So it seems "just about everything" I said isn't incorrect

I'm not comparing how nice the triggers feel, but the amount of force it would require to have trigger pulled by some object while gun is in holster.  My Beretta 92 has a 5.5# SA pull.  It's been a while since I handled a 320, but I recall its trigger is around 5#s.  I haven't measured trigger travel length, but I believe the 320 is shorter than a Glock, and closer to SA travel length on many DA/SA guns.

I'm not saying the trigger safety is the most important safety, but if it turns out these guns went off as I theorized in post #28 above, then a trigger safety would have prevented that.


Thank you for confirming my statement is accurate.

Oops, double post

I never said it was and disagree with whomever posted that.



It seems that most everyone is arguing that something pulled the trigger. Whether it was a finger or foreign object, and whether it was intentional has not been clearly identified. The officers are claiming that the discharges were unintentional, and at least one claimed that "nothing" pulled on the trigger. Given the design of the P320 series, I find the claim that "nothing" pulled the trigger to lack merit.

Back to your post in #28 - I agree the likely scenario is that something foreign got into the trigger guard and pulled the trigger, but I disagree that a Glock style trigger safety would have prevented a discharge. Anecdotal (test set n>1) evidence confirms multiple instances in the past of unintentional discharges of Glocks in holsters, with trigger fingers not in play, so at best a Glock trigger safety may have prevented the discharges.

That one department had multiple similar discharges, it makes me wonder if there is standardized gear (holster, jacket, belt, etc.) and training which may account for the discharges.

See posts on page 1.  I wasn't referring to you


I've certainly heard of instances where Glocks and other guns went off while holstering, due to some object pressing trigger.  But I've never heard of other striker fired guns going off after they're already in the holster.  Not saying it never happened, I've just never heard of it.  The holster this officer was using was a light bearing Safariland, there was a video of her with holster in the GD thread.  Maybe someone can do a test of how easy it would be for an object to pull trigger on a 320 while in one of these holsters, compared to other striker fired guns with trigger safeties.  Would be interesting to see results of that.

I know Laredo, TX PD had very similar issues with the Sig P320 discharging without pulling the trigger.

Want to send a retention holster that'll hold a Glock 34?

I've got a setup for a P320 and M&P if you want to try some testing.

As for "while holstering" vs "while holstered" it's a bit of the same thing, just different sequences. Another member relayed information about an issued jacket with the elastic/buttoned straps. It could make sense that it was caught against the trigger while holstering, but then tension was added after the face (while walking, perhaps?) to pull the trigger. Either way would point to the culprit being inattention during holstering.

Is there something inherently unsafe with that? At least as far as a Beretta 92 goes, it's drop safe, even in single action. Factory Beretta 92s generally have around a 5 pound trigger as well.

You can argue all you want, but you don't see any Glocks shooting when you drop them.

When the lawsuits started with the P320, many groups were able to recreate the flaw on camera with primed brass. This is a total engineering failure that never should have made it to production. It's inexcusable and casts a lot of concern on their overall design decision making.

Did the officers pistol "just go off" in her holster?  Unlikely - but with Sig - it's not a 0% chance.

There's enough reports of this that I don't think negligence is to blame. Whether it's a holster issue or gun issue I don't know. You don't see this issue with Glock or S&W. Oddly enough both Glock and S&W are on the NIJ Compliant Products List while SIG has not submitted a model for testing. I suspect the drop test would be a killer as the rest of the testing is pretty basic.

I have a great deal of respect for cops and military, but it is a mistake to put them on a pedestal. I worked with a guy who was a veteran LAPD cop and he told me LEOs blowing holes in the roofs of their squad cars with 870's was not unusual. Maybe bullshit, maybe not. Remember that Canadian special ops who shot himself in the leg with a 320? Then it turned out he wasn't even using a 320 holster but a holster for something else? Why is it with all the 320's sold are so few guns going off by themselves I wonder.

And in 2 police agencies directly adjacent to each other. Sounds like the Law Offices of Dewey, Cheatham and Howe were passing out business cards.

Outside of whats going on with the internals there..... the trigger bounce in your clip is scary. I'm assuming those are pre-upgraded FCU's, and I would hope so.

Boston still has Glocks but I know SIG has been trying to get our contract.

You are correct, we agree! Well sort of.
It is NOT a 0% chance, but it is NOT a 0% for a Glock, SW, HK, or any other Striker fired pistol "IF" a foreign object enters the holster or trigger guard and presses the trigger. Unless its an M17/18 where a manual safety can be engaged. You have pinned yourself to the narrative that it is a mechanical failure of some kind without any type of proof other than internet stories and lawsuits

For the record, you don't see the Sig P320 firing either when its is dropped, that was pre-upgrade, and it has nothing to do with your "dongle".

Your "animation" is a computer generated depiction of the an issue that has since been resolved (2018). Your post exacerbates the issue as you (and others) are purposely trying to confuse people by melding the two separate claims into one.
(By the way Sig is actually suing a company now over a computer animation that was produced to purposely mislead people and the courts to believe that there is a mechanical issue with the FCU that will allow it to fire randomly. The problem with their animation is, the shapes of certain parts were purposely changed to make it "look like" failures could occur, when in fact they cannot.)    Sig Sauer Suit TFB

The $10M Lawsuit was for the Drop Safety issue on PRE-UPGRADED Guns. It was settled, yes. But NOT for $10M. Two pending lawsuits were for; 1 Officer carrying her P320 in her purse. She stated it was holstered, Ok, sure. 1 Officer was carrying his P320 wrapped in a towel in his gym bag unholstered.......... Yeah, Ok.
Another one, a School Security Guard admitted to "playing" with his gun while at a School function, "pulling it out slightly and pushing it back into his holster", Yeah no way there was any Negligence there...

This is subjective, the P320 did pass all required drop tests prior to the upgrade, it was only when the height was increased and it was dropped at an exact angle that this was discovered. And what did Sig do about? SIG Engineers confirmed the findings and then SIG put into motion one of the largest upgrade programs to ever be offered.
What? Did It Cost too much --- Wait ! It was fricking FREE including the postage, As it should have been.
What? Didn't they do it fast enough for you? How long should it have taken to put together enough people at SIG to receive, upgrade, and return them to their owners? Mine took 3 weeks for 3 pistols. This was a MASSIVE undertaking that cost them thousands of dollars, maybe millions. But people just seem to gloss right over that by making ridiculous and ignorant statements like yours above.

Guns going off while holstered are either due to Negligence or a foreign object such as clothing or a Patrol jacket Draw string entering the holster plain and simple. Law suits were filed in an attempt to protect one's career and livelihood by blaming the gun.
There is absolutely ZERO proof that  a P320 can just randomly "Go Off" in a Holster unless it is acted upon by an outside force. It is mechanically impossible.

People can mince words and and act like children all they want in these forums, but purposely trying to pass one's self off as some kind of expert because of something you read on the internet is at best ignorance and at worst some sort of narcissistic desire for validation. This relentless need to bash Sig because your favorite Gun LOST is getting tiresome. You guys remind me of trying to argue with Liberals/Progressives, never willing to listen to facts or anything that doesn't fit in your narrative.

For those of you who are truly interested in how the Sig P320 FCU and safeties work, watch the video I posted above. I know the fool above tried to minimize the video by complaining about the first 10 minutes being about the takedown lever, but again, that was an attempt to divert attention away from the rest of the video. This Armor truly understands the mechanics of this system and explains each area of the system down to the very last component.
It is truly interesting and well done and I can assure you, that if you have any doubts about the safety of the P320, he will lay them to rest.

Sig P320 Safety Mechanism’s

cp

lol

Eaglecp, do you work for sig or associated with them in any way?

He doth protest too much.

Look Eagle. The most grievous sin by Sig was their Design and QA program allows a non-drop safe pistol into the wild. This is inexcusable.

You can piss on glock all you want but they never let a non drop safe pistol into production. Sig cut corners and shouldn't be trusted until they earn it back

It's late, there's been a bunch of back and forth in here since my last post, but just to make sure I'm on the same page as you: everything that Sig has done since the initial offering of the P320, the re-design and upgrade process, all the testing that the M17 has been through for Army trials (but not NIJ voluntary testing) is, in your opinion, not enough to "earn back" any trust?

What would you define as enough to earn back trust?

Transparency.

Articulate what failed in the design and testing - then showcase what controls were put in place to mitigate it from happening again.

Sig has been innovating the pants off of everybody but they also have made some significant design fails &/or questionable decisions like the P320 not being drop safe, early P365 strikers failing due to poor metallurgy, making rapid updates that leave prior generation users with no compatibility like the MPX magazines.  

They produce some really nice firearms but they seem to be more prone to corner cutting. I'm just not gonna appendix carry a gun designed by some guys who have cut some corners when it comes to safety - at least until proven otherwise.

In the end, it is a forgivable sin.  However - If they knew it wasn't drop safe and released or continued its sale anyways (as some lawyers allege), that is unforgivable.

No.  I just prefer Fact over Fiction with an agenda.
cp

Consensus does not Govern Fact brother. I do find it somewhat humorous though, that you think I protest too much, when you literally troll every thread about the P320 to protest your "opinion" as is evident in your post count.
So, you "assume", based on your comment above and in your response to leelaw, that the "BIG EVIL Corporation" (SIG) knew this was an issue and released the Product anyway? In fact, there was extensive safety testing done on this pistol prior to its release and it passed every one. Then, when it was later discovered that a particular scenario, outside of standard testing protocols, produced and issue with the P320 that caused it to fire when dropped, how did SIG respond?
That's about as transparent as it gets brother, you are just too stubborn to admit it.

Look Fooboy, you and your guys can call me a "Fanboy" all you want, and maybe I am a big fan of Sigs and particularly the P320/ M17/18 series. But I DO NOT ignore facts or mechanical science and state opinion and Lawsuits as proof that there is some sort mechanical issue here with the P320. Like I said above, if PROOF comes out of these Lawsuits that there was a mechanical failure of the multiple safeties, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.
Although, I will not accept a finding of guilt or liable against Sig based on the fact they are GUN Company and therefore they must be guilty (like they did against Bushmaster for school shootings), the finding must be based in mechanical fact. Anything else is just conjecture.

Oh, one more thing..... When did I ever "piss on Glock" ? In all my posts, I have never pissed on another brand of firearm, to include Glock, in an attempt to validate my point. I did humorously refer to the "dongle" safety of the Glock and other brands that share it, but not to criticize it, only point out that it, in and of itself, is NOT a "be all-end all" safety. Glock, Smith, and HK, have internal safeties as well. Even with a dongle, if something gets in the trigger guard. it will still go Bang.  Would you agree?
As a Matter of fact (ok this is a second thing...Sorry) I know Some Sig owners PooPoo on the Agency Arms Trigger for the P320 that includes a dongle, but I am currently testing one on one of my Sig P320s. I can see the legitimacy of another safety that would, or could, prevent the trigger being actuated from the side. I am considering this, not because I feel the Sig to be inferior without it, but because products evolve and if it does not affect function or reliability, I don't see the harm in having it.

Food for thought.
cp

Eaglecp, anyone who disagrees with you is a troll with an agenda, but you're just telling the facts? Lol  ok.  
If anyone has an agenda it's you, I've never seen anyone carry water for a brand like you have.
Where are these facts you speak of?

We can be friends - after all you are a RDS guy.  

The p320 functioned exactly how it was designed, it doesn't just "go off", however the trigger could be "pulled" by inertia when it's dropped as there is no safety feature to prevent this. You can see this in the gif I posted.

I think they should have caught this. This is why most manufacturers have some preventative measure like a trigger dongle.

For the record - Im impressed by Sigs ability to read the market, innovate quickly, and tick off the atf.  But I do think they fumbled the ball there.

I agree we can be friends, LOL.  except you do realize the the Inertia thing was fixed with the updated features in 2018 right? No one has been able to make this occur since the recall.

Just checking
cp

Yes I am aware.

And most certainly Yes! I am an RDS guy.  
Cp

Looks to me like Sommerville, MA PD wanted some free training at the Sig Academy and was told to FO.

Never been to the academy but I did attend one of there courses if the guys that taught it are any indication of the academy it would be top notch.

so let me get this straight.
Since the upgrade, no P320 has been shown to fire when dropped at any angle? None?  Zero?  Are we sure?  

And
Has anyone anywhere been able to conclusively show how the P320 can randomly fire without pulling the trigger somehow?
Seems someone would have incentive to prove it.
Anyone?

I own several Glocks, and I own several SIGs

My favorite guns to shoot are SIGs but my duty firearm is a Glock 22....

While I love SIG and think they are certainly more "pristine" than the Glock, there undoubtedly has been some major safety issues that have been released to the consumers before "proper" testing has been done.

I remember nutnfancy's video on the Cross and how, within a few hours, SIG immediately released a statement leading to a recall. Does this mean that they "know" there are issues and are waiting for a certain number of problems to happen before they do anything? Maybe?

While I agree that transparency is huge, I still love SIG. I love their customer service and I love their products because, fortunately for me, I have had ZERO issues with the several I own. But I also love Glocks because it's gotten me out of some shit while at work... so I'm impartial.

But, based on some of my friends who have had issues with theirs, I do feel that SIG should maybe just say something to the extent of "... this was our testing procedure, these are issues that are new to us, this is what we are doing to fix this issue and ensure future..."

This has been my only point all along. No one can seem to "Prove" a mechanical deficiency with the current system. In addition, we are talking about two separate issues here and many people through out this thread are either confused by that or are purposely melding them in an effort to confuse people. My only agenda here is truth and the destruction of ignorance...
The guy in the video goes to great lengths to truly explain and teach people about the mechanics behind the system. Is it more complicated than other systems? Yes. Inferior? No, but thus far, unless a mechanical issue can be discovered and recreated, that's an opinion left up to the individual purchasing the product.

cp

Agreed

Wasn't the whole reason the M17/M18 had the thinner trigger shoe was because they discovered the drop safety issue during testing for the MHS? And then SIG continued to sell the pistol with the older, heavier trigger shoe until the issue was made viral?

Like the solution to the drop safety issue was to use the M17/M18 trigger shoe for all the "safety upgrade" (which should have been a recall).

I don't really like your description of their actions as being generous in this case (in one of your previous comments), or how that could really be seen as transparent. I would call that getting caught with your pants down and trying to do damage control.

No, completely un- true internet conjecture. There were two other upgrades to the safety system and slide during this upgrade besides the trigger itself being replaced. There is no “trigger shoe” on a P320, you are using improper terminology.

No, I never said or in any way inferred that Sig was being “generous” in how they handled the upgrade. They did what needed to be done, and they did it the right way (IMHO) period.

Reading is fundamental my friend. Read entire posts and threads before posting something completely out of context.
Cp

I would say this:
"What? Did It Cost too much --- Wait ! It was fricking FREE including the postage, As it should have been.
What? Didn't they do it fast enough for you? How long should it have taken to put together enough people at SIG to receive, upgrade, and return them to their owners? Mine took 3 weeks for 3 pistols. This was a MASSIVE undertaking that cost them thousands of dollars, maybe millions. But people just seem to gloss right over that by making ridiculous and ignorant statements like yours above."

Would be describing their actions as generous, by any other word(s).

The "upgrades" that were given during what should have been a safey recall we're the exact implementations found within the post-trials M17 and M18.