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Posted: 5/14/2017 10:04:53 PM EDT
I know they have been around a bit and caused a huge initial controversy. I don't know what thought is about them now but the one thing I really like about the idea is the barrier blindness and the fact they cannot get clogged with clothing. They have great penetration and seem like a good idea.

How would a 90gr object do against bone 4 inches in vs say a 147gr object?
Link Posted: 5/14/2017 10:47:29 PM EDT
[#1]
The biggest draw backs about the Xtreme Defender is how much they over penetrate, and the small would channel when compared to a good quality expending bullet like a gold dot etc.
Link Posted: 5/15/2017 6:54:25 AM EDT
[#2]
I have done ballistic gel testing with the 9mm and the .45 Xtreme defender. Both performed remarkably well in regards to penetration through various media. Both penetrated to 17-17 1/2" repeatedly.
Also the .380 Xtreme Penetrator also penetrated to 17"
Link Posted: 5/15/2017 6:03:34 PM EDT
[#3]
I am also very interested in this round.  I think it holds great promise!  Could be the next step up from traditional HP designs.  Definitely worth a look!
Link Posted: 5/16/2017 5:24:21 AM EDT
[#4]
I've picked some up and still testing (.380, 9mm and .38SPL).  The concept of physics makes sense: solid, light bullet at high velocities gets good penetration.  Much of the debate is on the design of the bullet to create those perpendicular tears with fluid displacement.  It does perform well in gel, but I really think more testing in real tissue/bone is required.  I'm also curious to see how well they do against real bone.  What is nice is that the weight and design doesn't cause much bullet yaw, so you do get pretty consistent penetration.  Also, the velocities are pretty good out of shorter barrels.  

I've done some basic accuracy tests for my backpacking concealed carry guns.  Trying to choose between my Kahr CM9 or S&W 438 (no issues feeding in the Kahr).  Although statistically, even the rare confrontations while backpacking are predominantly two-legged predators, my interest (and question) is in how well these solid, lightweight, high-velocity bullets penetrate heavier hide, gristle, muscle and bone.  Over penetration is less of an issue, but you definitely want to get through tougher tissue and bone to strike vitals.  

Typically, I consider these snake-oil bullet designs, but Black Hills and Underwood are pretty reputable and after doing some research into Black Hill's testing, there is some promise to potential performance.  

ROCK6
Link Posted: 5/16/2017 1:46:35 PM EDT
[#5]
The first six rounds in my spare magazine are the Extreme Penetrator version.  The .357 sig (making well over 100 ft/pnds more energy than the 9mm) might be useful for barrier penetration, so I like that option even if I cannot dream up a situation where I'd use them.

I picked up a couple boxes of the .380 for my wife's P238 but a six months later I still haven't gotten around to testing them.


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 5/16/2017 3:05:09 PM EDT
[#6]
I want to try some of the .380's for my Glock 42 but nobody around here carries them.  I've been to every gun shop nearby as well as shows, and nothing.  Maybe one day I'll find them or pay the crazy shipping on a couple boxes.
Link Posted: 5/16/2017 7:15:05 PM EDT
[#7]
I'll admit I'm curious about the bullet design... trying to decide which caliber to start with.
Link Posted: 5/16/2017 10:39:27 PM EDT
[#8]
I have the extreme penetraters loaded in my .380.
Link Posted: 5/18/2017 9:22:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Although I like the concept and want them to work well, I don't think they will and I'll tell you why.

Last spring, I got the opportunity to take a ballistics workshop for my PD job put on by Vista Outdoors, the parent company of Speer, Federal and other companies. The instructor had tons of knowledge about ballistics, internal, external and terminal. The class was mostly about passing on knowledge about ballistic performance to assist in choosing effective duty ammo, but the same principals apply to CCW ammo. I already knew a bit of the info but learned quite a bit, as well.

When you are talking about bullets impacting at less then about 2200 FPS (which means practically any pistol bullet), the only thing the bullet does is punch a hole. There is no "hydrostatic effect" or anything else. It just punches a hole. Below 2200 FPS, you have not exceeded the elastic properties of human body tissues, so the bullet punches a hole, the tissues stretch out of the way, then snap back into place after the bullet passes. The tissue does not rip and tear, except for any tissue directly touched by the bullet. If the bullet has sharp edges on it, the edges may cut some tissue, but that is it. The bullet just punches a hole. The temporary cavity just snaps back into place with very little or no damage to it because you have not exceeded the elastic properties of the tissues.

When you get above 2200 FPS, things chance. Above 2200 FPS, you exceed the elastic limits of the body tissues and the temporary cavity starts ripping and tearing and you start to get damage outside the direct passage of the bullet. This is why rifle bullets are so damaging and effective, because they are traveling so fast that you exceed the elastic limits of the tissues and they cause a lot more damage than just the tissue directly touched by the bullet.

When you see damage in gel blocks caused by pistol bullets, keep in mind that the gel isn't as elastic as human tissue. The temporary cavities shown in gel blocks does not snap back into place like human tissues and is a representation of the pressure wave caused by the bullet. Because human tissues are more elastic, they will stretch but not rip and tear as shown in gel blocks, then simply snap back into place.

When talking about the Extreme Defense and Extreme Penetrator bullets, they do not exceed the 2200 FPS threshold, so they likely will not cause any more damage than a FMJ bullet. The cuts in the bullets will likely not do what they say they will because you have not exceeded the elastic properties of the tissues.

Having said all that, I applaud them for their ingenuity and attempt to make a more effective bullet. I hope they work the way they say they will because I really like the idea that the bullet is, basically, barrier blind and impervious to clogging when passing through heavy clothing. They should also punch through bone very well. I'll reserve judgement until there have been some shootings with these bullets and we have some definitive results as to how they perform in real life. I hope they will work the way they say they will, but I kinda doubt it because they are operating at handgun velocities that don't exceed the elastic limits of body tissues to be able to rip and tear like rifle bullets will. We'll see.

Bub75
Link Posted: 5/18/2017 9:49:05 PM EDT
[#10]
The Xtreme Defender .357Sig travels at a advertised 2100fps
Link Posted: 5/18/2017 10:14:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The Xtreme Defender .357Sig travels at a advertised 2100fps
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Link? Everything is 1600ish fps
Link Posted: 5/18/2017 10:28:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Link? Everything is 1600ish fps
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https://underwoodammo.com/shop/357-sig-65-grain-xtreme-defender/
Link Posted: 5/18/2017 10:39:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The first six rounds in my spare magazine are the Extreme Penetrator version.  The .357 sig (making well over 100 ft/pnds more energy than the 9mm) might be useful for barrier penetration, so I like that option even if I cannot dream up a situation where I'd use them.

I picked up a couple boxes of the .380 for my wife's P238 but a six months later I still haven't gotten around to testing them.


https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/171243/UAEP-209690.JPG
View Quote
Is it just me or do those look like a FTF just waiting to happen?
Link Posted: 5/19/2017 6:00:20 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


https://underwoodammo.com/shop/357-sig-65-grain-xtreme-defender/
View Quote
Hmmmm
Link Posted: 5/19/2017 6:11:22 AM EDT
[#15]
I carry the .380 Underwood Xtreme penetrator. In gel testing it penetrated to 17" repeatedly. It did not over penetrate like the FMJ and it did not underpenetrate like most hollow point .380's
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 8:00:46 AM EDT
[#16]
I've never tried them, but can a bullet shaped like that feed worth a crap? They look like they'd be a nightmare in that regard.
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 9:30:48 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've never tried them, but can a bullet shaped like that feed worth a crap? They look like they'd be a nightmare in that regard.
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Why?
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 9:41:01 AM EDT
[#18]
The underwoods fed 100% in my Ruger LCP custom, Ruger LCP II, Glock 42 and not at all in my Kahr CW380. Surprisingly Lehigh's version ran 100% in my Kahr CW 380. They use a different case
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 9:55:10 AM EDT
[#19]
The Xtreme Penetrators feed 100% in my Glock 20, Glock 19, and Glock 43.  The Xtreme Defenders feed 100% in my Glock 42, 43, and 19.  

The Xtreme Defenders are my primary carry load in the 42, 43, and 19.  The Xtreme Penetrators are for the Glock 20, which I carry when in bear country.  

If the Xtreme Defenders don't penetrate as much as FMJ, then that means they are doing more in the tissue or gel than an FMJ, and what they are doing is causing damage.  

Honestly, the overpenetration thing is so overblown.  I hear people say, oh, you might overpenetrate and hit someone else!  Well, wouldn't a missed shot be more of a danger than that? And guess what? There are LOTS of missed shots in pistol fights.  I don't worry about overpenetration.  I worry about hitting the target, as many times as possible.  

Getting hits matters much more than the type of bullet you are carrying, with the exception of bear country.  (Although I did read recently about a guy that put a bunch of 9mm into a grizzly bear and killed it, when it charged him.  I've got no idea what bullets were used.)
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 10:08:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Shoemaker used Buffalo bore 147 grain hard cast bullets to shoot the brown bear with
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 10:19:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Shoemaker used Buffalo bore 147 grain hard cast bullets to shoot the brown bear with
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I'm guessing he wasn't worried about either expansion or overpenetration, then, right?
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 12:07:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:Honestly, the overpenetration thing is so overblown.  I hear people say, oh, you might overpenetrate and hit someone else!  
View Quote
Agree.

How often would a private citizen, shooting in self-defense, be shooting a bad guy in a crowd?

I'm not a cop or a commando, if I ever have to shoot it'll most likely be in an isolated location, where bad guys typically look for victims, not in a crowd of witnesses.  

A handgun round won't be carrying enough smash after passing through a bad guy (except maybe an arm) to do much damage beyond.  

I've never had any .357sig round FTF, these included.
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 12:22:53 PM EDT
[#23]
I wonder what they do to thick bone. Seems like it might be a decent option for folks that don't have a bear defense handgun.
Link Posted: 5/21/2017 10:23:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I carry the .380 Underwood Xtreme penetrator. In gel testing it penetrated to 17" repeatedly. It did not over penetrate like the FMJ and it did not underpenetrate like most hollow point .380's
View Quote
I think the XD really shines in the .380.
Link Posted: 5/27/2017 3:34:20 PM EDT
[#25]
I too am interested in these bullets. I think some of us need to shoot medium-sized game and take pics/report results. I am hunting pigs with the 10mm 115gr version next week, so hopefully I will get lucky (main is 12ga slugs but if a 100lber walks within 25yds I'll shoot it with the handgun).

A few comments based on reading the thread:

1. For barriers, the defender is sharper and based on tests I have seen will penetrate better than the penetrator on HARD barriers. The penetrator bullet will penetrate more IN LARGE ANIMALS.

2. I understand the flutes are not proven but it does not make sense to say the 2200fps limit is the same for a fluted bullet vs a JHP. Maybe 1500-1700 is too slow ... I will hopefully shoot some living things with mine in the next year.

3. Regarding overpenetration with the defender, then do 16-18in in gel and that is within fbi guidelines. If you research the subject you will find many more issues of police officers dying because the bullet underpenetrated than overpenetration. Now, the PENETRATOR will go 27+ inches, and yes I would not carry that in 9mm or bigger (unless in the woods). Also if you are worried about overpenetration, while the defender penetrates on the deep side, it seems to never overpenetrate. If you test HST or other good hollowpoints on barriers they will sometimes act like FMJ.

We will see but I am almost certain the 65gr version at 2100fps will work as advertised on animals, but I need to see results of the slower heavier 90gr before I am confident in it.

This year or next, eventually I will be in range of medium-sized game and post results.
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