User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 5:04:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Errrm - NO.
Watch how top action shooters manipulate the trigger... many lift their finger off the trigger after EVERY SHOT. Your "Combat Technique" is a recipe for trigger freeze. Tactile reset is a worthless marketing feature - I shoot too fast to even notice. ETA: Thanks - I never got to run up the BS flag before 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 5:06:01 PM EDT
[#2]
No just NO! STOP! Please stop!
Are you advocating staging the trigger and riding the reset? How many defensive shoots have you been in? How much combat have you seen? Terrible terrible advice! Spend some time taking some pistol training courses, shoot some competitions with your carry gun(do not do it for speed or perfect times do it like it was real life), shoot off a timer riding the reset is slow and ineffective, and man I could go on but the DERP is so strong with that post WOW just WOW! |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 5:13:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Errrm - no. Watch how top action shooters manipulate the trigger... many lift their finger off the trigger after EVERY SHOT. Tactile reset? Worthless IMHO. Don't over think trigger manipulation OP. Here's how you pull a trigger... however the fuck you want and is appropriate for the situation youre in as long as you pull it straight to the rear without manipulating your sights. Anyone who makes claims as to how to pull, reset, and what type of trigger is best for self defense has absolutely zero credibility. OP, I'm curious as to your credentials to make the statements you made. Or did you just regurgitate info from another horrible firearms instructor? Edit: OP changed his post. Do whatever you want OP just don't try to make comments like you're a firearms instructor when you have no idea what you're talking about. If that works for you then do it but don't try to tell people your way is the best and/or only way. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 5:32:14 PM EDT
[#4]
OP
 , this thread has the makings for Lulz
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 5:43:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Who made you my trigger manipulation supervisor? I disagree with you, along with pretty much anyone else who knows anything.
But hey, I'm man enough to admit that I've never been in a gunfight, so I'm not exactly certified to preach about 'combat' anything. That's why I don't. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 6:58:23 PM EDT
[#6]
So that is two threads you telling us just how much more awesome the P10 is than every other pistol.
Man this thread is going to get good. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 7:04:36 PM EDT
[#7]
So, we're using 3 new/relatively new shooters to determine which gun has the best trigger? What is their frame of reference?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 8:32:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Wrong, slap it as fast as you can, because the constant practice of other good fundamentals will keep it on target.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 8:49:46 PM EDT
[#9]
OP HERE:
I'm not talking about how to SHOOT in a defensive/combat situation. I'm talking purely about how to determine how good the trigger is on the gun. And yes Ideally you want to make the most of a short reset. I have modified the subject and replaced the word "USE" with "TEST". But please enlighten me as to how you determine the quality of a trigger on a gun? And how you compare one trigger to another? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 8:55:50 PM EDT
[#10]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 9:04:00 PM EDT
[#11]
I only notice the "quality" of a trigger if I'm dry firing or slow fire target shooting. Once I shoot a few rounds at the range and the adrenaline starts flowing, I don't really pay attention to it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 9:12:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP HERE: I'm not talking about how to SHOOT in a defensive/combat situation. I'm talking purely about how to determine how good the trigger is on the gun. And yes Ideally you want to make the most of a short reset. I have modified the subject and replaced the word "USE" with "TEST". But please enlighten me as to how you determine the quality of a trigger on a gun? And how you compare one trigger to another? " Ideally you want to make the most of a short reset." Which is done by not slowing your fingers down looking for a reset point. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 9:18:08 PM EDT
[#13]
If you do not have experience or credentials on the subject, do not advocate techniques that will absolutely not work. ETA: Since you edited out all of your original post, mine is no longer relevant to your thread. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 9:33:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm a range instructor at work. This is the extent of my expertise on the topic. I can say with certainty, your original post, is absolutely wrong. If you are stopping to feel the staging of the trigger, or the reset, during combative defensive shooting, you are shooting too slow, and are a dead person. If you do not have experience or credentials on the subject, do not advocate techniques that will absolutely not work. I'm curious how do you test the quality of a trigger? Once we come to agreement on this, I will bring in the material from the original post back in. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 9:40:33 PM EDT
[#15]
The only time I may shoot the reset is when I'm firing slow for accuracy. Other than that, it's flip and press. Can you feel the reset during recoil or are you waiting until the sights are back on target?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 9:42:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's fluid. There is no stopping to feel. The reset is tactile. You feel the reset. No reason to let the trigger go further forward. Pull back. Repeat. I'm curious how do you test the quality of a trigger? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm a range instructor at work. This is the extent of my expertise on the topic. I can say with certainty, your original post, is absolutely wrong. If you are stopping to feel the staging of the trigger, or the reset, during combative defensive shooting, you are shooting too slow, and are a dead person. If you do not have experience or credentials on the subject, do not advocate techniques that will absolutely not work. I'm curious how do you test the quality of a trigger? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 10:05:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's fluid. There is no stopping to feel. The reset is tactile. You feel the reset. No reason to let the trigger go further forward. Pull back. Repeat. I'm curious how do you test the quality of a trigger? Once we come to agreement on this, I will bring in the material from the original post back in. I have triggers on some pistols I own that are 7# double action but they are so smooth the weight is an after thought. Congratulations you found a pistol that you like and fits your template of a quality trigger but guess what it really is not that special seeing how so many new handguns have beautiful or good triggers out of the box or after a few hundred rounds of cycling. Lastly if you are shooting at speed you will not be feeling the tactile reset and on a striker pistol will not be feeling the different stages of the trigger. When you press the trigger it should be a smooth continuous single motion straight through and as the pistol cycles your finger should already be traveling forward and most likely you will pass the tactile click or riding the reset. The only time I ever ride the reset is when I am shooting a pistol at a significant distance that the trigger press take more time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 1:50:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
How do you do it ? Ends up looking like this. (I'm an average shooter among the people I shoot with, so take it with a grain of salt) |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 6:43:49 AM EDT
[#19]
This thread is stupid. This is like saying what car is the best daily driver based on the max RPM of the engine - incredibly myopic.
Everyone knows the skill lies in the shooter and not the equipment, assuming the equipment meets some minimum standards. With Defensive pistols (9mm or larger), I think they are: - Accurate (this includes having a serviceable trigger, sights, and barrel ... I'm ok if the gun is mechanically capable of doing 4 inches at 25 yards, although most guns will do better) - Reliable (goes bang when you pull the trigger) - Safe (doesn't go bang when you don't pull the trigger ... ahem, P320) - Reasonable weight (less than or around 2 lbs loaded ... +/- 32 oz) - Ergonomic (usable controls, it doesn't have to be sculpted to my hand) Noteworthy but not necessarily critical: Aftermarket support/commonality, cost, capacity Any competent shooter should be able to pick up a pistol that meets these standards and shoot them pretty much to the same effect on a timer. Good shooters don't need a 2 lb trigger, just a serviceable trigger. In my experience - people who fawn over super light triggers in defensive guns sometimes have poor trigger control in general and require a light trigger to bandaid their skill gap. For me - the pistol that meets all these criteria with the best aftermarket support and cost is the G19, so I have a multiples (GSSF when they were $398 + tax). It doesn't have the BEST ergos - but I think the trade off is worth it given the performance in other areas. That said, I'd be fine having anything that met the above including: M&P, VP9, PPQ, P10C, CZ P10C, etc. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 11:07:03 AM EDT
[#20]
I care about reset only to the extent that the gun actually does reset.
Beyond that, reset is irrelevant to actually firing the shot. It has exactly nothing to do with sending the round where we intend it to go. In fact, as I was working with a shooter this Sunday, we discovered that it can have a deleterious effect on trigger control. During Bill Drills, he was riding reset and focused on feeling the reset point; he was consciously trying to maintain contact between his finger and the trigger shoe through the whole firing cycle. As soon as he felt reset, he was yanking the trigger again. I had him take his finger all the way off the trigger during recoil and instead place his focus on pressing the trigger straight back while he observed the behavior of the sights. The result was taking 3 tenths off his times and better hits. You are also more likely to induce "trigger freeze" if you ride reset; this results from misjudging the reset point or short-stroking the trigger trying to go fast. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 12:11:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only time I may shoot the reset is when I'm firing slow for accuracy. Other than that, it's flip and press. Can you feel the reset during recoil or are you waiting until the sights are back on target? The Browning Hi-Power does not have a Tactile reset. Which is always a little weird for me. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 12:23:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I yard the fuck out of the trigger as fast as I can, then flick my finger forward as hard as possible like I'm trying to flick a booger off. Ends up looking like this. (I'm an average shooter among the people I shoot with, so take it with a grain of salt)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD6fIsi6w3gMy thinking is the ultimate pistol trigger is a "quality" Single Action Trigger. But the Single Action trigger system carries some undesirable features like a manual safety and the necessity to carry cocked and locked. So a "good" or "awesome" DA/SA or striker-fired trigger is one that comes as close as possible to emulating a quality single action trigger? Is this something the majority of us could agree upon? I know it is ARFCOM, but miracles do happen. Plus most shooters I know would agree with this statement. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 12:50:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess we are talking about two different things. I am trying to establish a baseline way to TEST how good a trigger on a gun is. Here you are doing a rapid fire drill. Which is a fine thing to do in and of itself. I'm just not sure if that is a good way to determine how good one trigger is compared to another. My thinking is the ultimate pistol trigger is a "quality" Single Action Trigger. But the Single Action trigger system carries some undesirable features like a manual safety and the necessity to carry cocked and locked. So a "good" or "awesome" DA/SA or striker-fired trigger is one that comes as close as possible to emulating a quality single action trigger? Is this something the majority of us could agree upon? I know it is ARFCOM, but miracles do happen. Plus most shooters I know would agree with this statement. Most shooters are saying otherwise in your thread. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 12:55:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess we are talking about two different things. I am trying to establish a baseline way to TEST how good a trigger on a gun is. Here you are doing a rapid fire drill. Which is a fine thing to do in and of itself. I'm just not sure if that is a good way to determine how good one trigger is compared to another. My thinking is the ultimate pistol trigger is a "quality" Single Action Trigger. But the Single Action trigger system carries some undesirable features like a manual safety and the necessity to carry cocked and locked. So a "good" or "awesome" DA/SA or striker-fired trigger is one that comes as close as possible to emulating a quality single action trigger? Is this something the majority of us could agree upon? I know it is ARFCOM, but miracles do happen. Plus most shooters I know would agree with this statement. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I yard the fuck out of the trigger as fast as I can, then flick my finger forward as hard as possible like I'm trying to flick a booger off. Ends up looking like this. (I'm an average shooter among the people I shoot with, so take it with a grain of salt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD6fIsi6w3gMy thinking is the ultimate pistol trigger is a "quality" Single Action Trigger. But the Single Action trigger system carries some undesirable features like a manual safety and the necessity to carry cocked and locked. So a "good" or "awesome" DA/SA or striker-fired trigger is one that comes as close as possible to emulating a quality single action trigger? Is this something the majority of us could agree upon? I know it is ARFCOM, but miracles do happen. Plus most shooters I know would agree with this statement. Everything you're talking about is classic attempt to get around putting the time in practicing and dry firing. Why are you looking for shortcuts? ". Plus most shooters I know would agree with this statement." Most shooters are garbage and don't train. It's why I surround myself with GM's. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 5:39:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Here's how I do it Step 1 - Put your finger on the trigger and take the slack out of the trigger. Pause here, this is the point before the trigger breaks and fires the gun. Step 2 - Pull the trigger so it breaks and fires the gun. Step 3 - After firing the round, let the trigger come forward until it resets...I STOP...I don't let the trigger go much further forward. Step 4 - REPEAT Steps 2 through 3 It's fluid. There is no stopping to find the rest. The reset is tactile. You feel the reset. No reason to let the trigger go further forward. Pull back. Repeat. How do you do it ? Quoted for posterity in case you edit your OP again. The part highlighted above is the problem. Under high-stress situations where you are trying to make multiple fast hits on close-in targets (the most likely self-defense handgun scenario), your technique will result in potentially-fatal trigger freeze. Your advise could get someone killed. I suggest you stop digging. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 5:48:58 PM EDT
[#26]
IDK. I just try not to move the gun when I break the trigger
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 7:56:51 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted for posterity in case you edit your OP again. The part highlighted above is the problem. Under high-stress situations where you are trying to make multiple fast hits on close-in targets (the most likely self-defense handgun scenario), your technique will result in potentially-fatal trigger freeze. Your advise could get someone killed. I suggest you stop digging. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here's how I do it Step 1 - Put your finger on the trigger and take the slack out of the trigger. Pause here, this is the point before the trigger breaks and fires the gun. Step 2 - Pull the trigger so it breaks and fires the gun. Step 3 - After firing the round, let the trigger come forward until it resets...I STOP...I don't let the trigger go much further forward. Step 4 - REPEAT Steps 2 through 3 It's fluid. There is no stopping to find the rest. The reset is tactile. You feel the reset. No reason to let the trigger go further forward. Pull back. Repeat. How do you do it ? Quoted for posterity in case you edit your OP again. The part highlighted above is the problem. Under high-stress situations where you are trying to make multiple fast hits on close-in targets (the most likely self-defense handgun scenario), your technique will result in potentially-fatal trigger freeze. Your advise could get someone killed. I suggest you stop digging. That being said, in training, I have experienced first hand a "dead" trigger. Shooting my M&P Shield, attempting rapid defensive fire, resulted in short stroking the trigger, and having to stop, come all the way off until it reset and resume shooting. Probably only took a second for it all to happen, but I can easily see how it could have cost a gunfight, and felt like a millennium while it was happening. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/10/2017 1:39:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Here's how I do it Step 1 - Put your finger on the trigger and take the slack out of the trigger. Pause here, this is the point before the trigger breaks and fires the gun. Step 2 - Pull the trigger so it breaks and fires the gun. Step 3 - After firing the round, let the trigger come forward until it resets...I STOP...I don't let the trigger go much further forward. Step 4 - REPEAT Steps 2 through 3 It's fluid. There is no stopping to find the rest. The reset is tactile. You feel the reset. No reason to let the trigger go further forward. Pull back. Repeat. How do you do it ? This is a suitable technique for teaching new beginners the fundamentals of what is going in with a pistol trigger, and I find this technique properly applied is a great way to get new shooters to tighten up their groups in a fundamentals course. However, at the advanced levels, this technique leaves a lot to be desired. Bruce Gray's Practical Fundamentals course illustrates why this is true. I may be paraphrasing a bit, but this is what I got out of that course. With lots of practice you will be much faster doing what some described as the controlled slap. Letting the trigger finger rapidly reset, then inputting enough trigger squeeze to get the pistol just shy of breaking the mechanical engagement (eg 4.8 lbs of a 5.0 lb break), verifying the acquisition of the correct sight picture in relation to the target and then inputting another .22 pounds of pressure ( numbers are for illustrative purposes only). Your trigger reset and application of the initial squeeze (takeup) should all happen during the time it takes for the slide to cycle, such that the instant your front sight is where it needs to be you are ready to press the trigger again. This technique requires an incredible amount of practice to master, and does not lend itself well to the gun of the week crowd, in my experience. A ton of dry practice as well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/11/2017 4:39:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Browning Hi-Power does not have a Tactile reset. Which is always a little weird for me. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/11/2017 8:57:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have got to be kidding! The BHP has one of the sharpest resets out there. This may explain part of your problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Browning Hi-Power does not have a Tactile reset. Which is always a little weird for me. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/12/2017 3:56:09 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have got to be kidding! The BHP has one of the sharpest resets out there. This may explain part of your problem. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/12/2017 9:01:52 AM EDT
[#32]
does gun go bang when trigger pulled? yes/ pass, no/ sell the bersa to the ira.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/12/2017 9:04:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That wasn't the case with mine. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2017 3:53:22 AM EDT
[#34]
I had a "learning" experience on a range one time a couple of years ago. I'm used to the awesome trigger in my 1911 and went to an outside range one time with a friend, which I never do because I usually shoot on family property. Anyway, a guy a couple of lanes over had an HK45 and he let me shoot it. I'd never shot one before so I was excited and I loved it and shot it great BUT I kept thinking the gun was malfunctioning because I'd shoot a round then go to fire another round and nothing...long story short, I was used to the short reset of my 1911 and wasn't allowing the trigger to reset on the HK. Quick lesson after the first couple of rounds but it made me think...
Be adaptable. Nothing wrong with preference, but take each gun for what it is. This thread made me think of that experience and how "if" I was in a situation and some guy slid me his hk45 that I'd never shot before and I had to use it in self defense, I'd get one shot off and maybe be dead with my "1911" mindset. It really made me rethink my target practice, trigger reset mentality vs "real world". |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2017 5:28:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Learn what the Gunsite "surprise compressed break" is about.
BY trying to manipulate a trigger in this way you are running the risk of things NOT going as planned in a crisis. Speed comes from being smooth and not wasting motion. Instead of the speed you are seeking you will have nothing. A trigger that is not reset when you need another shot NOW. KISS becomes really important when lives are on the line. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2017 2:36:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have got to be kidding! The BHP has one of the sharpest resets out there. This may explain part of your problem. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/22/2017 12:00:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is stupid. This is like saying what car is the best daily driver based on the max RPM of the engine - incredibly myopic. Everyone knows the skill lies in the shooter and not the equipment, assuming the equipment meets some minimum standards. With Defensive pistols (9mm or larger), I think they are: - Accurate (this includes having a serviceable trigger, sights, and barrel ... I'm ok if the gun is mechanically capable of doing 4 inches at 25 yards, although most guns will do better) - Reliable (goes bang when you pull the trigger) - Safe (doesn't go bang when you don't pull the trigger ... ahem, P320) - Reasonable weight (less than or around 2 lbs loaded ... +/- 32 oz) - Ergonomic (usable controls, it doesn't have to be sculpted to my hand) Noteworthy but not necessarily critical: Aftermarket support/commonality, cost, capacity Any competent shooter should be able to pick up a pistol that meets these standards and shoot them pretty much to the same effect on a timer. Good shooters don't need a 2 lb trigger, just a serviceable trigger. In my experience - people who fawn over super light triggers in defensive guns sometimes have poor trigger control in general and require a light trigger to bandaid their skill gap. For me - the pistol that meets all these criteria with the best aftermarket support and cost is the G19, so I have a multiples (GSSF when they were $398 + tax). It doesn't have the BEST ergos - but I think the trade off is worth it given the performance in other areas. That said, I'd be fine having anything that met the above including: M&P, VP9, PPQ, P10C, CZ P10C, etc. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
