I own a shield, and carry it every day.  But the Bersa thunder 380 plus keeps drawing my eye.  They're about the same size- would 15 rounds of 380 be better than 7 rounds of 9mm?

If you use FMJ's they produce basically the same wound when comparing 9mm to 380acp. However if you compare hollow points, then I would only use 9mm. The 380acp caliber doesn't produce enough power to allow for enough penetration with a hollow point round. I'd stick with the Shield 9mm with hollow points and carry spare mags if I was you.

You can carry what you want, but the first few shots are likely to count most. The .380 is demonstrably less effective than 9mm on the street. Id find a way to carry extra mags, the shield mags are tiny, flat and generally light.

Modern bullet technology has significantly increased the lethality of smaller projectiles (like 380 and 9mm versus 40 and 10mm) and in 9mm world, capacity is king so 380 with 15 should be >>> 9mm with 7.

Right?

I have avoided .380 auto for 27 years because of the anemic performance of the round. HOWEVER, in the last couple of years I have seen some .380 rounds that seem to have decent performance. There is one round in particular that has caught my eye. Actually MORE than caught my eye. It's the Hornady 90gr FTX Critical Defense round. The performace in gel with denim is extremely impressive. Luckygunner has done extensive ammo testing on a wide variety of defensive rounds in a number of calibers. The Hornady 90gr FTX Critical Defense 380 round performs better than some 9mm contenders.

LUCKYGUNNER LABS: Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition Ballistics Test


Generally I go with Federal HST for defensive ammo in 9mm and 45acp. And Speer Gold Dots for 223/5.56. I'm not a Hornady guy at all. But the Horandy round outperforms everything else by a wide margin in .380.

In fact I was so impressed by the FTX's performance, I bought a Glock 42. The first 380 I have owned in 30 years of shooting. Great little gun too! I shoot the freaking lights out with that little thing!


All groups are 10 yards offhand with a full mag:

I would pick a 9MM Shield over a Bersa 380 Plus and I would carry one or two spare mags for the Shield.   The double stack mags aren’t concealed as easy as the single stack 9 MM mags.   Ultimately what you carry should be in consideration of your threat level.  When I worked the street in LE I carried a Glock 22 as did most local officers in my area.   In plain clothes and off duty I carried a Glock 27.  Now that I’m retired I carry a Glock 43 with two spare mags most of the time.  If I know I’m going into higher risk area or around guys on the job I carry my Glock 27 or Glock 22.   If I’m in the lowest threat situation I might carry my Glock 42 with two spare mags.


I carried at least 20 rounds total for my Glock 27, 9+1 and one 10 round spare.

Glock 43 6 or 7+1 (factory or ETS mag) plus two spare 7 round mags 21 or 22 rounds 9 MM.

Glock 42 7+1 (ETS mag) plus two spare 7 round mags or 22 rounds in 380.

If I travel very far from home I usually have a 16” 5.56/223 carbine in the car.

Find me a .380 load that will penatrate and expand as well as a 9mm hst, gd, etc

There are a couple of 380 loads that expand to 0.5 (which is about average for 9mm) and meet the FBI 12-18" pen standard.

But, since bullet diameter doesn't really matter (that's the 9mm argument against 40 and 45, right?) and only CNS/vital hits count, the ability to carry more rounds is the primary factor in an SD pistol.

Right?

The Bersa is a double stack handgun, to the grip width is substantially thicker then the Shield.

Specs:
6.6" long
4.9" tall
1.35" thick
20.5 oz's

The M&P compact (12+1 9mm) is just as, if not more, concealable.

M&P Compact (12+1 9mm)
6.7" long
4.3" tall
1.18" thick
24.7 oz's

Youtube video explaining 3 rounds that meet FBI standards in .380

I sometimes carry an LCP with Fiocci XTPs

There are several .380 rounds that meet the FBI specs, check out the Shooting The Bull Ammo Quest . 380 series on YouTube.

Caliber nonsense aside there is always the “what if” argument with carrying a gun. What if there is more than one threat, what if they are high etc... There is plenty of evidence buried in the ground that proves the lethality of .380. There is plenty of evidence that .22 can and has killed people too and  the idea of a 1 shot kill in a self defense situation is nearly a myth. If we felt a need to be able to incapacitate a threat in 1 shot we would be carrying rifles and not pistols.

What it shakes down to is what are you personally comfortable with? 7+1 of 9mm or 15+1 of .380? 8+1 of .45 or 15+1 of 9mm? It’s all relative. What can you shoot better and what are you willing to lug around with you every day? A .380 on your hip will always out perform a 9mm in your safe...

Would that logic apply to EDC-ing a 12+1 CZ 82 in 9mm Makarov? ... especially with the Mak's "huge" bullet diameter of .365 versus the standard .355 of the Mini-meter.

Consistently? Through all the barriers, not just bare gel?

I'd be ok with that in certain guns. The g43 or beretta 84/85

And if you choose, your reload can be 17 rounds.

LOL, I had to laugh because this is what I was thinking.   But there is the argument of felt recoil.  I don't know if the Bersa would allow quicker follow up shots or not.  Because that's a big part of the argument for 9mm.  More rounds, plus faster.  Isn't it?  

But I'm with you.  If you use the same argument for capacity in the 9mm vs 45, then the Bersa should win.  My guess cuz it's heavier, it might recoil less?  I've never shot one though.  And some people say 380 in blowback guns is brutal.  I forget how the Bersa works.

I have a Bersa double stack (not the thunder), my son has the shield, shot them both side by side. The Shield's narrower grip does sting a little, but the bersa's recoil is worse overall.

I don't believe the Thunder is any smaller than a S&W M&Pc , G26 or many other sub compacts. I know it's not any lighter... not with 15 rounds in the mag.

The Thunder is also hammer fired DA/SA, that's another manual of arms to contend with.

I like the Bersa, it's a fun gun to shoot, but if I were only looking to add capacity in a small carry gun, I'd probably look at one of the other 9mm sub guns... or just carry extra mags for the shield.

What are solid, critical thinking reasons to need more than 7 rounds?

S&W Shield is a pretty good gun.  Bersa .380 sucks.  .380 sucks compared to 9mm.

Islamic radicalism is on the rise in the US?   Ask the dudes in Israel if they feel like 7 rounds is enough.  I don't know if that's a solid reason or not.  But there are enough nutjobs in the US, obviously and they may come in packs at times.

Because 7 RDS may not be enough to stop a threat. There may also be more than one threat.

I can't but help feel like the controllability of a .380 pistol should be in this discussion.  I find it far easier to make accurate second and third shots on a target with a PPK or, better still, a Beretta 85.  This has got to count for something, but is among the most hard to quantify qualities of these two .380s.  In any event, I feel they are both safe, dependable and accurate ways to defend myself.  In my AO, they will probably suffice nicely.

Whatever gives you the most confidence.

I'm so glad I live in a place where I only have to worry about carjackers, armed robbers, and mayhem.  If I have to gear up for gangs of Islamic Terrorists with my concealed carry it's going to take some thought.

Another reason to keep an AR, or five, stashed somewhere.

You don't have military bases, Christmas parties, road race, or movie theaters in NM?

The same guys telling you to take the 7 shot 9mm are the same guys who choose a high capacity 9mm over a .45 because more rounds are better.



My verdict is go with the 7 shot 9mm, and if possible, step up to .45. If you are capacity limited, roll something that penetrates barriers well, has as much weight as you can get, and expands as much as possible, since it's the first few shots that are going to make the biggest difference. Winchester Ranger .45 can expand over an inch. IMO, the Shield 45, or the Glock 36 is a slick choice. I'd even consider a Colt Defender.

Yeah, I mean I was trying to give you some answers that were over and above the normal nutjobs in the world, since that didn't seem to suffice for ya.  But maybe I didn't understand the question.

There is always some kind of trade off.  I'm sure if I knew I was going into a gunfight I would choose the gun that I shoot the best with the mostest ammo.  But, I don't always carry that gun.

Always appreciate the things you have to say JJREA.. just being a little snarky for fun.  No offense intended.

When it comes to capacity I'm pretty comfortable with 5 rounds in a J frame for a concealed carry because I don't see a scenario given the places I go of needing more than that.  Of course, given a good belt and holster I usually carry a compact 9mm because it's a bit lighter than a 1911.  Now if we're talking what goes in your vehicle or at home, that's different.

Military Bases:  You can't carry on a military base and you had better take that seriously because they won't tolerate it.  You're not even supposed to have anything in your car and it's a felony if they decide to search it (unlikely on any of the bases I've worked on).

Road rage:  Almost always takes two.  I don't get involved in these.  If someone can't let it go I'll drive to a police station.  If you want to plan on the incredibly unlikely scenario of being run off the road and trapped with no path to get away on foot then you should have an M4 in your car.  Or, if they are picking on your wife because they're one of those creepy cowards that like to bully women on the freeway, you tell her to drive to where you are and you have an M4 to greet them.  In any case, my concealed carry and my vehicle gun are not the same because weight and on body concealment are no longer in the equation.   Or even the real answer which is I own a silly number of guns and might as well put extra firepower in the car whether I need it or not.

Movie theaters?  Christmas parties?  Hmm.. the ones around here haven't really left me feeling a sense of impending doom from multiple attackers.  But really, who isn't a little suspicious of the fat guy charismatic leader surrounded by 'elves'.. something not right there.

You know.....  I've been thinking about carrying my M4 in the car more.  Or something......  

Thank you for the compliments.  

So what do you carry in your car?

All the time there's a full size 9mm (Sig 226) with a bunch of extra magazines because the fancy zipper pistol pouch has slots for them and you have fill the slots, right?

The other is more tucked away but it's a break down Chiappa Alaskan (1892 winchester lever action type rifle) in 44 magnum.  Fits in with the spare in a hatchback.

I also sometimes carry an M4 in a discrete case when I'm traveling because, and without any good reason whatsoever, I'm a little paranoid on the open road away from home.

Tell that to the people in Fort Hood, San Bernardino, Boston(road race, not road rage), or Aurora. I bet none of them felt any impending doom when terrorists attacked.

if you wanna carry 15 rounds, buy a quality belt and holster designed for CCW and carry a real defensive caliber.

that floor is 9mm luger not 380


Glock19

CZ P-07

M&P

etc.

When hell comes knocking, you won't want a 380


JMHO

Why would you change what you carry based on something that has such a tiny and insignificant chance of happening?  Mathematically there is virtually zero chance you'll be in a mass shooting of any kind.  Hence my opinion on carrying a good gun with 7 effective rounds rather than a crappy gun with 15 marginal rounds.  

When it comes to figuring out what you'll carry and how you'll carry it, reality is a good thing.  Look at the real world you live in and identify the real threats.  That will help you be ready for and have a plan for things that actually can happen.

Why do you carry a gun at all when the need to use it is so statistically tiny that mathematicaly there's virtually zero chance for you to use it?

My point is not to live in fear but carrying g a good, solid gun, that's easy to shoot well, fast, and accurate isn't hard. I have primarily switched to 9rds in my  full sized1911 with a 10 Rd reload.

Most people would scoff at your statement about carjackers and mayhem, just like your scoffing at my Christmas party analogy. It's not difficult to be just a little better prepared.

Because I can point directly to local crime statistics and show a non-zero probability of car jacking, armed robbery, and mayhem.  It seems many of my friends and neighbors think too much about terrorism.  I suspect some think too much about zombie apocalypse.  We need to think about and plan for what's going on in our own environment when it comes to self defense using a concealed carry.  If you work in Albuquerque in the south valley, a full size 9mm with reloads is probably not a bad idea.  If you are in the burbs in a Idaho, a S&W j frame i is fine.  For those that have no idea where to find the data, just pull up crime stats on Google.  Most people can carry a single stack without concern and if that makes them carry every day because of weight and concealment, the world is a better place.


As for a 1911, the only reason I don't carry mine as an EDC is the weight which is probably lame because I do shoot it the best and 45acp is as good as it gets.

I don't know, it's all .  You just have to do your best.  One day there was a report of an escaped convict running around our area.  And we live in a pretty nice area.  So....  5 rounds would probably be enough to deal with a bad guy, but you know, you just might miss.  So then I wore my M9 that day.  IWB.  And I got a back ache from it.  LOL.  Getting old I guess.  An OWB holster might've helped that situation.  

For some reason the J frame just feels super right.  But I'm always wanting more rounds.  So my quest isn't over.  I may end up with a G43 eventually.  But I also like DA/SA or DAO.  Just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, safety wise.   But I have carried strikers.  

I had a few things happen to me lately that bug the crap out of me when it comes to this stuff.  Last shooting session I was wearing my G26 AIWB.  Well I shot my AR prone a few times and 2 times I got up the mag was free.  Laying down on the gun somehow depressed the mag release.    And one other time I was wearing my HiPower in an OWB Galco holster and the mag button got depressed somehow.  I don't know how it's happening, but it freaking happened 3x in the matter of 2 weeks and it's like, WTF?  Whenever I carry an auto I carry a spare mag, but it's like, geeeeez.  I mean what if you were rolling around on the ground with someone and boom your mag pops out and you have 1 round in your gun.   And then there's the fact that an auto won't fire out of battery.  Of course someone could grab the cylinder on a revolver too.  

I just come to the conclusion there is no perfect gun.  And carrying something is better than nothing.   I do like the idea of having 2 at a time because of some of these things that can happen.  

And spook, I'm just asking respectfully, if you're fine with a J frame mentally, why even carry a bigger gun in the car?

And in my mind, I don't sit there and obsess about an apocalypse, but it seems to me like weird crap is on the rise.  Like things just keep getting worse, so, what has happened in the past, isn't a good indicator of what might happen next.

aside from the caliber debate, one is a S&W with a good reputation the othet is a Bersa with a lesser reputation.
Plus isnt the Bersa a blowback operated gun? Sorry, but no thanks.
If you want more ammo Id wager that an m&p9c or m&p 2.0 compact (or g19) would be the same size as that bersa in terms of carry, weigh less, and shoot more comfortably.