I want to start by saying I LOVE iron sights. They are so basic and rudementary, yet work so incredibly well. They are also extremely durable. I shoot very well with standard iron sights and really have no complaints. But what is the goal for shooting a defensive pistol? To deliver rapid and accurate fire on a target. Over the last year I have come to the conclusion that for me there is simply no faster way to deliver rapid and accurate fire on a target than with a red dot sight.

I resisted taking the the Red Dot plunge on my defensive handguns for a long time. I have a couple of 22lr target pistols that have red dot sights and love shooting them. About a year ago I decided to send off a slide of one of my Glock 19s to have it milled to accept an Trijicon RMR. I also had tall night sights installed that would be usable should the electronics ever go down.

I have spent the last year practicing and training with my RMR sighted Glock 19. I have to say I am absolutely amazed. I cannot believe how quickly and accurately I can deliver rounds on my target. To shoot the same group simply takes me longer with iron sights. Noticeably longer. For me there is simply no faster way to deliver rapid and accurate fire on a target than with a red dot sight.

It is also just as easy to carry my Glock 19 with an RMR as without. I feel no difference.

Here are the typical groups I am able to fire with the red dot at 10 yards offhand. It takes me about 6 seconds to fire these 10 round groups. With irons, it takes me more like 10 seconds to shoot groups this accurately. It really just amazes me how easy it is to bang out accurate groups so quickly. (NOTE: I am specifically talking about 9mm red dot equipped pistols. In my experience the recoil of larger calibers slows things down quite a bit for me, though no doubt still quicker than their iron sighted counterparts).

10 rounds at 10 yards
I had moved the sight over to another gun for a photoshoot, and needed to tweak the zero. I started to adjust it back as I was shooting today. Hence the elevation is off.

How would you describe the learning curve for a red dot equipped pistol? I've heard it can be difficult to find the dot in the window versus subconsciously picking up iron sights in your peripheral vision and lining them up as you bring the gun up.

This we can agree on.

Just harder to conceal at times for me.

There is a learning curve but it's not bad.

My wife has the rmr on her g19. I'll get another one eventually for mine

I'll say it.  I just don't see how they can help outside of a gun game.

Common defensive use at spitting distance, I can blow the middle out of an A zone.  Sights are almost an afterthought.  A RDS just is not for me there.  

In the games, there is a reason for an optics division.  They work VERY well when you need to squeeze in a tight shot at distance.  Faster and more accurate than irons.  

If it works for you, great.  I just feel my defensive pistol is best left with irons.

I don't know I put a dot on my fnx tactical.  Not only am I on the fence about if I like tge dot but I'm on the fence if I even like that gun.

I routinely practice my draw stroke, to the point that I test it by drawing with my eyes closed.  Nine ties out of ten, the sights are aligned when I open my eyes. If you can do that, you will have no problem finding the dot, which is the biggest barrier to proficiency. I cannot shoot irons with both eyes opened. I see double. For the dot, I just make a conscious effort to keep both eyes wide opened, and never even notice the irons unless they are in the way of the dot.

OP, I resisted it for a couple years.

No way was I going to spend more money on a sight than I spent on the pistol and then half again as much to have the slide milled, new sights installed and the slide refinished.

I even sent a different pistol (not my EDC gun) off for the first install as a trial.  When I got it back and took it to the range there was no doubt in my mind my EDC pistol was next.  I sent it off a couple weeks later and had fun with it after getting it back.

My wife shot the P09 with the RMR on it and liked it so well that we sent her CZ 75 Compact off for similar work (DP Pro instead of RMR).  She loves it.

People can resist it all they want (I did, too.)  But I know, now, that a good dot on a good pistol makes the pistol better for EDC.

I'm an "old guy" and have to wear glasses to see the front sight.  Without my glasses I can't see anything but a big blur (front and rear sights are both blurry for me) with iron sights.  With the RMR I can easily see a fuzzy dot and just as easily put that fuzzy dot on the target where it needs to be.  I can see that dot under low light conditions when I can't see the iron sights even with my glasses on.

RESIST!!  RESIST!  RESIST.  RESIST  RESISt  RESIst  RESist  REsist  Resist  resist  resis  resi  res  re r........Damn, this works great!!   Why didn't I do it sooner??  Which gun should I get done next?

On this page of handgun discussions we have:

1-RDS are GREAT for defensive pistols

2-My RMR died

These slide mounted optics take a beating and they seem to be up to the task, for the most part.  And if you have tall enough irons, you have BUIS.

For EDC how much dust/dirt/crap ends up on the topside lens?
Do you blow or brush it off often?

I tried a 3 moa Fastfire III on my FNX-45 and didn't leave it on long, maybe it was the smaller dot or the recoil but it actually slowed me down.

Need a larger 8 Moa for a pistol to pick up the dot quickly.

Anything can break. Buis are on my wife's g19 with the rmr in case that happens. In the meantime it's a more effective weapon. Yes, odds are it's unnecessary. But if needed it's there and does not slow me down up close.

There's some stuff that gets on the lens but not enough to worry about. If it was my EDC it would get wiped off every night. I do that anyways since I carry aiwb and just do it as PM to keep rust at Bay.

If you put tall sights on the pistol, it is simple to find the dot. Just be on the lookout for the top of the tall irons and you will never lose the dot. The first time you bring the gun up, just pretend you are bringing up the irons, and the dot is right there. Very little learning curve.

Without tall sights, very difficult to find the dot. Almost impossible. TALL SIGHTS ARE A MUST.

This is very subjective for sure. If you have a setup that works for you, that's great. This is just my conclusion.

I would agree, but one that comes on automatically.

The learning curve takes some practice, but once you get it.....it is much faster to hit your mark.

I used on in USPSA and found it to be too easy.

Are you aiming with your non-dominant eye?

It's only a matter of time before the technology improves.
How long before we have threads that look back wistfully on the time of iron sighted pistols?

How is the DP PRO battery doing in a carry gun?  
I definitely think it's a better sight (clear glass and no distortion) than the many RMRs I've tried.

But I gave up on Red Dots since I can't afford to put them on ALL the guns I carry (3), and for most stuff inside of 7Y, it didn't speed anything up for me.  It was faster on plates at 15-25Y.

I use a lens brush when I'm cleaning the pistol and it works great to get stuff off the lens of the RMRs.  Over a few days they'll pick up all kinds of lint from the inside of my shirt, dust from the air, etc.  Sometimes, I do just use the bottom of my t-shirt, if the t-shirt is clean enough.

The RMRs are the 05 and 05G models (amber and green) so the dot is pretty big.

The DP Pro is a smaller dot but if you crank up the brightness the dot looks bigger.  When I look through the DP Pro I notice how much brighter it is than the RMRs, at first, then as I shoot it I stop noticing the difference and just shoot it.

I have little interest in red dots as of now but have no doubt they are the future.

By no means are red dots a MUST. I do just fine with the irons and would be perfectly happy carrying on with them. There is just no question for me, that I am able to get more shots, more accurately on target in a shorter period of time with a red dot.

That makes a lot of sense, never thought of it that way.

Without irons you have no point of reference for the dot. The low iron sights sit below the window of the RMR and cannot serve as a point of reference. You need the tall sights as THE reference point.

I'm waiting on the next evolution of technology.
Still to many problems with rmr's failing for me to buy one.

Like a fiber optic front sight with its own power source.

I like the line of thought but actually i prefer the simplicity of the dot.

I had a 1911 competition gun many years ago that had a grip mount for the optic iirc we were using worked over rem 1100 charging handles to rack the slide.

With tall sights, if the red dot fails, it is not an issue. The sights are right there. All I know is my RMR takes a beating and just keeps going.

The only time I have had a "failure" was after I changed the battery, which i do every 6 months regardless, and I did not tighten it the RMR down enough and it became a little loose. The battery would lose contact and the dot would go in and out. If you keep the sight tightened down properly and check it every so often, there should be no issue.

When it did exhibit this problem while I was shooting a group, I just continued on shooting with the irons and it had zero effect on the group I was shooting. The dot was going in and out while I was shooting the group and I just focused on the irons. Non event. I went home added some blue loctite to the RMR screws and problem gone.

New and fancy ain't necessarily better, nor even more combat effective.

Plenty of Krauts, Japs, and Commies fell to my Great-Grandpa's geezer gun, ... and he got it all done without any spiffy mini-RDS or even those cool-guy watches like Chris and Travis wear.

My Gramps always said, "Boy, just put yer sights on the bad guy and shoot to slide-lock."

I like my 1911's, too.  Problem is the front sights are there but no longer usable for me unless I put on the right glasses.  The dot is there, whether it's sharp or blurry, it's still visible and usable.

Even if my eyes were back to 20 to 25 year old sharp, the front sight would still be hard to see under some low light conditions and the RMR is on 24/7 for the next 10 to 12 years.

I know, I fought the idea of spending all that extra money for years.  The I had my P09 done.  Since then I've bought/had installed three more dot sights on pistols.  Will I put one on every pistol?  Hell no.  Just on the ones I carry for self protection.  The old keep sakes, the custom range guns, the projects to make one gun into something else just don't need a dot sight to do what I bought/built them to do.

Yeah but how well did Gramps see those sights? I'm pushing 50. Close up I do NOT see well. Iron sights are getting harder for me to see well. I had Lasik and my distance vision is 20/15 in both eyes, but up close is not good. I see a red dot great up close. Soon I will not have a choice. I will need red dots on everything.

Like i said technology still not their......
I don't want to jack with taking my sight off to change the battery every 6 months.
Failure rate still to high for me to invest that kind of money.  (i had an eotech still own a trijicon tripower no more questionable optics for me)

I do appreciate all the people working out the kinks though.
I fully agree it's the way of the future i'm just not beta testing anymore with my money.

I'm not really a fan. I hate searching for the dot, and no matter how much technology advances, there will always be the compromise between field of view and bulk.

As long as there is rain, snow I'll stick to iron sights on my handguns and fully enclosed/sealed optics on my rifles.
I've seen too many instances of a fat rain drop turning a open RMR from a crisp dot into a crazy red starburst.

Maybe in a few years when Aimpoint has a Micro-Micro-Micro T1 that is integrated with the slide (or even better integrated with the frame so it doesn't reciprocate with the slide) then I'll revisit dots on handguns.
I'm imagining an Atom style slide mount with a T1 about 1/3 the size of the current model but with a better FOV.
Even better would be a ALG style frame mounted dot that was actually molded as part of the frame, all batteries and electronics inside the frame and only the lens and dot above the slide in a package about 1/3 the size of current RMR's.

I absolutely agree, and I've been training like heck with mine.

It took me about 15 shots from a friends RMR bearing gun to decide I liked the concept enough to get my own.
I got my first and within two or three mags was totally comfortable and sold on the concept.
I now own three and have plans on getting a few more over the next couple of years.

I have 1 RMR that had flicker issues that gave me pause... but I was able to fix it myself.  I look forward to seeing what the future holds with further development.

My EDC gun has an RMR 06 on it and I love it.  It is almost unfairly fast at range.  At close range it's not much faster (if at all) than irons / instinct / point shooting... but once the target is more than 7 or so yards out it gets noticeably faster.  It blew my mind to be pulling headshots at 75' almost as fast as I could see the dot... if I do my part on trigger control it's amazing the boosts to 'real life' speed and accuracy.

Cool

Nice low left...rds?

As I explained in my original post, I had just replaced the battery in my RMR as I do every 6 months to a year. The battery is under the unit, so you must take it off the slide. When you do that, you generally need to re-zero. You can see one group is furthest away, the next group is a little closer. The third group, which I somehow forgot to photograph was centered. I throw away the targets after I shoot, so no way to take a pic.

Now that the RMR is zeroed, If it will make you happy, when I go to the range this week I will take a pic of the rounds shooting out the center dot and post it here ;)

I don't know that the OP really addresses the bigger issues surrounding red dot sights and defense.

I have both a G19/RMR and of course G19s with Irons (HD sights). I've been shooting RMR guns for years and still vacillate on whether the RMR is an advantage or disadvantage.

The question that always comes up is the speed-to-first-shot. Probably should be rephrased to "speed to first hit" since the RMR changes the game there in some situations.

The common concern is reaching extension and you don't see the dot. Is the pistol misaligned and the dot outside the window? Did the battery run out? Did the optic just quit? Now you have a split second lost to reaction time and remedial action (switching to the irons). The irons aren't as clear as using irons NOT through glass so you may not get as good of a hit (depending on how much you need those sights for the current target problem). And once you line up the irons you may have corrected the "dot outside window" problem, and now you'll be tempted to switch back to the dot. Time lost (hopefully fractions of a second, but still!)

Focusing just on the software part, I don't buy the "just practice your presentation more" argument since the practice usually envisioned is static consistent draw to a static predictable target... doesn't reflect reality. Not trying to pick on Couch Commando but just as an example... 9/10 eyes closed presentation consistency is great but what's your success ratio sitting in the seat of your car presenting one handed to the passenger side? Sitting at a table and presenting while leaning 30 degrees to your right? I know my consistency decreases dramatically, because you can't replicate the same conditions as easily (nor is it realistic to think real-world conditions will be the same as our static practice conditions). I think there are too many variables to be able to say you can practice to the point where you always find the dot, real-world.

But assuming you could...
What does the RMR actually give you? The ability to read your sight better in recoil... but at reactive self-defense distances is that really a problem? I can track my HD front sight in rapid fire just fine and using just that seems to give me enough accuracy out to 7-10yds. RMR allows more of a target focus, but again I can target focus and still be aware of my blurry HD front sight enough to get hits.

I do think the RMR is a help at longer distance, low contrast, and precision shots where it would be hard to get enough accuracy from iron sights. The shot that you'd take time to really perfect your iron sight alignment for... now comes much faster with the RMR, so time to first HIT is reduced.

In low light (assuming you can find the dot) it's much more precise than three-dot sights. But if it's dark, it's unlikely you're being attacked from a distance long enough that you need more precision.

At really long ranges (I've shot mine out to 200yds) it's easier to hold over the head of a target with a dot, than with irons blocking everything below. After about 75yds the RMR becomes faster for me. But we're talking 75-200yds... not what is considered self defense range (I know there are a handful of exceptions.)

So I tend to use my RMR gun for situations where the shots could predictably be longer, or the lights lower, and I am not likely to be the first target so I'd have a second to correct for a "missing dot" problem. Movie theaters, shopping malls, large public events.

For me finding the dot came down to finding a consistent grip.  If my grip is right coming out of the holster the dot is right where it is suppose to be.  It helps if the pistol naturally point well for you.

Red dots can lead to a faster sight picture and thus a better response time.  Accuracy may or may not be better based on the individual shooter.  But here's my two cents.

I well into my dotage.  The eyes aren't what they were, and my hands are not as steady.  For concealed carry with most of my handguns used for that purpose, I've installed lasers.  They are just as or faster than any other type of sighting device.  There are grip type lasers from several manufactures that can be had for most contemporary handguns (heck there's a company that makes one for the little NAA mini revolvers, not a grip type though).  They don't and any significant bulk, and usually don't require special holsters.

One other thing, they do not interfere with iron sights.  You don't have to remove them so if the battery fails you still have the original sights to switch to.  By the way you should train making that change, best to do it mid string.

Like I said, just my two cents.  But I'm proud to say I'm not some hide bound old fart that can't or won't seen the advantages of new things.

OP, I'd love to see a group you shot using your RMR in the rain. Seriously. I was a very early adapter with an FN Tactical that was the first factory gun to come milled for an RDS. I thought it was cool until I went shooting in the rain. I couldn't see shit, no dot nor my front sight. Removed the RMR and all was good. I did not have that issue with my rifle using a T1.

Perhaps the T1 T2 equipped pistols don't have rain issues but the RMR sure does.

This is exactly my opinion also.

Is rain a real concern in AZ?

I've shot with my RMR in the rain and it wasn't an issue until I'd been out in it awhile. For a defensive shooting that's over in 5 seconds starting with the RMR under a garment, I can't see it being a problem.

I love the idea of red dots, in theory.  This is coming from someone who's had two pistols with slides milled for RMRs.  The reason I won't carry a pistol with a red dot is because both of those pistols had issues with the red dot within 1,000 rounds.  I've also discussed the matter with Steve Fisher of Sentinel Concepts who has very thorough experience with RMRed pistols and he admits that he gets about 4,000 rounds out an RMR before it has to go to back to the factory.  By that account, my 19 would easily be on its third red dot.  My Glock has had the same set of Trijicon HDs since the beginning and they are the same as they were since day 1.  Considering that adding an RMR would cost 1.5x the pistol it goes on, I'm just not ready to do that again.

One fat raindrop on the emitter is all it takes to take out a MRD until it's cleared.
That one fat raindrop could happen on presentation or it could take 10 minutes.
Pure luck of the draw so to speak.

On my rifles I'm all about the red dot (but a sealed tube style like the Aimpoint T2).
On my handguns it's 100% KISS iron sights, no trinkets or electronic toys.

It's only a concern if it rains. And "liquid sunshine" does happen here. Sun will be out and a single rain cloud will dump a lot of water. I've had it pour in my back yard and stay dry in my front yard.

This happened to me me with that FN maybe the 3rd or 4th time out. I literally couldn't see the dot or the irons through the RMR. I was with 3 other shooters and they all had the same problem. I sold it all right away and never looked back.

Like I said, maybe the T1/T2 is different. That day I took my T1 equipped AR out and had no issues seeing through it in the rain. The RMR was of no use.

Having never shot a red dot pistol, where is your focus point?

With irons it's supposed to be the front sight and the rear and target are blurry, but if you focus on the dot you're basically focusing on the "rear sight", which will make your front cowitnessed sight blurry (and the target of course)..

Do you still focus on the front sight? The target?

Just like you would with a red dot on a rifle - you focus both eyes on the target.  Superimpose the dot over it and pull the trigger.  While I'm still learning the red dot on handgun and am breaking years of muscle memory, you'll notice that normally the dot is blurry when you look at it.  It's meant to be that way.  Focus on the target and superimpose the dot - it'll be crisp and clean.

I'm not planning on needing to use my defensive gun in the rain ;) Obviously I am kidding. I doubt I will be able to dictate the weather should the situation arise. Good to know about the RMR in the rain. That could be a problem.

Interesting. I am well over the 1000 round mark, approaching 2K actually. I will need to keep an eye on this.

That bit of info about a fairly "short" lifespan is disconcerting, especially since I just picked up a Type 1 RMR on clearance from Cabelas.