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Posted: 5/10/2017 1:25:30 PM EDT
[#1]
That all makes complete sense. But there are a lot of guys that carry J frames that have BTDT. At least some of the time. I do too but I admit I'm always thinking I should be carrying more. I think it would help in a lot of situations. But definitely not all situations.
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Posted: 5/10/2017 5:17:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's your training resume look like? Usually when I see people that feel undergunned when carrying a "real" gun like a compact 9mm (basically anything more than a LCP or J frame) it's more often a lack of confidence in their abilities more than a caliber or capacity deficiency. The more training you get, especially multi-discipline handgun, knife, unarmed, combined FoF the less you worry about the hardware you carry. I've been a handgun and CCW instructor a long time. There's a pattern damn near everyone goes through when they start carrying. The guys with a brand new freshly minted permit try to carry a full sized steel framed whatever for about a month. Then the realize that their back hurts, their pants sag and it's a pain in the ass to carry 5# of steel around all day. So then they go to the next extreme and carry a LCP in their pocket. This phase may last months or years. Then they actually have or hear about an incident that makes them realize their LCP is a shit choice. Finally they get some real training and go forth with a new attitude... and a Glock 19 and a Glock 26 and a Glock 43... 'cause one is none, two is one, three is mo 'betta. Then after a few months of that they realize, damn this shit is heavy and my life is too boring to carry all this crap around all day. More training... maybe a BJJ or boxing class... best case scenario is a FoF class from a great instructor (Craig Douglas). Now... you're an experienced CCW, with some solid fighting fundamentals and have a good idea of what goes on in your daily routine and what the threats look like. You're also not hardware focused, you know there's a lot more to it than what gun you carry. Most guys at this stage end up with a compact 9/40/45 with a capacity of 7-15, a decent accessible knife and a small light as their "hardware". That phase should last you until you're too old to go outside anymore and you start carrying a shotgun on your lap in the wheelchair. My first carry gun was a 1911 which lasted for years. Now I carry a m9a1 compact, or a 5" 1911, or a g19. I've only ever dabbled in smaller guns for specific uses like running. Which stage is that? I think most guys settle for easy guns out if complacency and a normalcy bias |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 6:32:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been legally carrying concealed since 21, 12 years. Training in martial arts since I was 6. I have a few black belts(including training in Thailand and Oki) and was a varsity wrestler in Illinois. I'm a former Marine Infantryman, currently a pt firearm instructor and bouncer. My first carry gun was a 1911 which lasted for years. Now I carry a m9a1 compact, or a 5" 1911, or a g19. I've only ever dabbled in smaller guns for specific uses like running. Which stage is that? I think most guys settle for easy guns out if complacency and a normalcy bias |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 6:39:12 PM EDT
[#4]
I went with a single-stack 9 because I am a Physician.
I have to wear Business Casual (slacks collared shirt, neck tie) to work, so carrying larger or heavier guns does not work for me. I'm actually thinking about switching to an LC9, G42, or P938 as the XDs even feels a little large. |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 9:57:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I went with a single-stack 9 because I am a Physician. I have to wear Business Casual (slacks collared shirt, neck tie) to work, so carrying larger or heavier guns does not work for me. I'm actually thinking about switching to an LC9, G42, or P938 as the XDs even feels a little large. 
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Posted: 5/10/2017 9:58:25 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a pattern damn near everyone goes through when they start carrying. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've been legally carrying concealed since 21, 12 years. Training in martial arts since I was 6. I have a few black belts(including training in Thailand and Oki) and was a varsity wrestler in Illinois. I'm a former Marine Infantryman, currently a pt firearm instructor and bouncer. My first carry gun was a 1911 which lasted for years. Now I carry a m9a1 compact, or a 5" 1911, or a g19. I've only ever dabbled in smaller guns for specific uses like running. Which stage is that? I think most guys settle for easy guns out if complacency and a normalcy bias |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 2:50:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fwiw using a gun in any self defense situation is a statistical anomaly in of it's self. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I often carry a j frame with one reload. If a situation presents this won't handle it is so outside the realm of a defensive scenario it is a statistical anomaly. If we wanted to be fully prepared for every scenario you would need to haul a wagon load of gear, and bring along an aed trauma kit and much more. Considering any use of a handgun in self defense is a statistical anomaly. Now consider the situation that concerns the OP, namely a mob that is not only aggressive but will also press the attack even after rounds are fired. Now I think we are talking about an extreme statistical anomaly out of a field of already rare anomalies. ETA: Not trying to be dismissive over anyone's personal choice in firearms. Ultimately we are the one's carrying, so we should go with what each of us decide is appropriate. My only point was the chance of attack by a mob requiring many rounds expended is going to be an extreme outlier, and I wouldn't use that as the sole basis in my decision. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:13:51 PM EDT
[#8]
I see that OP is in NM.
I routinely find myself in the shittiest parts of Albuquerque, Farmington and Espanola. Including right in the middle of a Albuquerque communist/antifa/BLM/LaRaza "protest" (was actually a mob rules riot). At no time did I think that my Walther PPS 7+1 was inadequate. It takes some hard core, trained pipe hitters to press the fight when bullets start flying. Those people are so rare that to come across a group of them would be like finding a herd of unicorns. Train hard to be able to get one guy off of you physically, and have the ability to rapidly put rounds on two targets as you come out of that entanglement. That's the kind of threat you're going to find outside of fighting religious zealots or trained military. By far the biggest threat we face as CCW is having one guy entangled with us and his backup a few feet away. Being able to control that entanglement, break out of it in a superior position and then rapidly engage two targets will carry you through 99.99% of the fights you might possibly face if you live an exciting life. The 0.01% possibility... improvise that shit! 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 5:40:02 PM EDT
[#9]
It does seem like most accounts with multiple thieves, they flee when the rounds start flying. And active shooters are typically 1 guy. But that one in the 80's was 2 I think. Was it the hollywood or the other one? I forget.
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Posted: 5/12/2017 10:57:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It does seem like most accounts with multiple thieves, they flee when the rounds start flying. And active shooters are typically 1 guy. But that one in the 80's was 2 I think. Was it the hollywood or the other one? I forget. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 10:59:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is very true. Considering any use of a handgun in self defense is a statistical anomaly. Now consider the situation that concerns the OP, namely a mob that is not only aggressive but will also press the attack even after rounds are fired. Now I think we are talking about an extreme statistical anomaly out of a field of already rare anomalies. ETA: Not trying to be dismissive over anyone's personal choice in firearms. Ultimately we are the one's carrying, so we should go with what each of us decide is appropriate. My only point was the chance of attack by a mob requiring many rounds expended is going to be an extreme outlier, and I wouldn't use that as the sole basis in my decision. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 11:43:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're already willing to entertain that you may need a handgun at all then what's another .87%? |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 12:09:41 AM EDT
[#13]
My xds is easy accurate and reliable and getting hit with it would be bad times. Very bad.
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Posted: 5/13/2017 12:18:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Glock 19 with a 15 rounder and 17 rounder.
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Posted: 5/13/2017 1:01:22 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see that OP is in NM. I routinely find myself in the shittiest parts of Albuquerque, Farmington and Espanola. Including right in the middle of a Albuquerque communist/antifa/BLM/LaRaza "protest" (was actually a mob rules riot). At no time did I think that my Walther PPS 7+1 was inadequate. It takes some hard core, trained pipe hitters to press the fight when bullets start flying. Those people are so rare that to come across a group of them would be like finding a herd of unicorns. Train hard to be able to get one guy off of you physically, and have the ability to rapidly put rounds on two targets as you come out of that entanglement. That's the kind of threat you're going to find outside of fighting religious zealots or trained military. By far the biggest threat we face as CCW is having one guy entangled with us and his backup a few feet away. Being able to control that entanglement, break out of it in a superior position and then rapidly engage two targets will carry you through 99.99% of the fights you might possibly face if you live an exciting life. The 0.01% possibility... improvise that shit! I live in Albuquerque. Any suggestions for physical / martial arts / fight training? |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 1:22:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And to clarify, I don't ride the BART, nor do I live in CA (thank GOD!). Was just thinking that with all the SJWs and Antifas around these days, a group attack against an individual may be a more frequent occurrence in the next few months. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 9:26:19 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice post. I live in Albuquerque. Any suggestions for physical / martial arts / fight training? They also host classes by guys like Craig Douglas and Cecil Burch. PM me and I'll put you in contact with them. (btw: if you go to Cecil's web site... top left corner animated GIF, I'm the dude with the shaved head, the dude in the blue T is from Albq. Immediate Action Combatives) |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 9:37:25 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Huh? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you're already willing to entertain that you may need a handgun at all then what's another .87%? I will admit that even that has limits. I'm not walking around in plates and rifle mags strapped to my chest. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 9:44:23 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We plan for worst case scenario right? Why stop at the "almost" worst case scenario? I say plan for 2-3 opponents, you say plan for 4-5, there's always the possibility of 8-10 or 50-100. Besides... the fundamentals don't change no matter the scenario. Tactics > another 4 or 5 rounds of handgun capacity once you're into John Wick levels of violence. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 10:47:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because there's ALWAYS another level of "worst case scenario". I say plan for 2-3 opponents, you say plan for 4-5, there's always the possibility of 8-10 or 50-100. Besides... the fundamentals don't change no matter the scenario. Tactics > another 4 or 5 rounds of handgun capacity once you're into John Wick levels of violence. I agree with situation awareness>tactics>4-5-10 rounds. But disagree that carrying those rounds precludes the use of those tactics and situation awareness. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 10:59:53 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually, I think 2-3 is a pretty good plan. I just don't think I'm going to nail them with my first 2-3 rounds and be done. I'm going to be running, they might be moving, there may be trees or car doors in the way, etc. I agree with situation awareness>tactics>4-5-10 rounds. But disagree that carrying those rounds precludes the use of those tactics and situation awareness. But there's always a point of diminishing returns when it comes to concealed carry, especially if there could be negative repercussions to being made. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 12:21:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course extra rounds = extra options. But there's always a point of diminishing returns when it comes to concealed carry, especially if there could be negative repercussions to being made. It doesn't have to be a g19, I just mean that sized gun. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 12:37:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I went with a single-stack 9 because I am a Physician. I have to wear Business Casual (slacks collared shirt, neck tie) to work, so carrying larger or heavier guns does not work for me. I'm actually thinking about switching to an LC9, G42, or P938 as the XDs even feels a little large. 11oz power house. XS tritium front sight, CT laser grips and an Apex duty trigger kit. 135gr +P Speer GD 38spl. 
My normal EDC. Beretta 92A1 9mm Surefire X300U-B + 2 spare 18rnd Mec-Gar mags. Carried in a BC kydex holster. 
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Posted: 5/13/2017 12:46:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which goes back to my point that with a good belt and a good holster that a g19 sized gun is not to large to conceal with a t-shirt or even with a tucked in dress shirt. It doesn't have to be a g19, I just mean that sized gun. There's two ends of the spectrum. The guy with a belt buckle NAA mini-revolver in .22short and the guy with a Glock 17 carried 19+1 with a couple of 33 round stick reloads. Then there is the realist in between who carries something with adequate capacity in a service caliber that they are competent with. I just happen to consider the "floor" to be a 7+ capacity in 9mm and the realistic "ceiling" to be 15 in 9mm for all day, every day "no excuses for not carrying" CCW. The Glock 26 or 19 fit in there perfectly. As do my preferred H&K P30SK and P2000 9mm's. So does a 1911, Walther PPS, S&W Shield, HK45C, XDs9, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree on this topic. After having nearly 700 students come through my CCW classes, I just tend to gear my advice towards what is optimal for the top 20% of CCW's not the top 1%. The top 20% are the people who will carry all the time, everywhere they're legal but aren't 1%'ers "dedicated to the martial arts" so the speak. The lower 80% who only carry when they are in the "bad part of town"... fuck them. LOL. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 12:47:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because there's ALWAYS another level of "worst case scenario". I say plan for 2-3 opponents, you say plan for 4-5, there's always the possibility of 8-10 or 50-100. Besides... the fundamentals don't change no matter the scenario. Tactics > another 4 or 5 rounds of handgun capacity once you're into John Wick levels of violence. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 5:48:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're already willing to entertain that you may need a handgun at all then what's another .87%? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is very true. Considering any use of a handgun in self defense is a statistical anomaly. Now consider the situation that concerns the OP, namely a mob that is not only aggressive but will also press the attack even after rounds are fired. Now I think we are talking about an extreme statistical anomaly out of a field of already rare anomalies. ETA: Not trying to be dismissive over anyone's personal choice in firearms. Ultimately we are the one's carrying, so we should go with what each of us decide is appropriate. My only point was the chance of attack by a mob requiring many rounds expended is going to be an extreme outlier, and I wouldn't use that as the sole basis in my decision. Sometimes I carry a G19. Sometimes I carry a LCP. Sometimes I carry something in between. I really believe situational awareness and good common sense are the most important tools in my toolbox. That said I'm not going to shit in the kind of guy who decides to carry a G19 with a G26 for backup. It's an individual decision. |
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Posted: 5/13/2017 11:47:15 PM EDT
[#27]
The vast majority of defensive shooting ends in 1 to 3 shots. There are exceptions but chances are you will never need to reload. Most criminals will start to flee on the first shot from the victim. There was a thread in the general forum showing videos of civilians shootouts. I couldn't find the thread, maybe someone remembers the link. It's very educational.
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Posted: 5/14/2017 9:52:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm tracking with you perfectly. There's two ends of the spectrum. The guy with a belt buckle NAA mini-revolver in .22short and the guy with a Glock 17 carried 19+1 with a couple of 33 round stick reloads. Then there is the realist in between who carries something with adequate capacity in a service caliber that they are competent with. I just happen to consider the "floor" to be a 7+ capacity in 9mm and the realistic "ceiling" to be 15 in 9mm for all day, every day "no excuses for not carrying" CCW. The Glock 26 or 19 fit in there perfectly. As do my preferred H&K P30SK and P2000 9mm's. So does a 1911, Walther PPS, S&W Shield, HK45C, XDs9, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree on this topic. After having nearly 700 students come through my CCW classes, I just tend to gear my advice towards what is optimal for the top 20% of CCW's not the top 1%. The top 20% are the people who will carry all the time, everywhere they're legal but aren't 1%'ers "dedicated to the martial arts" so the speak. The lower 80% who only carry when they are in the "bad part of town"... fuck them. LOL. I do find that the small single stacks just don't do it for me. I can shoot them ok but my speed and accuracy suffers enough that I choose bigger stuff. I'm not talking slow fire accuracy. I'm talking one handed, compramized positions etc. I don't have a problem with 7-8 rounds in a gun that I can shoot fast, accurately, and reload efficiently. Guns like my cw9, or the sheild, g43, etc are just too small. I was helping someone out with there g42 the other day. He was, predictibly, shooting low and left. The gun was very accurate and the recoil was non existent. The problem was that it's so small that the guns owner couldn't get a consistent trigger pull or grip. There's definitely potential there though. |
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Posted: 5/14/2017 9:58:33 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup, no real argument here. I do find that the small single stacks just don't do it for me. I can shoot them ok but my speed and accuracy suffers enough that I choose bigger stuff. I don't have a problem with 7-8 rounds in a gun that I can shoot fast, accurately, and reload efficiently. Guns like my cw9, or the sheild, g43, etc are just too small. I was helping someone out with there g42 the other day. He was, predictibly, shooting low and left. The gun was very accurate and the recoil was non existent. The problem was that it's so small that the guns owner couldn't get a consistent trigger pull or grip. There's definitely potential there though. "I like my guns like I like my boobs". "I want them to fill my hand up, but anything hanging out is just wasted."
I want a full grip, but anything hanging out beyond my pinky finger just makes concealing it that much harder for very little gain. Anything that doesn't fill up my hand is also a compromise where the negatives start to outweigh the positives. |
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Posted: 5/14/2017 10:07:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My NSFW answer about choosing a CCW pistol is: "I like my guns like I like my boobs". "I want them to fill my hand up, but anything hanging out is just wasted."
I want a full grip, but anything hanging out beyond my pinky finger just makes concealing it that much harder for very little gain. Anything that doesn't fill up my hand is also a compromise where the negatives start to outweigh the positives. 
I'll drink to that 
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Posted: 5/14/2017 5:43:10 PM EDT
[#31]
LOL
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Posted: 5/14/2017 5:45:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Can you hit anything with your XD-S?
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Posted: 5/15/2017 12:16:04 AM EDT
[#33]
Pretty decent with it.
Not shoot a quarter at 25 yards, but decent |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 5:27:42 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty decent with it. Not shoot a quarter at 25 yards, but decent The David Jackson story is a good case of properly ID and prioritizing which criminal to shoot first. Two arm robbers, 1 with the pistol and the other a long gun. He went with the criminal with the handgun and double tapped him. Than move his attention toward the long gunman. He missed. He was lucky tho the first gunman he shot got up and start running. If he didn't flee things might have not turn out well. Fighting multiple criminals is hard because there always a chance the criminals you shot might get backup while you engaging other targets. News report. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iV0oqnaCUY David Jackson story. IIRC 3 shots fired from his gun. 2 on this first guy and one on the other (missed). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2NV6dgYom0 Commercial on the shooting is being air on Youtube by US Concealed Carry. I saw the commercial and was interested why he didn't go after the guy with the long gun first. He viewed the guy with the handgun was more likely to use his firearms than the other criminal. http://try.usconcealedcarry.net/trueview-exclusive-access-to-davids-story/?tID=58b468c7cd08e&GA_network=ytv&GA_device=c&GA_campaign=743803320&GA_adgroup=41636283105&GA_target=male&GA_placement=youtube.com&GA_creative=193250907598&GA_extension=&GA_keyword=&GA_loc_physical_ms=9008543&GA_landingpage=http://try.usconcealedcarry.net/trueview-exclusive-access-to-davids-story/&gclid=CjwKEAjw3drIBRCOwfC-_qqyjQ8SJADvoWQpKbDBQqpZUpYDNWf2g1H3P3wzf0bkHz4yZn5YHM4G-xoCN23w_wcB |
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Posted: 5/16/2017 2:17:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Post could be good, but your grammar and syntax are so poor that I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say.
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Posted: 5/16/2017 2:08:27 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 5/20/2017 11:39:54 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Remember dude, rats tend to scatter- You won't ever need to shoot 17 people. At least I hope to god you never have a scenario straight out of the Walking Dead like that.... |
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Posted: 5/20/2017 11:42:25 AM EDT
[#38]
I had several different XDs I sold them all and went with the G19 it is lighter to carry and you can also get 32 round mags.
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Posted: 5/20/2017 11:58:15 AM EDT
[#39]
Why I carry an XD9 fullsize. Who cares if you print slightly.
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Posted: 5/21/2017 4:53:48 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 5/21/2017 4:56:58 PM EDT
[#41]
I'm sure it's already been said, but buy a glock+ spare mag
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Posted: 5/21/2017 5:01:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryIs that an NFA item? |
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Posted: 5/21/2017 7:06:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's awesome. Is that an NFA item? |
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Posted: 5/21/2017 9:12:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryI couldnt believe what happened next.
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Posted: 5/21/2017 11:28:40 PM EDT
[#45]
I carry a 9mm Shield every day. I keep the 7 rounder in the pistol and carry 2 spare 8 rounders in my pocket. I can carry that loadout during the hottest of weather when I am wearing the least amount of clothes and do so comfortably with good concealment. I am comfortable with this choice and feel it will get me through most situations that can be solved with a handgun. There are times when I go a bit heavier (carrying up to a full size Glock 17 with a spare mag), but that little Shield is my every day companion that works with any of my clothing choices and any season.
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Posted: 5/27/2017 4:05:29 PM EDT
[#46]
I wouldn't say either is wrong. The main advantage to me with a larger handgun is it is much easier to aim and control. Capacity is nice if there is more than one attacker, or there is a mass shooter.
I think training is most important but I am tall and have a good pancake holster so I just carry a full-size gun. If I expected a pistol fight I would probably bring a shotgun though. |
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Posted: 5/27/2017 4:45:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which goes back to my point that with a good belt and a good holster that a g19 sized gun is not to large to conceal with a t-shirt or even with a tucked in dress shirt. It doesn't have to be a g19, I just mean that sized gun. I do work in places that have a no gun policy (they aren't legally posted to keep you out nor is it against the law it's just the policy) I have to pocket carry so no way they can see my gun. ETA not trying to be a dick just saying that doesn't work in every situation |
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Posted: 5/27/2017 7:23:34 PM EDT
[#48]
get a 686 plus - if you gonna have 7 bullets make them 180 grain hollow point 357 magnums
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Posted: 5/31/2017 8:45:07 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That just isn't true depending on your job \ activity required...... I do work in places that have a no gun policy (they aren't legally posted to keep you out nor is it against the law it's just the policy) I have to pocket carry so no way they can see my gun. ETA not trying to be a dick just saying that doesn't work in every situation Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Which goes back to my point that with a good belt and a good holster that a g19 sized gun is not to large to conceal with a t-shirt or even with a tucked in dress shirt. It doesn't have to be a g19, I just mean that sized gun. I do work in places that have a no gun policy (they aren't legally posted to keep you out nor is it against the law it's just the policy) I have to pocket carry so no way they can see my gun. ETA not trying to be a dick just saying that doesn't work in every situation I think people would be shocked at how easy it is to conceal guns with some of the newer holsters out there. |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 10:36:18 AM EDT
[#50]
I went from USP45 > USP9 > G26 (with 17rd backup mag) > shield 9 (14 total rounds). I live,work,play in safer areas so ease of concealment and light weight is more important. I played my first 2 holes of golf yesterday with it in my pocket before noticing and moving to the bag. I accepted the advice long ago that carrying easily 100% of the time is better than more rounds/better gun 80% of the time.
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