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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:20:31 PM EDT
[#1]
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10mm is not dying, if anything just the opposite. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm ps... 6.8 spc is dying too... deal with it it While .40 had a MUCH better start and market than .45 GAP or .327 Mag or .41 or 10MM ever had (possibly better than all combined) The purpose behind the development of the .40 was negated when the 9mm guys finally got their heads out of their asses and realized they could do the almost exact same things with 9mm, hold more in the magazine, not have to redesign frames, fit into existing supply categories and could be used in possibly hundreds of millions of already existing platforms. as before .40 is dying and will like the 10mm's rise and fall, will continue a decline until like 10mm and .41 there will be a few hold outs but it will never see the levels of popularity as when the G22 was unveiled or even what it is today. ETA: This is not a statement on the owners of 40 or 10mm or 41 or 45 GAP or .327 or even 6.8 SPC - this is simply a realistic look at the numbers - i happen to own a 40 and it shoots great, i am really liking the ammo price plunge, but i am a realist and can see where this road is headed. i happen to like the 6.8 SPC round, but i wont buy a new rifle in it - because i can see where the cartridge is going and i have enough strays in the safe already |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 11:25:53 PM EDT
[#2]
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40 HST is my defensive choice. It expands much more than the 9mm offering. Besides the FBI going to 9mm for largely economic reasons (less expensive and less wear and tear on firearms), their own explanation as to why they switched contradicted itself: it's all about wound channel and hitting something vital which is a function of bullet diameter...and we're going with the smaller diameter bullet. 
The premises of the original FBI testing have not changed...and "muh magic 9mm-only bullet technology" is laughable. Nothing wrong with 9mm; nothing wrong with 40...nor 45 nor 10mm. Carry what you want but there's no denying which is more effective. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 1:08:05 AM EDT
[#3]
Aside from the FBI going 9mm, a lot of PD's are too. That said, I'll still bet 1/2 of the country's Dept.'s will still remain .40. This country has spent the last 25 year investing in this round. I'll bet it stays cheap for a long time.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:28:38 AM EDT
[#4]
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But it will always be limited because many of the guns it's fired in weren't meant for 40. HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:31:19 AM EDT
[#5]
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But it will always be limited because many of the guns it's fired in weren't meant for 40. HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:32:39 AM EDT
[#6]
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I'm pretty sure the early Sig 229s I shot were among those "built-from-the-ground-up" as .40 guns. Not simply re-barrelled 9mms. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But it will always be limited because many of the guns it's fired in weren't meant for 40. HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:44:33 AM EDT
[#7]
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you could be right..... i may be missing the 100's of the new offerings in 10mm, are they next to the 45 GAP, or may be next to the 327 magnum models that i see everywhere....... wait...... no, i F#$%^d that up..... i haven't seen lots of new 45 GAP or .327 mag models either..... I did see almost every every pistol company put out models in 9mm though... While .40 had a MUCH better start and market than .45 GAP or .327 Mag or .41 or 10MM ever had (possibly better than all combined) The purpose behind the development of the .40 was negated when the 9mm guys finally got their heads out of their asses and realized they could do the almost exact same things with 9mm, hold more in the magazine, not have to redesign frames, fit into existing supply categories and could be used in possibly hundreds of millions of already existing platforms. as before .40 is dying and will like the 10mm's rise and fall, will continue a decline until like 10mm and .41 there will be a few hold outs but it will never see the levels of popularity as when the G22 was unveiled or even what it is today. ETA: This is not a statement on the owners of 40 or 10mm or 41 or 45 GAP or .327 or even 6.8 SPC - this is simply a realistic look at the numbers - i happen to own a 40 and it shoots great, i am really liking the ammo price plunge, but i am a realist and can see where this road is headed. i happen to like the 6.8 SPC round, but i wont buy a new rifle in it - because i can see where the cartridge is going and i have enough strays in the safe already Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm ps... 6.8 spc is dying too... deal with it it While .40 had a MUCH better start and market than .45 GAP or .327 Mag or .41 or 10MM ever had (possibly better than all combined) The purpose behind the development of the .40 was negated when the 9mm guys finally got their heads out of their asses and realized they could do the almost exact same things with 9mm, hold more in the magazine, not have to redesign frames, fit into existing supply categories and could be used in possibly hundreds of millions of already existing platforms. as before .40 is dying and will like the 10mm's rise and fall, will continue a decline until like 10mm and .41 there will be a few hold outs but it will never see the levels of popularity as when the G22 was unveiled or even what it is today. ETA: This is not a statement on the owners of 40 or 10mm or 41 or 45 GAP or .327 or even 6.8 SPC - this is simply a realistic look at the numbers - i happen to own a 40 and it shoots great, i am really liking the ammo price plunge, but i am a realist and can see where this road is headed. i happen to like the 6.8 SPC round, but i wont buy a new rifle in it - because i can see where the cartridge is going and i have enough strays in the safe already |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:17:11 AM EDT
[#8]
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it's all about wound channel and hitting something vital which is a function of bullet diameter...and we're going with the smaller diameter bullet.
. I think the .40 is a good round but let's not pretend it's wound channel is realistically/significantly larger than a 9. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:25:44 AM EDT
[#9]
The sheer numbers of 40s will ensure that the production of all will be around for a long time.
LE is switching to 9mm as the FBI does, but as they divest their pistols it will still be around a long time. I don't particularly like 40 but it's been a very successful round and new production guns and ammunition will continue to be made. The best thing will be cheap surplus 9mm police trade-ins in the coming years. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:39:06 AM EDT
[#10]
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Any agency who is buying new guns isn't going with .40 - as agencies replace aging pistol stocks, they will be swapping out to 9mm. FBI led the nationwide switch to .40 and they'll lead the switch to 9mm. A Glock rep I spoke to said he expects .40 to be dead for most LE agencies within 10 years, becoming the new .41 magnum. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:05:19 AM EDT
[#11]
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:38:11 AM EDT
[#12]
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Any agency who is buying new guns isn't going with .40 - as agencies replace aging pistol stocks, they will be swapping out to 9mm. FBI led the nationwide switch to .40 and they'll lead the switch to 9mm. A Glock rep I spoke to said he expects .40 to be dead for most LE agencies within 10 years, becoming the new .41 magnum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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NTSA You have people who will stick with 40 for several reasons... to expensive to buy a new firearm, believe it fits them better, believe it is better, and LE departments that already are committed. Who cares what caliber people choose all service caliber pistol rounds are pea shooters and suck for stopping power. I hope 40 sticks around and drops in price because options are great to have. Next panic 40 and 357 will be everywhere and 9 will be impossible to find. Multiple millions of 40s have been sold. There is a significant need for this round. How many 41mag guns have been sold? How many are in a daily carry role? Big difference trying to compare the two |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:53:00 AM EDT
[#13]
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You can't compare 40 to 41mag. Multiple millions of 40s have been sold. There is a significant need for this round. How many 41mag guns have been sold? How many are in a daily carry role? Big difference trying to compare the two He's not talking about sport shooters. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:57:02 AM EDT
[#14]
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And enough Glocks and others out there that the ammunition can not be loaded any hotter. But at least the new guns wear better and recoil a lot less. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:02:56 AM EDT
[#15]
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Glock in .40 S&W while at first were shoe horned have survived the test of time. Same with Beretta 96s. The guns that were designed for 40 feel a lot different. Much less recoil usually. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:12:46 AM EDT
[#16]
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Glock in .40 S&W while at first were shoe horned have survived the test of time. Same with Beretta 96s. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns What were the problem the boarder patrol found? |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:13:54 AM EDT
[#17]
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They needed some mods and are still a little sensitive. Certainly not the best offerings. The guns that were designed for 40 feel a lot different. Much less recoil usually. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Glock in .40 S&W while at first were shoe horned have survived the test of time. Same with Beretta 96s. The guns that were designed for 40 feel a lot different. Much less recoil usually. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:15:28 AM EDT
[#18]
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In the context of policework, he's right. He's not talking about sport shooters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You can't compare 40 to 41mag. Multiple millions of 40s have been sold. There is a significant need for this round. How many 41mag guns have been sold? How many are in a daily carry role? Big difference trying to compare the two He's not talking about sport shooters. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:18:36 AM EDT
[#19]
I just bought a case of cheap .40 for plinking. I sort of saw this coming. I have always owned a .40 with a .357 Sig barrel installed all of the time. I only shot .40 when I got it free or extremely cheap.
I sold my Glock 22 to buy a Sig P320. It took a few weeks to find anyone with a .357Sig barrel in stock, but it will be here any day. I reload .357 Sig, so I don't see myself buying another case of .40 unless it gets even cheaper. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:19:56 AM EDT
[#20]
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See, that's the thing. I have a ton of different .40 caliber guns and my G22 and G27 are great guns. Very little recoil. Now some of the .40 S&W designed guns recoil more. Like the S&W 4006. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:47:38 AM EDT
[#21]
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The G22 has more recoil than a hot loaded G20. I agree that the 10mm Glocks aren't nearly as painful to shoot. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:01:02 PM EDT
[#22]
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The G22 has more recoil than a hot loaded G20. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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See, that's the thing. I have a ton of different .40 caliber guns and my G22 and G27 are great guns. Very little recoil. Now some of the .40 S&W designed guns recoil more. Like the S&W 4006. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:16:26 PM EDT
[#23]
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LOL |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:32:00 PM EDT
[#24]
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Think what you'd like but I've had both and that was very clear to me at the time. The extra 300fps was damped well by the heavier slide. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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LOL 
Gen 4 .40 Cal now but used to have Gen 3 guns. The 10mm guns are both pre SF frame guns. .40 S&W does not recoil more than hot load 10mm Auto loads. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:43:45 PM EDT
[#25]
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I still have both... http://i.imgur.com/govQuM1.jpg http://i.imgur.com/kRb6LuD.jpg Gen 4 .40 Cal now but used to have Gen 3 guns. The 10mm guns are both pre SF frame guns. .40 S&W does not recoil more than hot load 10mm Auto loads. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:21:39 PM EDT
[#26]
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Mine was a Gen 3 22 if that matters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I still have both... http://i.imgur.com/govQuM1.jpg http://i.imgur.com/kRb6LuD.jpg Gen 4 .40 Cal now but used to have Gen 3 guns. The 10mm guns are both pre SF frame guns. .40 S&W does not recoil more than hot load 10mm Auto loads. The recoil was never bad or over powerful. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:24:47 PM EDT
[#27]
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I've had Gen 2 and Gen 3 G22s and G23s. They're all fine.... The recoil was never bad or over powerful. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:54:21 PM EDT
[#28]
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Even the strongest shooters have longer, more productive training days with 9mm. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I've had Gen 2 and Gen 3 G22s and G23s. They're all fine.... The recoil was never bad or over powerful. I own 9, 40, 45, 10, etc.... More fun than to just stick to one cartridge. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:54:27 PM EDT
[#29]
I fired 100 rounds of .40 yesterday. I will fire 100 more today. All will be effective.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 5:00:01 PM EDT
[#30]
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Meh.... I own 9, 40, 45, 10, etc.... More fun than to just stick to one cartridge. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 5:20:52 PM EDT
[#31]
I like 40s&w. The internet loves to bash it, but the internet also Suffers from a good bit of group-think. It's effective, proven in the real world and still has advantages, such as barrier or glass penetration.
I've said this before, but I like sending a 180grain bullet with some speed. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 6:03:16 PM EDT
[#32]
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Don't beretta 96s break more slides? What were the problem the boarder patrol found? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns What were the problem the boarder patrol found? I'd rather have a Sig 229 in .40, ... and I'm a 10mm guy, which means accuracy is actually important, instead of defaulting to the "minute-of-bad-guy" standard that civies and many LEOs are comfortable with. 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 6:13:18 PM EDT
[#33]
I prefer 9mm over .40, but I still love .40.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 6:32:43 PM EDT
[#34]
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Beretta 96s are inaccurate junk. I'd rather have a Sig 229 in .40, ... and I'm a 10mm guy, which means accuracy is actually important, instead of defaulting to the "minute-of-bad-guy" standard that civies and many LEOs are comfortable with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns What were the problem the boarder patrol found? I'd rather have a Sig 229 in .40, ... and I'm a 10mm guy, which means accuracy is actually important, instead of defaulting to the "minute-of-bad-guy" standard that civies and many LEOs are comfortable with. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:37:53 PM EDT
[#35]
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Beretta 96s are inaccurate junk. I'd rather have a Sig 229 in .40, ... and I'm a 10mm guy, which means accuracy is actually important, instead of defaulting to the "minute-of-bad-guy" standard that civies and many LEOs are comfortable with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns What were the problem the boarder patrol found? I'd rather have a Sig 229 in .40, ... and I'm a 10mm guy, which means accuracy is actually important, instead of defaulting to the "minute-of-bad-guy" standard that civies and many LEOs are comfortable with. 
Hasn't broken a slide and is accurate. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:38:55 PM EDT
[#36]
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Don't beretta 96s break more slides? What were the problem the boarder patrol found? |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:46:39 PM EDT
[#37]
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Passive aggressive much? 10mm offerings Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.40 is dying, it will end like the .41 and 10mm ps... 6.8 spc is dying too... deal with it it While .40 had a MUCH better start and market than .45 GAP or .327 Mag or .41 or 10MM ever had (possibly better than all combined) The purpose behind the development of the .40 was negated when the 9mm guys finally got their heads out of their asses and realized they could do the almost exact same things with 9mm, hold more in the magazine, not have to redesign frames, fit into existing supply categories and could be used in possibly hundreds of millions of already existing platforms. as before .40 is dying and will like the 10mm's rise and fall, will continue a decline until like 10mm and .41 there will be a few hold outs but it will never see the levels of popularity as when the G22 was unveiled or even what it is today. ETA: This is not a statement on the owners of 40 or 10mm or 41 or 45 GAP or .327 or even 6.8 SPC - this is simply a realistic look at the numbers - i happen to own a 40 and it shoots great, i am really liking the ammo price plunge, but i am a realist and can see where this road is headed. i happen to like the 6.8 SPC round, but i wont buy a new rifle in it - because i can see where the cartridge is going and i have enough strays in the safe already 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:55:18 PM EDT
[#38]
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Aside from the FBI going 9mm, a lot of PD's are too. That said, I'll still bet 1/2 of the country's Dept.'s will still remain .40. This country has spent the last 25 year investing in this round. I'll bet it stays cheap for a long time. and how is it someone with your screen name is a champion of .40
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:31:21 PM EDT
[#39]
personally I hope 40 dies. It's been holding back handgun design for two and a half decades now.
Nearly every handgun developed in the last 20 years could have been made thinner and lighter if not for that ridiculous cartridge. Dimensionally it sucks, always has sucked, and always will |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:34:52 PM EDT
[#40]
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You're drunk, go home Quote HistoryQuoted:
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S&W M&P HK USP Beretta PX4 Steyr M Series Beretta Cougar And many more were built from the ground up to be .40 guns What were the problem the boarder patrol found? I'd rather have a Sig 229 in .40, ... and I'm a 10mm guy, which means accuracy is actually important, instead of defaulting to the "minute-of-bad-guy" standard that civies and many LEOs are comfortable with. 
Really, the Sig 229 is the mucho better pistola, in 40-cal anyway, if you can't handle a 10mm whatever.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:45:54 PM EDT
[#41]
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CBP issued the 96D Brigader. No slides broke. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Don't beretta 96s break more slides? What were the problem the boarder patrol found? |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:34:14 PM EDT
[#42]
I love used Glocks in 40. People put 50 rounds through them, then sell them cheap since nobody wants 40.
Glock 22 is one of my favorites. My 27 can make my trigger finger sore. I don't guess I really care that it was designed for 9. Pretty sure we would know by now if that was a problem. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:42:34 PM EDT
[#43]
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Gotcha, I thought the brigadier was in response to broken standard slides. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Don't beretta 96s break more slides? What were the problem the boarder patrol found? 
This screen capture is from the FLETC training video about .40 S&W. The officer shooting throughout the video is INS. Beretta last and last. My Elite II 96 Brigadier is by far one of the best I have in my collection. |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 12:12:23 AM EDT
[#44]
I'm a .40 guy, because I'm also a 10mm guy and it makes reloading a little simpler for me. I'm enjoying the cheap .40s on the market right now, but I can see the market is waning. Things like aftermarket .40 barrels and slides are harder to find or discontinued. Some newer pistols to the market are going 9mm only.
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The G22 has more recoil than a hot loaded G20. 
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Posted: 8/23/2017 7:31:22 AM EDT
[#45]
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The G22 has more recoil than a hot loaded G20. Keith |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 9:48:37 AM EDT
[#46]
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Do you think you'd be able to tell the difference by looking at the wound channels of either? I think the .40 is a good round but let's not pretend it's wound channel is realistically/significantly larger than a 9. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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it's all about wound channel and hitting something vital which is a function of bullet diameter...and we're going with the smaller diameter bullet.
. I think the .40 is a good round but let's not pretend it's wound channel is realistically/significantly larger than a 9. Your definition of realistically/significantly may be different than mine, but the point was the FBI themselves said you have to hit something vital, which is a function diameter (and more hits if you want to count that, but since a 40 will typically carry only 1 or 2 less rounds than a similar 9, not really in play here) and then they chose the round with the smaller diameter. So there rationale for going with 9mm was not the round's ability to stop someone. According to their own words, the decision was based on 9mm being more economical (cheaper ammo), less wear and tear (cheaper to maintain) and "easier to shoot". |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 10:07:16 AM EDT
[#47]
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I'm not claiming I (nor anyone else) could see the difference in wound channel. Your definition of realistically/significantly may be different than mine, but the point was the FBI themselves said you have to hit something vital, which is a function diameter (and more hits if you want to count that, but since a 40 will typically carry only 1 or 2 less rounds than a similar 9, not really in play here) and then they chose the round with the smaller diameter. So there rationale for going with 9mm was not the round's ability to stop someone. According to their own words, the decision was based on 9mm being more economical (cheaper ammo), less wear and tear (cheaper to maintain) and "easier to shoot". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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it's all about wound channel and hitting something vital which is a function of bullet diameter...and we're going with the smaller diameter bullet.
. I think the .40 is a good round but let's not pretend it's wound channel is realistically/significantly larger than a 9. Your definition of realistically/significantly may be different than mine, but the point was the FBI themselves said you have to hit something vital, which is a function diameter (and more hits if you want to count that, but since a 40 will typically carry only 1 or 2 less rounds than a similar 9, not really in play here) and then they chose the round with the smaller diameter. So there rationale for going with 9mm was not the round's ability to stop someone. According to their own words, the decision was based on 9mm being more economical (cheaper ammo), less wear and tear (cheaper to maintain) and "easier to shoot".  Attached FileSorry for the crappy pic. There are 2 HSTs. Yes, one is smaller. Do you really think the bigger one is that much bigger that it will stop a fight where as the 9 wouldn't. I like 40s, I like 45s. I'm carrying a 1911 today. Let's just be honest that they're all about the same. I think the heavier bullets are a little better through barriers on a consistent basis and the heavier hardcast rounds are much better for hunting. I'd like to see the hardcast bullets through windshields. I wonder if they'd be deflected less. |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 11:02:52 AM EDT
[#48]
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I'm not claiming I (nor anyone else) could see the difference in wound channel. Your definition of realistically/significantly may be different than mine, but the point was the FBI themselves said you have to hit something vital, which is a function diameter (and more hits if you want to count that, but since a 40 will typically carry only 1 or 2 less rounds than a similar 9, not really in play here) and then they chose the round with the smaller diameter. So there rationale for going with 9mm was not the round's ability to stop someone. According to their own words, the decision was based on 9mm being more economical (cheaper ammo), less wear and tear (cheaper to maintain) and "easier to shoot". It's a handgun they all suck. |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 11:03:20 AM EDT
[#49]
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That's not been my experience at all. Have you ever run a G-20 with the Underwood 200XTP loading? Keith |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 11:10:39 AM EDT
[#50]
The herd mentality in the gun world is something to behold.
I shoot 40 in limited but also appreciated it for what it is...another option. And the recoil is not a big deal IMO. Same guys who think 40 is dumb and only 9 is worth owning have 223, 556, 300blk and 762x51 rifles. Maybe even more eccentric rounds.
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