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Posted: 12/27/2005 9:43:59 PM EDT
I just picked up a Streamlight M3 for my Glock 17 and I honestly dont know why I didnt do it sooner.

Some typical responses for reasons not to own one.

The bad guy will know right where you are and shoot at the light
Not necessarily true, if he has been blinded by the light...there is no chance he will see you. If you dont believe me, wake up about 3:00 in the morning and have your wife/girlfriend flash that light in your eyes.....tell me. what do you see?

With a handheld light the bad guy will shoot and miss because I am sticking it above my head or away from my body
True, he will probably shoot at the light....but your arm is attached to the lightAlso, unless you practice shooting one handed this will leave you extremely vulnerable.

What you see is what you shoot with a mounted light. This may help you to get out alive should you come across a would-be attacker. Personally, I think all the shit about looking at your front sight would fly right out the window if I was confronted by an attacker.


I plan on getting some training on using this weaponlight to save my life. I thought I would recommend the same to everyone else who has a rail.

Cheers
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:57:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 9:57:31 PM EDT by THellURider]
Anything you point the light at you're covering with your weapon, which might be your 10 year old nephew.

Additionally, anything within range of the flashlight is within your ability to hit shooting one handed, especially in a self defense scenario.

One must also train to shoot using the weapon mounted light as you are exerting new forces on the gun which will affect your ability to hit what you aim at.


To your points:

1. So you shoot at the center of that orb of light in your vision.

2. Why are you not practicing shooting one handed? Both strong side and weak side? FWIW I'd rather be shot in the arm than CoM.

but I see no reason NOT to own one is additon to a good handheld light with a lanyard. However, given the choice in a non LEO/.mil scenario I'd rather have a hand held.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:19:41 PM EDT
Because nobody has ever explained to me how to use a light mounted on a gun without breaking rule #2


Rule 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:50:11 PM EDT
My reasons are purely based on my opinion and not facts.
1. They make the pistol too bulky to me, makes it harder to find a holster. I can't conceal carry it with light attached it and I'm not gonna carry that bulky thing my pocket.
2. I prefer 1911s, 1911s look funny to me with a light rail. Althought I went through a phase when I really wanted a railed 1911.
3. Agree with above, I have to point the weapon in the direction of the noise to see what it is and that don't fly with me.

That and those damn little lights are very expensive.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:56:11 PM EDT
Generally lights are risky to dumb anyone with a lick of common sense will shoot at the light and you will be behind it.


Lights & Lasers = Bullet magnets
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:01:01 PM EDT
They're great for those late night trips to the bathroom.

One of my pistols has a light, the other has night sights. I feel I have the bases covered betweed the two.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:19:46 AM EDT
I don't use one because I have cat-vision, ninja reflexes, and can disable a man with mind-bullets.

Seriously.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:44:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 6of1:
Because nobody has ever explained to me how to use a light mounted on a gun without breaking rule #2


Rule 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.



Even if you were searching with a handheld light your eyes will go where the light is pointed, and your weapon should go wherever your eyes do.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:20:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wombat_SCSO:

Originally Posted By 6of1:
Because nobody has ever explained to me how to use a light mounted on a gun without breaking rule #2


Rule 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.



Even if you were searching with a handheld light your eyes will go where the light is pointed, and your weapon should go wherever your eyes do.



sounds like good reason to keep your finger off the trigger til you are ready. isn't that firearms rule #2 anyways.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:37:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 6:37:58 AM EDT by Msokol13]

Originally Posted By 6of1:
Because nobody has ever explained to me how to use a light mounted on a gun without breaking rule #2


Rule 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.



You've been reading too many Daisy pellet gun manuals.

Where ever your light goes...so should your gun. If you are too worried about pointing the muzzle at anything that is human you will probably end up dead.

finger on the trigger is another thing.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:51:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 6:54:47 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By THellURider:
Anything you point the light at you're covering with your weapon, which might be your 10 year old nephew.



AMEN! So you end up needing to light up a non threat with a weapon pointed at something it shouldn't be pointed at.
So you either have to use another hand held light or take the light off of the pistol. In either case you have defeated the purpose for a pistol mounted light.

Plus theres NO decent holsters for a weapon with a light mounted. And if you snap the light on AFTER you draw your weapon from your normal holster, you're fucked if you need to reholster one handed because you're holding someone with your support hand.

There's more drawbacks to pistol mounted lights than there are pluses.

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:30:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:44:03 AM EDT
You can effectively use the light without violating Rule 2.

I teach my guys the following (which is being taught in our state firearm instructor classes):

Weapon-mounted light- scan using muzzle depressed ready. The light doesn't have to be pointed directly at something to illuminate it. Try it - it works.

Handheld light married up to pistol in Ayoob/Surefire technique - scan using muzzle depressed ready.

Hands separate - pistol in holster, Sul, or guard - scan with light, present pistol to threat as necessary.

There is a plethora of holsters on the market now that will accept a gun-mounted light. Blade-tech and G-Code make concealment suitable holsters. Safariland makes the 6004 series.

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:03:09 AM EDT
Why??


Well, what's been said above, and;


$$$$



Going to cheap models isn't worth it, and decent models are between 100-300 dollars.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:10:51 AM EDT
Weapon mounted lights have momentary switches to avoid the "bad guy shooting at the light" problem. I shot an indoor pistol match in the dark last night. You were only allowed to have the light illuminated while engaging targets. While moving and reloading you had to have your light off. It worked very well. After shooting that match my home defense guns will always have lights.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:19:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gary-G23:
Weapon mounted lights have momentary switches to avoid the "bad guy shooting at the light" problem. I shot an indoor pistol match in the dark last night. You were only allowed to have the light illuminated while engaging targets. While moving and reloading you had to have your light off. It worked very well. After shooting that match my home defense guns will always have lights.



This goes for all combat lights. Weapon mounted or not. Of course I agree that a home defense gun should have a light mounted to it because it should be a LONG GUN.

Hand guns I prefer no light mounted.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:22:19 AM EDT
THellURider:


but I see no reason NOT to own one is additon to a good handheld light with a lanyard. However, given the choice in a non LEO/.mil scenario I'd rather have a hand held.


Liked your views on the other items, would you elaborate on why a handheld light, is a preffered option? No flame, I would like to know.
Thnks
Learning
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:31:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 9:33:07 AM EDT by Msokol13]

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
What does your girlfriend shining a bright flashlight in your eyes waking you from sleepiing have to do with a full alert armed intruder sneaking around your house at night. You will not be close enough to blind, disorient said intruder.Your eyes are adjusted to the dark...so is the intruders.

You will be searching for him in the dark when you should be securing a location to defend. This is defensive situation not a hunting trip. Also as you search around with your flashlight he will obviously see you comming.When did I ever say anything about "searching". The light has a momentary on/off switch. It would be used at the last second to blind the person...try it sometime to your kid or wife sneaking around the house at night...see what their reaction is.

Let's make it simple. You know your house and your layout, you can walk around it at night in the dark, the intruder can't.Having a light mounted to a gun "IF" you need it is simple. Having an extra hand Free while still having the option to use the light is still there

So if you were to go hunting for an intruder in your house. Which intruder would be easier to find, the one dressed in black in a ski mask, or the one dress in black in a ski mask walking around with a lit flashlight? If it's easier for to find a bandit with a flashlight then it's easier for said bandit to find you with your silly flashlight.



any other questions?
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:04:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 10:06:17 AM EDT by Waldo0506]

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
I just picked up a Streamlight M3 for my Glock 17 and I honestly dont know why I didnt do it sooner.

Some typical responses for reasons not to own one.

The bad guy will know right where you are and shoot at the light
Not necessarily true, if he has been blinded by the light...there is no chance he will see you. If you dont believe me, wake up about 3:00 in the morning and have your wife/girlfriend flash that light in your eyes.....tell me. what do you see?

With a handheld light the bad guy will shoot and miss because I am sticking it above my head or away from my body
True, he will probably shoot at the light....but your arm is attached to the lightAlso, unless you practice shooting one handed this will leave you extremely vulnerable.

What you see is what you shoot with a mounted light. This may help you to get out alive should you come across a would-be attacker. Personally, I think all the shit about looking at your front sight would fly right out the window if I was confronted by an attacker.


I plan on getting some training on using this weaponlight to save my life. I thought I would recommend the same to everyone else who has a rail.

Cheers



Bad guys dont wake up at 3am and decide to break into my house. Having a daywalker wake up in the middle of the night, shine a light in their eyes, and saying "what do you see" doesnt do the trick. Your not going to be shining your light at someone who just woke up and they probably only walk around at night anyway. Spend 3 years awake at night and asleep during the day, you can kinda see in the dark.

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:35:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gary-G23:
Weapon mounted lights have momentary switches to avoid the "bad guy shooting at the light" problem. I shot an indoor pistol match in the dark last night. You were only allowed to have the light illuminated while engaging targets. While moving and reloading you had to have your light off. It worked very well. After shooting that match my home defense guns will always have lights.



Outstanding.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:50:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:01:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
Got the gun (Warrior) now I just gotta figure which Light damn so many.............



Just save yourself the trouble and get a X200. You will eventually anyway.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:06:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By SGB:
Got the gun (Warrior) now I just gotta figure which Light damn so many.............



Just save yourself the trouble and get a X200. You will eventually anyway.



Yeah but which one? Choices choices...
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:13:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:28:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By SGB:
Got the gun (Warrior) now I just gotta figure which Light damn so many.............



Just save yourself the trouble and get a X200. You will eventually anyway.



Yeah but which one? Choices choices...






Thats easy, just flip a coin. A or B, you cannot go wrong either way.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:06:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 4:11:16 PM EDT by THellURider]

Originally Posted By Still-Learning:
THellURider:


but I see no reason NOT to own one is additon to a good handheld light with a lanyard. However, given the choice in a non LEO/.mil scenario I'd rather have a hand held.


Liked your views on the other items, would you elaborate on why a handheld light, is a preffered option? No flame, I would like to know.
Thnks
Learning



In a self defense situation you must be in fear for your life or a loved one's in order to be justified in using lethal force. Those distances are distances that one should have the ability to easily shoot one handed.

Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think

Also, low light training can be difficult to come by, especially light technique (as important as firearms training IMHO) , and shooting a gun while holding the light switch down on a weapon mounted light is more difficult to practice than one handed shooting.

Flashlights are useful things. I like to be able use mine for things other than IDing the intruder. Given a choice, I'd take the handheld, but certainly having BOTH (in true ARFCOM tradition) would be ideal.

Whatever you do, have a lanyard so that you can let go of the light to do mag changes, open doors etc. and the light remains quickly accessible to your weak hand. Additionaly, the lanyard can be used to "roll" a flashlight into a room allowing you to quickly scan the room without exposing yourself.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:16:05 PM EDT
I can't afford one.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:57:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Of course I agree that a home defense gun should have a light mounted to it because it should be a LONG GUN.

Hand guns I prefer no light mounted.




I agree completely, and for all the reasons previously mentioned.
I'll also add that I've never handled a light mounted pistol that felt completely natural to me.
Shifting my finger or thumb from the light switch to the trigger always caused a shift in grip. I'm better off shooting the gun one handed with the light in the other hand.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:52:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 6:55:13 PM EDT by fla556guy]
I would highly prefer to have a mounted light. Proper light/handgun shooting techniques place the light in the general area that a mounted light would be in. Every tried those one hand on gun, other on flashlight methods (minus the surefire's that are made specifically for this problem)? They suck compaired to the normal 2 hand grip on a combat handgun. You can't get the speed on target, fast follow up shots, etc. as you can with 2 hands on the gun (at least I find that I am faster with a 2 hand grip). Also, for the situations that I would be pointing that light at another person......I would be fully justified in doing so, because the potential for me destroying/hurting/killing them is there. Plus, putting a light and a bead on someone is better than having to shoot them, yes?

On a long gun....mounting it is obligatory if your going to use it effectivly.

Do I have one on my defensive handguns? No. I don't have the $ yet. (though I do have a nytrolin (SP) that I practice with, alongside my handgun.

Plus, the 2 large dogs that I have would probably keep the BG's attention spread in 3 different places. My light, and the two 90+ pound dogs. (Another +1 for having dogs---they are locked in the bedroom at night, so they serve as warning system too....)
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:37:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 7:49:57 PM EDT by Msokol13]

Originally Posted By Balisong:

Originally Posted By markm:

Of course I agree that a home defense gun should have a light mounted to it because it should be a LONG GUN.

Hand guns I prefer no light mounted.




I agree completely, and for all the reasons previously mentioned.
I'll also add that I've never handled a light mounted pistol that felt completely natural to me.
Shifting my finger or thumb from the light switch to the trigger always caused a shift in grip.


I'm better off shooting the gun one handed with the light in the other hand.



Depending on which convenient food store I am leaving I'm between 5'7" and 5'10"(Sorry-ripped the saying from the Blue Collar Comedy tour" Even with my short little fingers I am easily able to reach the switch on my Glock 17 with both my thumb and trigger finger without having to re-grip.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:34:04 AM EDT
I have an M3 on my nightstand gun. I also have a handheld Streamlight right next to it.

The weapon lights aren't a panacea for every problem -- they are just another tool for the toolbox. With the proper training and practice, they can give you a significant advantage in a conflict.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:41:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:

Originally Posted By Balisong:

Originally Posted By markm:

Of course I agree that a home defense gun should have a light mounted to it because it should be a LONG GUN.

Hand guns I prefer no light mounted.




I agree completely, and for all the reasons previously mentioned.
I'll also add that I've never handled a light mounted pistol that felt completely natural to me.
Shifting my finger or thumb from the light switch to the trigger always caused a shift in grip.


I'm better off shooting the gun one handed with the light in the other hand.



Depending on which convenient food store I am leaving I'm between 5'7" and 5'10"(Sorry-ripped the saying from the Blue Collar Comedy tour" Even with my short little fingers I am easily able to reach the switch on my Glock 17 with both my thumb and trigger finger without having to re-grip.
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/Msokol13/IMG_0384.jpg
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/Msokol13/IMG_0385.jpg



THAT TEDDY BEAR IS CUUUUUUTE!!!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:54:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By THellURider:




In a self defense situation you must be in fear for your life or a loved one's in order to be justified in using lethal force. Those distances are distances that one should have the ability to easily shoot one handed.

Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think

Also, low light training can be difficult to come by, especially light technique (as important as firearms training IMHO) , and shooting a gun while holding the light switch down on a weapon mounted light is more difficult to practice than one handed shooting.

Flashlights are useful things. I like to be able use mine for things other than IDing the intruder. Given a choice, I'd take the handheld, but certainly having BOTH (in true ARFCOM tradition) would be ideal.

Whatever you do, have a lanyard so that you can let go of the light to do mag changes, open doors etc. and the light remains quickly accessible to your weak hand. Additionaly, the lanyard can be used to "roll" a flashlight into a room allowing you to quickly scan the room without exposing yourself.



Much Obliged, and I have learned from your comments.
Learning
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:28:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Waldo0506:

Originally Posted By Msokol13:

Originally Posted By Balisong:

Originally Posted By markm:

Of course I agree that a home defense gun should have a light mounted to it because it should be a LONG GUN.

Hand guns I prefer no light mounted.




I agree completely, and for all the reasons previously mentioned.
I'll also add that I've never handled a light mounted pistol that felt completely natural to me.
Shifting my finger or thumb from the light switch to the trigger always caused a shift in grip.


I'm better off shooting the gun one handed with the light in the other hand.



Depending on which convenient food store I am leaving I'm between 5'7" and 5'10"(Sorry-ripped the saying from the Blue Collar Comedy tour" Even with my short little fingers I am easily able to reach the switch on my Glock 17 with both my thumb and trigger finger without having to re-grip.
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/Msokol13/IMG_0384.jpg
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/Msokol13/IMG_0385.jpg



THAT TEDDY BEAR IS CUUUUUUTE!!!



Not mine....my mom has a sick obsession with them.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:26:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:28:37 PM EDT by WMHM4]

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Generally lights are risky to dumb anyone with a lick of common sense will shoot at the light and you will be behind it.


Lights & Lasers = Bullet magnets



nothing against you but that is the biggest misinformed myth about lights. All you have to do is do a little bit of rersearch about low light shooting and how to properly use a light and you will find out that not only is it completely untrue but you can actually dominate the fight with the light. It's not like you turn the light on and just stand there. Interval light and move.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:44:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:54:13 PM EDT by DasRonin]

Originally Posted By Still-Learning:

Originally Posted By THellURider:




In a self defense situation you must be in fear for your life or a loved one's in order to be justified in using lethal force. Those distances are distances that one should have the ability to easily shoot one handed.

Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think

Also, low light training can be difficult to come by, especially light technique (as important as firearms training IMHO) , and shooting a gun while holding the light switch down on a weapon mounted light is more difficult to practice than one handed shooting.

Flashlights are useful things. I like to be able use mine for things other than IDing the intruder. Given a choice, I'd take the handheld, but certainly having BOTH (in true ARFCOM tradition) would be ideal.

Whatever you do, have a lanyard so that you can let go of the light to do mag changes, open doors etc. and the light remains quickly accessible to your weak hand. Additionaly, the lanyard can be used to "roll" a flashlight into a room allowing you to quickly scan the room without exposing yourself.


Much Obliged, and I have learned from your comments.
Learning



Please explain how you can roll a light with a lanyard into a room. Then... how you can recover it when it ends up rolling where the beam is pointing back at you, without exposing yourself.

Then what you use for a light if you can't safely recover it?

...or what will keep the bad guy from recovering your light if you can't recover it and the BG safely can?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:46:18 PM EDT



Why dont more people use lights on their handguns.


EEEeerm


It's daytime

Taffy
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:06:43 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:07:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 9:41:34 PM EDT by cnatra]
sorry, , work just has dial-up
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:10:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Generally lights are risky to dumb anyone with a lick of common sense will shoot at the light and you will be behind it.


Lights & Lasers = Bullet magnets




Well shit, that changed my mind
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:26:06 PM EDT
Lights may be good for some folk but I just don't feel the need for myself. I also like to keep my defenisive weapons simple and light so as to be easier to manuever and shoot. This would also include weapon balance which a light might alter.
I prefer to point shoot and if necessary hold a flashlight in my off hand.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:31:17 PM EDT
I know this is long but its good. This is from the people I took my ccw training from...


Everytime I watch COPS on TV I flinch. You see some cops running around holding their flashlights like a bunch of idiots. They all look like they are making a movie, were trained and swallowed the nonsense like robots and never questioned how it is done in the real world because what they learn "looks cool." That is the honest real life truth.

We are concerned with cosmetics and trendy instead of staying alive. Officers and security guards wave the flashlight around like a magic wand that will somehow bless then with some un-seeable wisdom and information. NOT!!!!

Let's back up a little to the 1960s. When I got into law enforcement we had cheap easy to break chrome two cell flashlights. They served the purpose well but if you slammed a car door on them or they broke they were rather disposable.

The company, "Kel-Lite" flashlight came about. A strong aluminum flashlight that took a real beating and the four-cell model made an ideal club if you needed it. That soon lead to a pile of legal actions but it started the concept that a flashlight was a "tactical tool." It was no longer a flashlight.

It smashed windows, heads, and doors. It seemed to solve a lot of problems. Other manufacturers came on line and the flashlight was a fashion statement. "Mine is brighter and bigger than yours" was born. Not content with the device just giving us light, it became a complex "system." We had to have more than one and attached them to guns, recharged them and wrote books about how to use the simple flashlight. Let's stop the nonsense.

First of all, it is damned seldom an officer or civilian is walking in an area with out enough light to see. Even inside of buildings, I've watched guards or officers run around with their Hollywood flashlight moves and not bother to reach for a simple light switch. "The crooks will see me." They scream when you turn on the lights. Unless you are hunting for Stevie Wonder they will certainly see YOUR flashlight. If daylight is good, then lights are good. Simple logic unless you want to bore us with some wild way out "one time" or "what if" concept.

Years ago the FBI (the sometimes experts on such things) said you MUST hold the flashlight away from your body as far as you can because the thug will shoot AT the light. That wasn't good enough for the new breed that made the flashlight into a "tool." That was far too easy. They came up to the idea (with help from armchair gun writers with little or NO experience) that you should hold it in one hand and the gun in the other together, sometimes back of hand to back of hand. Man, that looks "cool."

Nobody stopped it then and asked some common sense questions. Will a thug shoot at the light? I would think so if I was trying to avoid capture. It sure is a target of opportunity.

Another fact they ignore is why would you give up ONE hand in the dark and claim you need TWO in the daylight? Also, having BOTH hands full most of the time at night isn't very smart. The flashlight becomes a serious liability. Also most shootings are at such close range, light is seldom an issue.

What is amazing is the armchair types that make up flashlight "stances" named after them. How nice for promotion of books etc. Of course they can't tell you something simple, or you won't buy the book or video. It must be complex and require a lot of effort to make the money spent worth it. Also you sound very knowledgeable when you show someone else this well named knowledge.

One of my favorites is how the flashlight beam will DAZZLE the suspect. Sure it will and the drugs, insanity and booze won't? Also, a thug won't stand still while you wave the flashlight around to find his moving face, and what the hell are you doing trying to shine a light on someone that needs a bullet?

Even using the older FBI system of holding your flashlight extended from your body produces more than enough light to show you as a pretty good target. Light will reflect off walls, ceilings, and even bushes to light you up pretty good.

The whole thing smells from the start. If you go walking around in the dark you soon learn that when your eyes adjust you can see where you are going and do some pretty good searching on your own without any light. The flashlight can become a pacifier.

Many departments have changed to very small lights and officers find them much lighter to carry and almost as effective in normal circumstances.

I've reviewed a few dozen shootings where a flashlight was present in the officer's hands. In EVERY case the light hits the ground. When afraid or think you will die, the flashlight is a gone issue. A major New York City study in the late 1980's that officers did use the flashlights for searches, but the minute trouble surface the lights were on the floor or street. Other studies have shown the same results. They are only applied until trouble arrives and the flashlight may speed up that process.

We urge students to use BOTH hands to shoot and/or defend them and to bring out a flashlight ONLY when everything is under control. We also show a TWO person approach where one can stand at a distance (distance is a lifesaver) and use the light of ONE flashlight and the other officer or person uses a two handhold on their gun etc. A flashlight is a serious liability in the dark. I've even seen officers with their flashlights in their hands in daytime hours. Again, it is not a magic wand.

When possible use car lighting, or available lights. It is amazing how many building searches take place and nobody bothered to flick a light switch on.

We've tried to catch on a real video where an officer held onto a flashlight in a shooting situation and so far we don't have one. With hundreds of actual videos of shootings it is obvious such an event is rare to non-existent.

Instead of trying to make a fashion statement, look at your flashlight as having a place of course, but let common sense prevail and examine your use of it. If it just makes you FEEL better, or you want to look efficient, trained, professional and "cool" you are on the wrong track. Your life is not a fashion statement.

We have compared flashlight shooting vs no flashlight shooting in low light and darkness and the gain of accuracy and control of the gun without the flashlight is a no contest winner EVERYTIME.

In fact, in practice when we apply a little stress they forget to turn on the flashlight or forget to use it, or drop it on the floor. Trying to concentrate on a flashlight AND a gun at the same time is not easy even with no stress present.

The vast majority of the time you will know damn well if you are in danger, and the range will be so close a flashlight will have little application or advantage. You don't need an electronic security blanket or something to keep your hands busy.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:40:32 PM EDT
Very informative. BUT! With a light mounted a your weapon it is still there SHOULD you need it....and that wont require you two take your two-handed grip away.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:46:31 PM EDT
Not that my opinion is worth squat but for my $.02, I believe you should have at least one (either hand held or weapon mounted). At least one is mandatory and either will work. Both have advantages\disadvantages so the best answer is both.


Originally Posted By THellURider:
Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think



I would have to completely disagree with this statement. I believe holding a flashlight at arms length makes you an easier target. Why? Stand in a dark room and have someone stand across the room from you and point a bright flash light at you at arms length. "natural instinct" dictates that you will focus away from the blinding light but you will still look in the general vicinity of the source. Even modern combat lights with their focused beams still have enough spill light to completely illuminate the person holding it at arms length.

To verify this, I just did this experiment with my wife. In a completely dark room with her no more then 10-12' away pointing a Surefire E2E at arms length directly at me, my eyes had no problem avoiding the direct light and easily seeing her. I had no problem not only seeing her, but what she was wearing, hair color, you name it. Shooting her would have been no problem at all. It also brought up another issue. With her holding the light right in front of her, not only was it much harder for me to "see" her but she also had a much easier time shining the light right into my face. Holding, the light at arms length, she had a harder time keeping it pointed at my face.

Now the flip side, you state it is "natural instinct" to shoot at the light. Have you ever tried to aim your weapon in the dark while somebody was aiming a 60+ lumen light directly into your eyes? Easier said then done.

Just my $.02
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:13:31 PM EDT
Does a hanggun light make it offballenced and heavyer? Just curious.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:13:53 PM EDT

Very informative. BUT! With a light mounted a your weapon it is still there SHOULD you need it....and that wont require you two take your two-handed grip away.


Its hard to disagree but the flashlight should be a backup if the light switch isn't handy.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:26:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 6:55:55 PM EDT by JasonBurton]
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:00:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 7:04:13 PM EDT by Msokol13]
I just want to clarify a few things.

My intentions on making this thread was to stir up the arm-chair commandoes and see what was left when the dust settled.

My basic argument is that a light mounted on the weapon can only be a plus. I think some people are thinking that I will be roaming around the house with the light ON. This is honestly not the case, my plan of attack if you want to call it that would be to silently move around the house to determine what exactly it was that went "Bump in the Night".

After finding the thing/person the light would be flicked on "momentarily" to determine what the threat is. (if a threat at all)

Then, if needed I would silence the threat.

Simply put this sounds a lot better than having your free hand filled with a detached light or having no light at all to clearly determine what the threat is.

Cheers.

P.S. I should mention that I DO shoot one handed/weak handed. This is the reason I use my GLock 17 more than my 21/22/26/19. I am simply able to control the full size 9mm more than my other glocks.

I am sure everyone will agree that they are more accurate using both hands as opposed to one.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:40:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 8:45:58 PM EDT by THellURider]

Originally Posted By DasRonin:

Originally Posted By Still-Learning:

Originally Posted By THellURider:




In a self defense situation you must be in fear for your life or a loved one's in order to be justified in using lethal force. Those distances are distances that one should have the ability to easily shoot one handed.

Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think

Also, low light training can be difficult to come by, especially light technique (as important as firearms training IMHO) , and shooting a gun while holding the light switch down on a weapon mounted light is more difficult to practice than one handed shooting.

Flashlights are useful things. I like to be able use mine for things other than IDing the intruder. Given a choice, I'd take the handheld, but certainly having BOTH (in true ARFCOM tradition) would be ideal.

Whatever you do, have a lanyard so that you can let go of the light to do mag changes, open doors etc. and the light remains quickly accessible to your weak hand. Additionaly, the lanyard can be used to "roll" a flashlight into a room allowing you to quickly scan the room without exposing yourself.


Much Obliged, and I have learned from your comments.
Learning



Please explain how you can roll a light with a lanyard into a room. Then... how you can recover it when it ends up rolling where the beam is pointing back at you, without exposing yourself.

Then what you use for a light if you can't safely recover it?

...or what will keep the bad guy from recovering your light if you can't recover it and the BG safely can?



That's why you hold onto the lanyard. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. If you go practice this and apply the fundamental idea, you'll understand. I'm not saying it's the best, but it is a possibility.

Take a class that teaches low light/flashlight technique; there are all kinds of ideas out there. Some may work for you, some may not; that is why you take as many classes from as many different people as possible so that YOU may make the decision about which ideas/techniques work best for YOU.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:43:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 9:05:08 PM EDT by THellURider]

Originally Posted By cgv69:
Not that my opinion is worth squat but for my $.02, I believe you should have at least one (either hand held or weapon mounted). At least one is mandatory and either will work. Both have advantages\disadvantages so the best answer is both. AGREED. Two is one, one is none.


Originally Posted By THellURider:
Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think



I would have to completely disagree with this statement. I believe holding a flashlight at arms length makes you an easier target. Why? Stand in a dark room and have someone stand across the room from you and point a bright flash light at you at arms length. "natural instinct" dictates that you will focus away from the blinding light but you will still look in the general vicinity of the source. Even modern combat lights with their focused beams still have enough spill light to completely illuminate the person holding it at arms length.

To verify this, I just did this experiment with my wife. In a completely dark room with her no more then 10-12' away pointing a Surefire E2E at arms length directly at me, my eyes had no problem avoiding the direct light and easily seeing her. I had no problem not only seeing her, but what she was wearing, hair color, you name it. Shooting her would have been no problem at all. It also brought up another issue. With her holding the light right in front of her, not only was it much harder for me to "see" her but she also had a much easier time shining the light right into my face. Holding, the light at arms length, she had a harder time keeping it pointed at my face.

Now the flip side, you state it is "natural instinct" to shoot at the light. Have you ever tried to aim your weapon in the dark while somebody was aiming a 60+ lumen light directly into your eyes? Easier said then done.

Just my $.02



Well, I can say from experience it doesn't quite work that way. For example, if you're using cover, you can kneel and barely expose yourself from cover while, at the same time, hold the light high and above you, or out further past the corner (or whatever). It only adds to your ability to confuse and slow your assailant which is not a bad thing.

It is not the end all be all, but simply another tool in your "toolbox". Fair?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:49:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 8:50:17 PM EDT by THellURider]

Originally Posted By ICEAGE:
Does a hanggun light make it offballenced and heavyer? Just curious.



Not particularly as most handgun mounted lights aren't very heavy except for the larger Surefire models. They can, however, reduce muzzle flip.

Of course, this is a personal thing and some here might disagree with me.
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