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Posted: 9/14/2017 5:13:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9mm and 38 SPL are fine for everyday carry. FBI was out hunting dangerous men. They were armed like they were going to the grocery store late at night. They needed to take a lesson from the great lawman Frank Hamer. Make sure you bring enough gun to the fight. http://texashideout.tripod.com/fhrem.jpg |
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Posted: 9/14/2017 6:45:09 PM EDT
[#2]
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WTF is that thing? It was the rifle Texas lawman Frank Hamer used to kill Bonnie and Clyde. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 4:32:01 PM EDT
[#3]
I don't care. I'm sure either round will do well if the shooter hits the target.
I just bought a LE trade in Sig 226 for $340. It's my first .40. I think it will be around long enough for me to stack deep. 
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Posted: 9/25/2017 5:13:03 PM EDT
[#4]
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It's funny how one guy will say shotguns suck but then there are known trainers that promote them. My head just spins when I keep an ear to the ground of what everyone says. Albeit I don't see a LOT of guys promoting shotguns. Everything has upsides and downsides. I think shotguns have some upsides. I personally prefer lighter recoiling guns. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 8:58:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't care. I'm sure either round will do well if the shooter hits the target. I just bought a LE trade in Sig 226 for $340. It's my first .40. I think it will be around long enough for me to stack deep. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 9:06:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 9:13:49 PM EDT
[#7]
I like the fact that the police is going back to 9.
It allowed me to pick up a p226 for 400 from my lgs. It has also allowed me to pickup 1500 rounds of 40 for 8 bucks a box from the same shop on sale. I ended up finding a 357 sig barrel for 90 and sig ran the 9mm cal x change kit for 198. Three calibers, one gun and a lot of ammo = screaming bank account. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 9:19:06 PM EDT
[#8]
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Why not a 10mm then? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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40 haters should put their money where their mouth is... If it's all about shot placement, capacity and avoiding "wrist fatigue" then 22 is the obvious choice for your HD/SD needs. Sell your 9's and carry a 22. PS- ballistic performance is better with 40 because physics  while I do agree that capacity matters, there are plenty of standard and above standard clipazines to help you out. 20 rounds in my G35 is adequate... |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 12:04:03 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like the fact that the police is going back to 9. It allowed me to pick up a p226 for 400 from my lgs. It has also allowed me to pickup 1500 rounds of 40 for 8 bucks a box from the same shop on sale. I ended up finding a 357 sig barrel for 90 and sig ran the 9mm cal x change kit for 198. Three calibers, one gun and a lot of ammo = screaming bank account. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 11:06:57 AM EDT
[#10]
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Ammunition availability and pricing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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40 haters should put their money where their mouth is... If it's all about shot placement, capacity and avoiding "wrist fatigue" then 22 is the obvious choice for your HD/SD needs. Sell your 9's and carry a 22. PS- ballistic performance is better with 40 because physics while I do agree that capacity matters, there are plenty of standard and above standard clipazines to help you out. 20 rounds in my G35 is adequate... |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 11:09:54 AM EDT
[#11]
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Deduction: 40 is "harder hitting". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A friend in LE attended a briefing given by a federal agency recently, they advised that their Glocks in 40 need to be rebuilt three times as often by round count as their 9mm Glocks and that they rebuild includes more parts. They switched to 9mm recently. From the condition of several Glock 22 LE trade-ins I've seen...I would say NOT EVEN CLOSE. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 12:09:43 PM EDT
[#12]
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I'm not LE or anything, but are officers actually shooting enough to require a Glock to be rebuilt? From the condition of several Glock 22 LE trade-ins I've seen...I would say NOT EVEN CLOSE. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 1:05:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on the agency, the officers role and interests, etc. I know of an officer here on the site who fired something like 30,000 rounds in a year. I know of another who in his career as a patrolman and now full time SWAT officer has deadlined 3-4 G22s permanently. He wants a 9mm. I wonder if the newer generation Glock .40's are holding up better after the recoil spring change? |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 5:23:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting, but I suspect those round counts are far from average? I wonder if the newer generation Glock .40's are holding up better after the recoil spring change? |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 5:30:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have at least 12 cop friends and none of them shoot more than a few hundred a year. thats why i buy trade ins. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Interesting, but I suspect those round counts are far from average? I wonder if the newer generation Glock .40's are holding up better after the recoil spring change? There are probably several good reasons for a police department to switch from .40 S&W to 9mm, but I don't imagine, "rebuilding the guns after X number of thousands of rounds" is very high on the list.
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Posted: 9/27/2017 12:17:08 AM EDT
[#16]
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Where did you find one that cheap? Is it a DAK? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't care. I'm sure either round will do well if the shooter hits the target. I just bought a LE trade in Sig 226 for $340. It's my first .40. I think it will be around long enough for me to stack deep. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 9:44:02 AM EDT
[#17]
I would have to conclude that the FBI switched because the Transgender and female agents can't shoot a 40.
When Cooper et al started designing competitive action shooting the used the old axiom "use a caliber that starts with a 4" so when the 40 s&w arrived, the gamers adopted it to add capacity and easily make power factor using factory ammo. It will continue to dominate there. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 9:47:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting, but I suspect those round counts are far from average? I wonder if the newer generation Glock .40's are holding up better after the recoil spring change? |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 9:50:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I think this is more the norm. There are probably several good reasons for a police department to switch from .40 S&W to 9mm, but I don't imagine, "rebuilding the guns after X number of thousands of rounds" is very high on the list. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 9:54:39 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would have to conclude that the FBI switched because the Transgender and female agents can't shoot a 40. When Cooper et al started designing competitive action shooting the used the old axiom "use a caliber that starts with a 4" so when the 40 s&w arrived, the gamers adopted it to add capacity and easily make power factor using factory ammo. It will continue to dominate there. A lot of grown men shoot 9mm better. At least females will admit when they are tired and their hands are sore. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 10:44:49 AM EDT
[#21]
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My friends agency has five times as many officers on the full time tactical team than the median agency has officers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah, I think this is more the norm. There are probably several good reasons for a police department to switch from .40 S&W to 9mm, but I don't imagine, "rebuilding the guns after X number of thousands of rounds" is very high on the list. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 11:48:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We understand that... but your buds agency isn't the norm. The systemic lack of tracking you discuss is a bug for the country even if it is a feature for people who want to buy cheap guns. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 1:27:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryThe systemic lack of tracking you discuss is a bug for the country even if it is a feature for people who want to buy cheap guns. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 3:32:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What? |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 5:10:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What? |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 5:14:44 PM EDT
[#26]
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no comprende your statement. can you explain in 8th grade terminology. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 7:14:07 PM EDT
[#27]
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I was griping that poor training makes for lightly used guns at a deal, but it's bad policy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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no comprende your statement. can you explain in 8th grade terminology. NONE of them shoot enough. ONE of them HATES guns. Lets put it to you this way, if I needed to assemble a fire team, I wouldn't ask any of them, except for the US Marshal because he trains alot. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 7:42:46 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm not surprised particularly given your location.
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Posted: 9/27/2017 7:55:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not surprised particularly given your location. are cops different in your AO? |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 8:31:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what does my location have to do with it? are cops different in your AO? |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 5:14:34 AM EDT
[#31]
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So, you're saying it will have a dip in popularity for a few years, followed by a massive resurgence and become more popular than it ever was prior? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 7:48:38 AM EDT
[#32]
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?????? massive resurgence ???????? Please ...... the 7.62 x 54r had 100 times more of a "resurgence" than .41 or 10mm combined....... why ?? because the rifles were $79.00. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm In recent years even Federal added a spicy 180gn 10mm "hunting" load (@ something like 1280fps), ... which is eye-opening considering that the Big Three "mainstream" ammo-makers (and maybe Hornady as well) were all responsible for diluting the 10mm cartridge from its former high-performance self in the late '80s/early '90s to simply being a ".40" with a longer case by the mid-'90s. |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 7:59:10 AM EDT
[#33]
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Lots are gun guys here compared with either places. Run into them all the time at gun stores or classes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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what does my location have to do with it? are cops different in your AO? |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 10:07:43 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are these law enforcement guys you're talking about in this thread the same guys giving you information in the Vegas thread in g d? |
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Posted: 10/9/2017 9:02:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 10mm AUTO - meaning real 10mm ammo, not the watered-down shit - has been resurgent since at least the early 2000s after Double Tap came on line, along with a few others back then, like the old Texas Ammo Co. and Reed's Research. Cor-Bon had a couple of hot loads, as did Georgia Arms. Then Buffalo Bore showed up making full-throttle 10mm ... and later Underwood's. In recent years even Federal added a spicy 180gn 10mm "hunting" load (@ something like 1280fps), ... which is eye-opening considering that the Big Three "mainstream" ammo-makers (and maybe Hornady as well) were all responsible for diluting the 10mm cartridge from its former high-performance self in the late '80s/early '90s to simply being a ".40" with a longer case by the mid-'90s. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm In recent years even Federal added a spicy 180gn 10mm "hunting" load (@ something like 1280fps), ... which is eye-opening considering that the Big Three "mainstream" ammo-makers (and maybe Hornady as well) were all responsible for diluting the 10mm cartridge from its former high-performance self in the late '80s/early '90s to simply being a ".40" with a longer case by the mid-'90s. listen.... i own .40, i own 9mm, i have carried both - i hate when people try to church it up -- the numbers are what they are. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 3:53:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wow .... "in recent years" federal added "a" load.. even if they added 5 new loads.... what is that? Seriously WTF is that?? what percentage of their production line are they dedicating for this "massive resurgence" in 10mm.... and the other big production houses ... how many 9mm lines have they shut down to meet this swelling demand??..... get back to me when 9mm lines are being shut down to put 10mm into production...... here is a hint... it will be about the same time 6.8 SPC takes over the 5.56 market..... listen.... i own .40, i own 9mm, i have carried both - i hate when people try to church it up -- the numbers are what they are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm In recent years even Federal added a spicy 180gn 10mm "hunting" load (@ something like 1280fps), ... which is eye-opening considering that the Big Three "mainstream" ammo-makers (and maybe Hornady as well) were all responsible for diluting the 10mm cartridge from its former high-performance self in the late '80s/early '90s to simply being a ".40" with a longer case by the mid-'90s. listen.... i own .40, i own 9mm, i have carried both - i hate when people try to church it up -- the numbers are what they are. Wookay, guy. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 4:09:51 AM EDT
[#37]
If you had to shoot only ball ammunition, which would you choose?
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Posted: 10/10/2017 5:15:12 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you had to shoot only ball ammunition, which would you choose? |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 7:15:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you had to shoot only ball ammunition, which would you choose? I can make 19 .355 inch holes with a flush fit Mec Gar mag +1 out of my M9 before I need to reload, and with that many rounds on tap, you can realistically suppress something briefly in order to maneuver. 19 .35 in holes trumps 8 to 10 .45 inch holes. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 8:10:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, 10mm basically being a dead caliber and coming back to have a thriving and growing (if smaller than most) following, such that major gunmakers like Colt have gotten back into 10mm and major ammo makers are starting to making real 10mm ammo again is nothing to you. Furthermore, 10mm is not anywhere until it starts displacing the most popular pistol cartridge on the planet? Wookay, guy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm In recent years even Federal added a spicy 180gn 10mm "hunting" load (@ something like 1280fps), ... which is eye-opening considering that the Big Three "mainstream" ammo-makers (and maybe Hornady as well) were all responsible for diluting the 10mm cartridge from its former high-performance self in the late '80s/early '90s to simply being a ".40" with a longer case by the mid-'90s. listen.... i own .40, i own 9mm, i have carried both - i hate when people try to church it up -- the numbers are what they are. Wookay, guy. there is a specific reason to compare things to the 9mm or 556 or 22lr or 12 gauge - why.... because they have stood the test of time and have survived ...they did not do this by recalling what they used to do, they did this by continuing to perform a specific function in an economic manner to the satisfaction of its end users....if 10mm had performed so much better, and was such a better round, then it would be the most popular handgun cartridge...but that didnt happen... 10mm and .40 were answers to stagnation of bullet design/ technology, however once people realized they could do almost the same things with 9mm bullets that the 10mm and .40 rounds could do, what answer was decided to be the best..... and 9mm.... i dont understand why people get so emotionally invested in a specific caliber as the answer to all questions... when a caliber comes along that takes 9mm title - i will write the same opinion and put the same labels on 9mm as i have done for 10mm..... Wookay |
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Posted: 10/11/2017 8:10:41 AM EDT
[#41]
I’m not sure how 10mm got dragged into this. There are quite a few things he 10mm does better than the 9mm. Bullet designs have improved, but be realistic.
The reason it’s not more popular than 9mm is many prople don’t need the performance boost and expense of the 10mm. I dont have the numbers but I bet the .22 LR gives the 9mm some competition and it isn’t because bullet technology made it equal. Also, the .45 Gap is a whole different issue so that’s not a fair comparison. |
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Posted: 10/11/2017 9:37:56 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m not sure how 10mm got dragged into this. There are quite a few things he 10mm does better than the 9mm. Bullet designs have improved, but be realistic. The reason it’s not more popular than 9mm is many prople don’t need the performance boost and expense of the 10mm. I dont have the numbers but I bet the .22 LR gives the 9mm some competition and it isn’t because bullet technology made it equal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m not sure how 10mm got dragged into this. There are quite a few things he 10mm does better than the 9mm. Bullet designs have improved, but be realistic. The reason it’s not more popular than 9mm is many prople don’t need the performance boost and expense of the 10mm. I dont have the numbers but I bet the .22 LR gives the 9mm some competition and it isn’t because bullet technology made it equal. While it's true that the current generation of pistol HP bullets have made the 9mm "more street lethal," if you want to put it that way, those same bullets in .40/10mm and .45acp offer a similar level of improved terminal performance in those calibers. It then becomes a debate about relative costs, longevity of the duty weapon, and training time for qualification of personnel, ... the latter being at least partly a function of how weapons-capable are the folks your department or agency employs, and the intensity (or not) of the training regimen to maintain their skill-set with the duty pistol. Also, the .45 Gap is a whole different issue so that’s not a fair comparison. 
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Posted: 10/11/2017 11:17:14 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not only that, but a rising tide lifts all boats, regardless of size or engine capacities, so improvements in projectile-technology (in terms of penetration, expansion, and terminal performance on target) impart cross-benefits up and down the line of the so-called "service calibers": 9mm, .357Sig, .40S&W, 10mm AUTO, and .45acp. While it's true that the current generation of pistol HP bullets have made the 9mm "more street lethal," if you want to put it that way, those same bullets in .40/10mm and .45acp offer a similar level of improved terminal performance in those calibers. It then becomes a debate about relative costs, longevity of the duty weapon, and training time for qualification of personnel, ... the latter being at least partly a function of how weapons-capable are the folks your department or agency employs, and the intensity (or not) of the training regimen to maintain their skill-set with the duty pistol. As was throwing in the .41 revolver magnum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I’m not sure how 10mm got dragged into this. There are quite a few things he 10mm does better than the 9mm. Bullet designs have improved, but be realistic. The reason it’s not more popular than 9mm is many prople don’t need the performance boost and expense of the 10mm. I dont have the numbers but I bet the .22 LR gives the 9mm some competition and it isn’t because bullet technology made it equal. While it's true that the current generation of pistol HP bullets have made the 9mm "more street lethal," if you want to put it that way, those same bullets in .40/10mm and .45acp offer a similar level of improved terminal performance in those calibers. It then becomes a debate about relative costs, longevity of the duty weapon, and training time for qualification of personnel, ... the latter being at least partly a function of how weapons-capable are the folks your department or agency employs, and the intensity (or not) of the training regimen to maintain their skill-set with the duty pistol. Also, the .45 Gap is a whole different issue so that’s not a fair comparison. 12-18" is the standard they all reach. .01 bigger, or 1" deeper within all those standards are insignificant. |
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Posted: 10/11/2017 12:35:09 PM EDT
[#44]
I know everyone that seems to think they're in the know, or maybe are in the know, seems to poo poo energy. But it seems like there would be some benefit in added energy. Maybe this isn't a pertinent analogy, but if you get punched in the face by a 90 pound girl, even if she works out, it's probably going to hurt less than if you get punched in the face by a 180 pound dude that works out. Or maybe better put if either one of them train in boxing. The bigger one is probably going to do more damage to your face and hurt more if they both get a solid shot.
And I know punches aren't bullets but my guess it's going to hurt more if you got hit by a bullet that's bigger and has more energy than a smaller one, given they both penetrated and expand to expected levels. I don't really agree that .01 either way doesn't make a difference. Plus, it's sometimes more than .01". It could be the difference of grazing an artery. Whether hurting more makes a difference is probably just dependent on situation and person shot. Which is partly the issue. That story going around about the cop who shot the perp like 20 some odd times with .45 and after that incident switched to 9mm because he was almost out ammo. We'll never know how 9mm would've performed. Maybe he would've needed more ammo to stop that guy if he was carrying 9mm. Or maybe he would've been dead in 3 shots. But it doesn't seem like it's proof of anything other than that particular dude was hard to stop. That being said, I'm way less anal about bullet performance and all that. I've had 9mm FMJ in my HD guns at time because some of us are just broke. Sometimes raising a family is expensive and we have our own money challenges. Thankfully I do have a better supply of SD ammo at this point. |
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Posted: 10/11/2017 10:29:42 PM EDT
[#45]
I see it as there are four different categories of popularity and therefore ammo availability. The first is available anywhere including places like Wal-Mart. (.357 Mag .45ACP) The second is available at a specialty sporting goods store or gun shop such as Cabelas but not at Wal-Mart. (.41Mag) The third is available only at an online retailer. (.45GAP) And the fourth is only available in a super specialty online retailer. (.44-77 Sharps)
The .40 S&W has so much presence in the civilian world that I expect it will be stocked at Wal-Mart for decades to come. |
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