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Posted: 12/31/2020 11:41:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FN HPDA Browning BDA FN Forty Nine FNP/Browning Pro Series FNX Series FNS Series All have something in common.... FN killed support of each of then as they moved onto the next one and it wasn't after decades of support either. It was within a few years. I would absolutely LOVE one of their AR15's, but wasn't willing to pay the premium they wanted. And that leaves me basically not a customer of theirs even though I respect the hell out of their capabilities. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 11:52:24 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. P90 and FSN were made for the NATO PDW requirement that was never finalized because of H&K/Germany's disagreement with NATO choosing FN. FNP-45T was for some military contract bid. Same with the 509 series. Hell, even Ruger developed the P-Series for the XM9 Trials. That's nothing new.... only Colt and HK pretty much develops something for a military trial and never brings it to the civilian market. Everyone else will try to recoup and recover the time and effort they put into developing a product. It is only natural. Again, Herstal Group pretty much tries to sell everything to the US Civilian Market. Some of their stuff sucks.... trust me, I had a FNP-45 USG and it sucked worsed than Kamala Harris. But they released the damn thing on the market when the Joint Pistol Trials went nowhere. So did Beretta, GLOCK, and even HS Produkt (Springfield Armory) and Taurus. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 11:55:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: HK can't import their rifles, thank Bush 1 for that. Look at the abortions that are the SL8 and USC. I know some have called for them to just move production stateside but I wouldn't have any interest in a US-made HK. I guess an ideal solution would be to do what IWI's stateside subsidiary does with the Tavors, import essentially complete guns and then swap out whatever is necessary to appease 922r. I wonder if they have any market research on how viable that would be. Who knows how the German government would respond with their retarded export laws. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All of those guns you lost were either made for military contracts or solicitations and sold to the civilian market as an afterthought. I won't argue about HK not caring about the civilian market either, because they clearly don't, probably even more so than FNH. At least HK makes some decent guns though. HK can't import their rifles, thank Bush 1 for that. Look at the abortions that are the SL8 and USC. I know some have called for them to just move production stateside but I wouldn't have any interest in a US-made HK. I guess an ideal solution would be to do what IWI's stateside subsidiary does with the Tavors, import essentially complete guns and then swap out whatever is necessary to appease 922r. I wonder if they have any market research on how viable that would be. Who knows how the German government would respond with their retarded export laws. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 12:33:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: HK can't import their rifles, thank Bush 1 for that. Look at the abortions that are the SL8 and USC. I know some have called for them to just move production stateside but I wouldn't have any interest in a US-made HK. I guess an ideal solution would be to do what IWI's stateside subsidiary does with the Tavors, import essentially complete guns and then swap out whatever is necessary to appease 922r. I wonder if they have any market research on how viable that would be. Who knows how the German government would respond with their retarded export laws. It’s not them just not being able to import their rifles, they don’t care about civilian sales and even LE sales for the most part. It takes a back seat to military sales and by back seat I mean more like the trunk. I’m friends with one of the HMFIC at one of their largest dealer/distributors and even the civilian pistols they make runs of them when they feel like it. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 12:48:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: HK can't import their rifles, thank Bush 1 for that. Look at the abortions that are the SL8 and USC. I know some have called for them to just move production stateside but I wouldn't have any interest in a US-made HK. I guess an ideal solution would be to do what IWI's stateside subsidiary does with the Tavors, import essentially complete guns and then swap out whatever is necessary to appease 922r. I wonder if they have any market research on how viable that would be. Who knows how the German government would respond with their retarded export laws. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All of those guns you lost were either made for military contracts or solicitations and sold to the civilian market as an afterthought. I won’t argue about HK not caring about the civilian market either, because they clearly don’t, probably even more so than FNH. At least HK makes some decent guns though. HK can't import their rifles, thank Bush 1 for that. Look at the abortions that are the SL8 and USC. I know some have called for them to just move production stateside but I wouldn't have any interest in a US-made HK. I guess an ideal solution would be to do what IWI's stateside subsidiary does with the Tavors, import essentially complete guns and then swap out whatever is necessary to appease 922r. I wonder if they have any market research on how viable that would be. Who knows how the German government would respond with their retarded export laws. Unless something changed the SCARs are imported as neutered guns and converted stateside. our import laws suck. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 4:10:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Biggest problem I see is how fast they discontinue pistols. Glock S&W both basically make the same duty pistol as they have for some time. Yes newer generations but a lot of commonality. FN makes something and in a few years when sales die down they cancel it instead of improving it and replace it with something completely different. So no one wants to make holsters, aftermarket shit, or commit to anything and the pistol falls into the history books. FN parts are expensive and additional mags are HK air higher price. Average Joe’s want to buy a Glock or M&P type pistol where mags are affordable and to get setup is not over a grand.
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Posted: 12/31/2020 4:25:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Biggest problem I see is how fast they discontinue pistols. Glock S&W both basically make the same duty pistol as they have for some time. Yes newer generations but a lot of commonality. FN makes something and in a few years when sales die down they cancel it instead of improving it and replace it with something completely different. So no one wants to make holsters, aftermarket shit, or commit to anything and the pistol falls into the history books. FN parts are expensive and additional mags are HK air higher price. Average Joe’s want to buy a Glock or M&P type pistol where mags are affordable and to get setup is not over a grand. Yup... The may have earned the right to be able to overcharge for their rifles, but, unlike Beretta, Colt (1911s), S&W, Sig, HK, CZ, etc, they haven't earned the reputation to charge a premium for their handguns. No one is going to pay more or the same price for over the other dominant, reputable, tried and true handgun manufacturers. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 4:49:13 PM EDT
[#8]
They seem to sell out every single FN FiveseveN 5.7x28mm they bring in at $1,200-$1,300+
That being said, yes they’ve horribly over priced. I paid $1,250 for mine with the Law Enforcement discount. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 5:23:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SIG is moving their entire production to the US starting tomorrow. They will no longer be German made. Why? Because the German Government is a pain to deal with. HK currently makes the civilian 416 and HK45 pistol in the US to bypass US and German laws. They could make the SL-8 and USC stateside without the need to make them legal for export from Germany and legal for import into the US. Nothing new on SIG really since the German SIG hasn't been allowed to export for years anyway leaving us with the US made shit or overpaying for second hand real German SIGs. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 5:39:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They seem to sell out every single FN FiveseveN 5.7x28mm they bring in at $1,200-$1,300+ That being said, yes they’ve horribly over priced. I paid $1,250 for mine with the Law Enforcement discount. How many FN FiveseveN do they release into the wild vs any particular platforms other manufacturers have on the market? Not saying much to be sold out of something (especially vs other manufacturers) when you're product is extremely low to begin with. If I make 5 of something and it sells out, and others are making 500 and are sold out or still have stock, that doesn't mean my product is just as or more popular than my competitors. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 5:49:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nothing new on SIG really since the German SIG hasn't been allowed to export for years anyway leaving us with the US made shit or overpaying for second hand real German SIGs. Keep in mind that the only real big seller for Sig in the U.S. is the P365 and the p320. I remember the P250 and P320 came out. No one wanted them, and they weren't that popular. The P250 was discontinued, and if it wasn't for the Army adopting the platform, the P320 would have been discontinued by now too. They are only popular and became popular for one reason and one reason only. Even then, they had a shit ton of issues that never would have been addressed or know by civilians if it wasn't for the Army trails. I still think the Beretta APX is a much better platform and pistol, and would take one of them over an U.S. made P320 indefinitely. They shot have went with the APX or Glock. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 5:53:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind that the only real big seller for Sig in the U.S. is the P365 and the p320. I remember the P250 and P320 came out. No one wanted them, and they weren't that popular. The P250 was discontinued, and if it wasn't for the Army adopting the platform, the P320 would have been discontinued by now too. They are only popular and became popular for one reason and one reason only. Even then, they had a shit ton of issues that never would have been addressed or know by civilians if it wasn't for the Army trails. I still think the Beretta APX is a much better platform and pistol, and would take one of them over an U.S. made P320 indefinitely. They shot have went with the APX or Glock. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 6:32:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: PDs were adopting the P320 before the DoD did its thing. The P250 died because it was a DAO hammer fired gun in an age of striker fired guns. I was on just about every gun forum, in gun shops, watching top 100 best sellers every from Buds & GunBroker, watched YT gun channels, and watching the IDPA most popular pistols. The P320 was rarely brought up or talked about in the civilian market until they trails were mentioned. They also didn't have the presence in gunshops, at least in my area, that they do now. What percentage or how many PDs adopted them before the trails vs now? Glock, S&W, and the metal frame Sigs ruled that market for years and made up the bunk or what L.E. carried, so if PDs carried them before the trails, it couldn't have been many. Yes, the P250 being DAO was part of why it died, but the fact still remains based on what I seen, the P320 still wasn't that popular. Sig even offers a DA/SA version that also isn't that popular. It's a matter of time before that's gone too. |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 9:02:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Their approach to civilian pistol marketing always seemed to be "well fellas, here's a pistol that we couldn't pass a military trial with, or get any government interested in buying... ya wouldn't happen to be interested in it, would ya? Oh yeah, and just between me and you, you may as well buy all the mags you can find NOW."
That said, I think the HP DA was a criminally underrated design.  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 9:08:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their approach to civilian pistol marketing always seemed to be "well fellas, here's a pistol that we couldn't pass a military trial with, or get any government interested in buying... ya wouldn't happen to be interested in it, would ya? Oh yeah, and just between me and you, you may as well buy all the mags you can find NOW." That said, I think the HP DA was a criminally underrated design. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/9714/1200px-Bda9_JPG-1757565.JPG That was a.stupid ugly gun. An abomination |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 9:35:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What percentage or how many PDs adopted them before the trails vs now? Glock, S&W, and the metal frame Sigs ruled that market for years and made up the bunk or what L.E. carried, so if PDs carried them before the trails, it couldn't have been many. My old department conducted our pistol evaluation in the summer of 2015 and selected the P320 Carry. Actually the 17 round "Carry" model hadn't come out yet but we requested it and Sig created the model because multiple departments where inquiring. We were the first federal agency to adopt the P320 in 2015 so Sig was very accommodating for us. When I was doing market research at the beginning of the contracting process I found about a dozen or so smaller departments mostly in New England were carrying the P320. I spoke with someone in the Oklahoma Highway Patrol firearms unit about their 2015 P320 pistol selection and I also reach out to Texas DPS but never spoke to anyone in Texas. That was all before the 2017 Army announcement for the P320 award. In December 2017 Sig replaced 450 of our P320 pistols with the upgraded model. When I was planning the logistics to get 450 pistols in officers holster replaced I inquired with Sig about their time frame. I recall being told Sig was putting out 5000 pistols a week and they were ramping up for 100,000+ upgrades. David |
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Posted: 12/31/2020 10:10:12 PM EDT
[#17]
I picked up 2 of their FNS-9 pistols from AIM when they were dirt cheap. The ergonomics of them fits me perfectly. One resides in my nightstand. I picked up plenty of replacement parts and mag springs, so between the two of them I am set for personal polymer protection.
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Posted: 12/31/2020 10:22:27 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm responding to a few different posts in this but first FN didn't "ruin" Winchester. Miami_JBT gave a good summary on that. The current Winchesters made in Japan are higher quality than any of the American made guns of the past. Miroku does phenomenal work. Same with the current FN Model 70s. They are better built than any Model 70 of the past.
...and FN owning Winchester and Browning isn't equatable to Cerberus owning Remington, Marlin, Bushmaster, etc. The difference is Cerberus didn't actually care and tanked those companies and turned their QC and products into garbage. Remington went from being one of the premier American firearm manufacturers to being a joke among gun owners. On the other hand FN took Winchester and improved them when they moved their production to Miroku and FN Portugal. I won't include Browning because they have had quality firearms made in Belgium and Miroku for a long time and they've always been great under FN's watch. And lastly Browning and Winchester are solely focused on civilian sales for FN. All of their guns are for hunting or some form of target shooting. They also sell very well. Depending on when you're looking it can be hard to find certain firearms like the Browning BLR, Winchester lever guns, some variants of the Model 70, etc. |
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Posted: 1/1/2021 11:14:02 AM EDT
[#19]
I own a few FN products, including a PS90. Frankly, while they make great products, they are typically waaaaaay overpriced. If you examine the P90/PS90, it is a rough Al alloy casting and molded plastic surrounding a super simple action. Don’t get me wrong, it’s simplicity is a big part of it’s success but the retail price tag is not commensurate with what you are getting.
Same with the FN57. I just can’t look beyond the price tag. $1,300 for a plastic frame pistol? I can buy the Ruger57 for half that and it will do the same thing for me. However, nothing wrong with buying or shooting FN. If that is what you want then get it. That is what I did with the PS90. |
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Posted: 1/1/2021 12:06:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I own a few FN products, including a PS90. Frankly, while they make great products, they are typically waaaaaay overpriced. If you examine the P90/PS90, it is a rough Al alloy casting and molded plastic surrounding a super simple action. Don't get me wrong, it's simplicity is a big part of it's success but the retail price tag is not commensurate with what you are getting. Same with the FN57. I just can't look beyond the price tag. $1,300 for a plastic frame pistol? I can buy the Ruger57 for half that and it will do the same thing for me. However, nothing wrong with buying or shooting FN. If that is what you want then get it. That is what I did with the PS90. |
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Posted: 1/1/2021 12:10:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I own a few FN products, including a PS90. Frankly, while they make great products, they are typically waaaaaay overpriced. If you examine the P90/PS90, it is a rough Al alloy casting and molded plastic surrounding a super simple action. Don’t get me wrong, it’s simplicity is a big part of it’s success but the retail price tag is not commensurate with what you are getting. Same with the FN57. I just can’t look beyond the price tag. $1,300 for a plastic frame pistol? I can buy the Ruger57 for half that and it will do the same thing for me. However, nothing wrong with buying or shooting FN. If that is what you want then get it. That is what I did with the PS90. The P90 frustrates me in that regard. The entire design principle was to be a 21st century M1 Carbine in role and purpose; and in cost effectiveness. It's vastly better in all counts. Including manufacturers cost-effectiveness. It's barely above Happy-Meal Toy in cost of fabrication (some hyperbole there, but only some); yet they charge $1000 for it. That thing should cost on the order of a Kel-Tec pocket .380. And that's FN. Fabulous engineers, extremely cost-effective designs, and then priced waaaaayyy too much, to pay for the cost-effective engineering?  |
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Posted: 1/1/2021 2:07:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I own a few FN products, including a PS90. Frankly, while they make great products, they are typically waaaaaay overpriced. If you examine the P90/PS90, it is a rough Al alloy casting and molded plastic surrounding a super simple action. Don’t get me wrong, it’s simplicity is a big part of it’s success but the retail price tag is not commensurate with what you are getting. Same with the FN57. I just can’t look beyond the price tag. $1,300 for a plastic frame pistol? I can buy the Ruger57 for half that and it will do the same thing for me. However, nothing wrong with buying or shooting FN. If that is what you want then get it. That is what I did with the PS90. Quote HistoryQuoted: I own a few FN products, including a PS90. Frankly, while they make great products, they are typically waaaaaay overpriced. If you examine the P90/PS90, it is a rough Al alloy casting and molded plastic surrounding a super simple action. Don’t get me wrong, it’s simplicity is a big part of it’s success but the retail price tag is not commensurate with what you are getting. Same with the FN57. I just can’t look beyond the price tag. $1,300 for a plastic frame pistol? I can buy the Ruger57 for half that and it will do the same thing for me. However, nothing wrong with buying or shooting FN. If that is what you want then get it. That is what I did with the PS90. Yeah, the PS90 should be closer to $650-$700! Law Enforcement price WAS $799. You can’t tell me they weren’t making a profit at that price, an FN Sub-D L.E. Dealer paid a little over $750! The patents have either run out or are close, hopefully someone like Man Kave will offer a clone! And you mentioned the receiver casting, don’t get me started on that subject! NO ONE would purchase an AR-15 if the receivers looked like a PS90 casting! AND the crappy HIGH BUILD paint job used too hide the porosity of the casting! Quoted: The P90 frustrates me in that regard. The entire design principle was to be a 21st century M1 Carbine in role and purpose; and in cost effectiveness. It's vastly better in all counts. Including manufacturers cost-effectiveness. It's barely above Happy-Meal Toy in cost of fabrication (some hyperbole there, but only some); yet they charge $1000 for it. That thing should cost on the order of a Kel-Tec pocket .380. And that's FN. Fabulous engineers, extremely cost-effective designs, and then priced waaaaayyy too much, to pay for the cost-effective engineering? I’d buy all I could get at $1000, they’re currently bringing $1,500-$1,600! |
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Posted: 1/1/2021 2:40:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And that's FN. Fabulous engineers, extremely cost-effective designs, and then priced waaaaayyy too much, to pay for the cost-effective engineering? You think all those social programs are gonna pay for themselves ? |
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Posted: 1/1/2021 6:25:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They have no real brand identity when it comes to handguns because they are constantly discontinuing and replacing their pistols. Like Ruger but double the price. |
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Posted: 1/2/2021 12:00:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Since the SCAR comes up remember all the different barrels and configs FN said were coming? Yeah none of that happened. They did manage to increase the price yearly more than it's alternates which are many. (LWRCI better in every way.)
All that and it sh#t the bed when it went to war. (Sorry fans. It didn't perform as promised.) |
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Posted: 1/2/2021 12:33:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All of those guns you lost were either made for military contracts or solicitations and sold to the civilian market as an afterthought. I won’t argue about HK not caring about the civilian market either, because they clearly don’t, probably even more so than FNH. At least HK makes some decent guns though. Truly successful "tactical" guns come from mil/le solicitation, not from targeting the civilian market. Look at the widespread success of the MCX and SCAR. Then look at the cult niche success of the ACR, XCR, 556... If it's not an AR based platform it's not going to survive and thrive without decent domestic organizational adoption. |
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Posted: 1/2/2021 12:39:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SIG is moving their entire production to the US starting tomorrow. They will no longer be German made. Why? Because the German Government is a pain to deal with. HK currently makes the civilian 416 and HK45 pistol in the US to bypass US and German laws. They could make the SL-8 and USC stateside without the need to make them legal for export from Germany and legal for import into the US. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: All of those guns you lost were either made for military contracts or solicitations and sold to the civilian market as an afterthought. I won't argue about HK not caring about the civilian market either, because they clearly don't, probably even more so than FNH. At least HK makes some decent guns though. HK can't import their rifles, thank Bush 1 for that. Look at the abortions that are the SL8 and USC. I know some have called for them to just move production stateside but I wouldn't have any interest in a US-made HK. I guess an ideal solution would be to do what IWI's stateside subsidiary does with the Tavors, import essentially complete guns and then swap out whatever is necessary to appease 922r. I wonder if they have any market research on how viable that would be. Who knows how the German government would respond with their retarded export laws. HK USA would sell F/A MP7s if they could. Its not just a matter of our importation laws, but also Germans export laws. Which includes the technical data owned by HK. The German government also has significant control and ownership of the technical data so HK can't just make G36s domestically, as the German government restricts and owns the intellectual property. |
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Posted: 1/2/2021 12:49:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind that the only real big seller for Sig in the U.S. is the P365 and the p320. I remember the P250 and P320 came out. No one wanted them, and they weren't that popular. The P250 was discontinued, and if it wasn't for the Army adopting the platform, the P320 would have been discontinued by now too. They are only popular and became popular for one reason and one reason only. Even then, they had a shit ton of issues that never would have been addressed or know by civilians if it wasn't for the Army trails. I still think the Beretta APX is a much better platform and pistol, and would take one of them over an U.S. made P320 indefinitely. They shot have went with the APX or Glock. Well now you know how widespread adoption is vital to the success of XCR and tactical firearms. It was gaining widespread addition with state and local LE prior to the MHS trials. Then it became the DoD handgun. Then it was adopted by DHS. What seperates success (Glock, P320, M&P) from the miscellaneous discount case at the gun store (APX, the entirety of the FN product line) is widespread professional adoption. If the 509 has succeeded instead of the P320 we'd be having this same conversation with the brand reversed. But if your Aunt had testicles... Modern fighting handguns are basically all interchangeable with minor personal preference. What success means for a handgun platform is aftermarket support for parts, upgrades, smithing, holsters and long term support from the market and manufacture. |
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