Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 12/27/2005 7:36:41 PM EDT
I was at the Issac Walton League range in Poolesville Maryland on monday and among some of the usual weaponry there was the ubiquitous 40 cal glock. It wasnt halfway into the second string of rapid fire that the chamber on this weapon split from the barrel and broke in half, jamming the upper half of the chamber up thru the ejection port, also the slide was blown off the frame. The explosion that caused all this had ripped the polymer frame rails completely off. After quickly ejecting the mag the weapon was immediatly dropped by the shooter who's hand was by now swollen and red, and no doubt very stiff and sore. The guy was extremely lucky that he didnt loose his fingers or hand completely. I feel secure in the strength of a fully supported chamber like the one on the SIG P226 that i was using at the time. BTW, for scrutiny's sake this was simple 40 cal FMJ range ammo, not sure of the brand, and the firearm was a Glock 22, near as i could tell from the shot (i was 4 shooters to the right of this guy) it sounded like a double powder load or something, giving him the benifit of the doubt. Needless to say im not a fan of Glocks but respect their reputation. That said, I have never seen or heard of a Sig going Kabooom.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:38:50 PM EDT
A glock kabooms?

In other news, water is wet.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:41:32 PM EDT
Well the last thing im trying to do here is start a fight, but ill be damned if i hadnt heard horror stories about it. Just never seen it happen before.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:45:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
Well the last thing im trying to do here is start a fight, but ill be damned if i hadnt heard horror stories about it. Just never seen it happen before.



I know, you arent trying to start anything.

I, for one, think it is hilarious every time a glock goes kaboom (as long as no one was hurt).
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:45:57 PM EDT
Pics?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:52:33 PM EDT
Sorry, no pics. The range has an official "no cameras" rule, however i usualy sneak my camera phone in. But i left it in the truck this time. Something told me i would want it as i was walking down to the range.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:50:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
A glock kabooms?

In other news, water is wet.




Any gun going Kaboom... with a possible double charge? Must be ONLY those shitty Glocks.

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:16:34 AM EDT
Certainly doesnt sound like the typical 6 o'clock glock Kboom. Definitely something more serious there.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:57:48 AM EDT
Why does Glock refuse to fix their unsupported chamber? You never hear of SIG having this KB problem. You would think Glock would get a clue. Even if it was over powered ammo a fully supported chamber would have helped greatly and there is no arguing that.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:10:53 AM EDT
If the range makes you buy their ammo to use, that would be my first and only suspect, as they are most likely reloads.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 3:34:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chewbacca:

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
A glock kabooms?

In other news, water is wet.




Any gun going Kaboom... with a possible double charge? Must be ONLY those shitty Glocks.






At least someone took the glock flamebait.

60% of the time, it works all the time
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:23:51 AM EDT
I am impressed how well some people can pinpoint the problem to the gun without examining gun and ammo!

Those unsupported chambers are devilish and the cause of all problems.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:43:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
Well the last thing im trying to do here is start a fight, but ill be damned if i hadnt heard horror stories about it. Just never seen it happen before.



I know, you arent trying to start anything.

I, for one, think it is hilarious every time a glock goes kaboom (as long as no one was hurt).



Well, at least he didn't shoot himself in the ass-cheek while practicing his quick draw!
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:26:37 AM EDT
yeah dont know if i mentioned this before but when i said range ammo i meant something like winchester target, this range does not sell ammo. secondly i firmly belive that a fully supported chamber would have greatly helped in this situation, and thirdly all of the automatic handguns pictured in the all guns go kabooom post were polymer framed and thusly suffered massive frame failure and im sure caused some hand injuries. the absolute most i have ever heard of a sig or any other metal framed handgun suffering is a cracked slide, notice, the hand stays intact lol. GLOCK REALLY SHOULD FIX THE CHAMBER ISSUES, lol then we may not have much arguement with those guys......
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:55:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 7:56:53 AM EDT by Researcher]

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
I feel secure in the strength of a fully supported chamber like the one on the SIG P226 that i was using at the time. That said, I have never seen or heard of a Sig going Kabooom.



I was unaware that sigs had fully supported chambers.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:00:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:37:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 9:44:09 AM EDT by Msokol13]

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
all of the automatic handguns pictured in the all guns go kabooom post were polymer framed and thusly suffered massive frame failure ....




Never seen a 1911 kaboom? Stick around the website...you may actually learn something.
CLICK ME!! TO SEE MASSIVE FRAME FAILURE ON 1911
OH NO!!! IT CANT BE!
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:36:00 AM EDT
All guns can have a KaBoom....Murphy's law. But no one can argue that Glock does not have many many more then all other brands. The ammount of Glocks that KB is unexceptable.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:40:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 10:48:13 AM EDT by Dusty_C]

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
I was at the Issac Walton League range in Poolesville Maryland on monday and among some of the usual weaponry there was the ubiquitous 40 cal glock. It wasnt halfway into the second string of rapid fire that the chamber on this weapon split from the barrel and broke in half, jamming the upper half of the chamber up thru the ejection port, also the slide was blown off the frame. The explosion that caused all this had ripped the polymer frame rails completely off. After quickly ejecting the mag the weapon was immediatly dropped by the shooter who's hand was by now swollen and red, and no doubt very stiff and sore. The guy was extremely lucky that he didnt loose his fingers or hand completely. I feel secure in the strength of a fully supported chamber like the one on the SIG P226 that i was using at the time. BTW, for scrutiny's sake this was simple 40 cal FMJ range ammo, not sure of the brand, and the firearm was a Glock 22, near as i could tell from the shot (i was 4 shooters to the right of this guy) it sounded like a double powder load or something, giving him the benifit of the doubt. Needless to say im not a fan of Glocks but respect their reputation. That said, I have never seen or heard of a Sig going Kabooom.

Almost any gun can do it under those conditions.



Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
All guns can have a KaBoom....Murphy's law. But no one can argue that Glock does not have many many more then all other brands. The ammount of Glocks that KB is unexceptable.



Same thing as with pitbulls, Since there are so many more out there than other guns it will happen more, just not proportionatly more. The problem with glocks is that they are so damned simple, lots of simpletons use them. One of the few reloading rules I know. You NEVER reload brass fired once from a weapon without a fully supported chamber. Ranges do. It's NOT the guns fault idiots don't follow rules. Just the same way its not the guns fault when someone shoots someone. And as far as unsupported chambers go, I've been around IDPA, and IPSC a while now and never seen a glock FTE. All 3 handguns I've used in competition that had fully supported chambers her to be cleaned after every stage or the dirty would cause the brass to stick, It is part of the reliability. Jesus, if you people know soooooo much about how to make Glocks better, go fucking work for Gaston. Otherwise your being armchair quarterbacks that haven't designed and built on of the most recognized pistols in the world and talking like you have.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:45:51 AM EDT
Those damned Glocks. Here's a pic of a G-19 that Kaboomed.


Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:04:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:08:49 PM EDT by akethan]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
I was at the Issac Walton League range in Poolesville Maryland on monday and among some of the usual weaponry there was the ubiquitous 40 cal glock. It wasnt halfway into the second string of rapid fire that the chamber on this weapon split from the barrel and broke in half, jamming the upper half of the chamber up thru the ejection port, also the slide was blown off the frame. The explosion that caused all this had ripped the polymer frame rails completely off. After quickly ejecting the mag the weapon was immediatly dropped by the shooter who's hand was by now swollen and red, and no doubt very stiff and sore. The guy was extremely lucky that he didnt loose his fingers or hand completely. I feel secure in the strength of a fully supported chamber like the one on the SIG P226 that i was using at the time. BTW, for scrutiny's sake this was simple 40 cal FMJ range ammo, not sure of the brand, and the firearm was a Glock 22, near as i could tell from the shot (i was 4 shooters to the right of this guy) it sounded like a double powder load or something, giving him the benifit of the doubt. Needless to say im not a fan of Glocks but respect their reputation. That said, I have never seen or heard of a Sig going Kabooom.


This was posted in your other thread I guess no one is safe.

Noner
Team Member
Just the New Guy

Joined :: October 2003
Post Number :: 1255

WA, USA

User Info IM User Email User Reply Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a P226 go KABOOM with some Federal Ammo. (Federal sent me a few boxes for free but didnt replace any broken parts on the sig)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come Check out the NEW AR15 PISTOL FORUM!!
Just Click --->AR-15 Tab --->AR Pistols Tab (its that easy!)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted :: 12/29/2005 3:43:06 PM EST




I KB'ed an HK Tactical. Bullet was pushed into case too far when it was loaded in the chamber.

I now carry a G20 in 10mm.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:10:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
That said, I have never seen or heard of a Sig going Kabooom.



Let's assume that it was a double charge either by the factory or a reloader. What do you think that same round would have done in a Sig?? Nothing? Think again.

Glocks dont cause KB's any more than trailer parks cause tornadoes.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:17:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BrianNH:

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
That said, I have never seen or heard of a Sig going Kabooom.



Let's assume that it was a double charge either by the factory or a reloader. What do you think that same round would have done in a Sig?? Nothing? Think again.

Glocks dont cause KB's any more than trailer parks cause tornadoes.



Ha!

OR "Guns dont kill people, husband's who come home from work early and find their wife in bed with another man kill people".
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:27:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
I KB'ed an HK Tactical. Bullet was pushed into case too far when it was loaded in the chamber.

I now carry a G20 in 10mm.



Looking for a BIGGER kB?
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:46:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:09:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 2:11:49 PM EDT by BettysNephew]
Well folks, under the right circumstances, ANY gun (rifle,pistol or shotgun) can KB. I have seen pix on several internet pistol sites of 1911's, Glocks and even HK's that have let loose. They can all do it if the conditions are just right. I'm sure if someone digs far enough they will even find an instance of a SIG taking a dump. A relatively small sliver of metal from a bullet or case at the end of the chamber and holding the cartridge back just a bit and a small ammount of wear or manufacturing tolerance in the trigger/slide mechanism to allow the hammer to drop while not in full battery looks very much like an unsupported chamber to me and a possible KB no matter who's double throw down tougher than nails gun it is. The bottom line is that guns are highly stressed machines and even lightly stressed machines fail. Not trying to defend Glock or deride any one else, just making the point that nothing made by man is perfect (I'm sure the JMB 1911 fans will chime in here [and yes I too own one of those]) and will fail at some point in time. Unfortunately sometimes the failure is catastrophic. Best always.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 3:42:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 3:45:55 PM EDT by KillAgain]
Let's not jump to conclusions, I'm sure it's just another iscolated incident.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:45:02 PM EDT
What a bulshit post, people with agendas suck.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:08:46 PM EDT
I own a SIG 226, in 9mm, that I purchased upon completion of the early 1980's JSSAP pistol trials. As a participant in these trials I determined that the SIG was superior to all other designs regardless of cost. The Beretta 92 won because it was the lowest bidder, not the best performer.

Anyway, I still own that SIG. I have fired maybe 40,000 rounds or so through in 20+ years. One of these rounds had a TOTAL case head separation upon ignition. The extractor bent into a 90 degree angle. There was no other damage to me or the pistol. I removed the extractor, pounded it back to an angle that approximated the original angle, replaced it and then I continued to fire the pistol. It ran flawlessly. There was no permamnent damage to the pistol or personal injury to me.

When I got home I replaced the extractor, a couple of breech block roll pins and the recoil spring. I just shot the pistol over the Xmas vacation. No problems of any type. I have seen Glocks of different calibers blow up and hurt people. I prefer metal framed pistols such as SIG's and 1911's.

Charles the Gunsmith.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:16:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 5:16:56 PM EDT by txgp17]
If you shoot it enough, anything will KB sooner or later. The unsupported chamber is the only thing about my GLOCK's that I don't like, especially since I'm a handloader.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:52:00 PM EDT
This thread is WORTHLESS without pics...
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:57:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Citat3962:
This thread is WORTHLESS without pics...













Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:21:15 PM EDT
My USP Tactical had a KB. It was my fault, not the guns. I picked up a bag of brass from a gun show. Out of 500 cases, only 3 were S&B. The first of the 3 blew out at most likely 6 to 9 Oclock from just a pure a simple weak/damaged case. The primer did not blow out or flatten. The gun cycled on a empty chamber after dropping the internals of the mag (follower, baseplate, ammo), but the body of the mag stayed in the gun. The only damage to the gun was the polymer frame blew out a dime sized chunk just to the right and below the chamber and just above my hand. I felt the heat of the KB and hot gasses, but was not hurt or burned. HK inspected the gun, put a new polymer frame on it, and shipped it back to me with all other original parts reinstalled for $130

I no longer reload S&B cases and THOROUGHLY check my cases before and after reloading

In my opinion, you hear so much about Glocks KB'ing cause there are soo many of them and sooo many of them are .40 cal, which is a hot loading to start with. I would expect .40, 10mm, and .357 sig to be the most likely to KB over 9mm and .45.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:12:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KillAgain:
Let's not jump to conclusions, I'm sure it's just another iscolated incident.



Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:14:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
My USP Tactical had a KB. It was my fault, not the guns. I picked up a bag of brass from a gun show. Out of 500 cases, only 3 were S&B. The first of the 3 blew out at most likely 6 to 9 Oclock from just a pure a simple weak/damaged case. The primer did not blow out or flatten. The gun cycled on a empty chamber after dropping the internals of the mag (follower, baseplate, ammo), but the body of the mag stayed in the gun. The only damage to the gun was the polymer frame blew out a dime sized chunk just to the right and below the chamber and just above my hand. I felt the heat of the KB and hot gasses, but was not hurt or burned. HK inspected the gun, put a new polymer frame on it, and shipped it back to me with all other original parts reinstalled for $130

I no longer reload S&B cases and THOROUGHLY check my cases before and after reloading

In my opinion, you hear so much about Glocks KB'ing cause there are soo many of them and sooo many of them are .40 cal, which is a hot loading to start with. I would expect .40, 10mm, and .357 sig to be the most likely to KB over 9mm and .45.




+1
I get tired of the all the Glock KB posts. So friggin what. A glock KB'd. I'm pretty sure that every other make/model of gun has had at least on KB in it's history (with the caveat that it has been around as long as glocks have been).

As long as you have people and machines working together, you will have failures. Machines will fail eventually, and people are fallable. Add the two together and you have..........well, you know the answer to this.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:45:17 PM EDT
And people ask me why I havent bought a glock yet.......................
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:49:50 PM EDT
EeGads! I guess I better go sell all my Glocks before they all KB and the sky starts fallilng!
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:56:37 PM EDT
Guys a moooooron. Double fed a charge while reloading. Just for the record In my IDPA leauge I saw a KIMBER do the same damn thing.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:19:31 PM EDT
I really have to RESTATE that my intention WAS NOT TO CAUSE A FIGHT OR RIP ON GLOCKS, i am aware of their reputation, and that they have a ton in circulation, i just wanted to state what i saw. BTW those pics posted of the glock failure are very similar to what i saw. Im sorry if i prefer a weapon with a fully supported chamber and metal frame, to each his own, and yes everything can and does go kaboom, i know this. If you think im deluded for beliving that im at least in some small way safer with a fully supported chamber, and metal frame, thats fine, i like my sig, some like their glocks, some like their 1911s, hell, some even like their tokerevs. I really have no agenda at all, just saying what i saw.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:25:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By Citat3962:
This thread is WORTHLESS without pics...





does not qualify as a kaboom but rather a dipshit that broke the gun
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:40:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 11:41:40 PM EDT by 7KOPPER]
Excuse my ignorance, does Glock compensate the owners for KB's?
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:44:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Excuse my ignorance, does Glock compensate the owners for KB's?




NO
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:33:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By Citat3962:
This thread is WORTHLESS without pics...



img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/kb1.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/g21-amerammo.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/glock21-kb.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/22kb.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/afr0xx-4.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/broken-glock17.jpg



What ammo is that for the Glock 21????? The .40 Glock has an aftermarket barrel. Amerc is lousy ammo and an aftermarket barrel failure does not really prove a lot.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:45:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
Im sorry if i prefer a weapon with a fully supported chamber and metal frame, to each his own, and yes everything can and does go kaboom, i know this. If you think im deluded for beliving that im at least in some small way safer with a fully supported chamber, and metal frame, thats fine, i like my sig, some like their glocks, some like their 1911s, hell, some even like their tokerevs.



Once again, I was unaware Sigs had fully supported chambers. I would like to see this gun.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:48:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 5:49:23 AM EDT by jdessell]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Excuse my ignorance, does Glock compensate the owners for KB's?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NO


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So even if it is proven that the ammunition being fired when the gun KB'd was factory ammo, and in no other way did the owner violate Glocks waranty ; Glock will not compensate the owner(replace gun at least)? Thats not very good business practices. I think I would talk to a lawyer. If all the people who had this happen to them got together , something like this could snowball into a class-action suit.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:47:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 6:50:36 AM EDT by chewbacca]

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By Citat3962:
This thread is WORTHLESS without pics...



img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/kb1.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/g21-amerammo.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/glock21-kb.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/22kb.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/afr0xx-4.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/broken-glock17.jpg




Those are the same 3 pics that you and others post all over the place.


Pic 1: Bad Ammo. That pic comes from a site where they show many guns that KB'ed using this ammo.

Pic 2: That is not even a factory Glock barrel. Notice that it is stainless? The "unsupported chamber" rhetoric does not work there.

Pic 3: That also cannot be a pic of a KB due to the unsupported chamber.


Frankly seeing the same old crap you post is getting old; the picture of the Glock box in the trash...that is pretty hilarious, especially seeing it 1000 times.


Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:08:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Why does Glock refuse to fix their unsupported chamber? You never hear of SIG having this KB problem. You would think Glock would get a clue. Even if it was over powered ammo a fully supported chamber would have helped greatly and there is no arguing that.



A KKM barrel swaps right in and gives you the peace of mind of that supported chamber. I wouldn't shoot a .40 without it. However, when I bought the KKM for my Glock 22, I went with the .357 Sig. Since I reload, I know that there are some defective .40 cases around somewhere that will split. I wouldn't want to find one.

By "range rounds" do you mean cheap range reloads?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:52:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Excuse my ignorance, does Glock compensate the owners for KB's?




NO



Because it's usually the owner's fault when there is a KB. KB's are usually caused by handloads, esp lead handloads, IIRC, and shitty factory ammo that was incorrectly loaded (squib loads, double-charges, etc) will do it. What a gun owner feeds their pistol is up to them, not up to Glock. It's just like if you eat some bad Chinese food and you get sick, is it your parents' fault ? Blame the Chinese place for not following food safety regulations. Blame the ammo companies for loading and selling ammo that is unsafe, hell...blame yourself if you're the one who handloaded the round that KBed on you. Or, of course, blame yourself for buying poor ammo in the first place.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:54:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jdessell:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Excuse my ignorance, does Glock compensate the owners for KB's?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NO


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So even if it is proven that the ammunition being fired when the gun KB'd was factory ammo, and in no other way did the owner violate Glocks waranty ; Glock will not compensate the owner(replace gun at least)? Thats not very good business practices. I think I would talk to a lawyer. If all the people who had this happen to them got together , something like this could snowball into a class-action suit.



The issue here is in proving what caused the KB, poor weapon design or poor ammunition ?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:12:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Excuse my ignorance, does Glock compensate the owners for KB's?




NO



Because it's usually the owner's fault when there is a KB. KB's are usually caused by handloads, esp lead handloads, IIRC, and shitty factory ammo that was incorrectly loaded (squib loads, double-charges, etc) will do it. What a gun owner feeds their pistol is up to them, not up to Glock. It's just like if you eat some bad Chinese food and you get sick, is it your parents' fault ? Blame the Chinese place for not following food safety regulations. Blame the ammo companies for loading and selling ammo that is unsafe, hell...blame yourself if you're the one who handloaded the round that KBed on you. Or, of course, blame yourself for buying poor ammo in the first place.



In my case I guess those factory Winchester Silvertips were defective enough to destroy a NIB gun in 52 rounds.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:40:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MADM16A1:
What a bulshit post, people with agendas suck.



+1!!

This peckerhead started the same thread over in the SIG forum.

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top