCP has a compact cleaning kit for general field maintenance and cleaning.

4.7.5. Operator’s Manual. Verify the JCP is equipped with an operator’s manual in accordance with DD1423 CDRL A001 (T).

4.7.6. Weapon Shot Counter. Inspect to see if the JCP has a weapon shot counter to record shots fired. Inspect to see it the shot counter has a data collection device that connects the shot counter to a computer. Inspect to see if the shot counter has a Microsoft compatible software program that works in conjunction with the shot counter and the data collection device to allow the weapon data to be downloaded and stored on a computer. Verify the device does not interfere with any operations of the JCP. Install the device per manufacturers instructions. Visually inspect the device for any obvious problems with operation related to the shot counter. The shot counter will be installed during the safety release function fire of 200 rounds. After this firing, and periodically, the data collection device will be attached to the pistol and the data will be downloaded to a computer.

Note: If at any time during testing, this device is determined to be a detriment to the testing of the pistol, the item will be removed for the remainder of the test.

4.7.7. Force-on-Force Training Module. Inspect to see if the JCP has a force-on-force training module.

4.8. Workmanship. In accordance with paragraph 3.8, verify workmanship and finish of the pistol are in accordance with the best commercial practice.

4.9. Weapons Rack. Verify the JCP is capable of being secured in the M14 Small Arms Storage Rack, NSN 1095-01-236-2203.

4.10. Identification markings. Verify the JCP is marked in accordance with paragraph 3.10.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:33:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
Ruger KP345PR (American Made - only 8+1)

www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/247L.gif

Taurus PT 24/7 PRO (US/Brazil - 12+1) SA/DA

www.taurususa.com/imagesMain/H_247-45BP-10.jpg




Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:10:50 AM EDT
An un-necessary change, but if they do it, I hope-

1. They choose a .45 with a reasonable magazine capacity, not a single stack.
2. They don't make it some monsterously huge boat anchor. Some of the bigger HK's are ridiculous.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:57:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ED_P:
An un-necessary change, but if they do it, I hope-

1. They choose a .45 with a reasonable magazine capacity, not a single stack.
2. They don't make it some monsterously huge boat anchor. Some of the bigger HK's are ridiculous.




From the above:
3.3.1. Magazine Capacity. The JCP shall have a standard magazine capacity of no less than eight rounds (T), greater than eight rounds (O) of .45 ACP ammunition. The JCP shall also have a high-capacity magazine of no less than ten [10] rounds (T), fifteen [15] rounds (O), of .45 ACP ammunition.

T means "threashold", which is what the pistol must meet. O means "objective" which would be preferred.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:10:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
Ruger KP345PR (American Made - only 8+1)

www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/247L.gif

Taurus PT 24/7 PRO (US/Brazil - 12+1) SA/DA

www.taurususa.com/imagesMain/H_247-45BP-10.jpg






I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that amusing....
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:11:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
Ruger KP345PR (American Made - only 8+1)

www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/247L.gif

Taurus PT 24/7 PRO (US/Brazil - 12+1) SA/DA

www.taurususa.com/imagesMain/H_247-45BP-10.jpg






I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that amusing....



There can only be one....1911
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:49:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 9:54:47 AM EDT by dajini]
I don't know why you're all so happy about them going back to .45.

Unless you've actually shot someone with a 9mm and a .45 to compare, you shouldn't be talking.

Remember, that ANY pistol round out that (or any pistol for that matter) is a very weak and underpowered weapon, especially when the military is only issuing FMJ's.

And for the people that are such big fans of 1911s: yeah. I sure do love 1500$+ guns that require another 400$ worth of tweaking and maintence till you can actually get it to fire right, and that great 7 round magazine.
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