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Posted: 12/13/2005 6:44:40 PM EDT
Ok guys, I'm looking for "THE" handgun. I want a serious gun for serious purposes - I'm talking about home defense. I want a handgun to keep by the bed for the things that go bump in the night and various BGs. Think anything from a solitary burglar to a serious home invasion with multiple attackers. My criteria:

1) Serious caliber. 45ACP or 10mm. I work in an ER and have seen the difference between 45ACP and 9mm - no contest. 40cal need not apply.

2) High capacity. No single-stack 1911s. I have one and love it, but want more fuel in the tank if I need it.

3) Reliable. I have fun guns and range toys, but this one needs to go bang always.

I have looked at the HK USP 45 and the Glock 20 in 10mm. If I have mised something, let me know. Convince me.

Give me your recs. I am an experienced shooter, and recoil doesn't scare me. Cost is not really an object, since I don't plan on buying a replacement for this one. Also, what else do I need to make this handgun optimal - lights, lasers, mag extensions, recoil springs, etc. You name it.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:52:47 PM EDT
Glock 21

.45 is more common than 10mm, cheaper. 13+1, cheaper than a USP

It will be my next fullsize pistol, after I replace my current carry piece with a 30
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:53:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:54:11 PM EDT by aaronrb204]
check the cz97b. i haven't fired one but i like my 75 a lot. i don't think they make it with a rail though.

also check the paras--p14-45. its big. 14+1 and 1911 style.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:53:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:54:30 PM EDT by niceguymr]
Glock 21 w/rail mounted light
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:58:42 PM EDT
HK 45
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:02:24 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em coming. I see a lot of votes for the Glock platform. Interesting, as I thought the HK would be more favored in the 45ACP.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:06:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Glock 21 w/rail mounted light



+1 you don't need anything else
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:09:42 PM EDT
Glock 21 or 20

HK USP/Tactical (if you have the funds)

thats about it
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:20:24 PM EDT
XD-40 Tactical........12 rounds will knock down any bad guy, even if it is a .40.



Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:27:32 PM EDT
XD will be making a 45 soon. I would LOVE an xd in 45
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:29:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imq707s:
XD-40 Tactical........12 rounds will knock down any bad guy, even if it is a .40.



www.springfield-armory.com/images/xd-pistol/XD9402Large.jpg



But that's a 9mm

I've shot a USP 45 and it was a sweet ass pistol, it gets my vote.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:30:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imq707s:

XD-40 Tactical........12 rounds will knock down any bad guy, even if it is a .40.



I guess you missed this critical line...


Originally Posted By El_Guapo:

40cal need not apply.



A Glock 21 and a handheld light is what you seek. Mine is very accurate and very reliable.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:30:26 PM EDT
CZ-97 vote here.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:32:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
Glock 21 or 20

HK USP/Tactical (if you have the funds)

thats about it


+1
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:37:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
40cal need not apply.


Originally Posted By imq707s:
XD-40 Tactical



El_Guapo,
You've already narrowed it down to two of the three best platforms. Flip a coin and enjoy.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:39:44 PM EDT
Vinh - I think you have it summed up well. I don't think I could go wrong with either. I just wanted to see if there was some compelling reason to pick the Glock 20 over the HK USP. Although I think I will take a second look at the Glock 21.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:56:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 11:16:15 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Vinh - I think you have it summed up well. I don't think I could go wrong with either. I just wanted to see if there was some compelling reason to pick the Glock 20 over the HK USP. Although I think I will take a second look at the Glock 21.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.



if you get a 10mm, G20 is about the best choice there is
only problem is ammo--kinda hard sometimes to get decent ammo; my local wally world does not carry it for my G29(dont get the G29, get the G20)

if you decide .45acp: well the Glock 21 offers a lot of advantages: same trigger pull; CHEAP and AVAILABLE hi-cap mags (~$15); simplicity; built in rail; parts are easier to get
dislikes: grip--i hate the wideness of the grip as well as the lower end hump; trigger--although consistant, its annoying after a long shoot

USP: DA/SA (mine is)--DA is not the best, but SA is nice; 1911 controls; grip--love it (slimmer and not as wide as the G21/G20)
dislikes: bore axis is lower than it should be; safety lever is not as smooth as a 1911; hi-cap mags are a PITA to get for less than $50 if at all; accessories are a little less available; parts are less available as well as being expensive
they say that the Tactical has a better trigger, will find that out soon enough.....

if you want a .45acp double stack pistol that will offer you the best bang for the $$$s, get the G21
if you got the money to spare or if you want a manual safety, get the HK USP/Tactical

i know you said that $$$$$s is not an option, but it will when you end up getting ALL (G20, G30, G21, HK USP, HK Tactical)of em+ mags and lots of ammo, tac lights, and good holsters
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:01:30 PM EDT
Remington 870 w/ 18" barrel
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:49:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 4:51:39 AM EDT by jdessell]
Remington 870 w/ 18" barrel



You forgot to add: And a hell of alot cheaper than a USP or Glock 21.

ETA: If you're set on a handgun you really cant go wrong with either of the 2 above, or a Sig 220.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:43:48 AM EDT

As a big fan of the 1911 platform (ergonomics and .45ACP), I would say the Glock 21 fulfills all your requirements.

Also (if you haven't seen this already) here is a link to an informal test of the Glock 21 by an ARFCOM member.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=13658

also need to kick over my post count
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:03:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Ok guys, I'm looking for "THE" handgun. I want a serious gun for serious purposes - I'm talking about home defense. I want a handgun to keep by the bed for the things that go bump in the night and various BGs. Think anything from a solitary burglar to a serious home invasion with multiple attackers. My criteria:

1) Serious caliber. 45ACP or 10mm. I work in an ER and have seen the difference between 45ACP and 9mm - no contest. 40cal need not apply.

2) High capacity. No single-stack 1911s. I have one and love it, but want more fuel in the tank if I need it.

3) Reliable. I have fun guns and range toys, but this one needs to go bang always.

I have looked at the HK USP 45 and the Glock 20 in 10mm. If I have mised something, let me know. Convince me.

Give me your recs. I am an experienced shooter, and recoil doesn't scare me. Cost is not really an object, since I don't plan on buying a replacement for this one. Also, what else do I need to make this handgun optimal - lights, lasers, mag extensions, recoil springs, etc. You name it.

Thanks!


El_Guapo,

I know that this is off the topic, but just out of curiosity can you give some differences in the .45 vs. 9mm that you have seen. Just wondering about type of wounds from various rounds (ball or hollow point); wouldn’t a good expanding 9mm round have some devastating effects? How about shot placement (heart, lungs, and arteries) that you have firsthand experience with. This would be interesting coming from someone that has seen it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:21:45 AM EDT
Glock 21, box-stock except for tritium sights. I prefer Heinie straight eight.

If you want something more concealable, then a G30.

Surefire X200B with DevGru switch

Bladetech holster for pistol with mounted light

Bladetech mag pouch (single? double? you decide)

How big are your hands? The G21/20 frame might be too big. Shoot one and how it feels. If you don't like it, then HK USP might be the way to go.

I love 10mm, but would avoid it as more ammo can be hard to come by in a Katrina-type situation. Same argument reference .45 GAP.

<­BR>
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:27:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfFox:

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:

<snip>

1) Serious caliber. 45ACP or 10mm. I work in an ER and have seen the difference between 45ACP and 9mm - no contest. 40cal need not apply.

<snip>

Thanks!


El_Guapo,

I know that this is off the topic, but just out of curiosity can you give some differences in the .45 vs. 9mm that you have seen. Just wondering about type of wounds from various rounds (ball or hollow point); wouldn’t a good expanding 9mm round have some devastating effects? How about shot placement (heart, lungs, and arteries) that you have firsthand experience with. This would be interesting coming from someone that has seen it.



+1
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:34:18 AM EDT
Remington 870 - great choice, have one. My advice to anyone using a shotgun - use buckshot. I don't know how many chest xrays I have seen with incidental birdshot scattered throughout.

About the HK USP - I really like to DA/SA. I think a SA trigger is MUCH better. I have never held one, so I don't know how the grip feels in my hand and how the gun points. Other than that, I think it has all the features I am looking for.

Glocks - Reliability is such a strong point here. As I mentioned, I want a handgun that I can trust the lives of me and my family upon. That being said, the grip ergonomics suck. However, should I get the Glock, I plan on practicing my ass off.

WolfFox - I am no ballistics or wound expert. All I have is my subjective experience working in the ER. There are too many confounding variables to take my word as any kind of expert testimony. However, I have seen a lot of people shot. Working in the Jackson, MS University ER, I saw many "gangbanger" types shot up with 9mm bullets. Most survived, in fact, most walked out of the ER under their own power. Those that died were almost always head wounds. Shot placement seemed to make the difference. The wounds I have seen inflicted by larger calibers were just more, well, devastating. Several cases come to mind:

An elderly gentleman tried to commit suicide with a 380 handgun. He shot himself point-blank in the head. The bullet entered the scalp, bounced off the skull, and exited the scalp. It did knock him out and give him a small SAH, but failed to even crack the skull. Makes me think twice about my KelTec P3AT.

A young man accidentaly shot himself in the knee with a 45ACP with a JHP. Small entrance wound, no exit wound. The xray told the tale - the tibial plateau was shattered. The bullet entered medially, turned down through the tibia, exited the other side. Synovial fluid gurgled out of the open joint. This man will never walk the same again. In addition, he was in no shape to fight or flight after this horrible injury.

One case of a high power rifle to the knee. The leg was basically amputated at the knee joint. I couldn't cover the exit woung with my hand.

Many, many cases of multiple 9mm wounds to the chest, abdomen, and extremities, with the participant arriving to the ER angry and combative. Several hours of surgery later, the 'banger was all patched up, and out of the hospital in a few days.

Shot placement is the most important factor. That being equal, a larger caliber is better. Also, from my experience, a larger caliber to a non-vital (not head or heart) area, can still produce a devastating enough wound to remove a participant from the fight. This has not been my observation with the 9mm.

Just my observations.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:10:13 AM EDT
AR Pistol.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:40:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:

<snip>

WolfFox - I am no ballistics or wound expert. All I have is my subjective experience working in the ER. There are too many confounding variables to take my word as any kind of expert testimony. However, I have seen a lot of people shot. Working in the Jackson, MS University ER, I saw many "gangbanger" types shot up with 9mm bullets. Most survived, in fact, most walked out of the ER under their own power. Those that died were almost always head wounds. Shot placement seemed to make the difference. The wounds I have seen inflicted by larger calibers were just more, well, devastating. Several cases come to mind:

An elderly gentleman tried to commit suicide with a 380 handgun. He shot himself point-blank in the head. The bullet entered the scalp, bounced off the skull, and exited the scalp. It did knock him out and give him a small SAH, but failed to even crack the skull. Makes me think twice about my KelTec P3AT.

A young man accidentaly shot himself in the knee with a 45ACP with a JHP. Small entrance wound, no exit wound. The xray told the tale - the tibial plateau was shattered. The bullet entered medially, turned down through the tibia, exited the other side. Synovial fluid gurgled out of the open joint. This man will never walk the same again. In addition, he was in no shape to fight or flight after this horrible injury.

One case of a high power rifle to the knee. The leg was basically amputated at the knee joint. I couldn't cover the exit woung with my hand.

Many, many cases of multiple 9mm wounds to the chest, abdomen, and extremities, with the participant arriving to the ER angry and combative. Several hours of surgery later, the 'banger was all patched up, and out of the hospital in a few days.

Shot placement is the most important factor. That being equal, a larger caliber is better. Also, from my experience, a larger caliber to a non-vital (not head or heart) area, can still produce a devastating enough wound to remove a participant from the fight. This has not been my observation with the 9mm.

Just my observations.




Pretty revealing stuff.


So, you're saying that when those gangbangers had found out that they had been shot with 9mm, they were pretty ticked off?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:22:10 AM EDT
If the bullet or weapon is not recovered, it is all but impossible to tell what caliber round was used to make a wound in the human body. If you already know what caliber was used, like from the victim or police telling you, you can frequently "find" differences in the wounds.

In blinded studies, trained doctors cannot tell the difference just from examining the wound track. Food for thought.

You should choose a .45 ACP if you still want to go .45 or 10mm. Lots more ammo choices, and lots better ammo prices available for the ACP. The Glock would be good, if you can deal with the odd grip angle and toy-like trigger pull. There really is nothing wrong with your 1911 for protection. The odds of needing more than 7 or 8 rounds is so small that you should worry more about being struck by lightning. Two 1911 mags should be more than sufficient for any encounter a CCW holder is likely to have.

Since you said the weapon is for home defense, a rifle is a FAR better choice. Easier to aim under stress, and much more lethal. A 16" AR would do far better than ANY available pistol. A .30 Carbine loaded with Remington 110 gr. soft points is also a good choice and will prevent the "he uses an evil black rifle syndrome" if you ever need use it. Remember, a pistol is used to fight your way to your rifle. Skip that step, and start with the rifle. YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:28:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 9:29:28 AM EDT by VBC]
A handgun at home is just a gun to get you to your shotgun.

CDNN is selling a Remington 870 personal defense shotgun right now for $279. It's got a pistol grip, 18" cylinder barrel and 7-shot mag (for 3" magnum shells). Load it with No. 1 buck and you'll turn a bad guy's chest into cottage cheese.



Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:30:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 9:32:09 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By VBC:
A handgun at home is just a gun to get you to your shotgun RIFLE.



FIXED it for you. No charge.


As to the original question, G21.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:33:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 9:34:08 AM EDT by VBC]
Nah, it was right the first time. ;)

If you're going to be engaging people outside your home over 30 yards, then a rifle is needed. But inside a home, you really can't do better than a short barrel 12 ga. w/ No. 1 or bigger buckshot.

Talk about one shot stop.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:38:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:
Nah, it was right the first time. ;)

If you're going to be engaging people outside your home over 30 yards, then a rifle is needed. But inside a home, you really can't do better than a short barrel 12 ga. w/ No. 1 or bigger buckshot.

Talk about one shot stop.



Hardshell was right. A rifle is MUCH better, at any distance, than a shotgun. You will note that shotguns in Iraq are used by US troops for door breaching. Once inside, the rifle is the preferred weapon. There is a reason for that. US troop engaged in CQB shoot a lot more people at room distances than any of us ever will. And they know to use a rifle if at all possible.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:42:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 9:46:26 AM EDT by VBC]
I'm just going based on personal experience. It's a lot easier to kill close range fast moving targets like deer and birds with a shotgun.

That's why you don't see people hunt quail with a rifle. Ever try to hit a jumped deer at 20 yards before it disappears into the thicket. Much easier with buckshot. So I deduce hunting humans under the same scenario would be better off with the same set-up.



Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:42:55 AM EDT
1) 1911
2) Glock 20
3) H&K USP45 Fullsize
4) Glock 21
5) Remington 870
6) Remington 11-87
7) AR-15 SBR 11.5" barrel 75gr TAP
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:47:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:
I'm just going based on personal experience. It's a lot easier to kill close range fast moving targets like deer and birds with a shotgun.

That's why you don't see people hunt quail with a rifle.




The next time quail-sized assailants stage a home invasion, I'll gladly concede the point.


J/K - to each his own, use what you prefer.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:48:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
1) 1911
2) Glock 20
3) H&K USP45 Fullsize
4) Glock 21
5) Remington 870
6) Remington 11-87
7) AR-15 SBR 11.5" barrel 75gr TAP



Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:49:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 9:51:39 AM EDT by VBC]
Go with what you know.


Seriously, though, any backwood country boy that's done a lot of close range hunting will tell you a shotgun is what you want.

With 3" magnum No. 1 buck you're shooting like a 40" swath of death at them. Compared to a 1/4" swath of death.

You're only going to have about 2 or 3 seconds to make your shot. You need a gun which you can point in a general direction and hit your target with massive force. Not one that needs precise aiming of a single projectile into a vital spot.


Rifles are long range (30 yard +) tools.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:07:26 AM EDT
AR pistol.

Big bang, 30 rounds.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:22:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Hardshell was right. A rifle is MUCH better, at any distance, than a shotgun. You will note that shotguns in Iraq are used by US troops for door breaching. Once inside, the rifle machine gun is the preferred weapon. There is a reason for that. US troop engaged in CQB shoot a lot more people at room distances than any of us ever will. And they know to use a rifle machine gun if at all possible.




I think that's why. Most of us civilians are limited to semi-auto rifles.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:45:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Hardshell was right. A rifle is MUCH better, at any distance, than a shotgun. You will note that shotguns in Iraq are used by US troops for door breaching. Once inside, the rifle machine gun is the preferred weapon. There is a reason for that. US troop engaged in CQB shoot a lot more people at room distances than any of us ever will. And they know to use a rifle machine gun if at all possible.




I think that's why. Most of us civilians are limited to semi-auto rifles.



In CQB, they use their M4s and M16s on semi. Very little house clearing is done with a SAW.

As for your deer and quail example: I doubt I will have to shoot flying assailants at 20 yards, since my house is only 32 feet across at its widest point and most criminals lack the power of flight. I have also yet to find a man who runs as fast as a deer. I have shot running white tail deer with a scoped bolt action .30-06. It's really not that tough. Anyway, at room distances, you need to aim a shotgun.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:54:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:57:58 AM EDT by VBC]
You don't aim a shotgun. You point the bead. That's why target aquisition is so quick. Unless it's got iron sights (a slug gun).

Well, to each his/her own. My experience is that it's easier to knock down moving targerts at close range with a shotgun.

You're also more likely to incapicitate on the first hit because you break a whole bunch of bones with buckshot. Like tibia and spine.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:58:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Waldo0506:
AR pistol.

Big bang, 30 rounds.



And a pair of MSA/Sordins.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:59:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:
<snip>

With 3" magnum No. 1 buck you're shooting like a 40" swath of death at them. Compared to a 1/4" swath of death.

<snip>



At 45 yards, the largest pattern Old_Painless got was still only 33 inches. At room distances, it was more like 2-3 inches on average. O_P Patterns Buckshot Do you just make this stuff up as you go?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:04:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By VBC:
<snip>

With 3" magnum No. 1 buck you're shooting like a 40" swath of death at them. Compared to a 1/4" swath of death.

<snip>



At 45 yards, the largest pattern Old_Painless got was still only 33 inches. At room distances, it was more like 2-3 inches on average. O_P Patterns Buckshot Do you just make this stuff up as you go?



Only 30" plus barrels with custom tuned chokes will throw buckshot that tight at 45 yards. You sure you aren't making this up as you go along?


An 18" cylinder bore will throw about a 40" pattern at 20-25 yards.

I'm not making anything up. Just trying to correct some information you stated that in my opinion is wrong. You say a semi-auto rifle is better than a short barrel shotgun w/ buckshot at close quarters. I say you're wrong.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:07:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:
You're also more likely to incapicitate on the first hit because you break a whole bunch of bones with buckshot. Like tibia and spine.



...

Are you just making stuff up? Or going with what you have heard?

I don't recall seeing broken bones on the deer in deer camp hit with 00 Buck at 10yds.....
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:09:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By VBC:
<snip>

With 3" magnum No. 1 buck you're shooting like a 40" swath of death at them. Compared to a 1/4" swath of death.

<snip>



At 45 yards, the largest pattern Old_Painless got was still only 33 inches. At room distances, it was more like 2-3 inches on average. O_P Patterns Buckshot Do you just make this stuff up as you go?



Only 30" plus barrels with custom tuned chokes will throw buckshot that tight at 45 yards. You sure you aren't making this up as you go along?


An 18" cylinder bore will throw about a 40" pattern at 20-25 yards.

I'm not making anything up. Just trying to correct some information you stated that in my opinion is wrong. You say a semi-auto rifle is better than a short barrel shotgun w/ buckshot at close quarters. I say you're wrong.




Not to get in the middle of you two, but by clicking the link above you will see exactly what an 18" cylinder bore will do at the various ranges.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:10:13 AM EDT
My sincerest apologies to El_Guapo!!!

My innocent (I swear! ) little quip seriously derailed his thread - I am sorry...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:10:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:
You need a gun which you can point in a general direction and hit your target with massive force.



I'm no super-SEAL or anything, but any firearm in my house can fit that bill. Especially with a 2-3 second window at "house" distances.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:12:56 AM EDT
So you didn't break any ribs or anything. Interesting magic buckshot.

Different barrels/loading combinations make for different patterns. What somebody does with a Mossberg won't necessarily match what somebody shoots out of a 870.

There are some barrels which just happen to be tight shooters. It doesn't always correlate to length and choke. Against intuition, open chokes seem to pattern tighter in some guns with some loads that full choke long barrels.

I'm still going to maintain that a riot shotgun loaded with buckshot is the best you can do in a house. I just know what they're capable of through 20 plus years of experience shooting them.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:13:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By VBC:
<snip>

With 3" magnum No. 1 buck you're shooting like a 40" swath of death at them. Compared to a 1/4" swath of death.

<snip>



At 45 yards, the largest pattern Old_Painless got was still only 33 inches. At room distances, it was more like 2-3 inches on average. O_P Patterns Buckshot Do you just make this stuff up as you go?



Only 30" plus barrels with custom tuned chokes will throw buckshot that tight at 45 yards. You sure you aren't making this up as you go along?


An 18" cylinder bore will throw about a 40" pattern at 20-25 yards.

I'm not making anything up. Just trying to correct some information you stated that in my opinion is wrong. You say a semi-auto rifle is better than a short barrel shotgun w/ buckshot at close quarters. I say you're wrong.




I really like shotguns and I think they make an excellent home defense firearm but that link has some good info about what they do and what they don't do.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:13:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:19:50 AM EDT by VBC]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By VBC:
You need a gun which you can point in a general direction and hit your target with massive force.



I'm no super-SEAL or anything, but any firearm in my house can fit that bill. Especially with a 2-3 second window at "house" distances.



Have you ever shot somebody in your house or at close range? Ever shot a deer that jumped up right in front of you before it bolted into the brush? If not, you're just guessing. A lot of times when you actually do something you learn a big lesson.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:16:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
I really like shotguns and I think they make an excellent home defense firearm but that link has some good info about what they do and what they don't do.




I've looked at the link and those results are specific to that shotgun and those loads he used. Go out and shoot different shotguns of varying barrels and loads and you'll be suprised how much variation there is between shotguns, barrel lengths, chokes and loads.

There is practically no rule of thumb you can follow. Some long barrels with full chokes pattern some buck shot loads widely. Some short barrel open chokes throw tight patterns.

That's why it's always been said to test your shotgun combo on paper before you rely on it so you know what you're getting.

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