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Posted: 6/7/2002 9:00:58 PM EDT
So I'm looking at getting a handgun in August for concealed carry. I've narrowed my choices (so far) to the full size HK USP .45 or a Sig P220.

So, I'm looking for pros and cons of both that anybody would care to share. Note that I also would like to carry it with a round in the chamber all ready to go.

Thanks for your opinions all.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 11:38:19 PM EDT
I would go for a USP Compact .45 they are about 850 brand new but I just bought a .40 stainless steel compact for 650 w/tax.. still has the lifetime warranty too... all hk's are lifetime warranty
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 1:29:29 AM EDT
Well, they are both very fine pistols. I would lean towards the 220 just because my SiGs have never, ever let me down. I've never had a jam, a missfire, a FTE, a FTF, nothing. They have just plain worked.

And the 220 has to be the most accurate, most reliable out of the box pistol of them all. It's DA/SA so carry with one in the chamber is no problem but there are no external safeties that you need to deal with.

Keep us posted and let us know which you get.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 3:25:15 AM EDT
I've owned both the P220 and the HK/USP .45 fullsize. Both are fine guns. I never had any problem with either. The HK just seemed a bit bulkier, and as the mag is a double-wide, the grip is considerably thicker. I kept the P220 and sold the HK after realizing I wasn't really shooting the HK much at all.

If the HK grip feels fine to you, it would make an excellent pistol for you. Just pick which one feels best. They are both top line guns.

Ross
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 8:12:29 AM EDT
SIG P220 or P245. GREAT single-action trigger on the SIG, whereas with the USP series, IMHO it feels like a squirt gun. Since I'm a high-thumb 1911 guy, I am always pressing down on the HK's function lever too much and de-cocking the piece. I know that's operator error, but when you have shot a particular style for years, it's a little hard to un-learn. Quality on both pieces is outstanding, but I just feel that I like the SIG much better.

Again, SIG all the way.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 9:02:13 AM EDT
I gotta go with the Sig........

P.S. Get the night sights, they're worth it
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 10:07:03 AM EDT
I would go with the Sig P220. Of course, I am prejudiced, as I have a P220, a P228, and a P229. Never a hiccup from any of them.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 10:58:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Vermilion:
I would go for a USP Compact .45 they are about 850 brand new but I just bought a .40 stainless steel compact for 650 w/tax.. still has the lifetime warranty too... all hk's are lifetime warranty



I played around with a compact at the store and just didn't like how it felt in my hand.

I was in a hurry that day and didn't have time to play with a Sig. I'll have to go back judging from the responses.

The lack of an external safety on the Sig doesn't present a problem carrying it loaded and ready? I'm just checking since I don't want to blow part of my ass off.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 2:40:30 PM EDT
ar15.com is pro sig and glock BAH! i'd buy a sig but i'd buy a HK first and never ever buy a glock
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 2:41:04 PM EDT
I have two USP's in .45, fullsize and compact. Both are great guns, have served me well with no complaints. I have shot different sigs over the years and they are good guns too, just not for me. Either way, you won't be disappointed.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 5:02:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By Vermilion:
I would go for a USP Compact .45 they are about 850 brand new but I just bought a .40 stainless steel compact for 650 w/tax.. still has the lifetime warranty too... all hk's are lifetime warranty



I played around with a compact at the store and just didn't like how it felt in my hand.

I was in a hurry that day and didn't have time to play with a Sig. I'll have to go back judging from the responses.

The lack of an external safety on the Sig doesn't present a problem carrying it loaded and ready? I'm just checking since I don't want to blow part of my ass off.



Yeah, check them both out and just go with what you like best. They are both mechanically fine guns. It's just a matter of preference for most users.

The lack of an external safety was no problem for the US Army (who has always required an external safety) to adopt the P228 as the M11. It's about as safe as a revolver when you lower the hammer with the decocking lever.

Ross
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 5:21:30 PM EDT
Make sure you check out the kimber pro carry..........before you spend that hard earned $$$$$....................
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 7:54:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:
The lack of an external safety was no problem for the US Army (who has always required an external safety) to adopt the P228 as the M11. It's about as safe as a revolver when you lower the hammer with the decocking lever.

Ross

When did they do that? Not doubting, as I have a P228. Hell, I think it's great, I just never knew that it officially gotten a military designation. Does the Navy also call it an M11?
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 5:03:28 AM EDT
The M11 is generally carried by undercover MPs, detectives, or security personnel with small hands. Same-same for the Navy. My niece carries one in the field working for ONI.
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 12:58:45 PM EDT

When did they do that? Not doubting, as I have a P228. Hell, I think it's great, I just never knew that it officially gotten a military designation. Does the Navy also call it an M11?


They did it quite a few years ago. Originally they were supposed to adopt the M9 in big and little versions. That's why the P226/P228 came about. It was Sig's entry into the XM9 trials. Beretta entered the 92 and 92 compact. Other competitors entered big and small as well. The idea was winner take all, and a reduced logistics problem in that the parts would be the same except the few that were different size. Even the mags would be able to fit from the larger to the smaller as well. At that point, most of the military was using a 2" .38 spec revolver for concealment.

When both the Sig and Beretta passed, and the Beretta was given the nod because of overall cost (though there's alot of talk aobut cruise missles in Italy, etc). There was a big stink over that and eventually there was then a competition held to determine the compact service auto. Beretta and Sig, and possibly S&W (I can't remember) entered their small guns and the P228 won there. So the military adopted the P228 as the M11. The number M10 was already being used for the S&W model 10 revolvers we had, so that's why it skips a number.

Alot of folks say the military was just trying to throw a bone to Sig to get the political heat off. The Congress guys where the Sig was to be built in the US (by Saco Defense) were pretty hot about loosing.

As for the nomenclature, the pistols were purchase under the JSSAP (Joint Services Small Arms Program) which was set-up to buy the same pistol for all the services and the USCG instead of the hodge-podge of stuff we had. The designation was standardized throughout the military because of that. The nomenclature itself is assigned by the leading agency and then it's used by all the services so that there aren't different manuals having to be printed, etc just because the same equipment is being used by different services.

The Mk19 automatic grenade launcher was developed by the Navy for patrol boats, so it was assigned a Navy designation (i.e. Mark). It's the Mk 19 in the Army even though the Army doesn't use a Mk type designation system. That's because the USN was the lead agency, and the name stays the same.

Ross
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 7:17:55 PM EDT
I own and love a HK USP45, but it is not my choice CWC. I carry a Glock 26 & it is on the outter limits of carry size IMHO (I live in the Houston area). I think you picked two excellent, BIG, guns for CWC. I think both of the mentioned guns are great, but not CWC. I think you should recosider your choices.
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 7:48:40 PM EDT
Also consider the compact versions of the pistols mentioned. Sig and HK are the best, IMO.
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 9:06:02 PM EDT
yes Sig and HK are my favorite.. If I didn't have enough money for a HK and HAD TO HAVE a pistol it would be a Sig.. and if not a Sig a AR15 lol
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 3:15:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By uncleSAM:
I own and love a HK USP45, but it is not my choice CWC. I carry a Glock 26 & it is on the outter limits of carry size IMHO (I live in the Houston area). I think you picked two excellent, BIG, guns for CWC. I think both of the mentioned guns are great, but not CWC. I think you should recosider your choices.



I just can't seem to find a compact .45 that feels right in my hand. *shrug
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 5:06:59 AM EDT
put a hogue grip on it spade.. i put one on my hk Match and its wonderful... pain in the ass too
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 7:23:25 AM EDT
HK USP fullsize
Pros:
Light
Accurate
Reliable
Can be treated as SA auto
Fairly rust resistant

Cons:
Huge, built for hi-cap mags
Sharp checkering irritates some hands
Expensive
Customer service problematic

SIG P220
Pros:
Accurate
Fairly slim grip - single stack mags
Reliable
Not extremely expensive

Cons:
Blued version is slightly rust-prone
Requires learning DA/SA trigger transition

If I had my choice, I'd pick the SIG. I've had the USP and didn't care for it.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 2:43:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:


Cons:

Requires learning DA/SA trigger transition




How difficult is this?
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 6:00:20 PM EDT
HK pro= lifetime warranty BAM!
Link Posted: 6/12/2002 6:25:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By ken_mays:


Cons:

Requires learning DA/SA trigger transition




How difficult is this?



I don't think it's especially difficult but if you own several different types of guns it can be disconcerting to go from a long heavy pull on the first shot to a light, short pull on subsequent shots.

The key to overcoming this transition is a lot of practice.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 9:19:30 PM EDT
I got an HK but am dying to pick up a 220. Maybe even another HK -tactical? Bottom line, get both and have some fun. As far as CCW, those are kinda big so when the time comes I was thinking of the sig2340.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 4:16:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By ken_mays:


Cons:

Requires learning DA/SA trigger transition




How difficult is this?



No Big Deal. The secret is lots and lots of dry fire practice. pretend that it's a revover and just dry fire the hell out of it. It will show next time at the range.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 10:34:10 PM EDT
Try, or at least handle, everything that you're considering and trust yourself.
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