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Posted: 1/11/2006 11:01:02 AM EDT
What is the best way to conduct low light shooting with standard iron sights? Do white dots help? I would guess that night sights are a bad idea on a combat weapon. So what is the prevailing wisdom on this and how to practice? I currently have an M3X that I use, but then being prepared for failure is part of the game - right?

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:21:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASNixon:
I would guess that night sights are a bad idea on a combat weapon.




Why would U think it is a bad idea for a combat weapon? It is in fact the opposite.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:37:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shipwreck:

Originally Posted By ASNixon:
I would guess that night sights are a bad idea on a combat weapon.




Why would U think it is a bad idea for a combat weapon? It is in fact the opposite.



Only because it might become a beacon to your position in a low light/night situation. It was only a guess as I posted. I could easily be wrong, but know that the current wisdom is you don't run your weapon light constantly because it makes you an easier target to find. Seems logical that night sights could possibly do the same harm, even if they are not as intense as the weapon light, through movement.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:43:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:44:34 PM EDT by demigod]

Originally Posted By ASNixon:
Only because it might become a beacon to your position in a low light/night situation. It was only a guess as I posted. I could easily be wrong, but know that the current wisdom is you don't run your weapon light constantly because it makes you an easier target to find. Seems logical that night sights could possibly do the same harm, even if they are not as intense as the weapon light, through movement.



Night sights are certainly not a beacon unless you are pointing your weapon at yourself. I took a Surefire based low light class and thus am indifferent to having night sights since you have to ID what you're going to shoot anyway. I had them, but got ride of them.

Take a class and see what works for you. Then decide if you want the night sights.

A better investment is a "tactical" light. I brought a Mag lite to my first low light handgun class.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:01:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 1:47:33 PM EDT by BobCole]

Originally Posted By ASNixon:
What is the best way to conduct low light shooting with standard iron sights? Do white dots help? I would guess that night sights are a bad idea on a combat weapon. So what is the prevailing wisdom on this and how to practice?




Aside from asking the bad guy to hold up a light & wear hunter orange, night sights are indeed your best bet for night shots. 3-dots are better than flat black sights, for certain.

As for practice, shooting at night is obviously the best way. If you cannot do that, go into a windowless room at night, turn all the lights out & practice dry firing an empty gun. This will allow you to learn how to pick up the sights at night.

My .o2
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:03:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By ASNixon:
What is the best way to conduct low light shooting with standard iron sights? Do white dots help? I would guess that night sights are a bad idea on a combat weapon. So what is the prevailing wisdom on this and how to practice?




Aside from asking the bad guy to hod up a light & wear hunter orange, night sights are indeed your best bet for night shots. 3-dots are better than flat black sights, for certain.

As for practice, shooting at night is obviously the best way. If you cannot do that, go into a windowless room at night, turn all the lights out & practice dry firing an empty gun. This will allow you to learn how to pick up the sights at night.

My .o2



+1

night sights are the best (next to a tac light)
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:35:49 PM EDT
I shot a low light tournament a couple of weeks ago. I used a XD-9 with night sights and an M3 on the rail. You were only allowed to have your light on while engaging targets. The light had to be off while moving and reloading. Not only was it a lot of fun I felt it was a great learning experience as this is the actual setup I use for home protection.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:54:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By ASNixon:
What is the best way to conduct low light shooting with standard iron sights? Do white dots help? I would guess that night sights are a bad idea on a combat weapon. So what is the prevailing wisdom on this and how to practice?




Aside from asking the bad guy to hod up a light & wear hunter orange, night sights are indeed your best bet for night shots. 3-dots are better than flat black sights, for certain.

As for practice, shooting at night is obviously the best way. If you cannot do that, go into a windowless room at night, turn all the lights out & practice dry firing an empty gun. This will allow you to learn how to pick up the sights at night.

My .o2



Can you explain to me why you would shoot at something you can't see? If it's so dark you can't identify your target, how do you know what you are shooting?

Night sights are great for dusk and dawn, and if you are in a shadowed area that makes your sights hard to see.
I think the original poster is confusing the term "night sights" with "flashlight" with regards to giving away your position at night. A night sight is an illuminated dot on your weapon sight.
To answer your question, yes, a flashlight will give your position away. There are techniques that deal with this issue though, but it would be difficult to explain them all on the internet. I would recommend some professional training.
Everyone has different prefferences with regards to lights, and there is no one answer, but I preffer a hand held Surefire E2E for low light shooting. I'm not a big fan of weapon lights for home defense. YMMV. The reasons for this is what ever you are covering with your light, you are covering with your weapon. I don't like to point my weapon at things I don't want shot. That, and it is difficult to do a detailed search with a weapon light because you have to put your weapon in the places you want to look. There are those that say you don't have to cover someone with your muzzle if you use the edge of your light, but that is not practical. My flashlight technique has me go from eyes, to hands, then center mass. This is pretty fast, reliable and easy. With a weapon light, but not trying to muzzle sweep them you have to try and put the edge of the light on the subject just right, and then go through the head hands CM after. That's a lot slower, and the subject can see until you splash their eyes.

Sorry to rant, I'll stop before this turns into a novel about my personal opinions that you may not even agree with.

I would suggest some training to find out what technique works best for you. You'll never regret low light training because the vast majority of gunfights happen in the dark. Your weapon light is fine for offensive engagements, like if you live alone, and don't have roommates or a dog or a girlfriend that could pop in unexpectedly.

This is a topic of great interest to me, so I would be more than happy to discuss it further.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:25:33 PM EDT
The club I belong to runs a black light shoot once a month. No night sights allowed, but parts of the target are done up in fluorescent marker, so when the black lights in the ceiling are on, those areas light up pretty well. Apart from several low wattage black lights all lights are extinguished when the buzzer sounds. You start at the low ready position. This is a really fun way to get accustomed to low light shooting. You might want to see if anyone in your area is doing anything like it. It really is a hoot.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:49:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Emoto:
The club I belong to runs a black light shoot once a month. No night sights allowed, but parts of the target are done up in fluorescent marker, so when the black lights in the ceiling are on, those areas light up pretty well. Apart from several low wattage black lights all lights are extinguished when the buzzer sounds. You start at the low ready position. This is a really fun way to get accustomed to low light shooting. You might want to see if anyone in your area is doing anything like it. It really is a hoot.



Why are night sights not allowed? How do you get a sight picture if you can't see your sights? Is it because the black lights light up the standard dots that some sights have? Not trying to be a buzz kill, but how does this help you prepare for low light shooting, aside from learning to do weapon manipulation in the dark? Most experienced shooters don't have to look at their weapon to operate it anyway, but that comes from practice and muscle memory. Targets don't usually light themselves up in a real low light shoot scenario. So, you are shooting a gun that has sights you can't see at a target that lights itself up for you. That doesn't sound like a very good way to train for low light. It sounds like fun, don't get me wrong. Like a novelty, something to break the tedium of regular shooting. It doesn't sound like very solid training.
This is just my non expert opinion based on the small amount of information I got from your post. I don't mean to sound negative, this sounds like a lot of fun, and I'm not knocking it. I just don't understand the reasoning behind it.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:54:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 6:55:23 AM EDT by ASNixon]

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
This is a topic of great interest to me, so I would be more than happy to discuss it further.



Not stopping you - go for it. Any information or experience on this subject is most welcome. I have an XD-9 with Hienie Slant Pros (straight eights) and a Kahr P9 w/ trijicons. I prefer the slant pros. I also have an XD-40 and wondered about keeping that one with traditional three-dots. I might, as of this post, put a set of heinie's on it.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 9:30:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 9:33:04 AM EDT by 2IDdoc]
My only concern about discussing this topic in an in-depth manner on the internet is that it cannot really compare to real professional training. I won't be able to get you up to speed by describing technique online. There is a hands on element that is crucial to proper execution of these techniques. Furthermore, describing these methods in a half assed manner could potentially do more harm than good. That said these are also just my opinions, and as always YMMV. My opinion is not the final word by a long shot, I am not a professional firearms trainer. Of course, anyone should feel free to correct anything that seems off about any of my statements. I am always happy to discuss this topic.

I have two fighting handguns. A G17 and a G19. I have other handguns, but these are the guns I carry and train the most with. They are stock except for some skateboard tape on the grips and a Trijicon green front sight post. An illuminated front sight post has been more than sufficient for my needs. The rear night sights seem to me to have too much glare, and don't seem necessary. The front sight post is what usually washes out in low light. I also think that the green color lamps are the brightest. They last about twelve years and are in my opinion necessary on a gun that you plan to use for self defense.

For a flashlight to be used in a defensive capacity it should have at least 60 lumens. The quality of the beam of light makes a big difference as well. Surefire makes fantastic defensive flashlights that I have trained with and have confidence in. I carry the E2E with me everywhere. That includes commercial flights. The E2E has 65 lumens of clear focused light that will run for about 1 hour. I don't use a lanyard and discourage others from using it unless they are in a military setting. The lanyards are break away, but it takes a considerable amount of force to make them actually break away. Enough to possibly seperate your shoulder. I carry my SF in my weak side pocket with the pocket clip. There are a great variety of lights on the market to choose from, and you should find the one that suits your needs. For a handgun 60 lumens should be the minimum. A rifle is different, and I won't go into that here.

A flashlight is a fantastic defensive tool. It has a variety of potential applications in low light scenarios. For example, if you are at an ATM and a guy starts getting too close for comfort, you can splash him with you light, it's not illegal. This can result in a number of beneficial outcomes. It will more than likely reset the bad guys OODA or PADE loop, causing him to potentially rethink his plan. That gives you time to take the initiative, and flee or fight. It can effectively blind the guy for a short period of time as well, giving you more room to workand allow you to maneuver. If he is very close, the SF makes a good impact weapon. With the light onand shining in the eyes, it can be used to strike right between the eyes of the attacker, and he probably won't even see it coming. It hurts enough that he won't want you to do it again. There are a number of other ways to strike with the SF as well. It's great for searches in low light, but as mentioned before it can give away your position.

I rpefer the cheek mount for low light applications. This means that the light is held in my weakside hand with my thumb pointed toward my direction, and the palm of the hand resting against my jaw. The knuckles of the hand will bne resting on my cheekbone. The light will be pointing out toward the attacker. Wherever my head moves, the light moves too, and if I want to see my sights, the gun moves as well. That's how it should be. This means I will be shooting stronghand only, but I have no problem with that. The sights of the gun will be on the edge of the light beam, and it will illuminate the sights, and the target. The technique has you shine your light on the eyes, then hands(to look for a weapon), and then center mass. To engage in weapon manipulation, the forefinger on the light hand pushes the light behind itself, and allows use of the forefinger and thumb. I can do mag changes and malfunction drills with no trouble in this position.

You should remember that lateral movement can be detected by someone that has been "blinded" by a flashlight. This is because the rods in the eye that control your peripheral vision are not disrupted like the cones that enable you to see color. The cones are located near the middle of the retina, and that is where the blind spot is created. You should try your light out on yourself to get a feel for what effect it will actually have. In some of the training I've had, our instructor shined our lights in our eyes for one second, and we were told to fire as soon as we could see the target again. It gave a better understanding of the real effects of the light.

There are other very effective methods of shooting with a light. I personally think that the cheek weld is the best. There are Surefire grips, Rogers grip, the FBI hold, and so on as well as different methods of searching to prevent giving away your position like wanding or strobing. It would take a long time to go over each of these methods. I would encourage you to get training that will introduce you to all of them, and allow you to choose the one that fits you best. The stuff I briefly described above is not very well explained. I left out a ton of stuff. I would be happy to answer any specific questions you have to the best of my limited ability. I'm not entirely sure what you are looking for specifically, so this was a broad post that didn't zero in on many specifics. I hope it was useful. I also hope you decide to get training. You will never regret it, and you will learn way more than you would ever learn frmo some no name guy like me on the internet.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 9:42:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
This is a topic of great interest to me, so I would be more than happy to discuss it further.




Hey 2IDdoc
Being dumb on this subject...
If you are using some kind of light, doesn't that mess up your eyes? Going from light to dark, or light on and maybe suddenly ending up in the dark? I don't know. I'm told there are few guys in the Mesa area that offer clases in this matter. When things calm down in my schedule, I want to take an advanced handgun class, and then look into some kind of low light class.
Your thoughts would be appreciated
Learning
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 10:12:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Still-Learning:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
This is a topic of great interest to me, so I would be more than happy to discuss it further.




Hey 2IDdoc
Being dumb on this subject...
If you are using some kind of light, doesn't that mess up your eyes? Going from light to dark, or light on and maybe suddenly ending up in the dark? I don't know. I'm told there are few guys in the Mesa area that offer clases in this matter. When things calm down in my schedule, I want to take an advanced handgun class, and then look into some kind of low light class.
Your thoughts would be appreciated
Learning



If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if the flashlight will disrupt your night vision during use?
I haven't seen any negative effects on my eyes while using a flashlight that is pointing at someone else. There have been instances where shining it through a window I got enough splashback to mess with my vision. That's why it's a good idea to shine your light at an angle on a window. The strobing technique seems to be pretty confusing sometimes, especially in a room that has white painted walls that reflect light(glossy). The light strobes on and off and reflects from a bunch of different angles, and it can cause some confusion. Mirrors can be an issue just like any other reflective surface.

Other than that, if it is dark in a room, and you shine your light, you will see better(sorry to sound dumb). When your light goes off, your eyes, may need to adjust a little, but since it's dark anyway you can't really see anyway, and you can just turn your light back on if you want to see again.

In the Arizona area I would highly recomend Jeff Gonzalez(Trident Concepts). IMHO he is one of the best in the business, and has excellent low light training available. He even has a low light portion to his combative pistol class. I have taken three handgun classes from him, and they were all tremendous learning experiences. I can't say enough good things.

I really hope you get into some training. You will really enjoy it, and the benefits are impossible to quantify. Good luck, you will never regret training.

2IDdoc

Oh, if I didn't answer your question, I'd be happy to take another shot at it. Sorry if I misunderstood. Like I said before, I'm not a pro, and this is just my limited opinion.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 10:25:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 10:27:47 AM EDT by wwglen]
I am not an expert in low level combat but I do remember reading about a training situation where the "pretend" bag guy was higher than the cops.

He stated that he could almost always track the cops location by the night sites glowing in their holsters or in their hands.

Now for home defense I MIGHT get some but there is always some ambiant light in my house so I can ID a threat.

wwglen
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:23:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wwglen:
I am not an expert in low level combat but I do remember reading about a training situation where the "pretend" bag guy was higher than the cops.

He stated that he could almost always track the cops location by the night sites glowing in their holsters or in their hands.

Now for home defense I MIGHT get some but there is always some ambiant light in my house so I can ID a threat.

wwglen



I would suspect there were some other training issues there that needed to be adressed aside from the night sight issue. If the bad guy was sitting above the cops watching them, that means they didn't clear the room properly, because he would also have to be behind them. An instance like this would be pretty rare, and it sounds like the night sights were not entirely to blame for the situation. Then again I could be wrong.
For most practical applications night sights should not create any issues. Interesting story though.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:40:38 PM EDT
The old "but what if a ninja sees my night sights, sneaks up behind me, and garrotes me?" scenario. The concern is a little over rated.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 1:07:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 1:09:50 PM EDT by MEI2757935]
I'm not an expert by far, but this is what I’ve heard is the correct course of action.

Scenario:

Low light environment with a side-arm and a tactical light. Doesn't matter if you have night sights or not...but they are very helpful. Bad guy breaks in...what do I do?

----------

What I’ve been told is to momentarily shine the light into the "bad guys" eyes to not only identify the object you will be shooting at, but to also temporarily blind him.

If you think the same would happen to you...of course it will. However the eyes are a very wonderful thing. I won't go into the physiology of the eye...but rodopsin is the chemical that allows you to see or adapt to night environments. Bright lights destroy that chemical...thus making it harder to see again in the low light situation.

To prevent this from happening....close your dominant eye....flash the "bad guy" and then shut the light off. You will be able to see once again when the light is off...he will not be able to.

Commence firing!





ETA - Sounds like a lot to do. I say shine the mother and blow his brains out. The light is always brighter when it is being pointed at you. You have the advantage. Not to mention your playing at home.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 1:50:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Can you explain to me why you would shoot at something you can't see? If it's so dark you can't identify your target, how do you know what you are shooting?





A hostage situation springs to mind. You're a bit of distance away from a perp & he/she is holding your fill-in-the-blank as a shield or method of guarantee for his/her safety. I'm sure there's others but this springs immediately to mind.

Keep in mind, "can't see" something isn't quite the same as liking night sights for a precise shot.

My .o2
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 1:52:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wwglen:

He stated that he could almost always track the cops location by the night sites glowing in their holsters or in their hands.





He is full of shit, IMO.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 2:09:57 PM EDT
Hey 2IDdoc

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if the flashlight will disrupt your night vision during use? Yes you did understand my question very well.


In the Arizona area I would highly recomend Jeff Gonzalez(Trident Concepts). IMHO he is one of the best in the business, and has excellent low light training available. He even has a low light portion to his combative pistol class. I have taken three handgun classes from him, and they were all tremendous learning experiences. I can't say enough good things. I shall look into this, thanks.

I really hope you get into some training. You will really enjoy it, and the benefits are impossible to quantify. Good luck, you will never regret training.
Oh, if I didn't answer your question, I'd be happy to take another shot at it. Sorry if I misunderstood. Like I said before, I'm not a pro, and this is just my limited opinion.

You did answer my question very well. I thank you for taking time to do so. I should like to pick your brain in the future. I know I need more training. I intend to get some.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 3:44:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Can you explain to me why you would shoot at something you can't see? If it's so dark you can't identify your target, how do you know what you are shooting?





A hostage situation springs to mind. You're a bit of distance away from a perp & he/she is holding your fill-in-the-blank as a shield or method of guarantee for his/her safety. I'm sure there's others but this springs immediately to mind.

Keep in mind, "can't see" something isn't quite the same as liking night sights for a precise shot.

My .o2



Now I'm even more confused. I would think that a hostage situation would be one where being able to see your target would be of utmost importance. I have to be misunderstanding what you're saying. Are the bad guy and hostage illuminated or in the dark? Or, are you shooting from a dark closet or something where you can't see your sights?
My original point was that night sights are really only useful for about ahalf an hour in the morning when the sun is coming up, and for about a half an hour in the evening when the sun is going down. That and for shooting from a darkened position into a lighted one. When both shooter and goblin are in the dark, the shooter needs to be using a light to identify what he is shooting at. Shooting into the dark is dangerous and irresponsible. I think the fourth rule of handgun safety is to know your target and what lies beyond. Without a light you can't know that.
I think I misunderstood what you were saying.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 3:53:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Still-Learning:
Hey 2IDdoc

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if the flashlight will disrupt your night vision during use? Yes you did understand my question very well.


In the Arizona area I would highly recomend Jeff Gonzalez(Trident Concepts). IMHO he is one of the best in the business, and has excellent low light training available. He even has a low light portion to his combative pistol class. I have taken three handgun classes from him, and they were all tremendous learning experiences. I can't say enough good things. I shall look into this, thanks.

I really hope you get into some training. You will really enjoy it, and the benefits are impossible to quantify. Good luck, you will never regret training.
Oh, if I didn't answer your question, I'd be happy to take another shot at it. Sorry if I misunderstood. Like I said before, I'm not a pro, and this is just my limited opinion.

You did answer my question very well. I thank you for taking time to do so. I should like to pick your brain in the future. I know I need more training. I intend to get some.



I'm glad I could be of some help. Feel free to ask me a question any time. I might even be able to answer it. You never know.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:41:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

I have to be misunderstanding what you're saying. Are the bad guy and hostage illuminated or in the dark? Or, are you shooting from a dark closet or something where you can't see your sights?




Low light level for everyone is what I'm saying. Inside a dark building, out in the country with no street lights, in the city during a power outage, etc. etc.

Clear as mud now????
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:14:25 PM EDT
OK BobCole, I understand now, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't know how you would be able to shoot a hostage taker that you couldn't see. If the hostage taker was in close physical proximity to the hostage it would be even more difficult. Even in good lighting a shot to free a hostage that is being physically held by a bad guy would be pretty tricky(to me anyway). Having sights that light up is great, but if you can't see the target you're, as the saying goes,"taking a shot in the dark". I don't think that I would personally use that as a strategy or a reason to have night sights.
I don't know what training you've had or anything like that, but noone I've ever trained with has ever suggested this as a way to deal with a low light scenario. I'm not a professional or anything, but I don't think I'd shoot at someone if I couldn't clearly see them. YMMV.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 2:25:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
OK BobCole, I understand now, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't know how you would be able to shoot a hostage taker that you couldn't see.




Sigh. Dude, I understand you're from WV, but c'mon, is it THAT hard to understand what I'm saying????? Can you not deign the difference between "low light" & "pitch black fucking dark"???????
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:35:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
OK BobCole, I understand now, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't know how you would be able to shoot a hostage taker that you couldn't see.




Sigh. Dude, I understand you're from WV, but c'mon, is it THAT hard to understand what I'm saying????? Can you not deign the difference between "low light" & "pitch black fucking dark"???????



O.K., you just said,

Low light level for everyone is what I'm saying. Inside a dark building, out in the country with no street lights, in the city during a power outage, etc. etc.
.
I don't know what your definition of "low light" is, but it sounds a whole hell of a lot like pitch black to me. Shooting in the dark IS low light shooting. I'm starting to wonder if you have ever done any shooting in a reduced light setting. In all the situations you described in the quote above would require a light to engage a hostage taker. If you aren't using a light you're seriously fucking up. That is not what night sights were designed for. Being from Tennessee I would imaging that you have been out in the country where there are no street lights at night time. You can't see shit, especially during a new moon. In a dark building? Come on, how bright is that going to be? Considering you used the word "dark" to describe the building, one should be relatively free to reason that you are saying there is very little light, if any at all. Apparently the definition of "dark" is different in TN.
I think getting some of these terms sorted out would result in a more cogent discussion.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:30:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
...Can you explain to me why you would shoot at something you can't see? If it's so dark you can't identify your target, how do you know what you are shooting?...


Lets say you can dimly see the outline of a person who is shooting at you!!

Depending on how you store it, nightlights can also make it easier to locate your handgun when lying in bed and something goes bump!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:52:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 10:54:20 PM EDT by EternalVigilance]
i only have one contribution to make to this thread, and thats regarding the whole idea that you will never ever need to shoot someone in near pitch dark, because you can't identify them thing. I have heard this argument many times, and many times I have heard people come up with examples against it. The only people that live in my house are me and my wife. Lets say its pitch black, and she's in the bed with me. I know this because I heard a noise and stood up with my pistol, and she is holding onto me from behind because she is scared. Now some guy comes running through the hallway that I can't see, but I can hear him running down the hallway towards my bedroom, and I hear him yelling "allah akhbar!", and I also hear gun-shots. Well guess what, I'm shooting his ass/shooting into the hallway.

That's one lame example. I'm tired and don't want to try created a comprehensive list or anything, but there are much better examples I have heard before that I can't think of off the top of my head right now. But the need could arise to shoot someone that you have identified through other senses/circumstances when you cannot actually see them, or your sights, because it is pitch black.


That said, I personally can't bring myself to put night sights on any of my glocks. I had trijjicons on my G22 and just couldn't pick them up as fast as the stock sights in normal lighting. I got ride of that pistol and haven't tried again on any of my other ones.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:57:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
OK BobCole, I understand now, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't know how you would be able to shoot a hostage taker that you couldn't see.




Sigh. Dude, I understand you're from WV, but c'mon, is it THAT hard to understand what I'm saying????? Can you not deign the difference between "low light" & "pitch black fucking dark"???????



O.K., you just said,

Low light level for everyone is what I'm saying. Inside a dark building, out in the country with no street lights, in the city during a power outage, etc. etc.
.
I don't know what your definition of "low light" is, but it sounds a whole hell of a lot like pitch black to me. Shooting in the dark IS low light shooting. I'm starting to wonder if you have ever done any shooting in a reduced light setting. In all the situations you described in the quote above would require a light to engage a hostage taker. If you aren't using a light you're seriously fucking up. That is not what night sights were designed for. Being from Tennessee I would imaging that you have been out in the country where there are no street lights at night time. You can't see shit, especially during a new moon. In a dark building? Come on, how bright is that going to be? Considering you used the word "dark" to describe the building, one should be relatively free to reason that you are saying there is very little light, if any at all. Apparently the definition of "dark" is different in TN.
I think getting some of these terms sorted out would result in a more cogent discussion.




imagine the perpetrator and the hostage are standing in a spot-light, and you are in a completely pitch black corner of the house/building.

hey, it could happen


Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:32:03 AM EDT
Eternal vigilance, there will always be a "what if" involved with shots being taken at an unknown object. What if the person I shot wasn't who I thought they were, what if the situation wasn't what I thought it was, did I hit my target and kill him, or is he just laying there waiting for me to turn the lights on so he has a better shot at me after I just fired 15 rounds blindly down the hall way in his direction? Shooting into the dark leads to "what if"s. Using a firearm in defense is not a maybe, or what if kind of deal. You have to know for certain, because the consequences are quite severe. Shooting into the dark is an irresponsible action that leads to shooting an unknown target, with unknown accuracy, with unknown effect.
With some training the proper technique not only leads to increased safety, it elliminates a lot of the "what if"s. It leads to more certainty and greater decisiveness of action in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, there are times when hanging your pistol around the corner and just firing down the hall can work pretty well. Hopefully you know what's down the hallway. If you stick your head around a corner and start taking fire, I wouldn't blame a guy for not wanting to stick his head back out again.
I train for low light the way I have been taught by professional shooters. The methods they teach lead to more predictable and consistant results(to an extent of course). After doing some training the reasoning for these techniques became very apparent and understandable. I see no reason why I wouldn't react the same way for a guy running down the hall yelling Allah ackbar, and for an unknown intruder. Splashing a light on him will make him more visible, and maybe blind him while I fill him with lead.

imagine the perpetrator and the hostage are standing in a spot-light, and you are in a completely pitch black corner of the house/building.

hey, it could happen


I already asked about this scenario earlier in the thread. That would be a good time to have night sights. If the target is already illuminated, it doesn't make much sense to shine a flashlight on them does it?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:55:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 7:00:28 AM EDT by EternalVigilance]

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
Eternal vigilance, there will always be a "what if" involved with shots being taken at an unknown object. What if the person I shot wasn't who I thought they were, what if the situation wasn't what I thought it was, did I hit my target and kill him, or is he just laying there waiting for me to turn the lights on so he has a better shot at me after I just fired 15 rounds blindly down the hall way in his direction? Shooting into the dark leads to "what if"s. Using a firearm in defense is not a maybe, or what if kind of deal. You have to know for certain, because the consequences are quite severe. Shooting into the dark is an irresponsible action that leads to shooting an unknown target, with unknown accuracy, with unknown effect.
With some training the proper technique not only leads to increased safety, it elliminates a lot of the "what if"s. It leads to more certainty and greater decisiveness of action in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, there are times when hanging your pistol around the corner and just firing down the hall can work pretty well. Hopefully you know what's down the hallway. If you stick your head around a corner and start taking fire, I wouldn't blame a guy for not wanting to stick his head back out again.
I train for low light the way I have been taught by professional shooters. The methods they teach lead to more predictable and consistant results(to an extent of course). After doing some training the reasoning for these techniques became very apparent and understandable. I see no reason why I wouldn't react the same way for a guy running down the hall yelling Allah ackbar, and for an unknown intruder. Splashing a light on him will make him more visible, and maybe blind him while I fill him with lead.

imagine the perpetrator and the hostage are standing in a spot-light, and you are in a completely pitch black corner of the house/building.

hey, it could happen


I already asked about this scenario earlier in the thread. That would be a good time to have night sights. If the target is already illuminated, it doesn't make much sense to shine a flashlight on them does it?





I agree with everything you said except on one point. And that point is the idea that you shouldn't be prepared for a situation where you may have to shoot at someone who you cannot see. I'm not saying that its likely, and I am not trying to discount target identification in any way shape or form. My point is that you shouldn't just say, well you could NEVER shoot at someone who you cannot see. If somebody is shooting at you in the woods, and all you see is muzzle flash, it might be a good idea for you to aim for that muzzle flash. Its also possible that you could make out the shilouette of someone who is running in and out of ambient light without being able to make out the details of their face. Also, what happens if the one time you need your weapon, your flashlight just happens to die or not be with you?


I am not saying that your approach isn't the right one for 99% of cases. What i am saying is that you shouldn't tell people not to prepare for the possibility of needing to shoot someone in the dark.

Oh yeah, and my hallways pretty skinny. It would be hard not to hit someone shooting straight down the hallway. Spray and pray isn't exactly my preffered method. But if someone is sprinting down the hallway firing an AK at me and all I can see is the occasional muzzle flash, well I don't really have time to turn the lights on. Yeah this is what a flashlight is good for, but I am just illustrating a point, that if you didn't have one, you'd need to shoot in the dark.


ETA: I think I finally figured out what point shooting is good for. When its pitch black in your bedroom and you have to hold back the terrorist hoarde trying to overrun your position, wearing nothing but your underwear.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:14:35 AM EDT
2IDDoc, I agree with you on almost all counts, with one exception: With the availability of weapons mounted systems, there's no excuse not to have a light affixed to your fighting handgun.

Two lights; one in your pocket, one on the gun.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 9:44:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Apparently the definition of "dark" is different in TN.
I think getting some of these terms sorted out would result in a more cogent discussion.




"Dark" is just that, it doesn NOT necessarily mean "pitch black". Just as we all can walk down the road at night & not run into mail boxes, there are indeed varying degrees of "darkness". A full moon, starlight or ambient light are just a few of the things that can allow one to see a perp while still needing/using night sights.

One will not always be inside a bank vault or a cargo box with the door closed to have "no light" from the sun or street lights.

Aside from this, you wish to continue to split hairs, please do so with someone else for a while. You've exhausted my patience.

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:57:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:
2IDDoc, I agree with you on almost all counts, with one exception: With the availability of weapons mounted systems, there's no excuse not to have a light affixed to your fighting handgun.

Two lights; one in your pocket, one on the gun.



That's an idea that is very interesting to me. I guess it goes along with the philosophy that says two lights are one, and one light is none? Lithium batteries in particular tend to go out pretty quickly, and I frequently catch myself wondering how much life there is left in my light. Honestly, having one on the weapon and one hand light sounds better and better the more I think about it. There really are a lot of advantages to a weapon light. I would much rather use two hands to shoot than one. I think I'll be looking into a weapon light for the bedside gun.
I do have some concerns about a weapon mounted light for concealed carry though. I carry a Glock 19 in an IWB holster. Do you carry, or know anyone that carries IWB with a weapon mounted light? Is that practical? I'm going to look around and see what options there are for an IWB weapon with a mounted light. It would be worth trying I think. I'm always pretty hesitant to add more weight to my carry rig, or to make it more cumbersome. I would be interested to hear more about CCW and a weapon mounted light.
Which light is your primary for a CCW engagement? How about home defense? Is the weapon light something you would transition to if the hand held failed, or if the engagement became protracted?
I think the weapon light would be my primary for an offensive engagement like for a SWAT type takedown, or an infantry team doing CQC. However I like the flexibility the hand held gives me for CCW and home defense use.
It would be educational to hear your view.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:13:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
OK BobCole, I understand now, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't know how you would be able to shoot a hostage taker that you couldn't see.




Sigh. Dude, I understand you're from WV, but c'mon, is it THAT hard to understand what I'm saying????? Can you not deign the difference between "low light" & "pitch black fucking dark"???????



Having a bad day Bob?
Learning
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:07:25 AM EDT
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