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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 5/18/2002 2:42:02 PM EDT
One thing that many gun owners forget is that once things move inside a circle of about twnty feet from you, almost anyone can get to you before you can draw and fire. Inside that twenty foot circle a knife can be one of your best single defensive weapons, perhaps the ONLY defensive weapon.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 6:03:53 PM EDT


I have this knife. Does that count?
One could gut somebody pretty bad with it.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 9:55:12 PM EDT
>>One thing that many gun owners forget is that once things move inside a circle of about twnty feet from you, almost anyone can get to you before you can draw and fire. Inside that twenty foot circle a knife can be one of your best single defensive weapons, perhaps the ONLY defensive weapon.<<
Why? Do you think you will be able to draw and open your knife faster than you will be able to draw and fire your gun??
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 4:07:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2002 4:09:55 AM EDT by sig_230]

Originally Posted By darm441:
>>One thing that many gun owners forget is that once things move inside a circle of about twnty feet from you, almost anyone can get to you before you can draw and fire. Inside that twenty foot circle a knife can be one of your best single defensive weapons, perhaps the ONLY defensive weapon.<<
Why? Do you think you will be able to draw and open your knife faster than you will be able to draw and fire your gun??



I strongly recommend a fixed blade knife for defense. If someone feels that they can not carry a fixed blade, then I recommend one of the better fighting folders. These can be opened and used effectively even after you and your opponent are physically engaged while a firearm is far less effective.

We all, simply because we frequent this or other similar boards, are firearm oriented. In fact, we are a subset of all firearm owners. We are handgun owners.

There is an old saying, in fact I've even seen it as people's signature, "Never take a knife to a gun fight". Unfortunately, in the real world, a knife will often win over a handgun.

There is a drill called the Tueller Drill
. Basically, this drill demonstrates that a knife welding opponent can cover 20 feet or more and engage you before you can draw your weapon. In this type of attack, your best response runs nearly 180 degrees from the normal handgun related response.

When faced by a rushing opponent weilding a knife, your best option is retreating while moving towards your opponents strong side, using your strong hand and arm to slap, shove or pat the opponent towards their weak side and using your weak hand to draw and use a knife.

Most if not all of us bought a handgun with the idea that someday we might have to use it for self defense. But being prepared requires that we have a series of defensive talents and procedures. In many areas of the country we can not legally carry a handgun. Even where carry is legal, there are places where handguns are prohibited.

We need a layered approach to self defense. The first and most importand layer is awarmess. It's always better to avoid a confrontation is at all possible. When confrontation is unavoidable, we still need to have a flexible set of options that can be used as required.

If part of your mind set is self defense, a good knife and the skill (read practice) to use it is essential.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 9:19:46 AM EDT
>>I strongly recommend a fixed blade knife for defense. If someone feels that they can not carry a fixed blade, then I recommend one of the better fighting folders.<<
You seem to have missed the question, which was why do you think you will be able to bring the knife into play any faster than the handgun?
>>These can be opened and used effectively even after you and your opponent are physically engaged while a firearm is far less effective.<<
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true as a blanket statement. Sometimes the firearm is more effective, sometimes the knife is. Much will depend on your opponent's skill as well as your ability. The knife has some advantages, the gun has some advantages.
>>When faced by a rushing opponent weilding a knife, your best option is retreating while moving towards your opponents strong side, using your strong hand and arm to slap, shove or pat the opponent towards their weak side and using your weak hand to draw and use a knife.<<
That is AN option, but to claim it is the BEST option is quite a stretch. I might contend that your best option is to execute a similar move, but use your wweak hand to slap, shove, pat, while you use your strong hand to draw your handgun and shoot your opponent.
>>Unfortunately, in the real world, a knife will often win over a handgun.<<
I've been investigating assaults for close to 40 years now, and I can tell you that when one person has a knife and another has a gun, the gunman wins in a huge majority of the incidents.
>>There is a drill called the Tueller Drill. Basically, this drill demonstrates that a knife welding opponent can cover 20 feet or more and engage you before you can draw your weapon. In this type of attack, your best response runs nearly 180 degrees from the normal handgun related response.<<
Thta is not what the Tueller Drill is about. The Tueller Drill illustrates that within a certain distance (usually given as 21') an opponent can close with you faster than you can deploy a weapon and stop them. It might be a knife wielding opponent, it might be a club wielding opponent, it might be an unarmed opponent. The Tueller Drill does not specify any particular weapon on your part--you may be armed with a gun, or a knife, or a club, etc. The whole point of the Tueller Drill is to show you that once somebody is inside the reaction zone you cannot just stand there and beat them, you have to move off the line of attack. IT does nothing to advocate using a knife over a gun in that situation.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 10:44:41 AM EDT
Sig230,

You can rationalize your knives anyway you want to, but........never mind, I don't think we are going to change your opinion.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 6:37:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
>>I strongly recommend a fixed blade knife for defense. If someone feels that they can not carry a fixed blade, then I recommend one of the better fighting folders.<<
You seem to have missed the question, which was why do you think you will be able to bring the knife into play any faster than the handgun?
>>These can be opened and used effectively even after you and your opponent are physically engaged while a firearm is far less effective.<<
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true as a blanket statement. Sometimes the firearm is more effective, sometimes the knife is. Much will depend on your opponent's skill as well as your ability. The knife has some advantages, the gun has some advantages.
>>When faced by a rushing opponent weilding a knife, your best option is retreating while moving towards your opponents strong side, using your strong hand and arm to slap, shove or pat the opponent towards their weak side and using your weak hand to draw and use a knife.<<
That is AN option, but to claim it is the BEST option is quite a stretch. I might contend that your best option is to execute a similar move, but use your wweak hand to slap, shove, pat, while you use your strong hand to draw your handgun and shoot your opponent.
>>Unfortunately, in the real world, a knife will often win over a handgun.<<
I've been investigating assaults for close to 40 years now, and I can tell you that when one person has a knife and another has a gun, the gunman wins in a huge majority of the incidents.
>>There is a drill called the Tueller Drill. Basically, this drill demonstrates that a knife welding opponent can cover 20 feet or more and engage you before you can draw your weapon. In this type of attack, your best response runs nearly 180 degrees from the normal handgun related response.<<
Thta is not what the Tueller Drill is about. The Tueller Drill illustrates that within a certain distance (usually given as 21') an opponent can close with you faster than you can deploy a weapon and stop them. It might be a knife wielding opponent, it might be a club wielding opponent, it might be an unarmed opponent. The Tueller Drill does not specify any particular weapon on your part--you may be armed with a gun, or a knife, or a club, etc. The whole point of the Tueller Drill is to show you that once somebody is inside the reaction zone you cannot just stand there and beat them, you have to move off the line of attack. IT does nothing to advocate using a knife over a gun in that situation.



Darm

Try to learn how to respond so that it's not SOOOO much work trying to figure out what you're saying.

Your comments at the end of your post related to the TD is the justification for everything that I said. Thank you.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 10:01:22 PM EDT
>>Try to learn how to respond so that it's not SOOOO much work trying to figure out what you're saying.<<
The use of the > and < marks have been used in internet messages for years. I realize a lot of you newbies to the net want everything handed too you on a platter so it is easy for you, but I like the old method just fine.
>>Your comments at the end of your post related to the TD is the justification for everything that I said. Thank you.<<
If that is what you got out of it, you completely misunderstood it. BTW, still waiting for you to explain how you have time to access your knife if you don't have time to access your gun.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 10:57:25 PM EDT
I have one of these


Was thrown in for free when I bought my HK USP Match .45 a few days ago... you could put some good visceration on someone with it just like ilikelegs knife.. but im sure his was costly and wont leave that stand... plus it looks a little bulky but very cool nonetheless.

oh yea.. if you have a knife and your attacker has one also YOU ARE going to get cut, slashed, or stabbed it's going to happen maybe a .00001% chance it won't
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 3:36:53 AM EDT
Anyone know how I can mount my bayonet-ette on my Kimber? ;)



note: Shown on top of my discreet carry case project, a Ryobi Clutch Driver case I picked up at a second hand store for $1.09 :) Waiting on the foam now. Decided to go with eggcrate foam instead of solid foam with cutouts. This way I can throw in my H&K or Kimber or Ruger MK II at will.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 3:56:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2002 4:17:47 AM EDT by sig_230]

Originally Posted By darm441:
>>Try to learn how to respond so that it's not SOOOO much work trying to figure out what you're saying.<<
The use of the > and < marks have been used in internet messages for years. I realize a lot of you newbies to the net want everything handed too you on a platter so it is easy for you, but I like the old method just fine.
>>Your comments at the end of your post related to the TD is the justification for everything that I said. Thank you.<<
If that is what you got out of it, you completely misunderstood it. BTW, still waiting for you to explain how you have time to access your knife if you don't have time to access your gun.



Darm

I have no more interest in arguing with you here than I do on any of the other forums that you troll.

Have a good day.

For others that may be interested.

The reason that I suggest that you move towards your attackers strong hand as you retreat is threefold. First, you take the attackers weak hand out out of the equation. Your immediate purpose is to avoid being stabbed, hit, beating or grabbed during the first moments of the encounter. Second, it also gives you your strong hand, the one with the greatest strength, speed, dexterity and eye-hand coordination, to push, slap or shove your assailant out of the way. And third, it allows you the best chance to then rotate behind the attacker which is his most vulnerable point.

There are many other schools of thought on self defense, grappling, pressure points and the dexterity moves found in many martial arts. They can all be effective and certainly are great. Unfortunately, if you are like me, you will be outclassed by most potential opponents in those areas.

Link Posted: 5/20/2002 6:40:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
>>Try to learn how to respond so that it's not SOOOO much work trying to figure out what you're saying.<<

The use of the > and < marks have been used in internet messages for years. I realize a lot of you newbies to the net want everything handed too you on a platter so it is easy for you, but I like the old method just fine.

>>Your comments at the end of your post related to the TD is the justification for everything that I said. Thank you.<<

If that is what you got out of it, you completely misunderstood it. BTW, still waiting for you to explain how you have time to access your knife if you don't have time to access your gun.




darm,

At least consider using the "Enter" key to creat a few empty lines between your bracketed quotes and your reply. See above as an example.

That would be a several <CR>'s to create a couple of <LF>'s...


Moving off the line of attack is a Real Good Thing (tm), and whether you go to the weak or strong side will depend on the situation and your training. Either way, it's gonna be trouble for all the reasons mentioned above.

A better question, IMO, is would you be better served with a gun and a knife, or with a gun and another gun? I'd rather have the knife, and if I had to choose between carrying EITHER a gun OR a knife, I'd pick the knife... it's a more versatile tool.

Comments?
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 10:59:47 AM EDT
>>I have no more interest in arguing with you here than I do on any of the other forums that you troll.<<
LOL!! In other words, you cannot give a decent reply to the question of why you think you will have time to draw your knife if there isn't time to draw your gun. That's fine, nobody else has ever been able to do so either. Interesting that you think it trolling when somebody asks you to use a little logic to defend your position.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:05:02 AM EDT
>>I'd rather have the knife, and if I had to choose between carrying EITHER a gun OR a knife, I'd pick the knife... it's a more versatile tool.<<
No disagreement there. I carry my knife with easy access by the off hand, as it allows me to use it during weapon retention. And if restricted to one or the other, I've had to use my knife far more than I have had to use a handgun. If someone is attacking me, however, the firearm is far more effective for personal defense than is the knife.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:27:31 PM EDT
Dscott

You make some great points. There are more and more places where we can't carry firearms these days and it is comforting to have the knife along.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:56:19 AM EDT
Speaking strictly for myself, if I'm headed someplace where I think a concealed weapon might be needed, I will carry a gun in spite of what the property owner's opinion is. I just make damn sure it actually is concealed.

Most places around here that ban concealed weapons include knives by default. If you're going to flout the rules, might as well have something effective. Of course I carry a knife everywhere I go anyway, but I'd hate to rely on it for defense. It sees far more use cutting boxes and such.
Link Posted: 5/27/2002 8:06:19 PM EDT
For a moment consider adopting the statement IT DEPENDS.

Both are great tools, but so is a hammer or a screwdriver. A toolbox is made up of a lot of tools to handle a lot of different jobs (and make cool weapons.

A well rounded education in defense is a great ideas. I have 12 serious years in the martial arts. I have multiple black belt ranking in hand-to-hand arts, and weapons arts (this is just giving my backgound perspective). I'm now, again, "re-working" my firearms training because I'm getting a little rusty after a couple of years away from handgun training.

From a short distance away, I would rather face a handgun or rifle, for a long distance away I would rather face an edged weapon. If I'm aware I won't have to face either decision.

BTW, There's no reason to think that you have to be cut by a knife wielding opponent. IT DEPENDS!

A serious study should be made of both weapons defense and weapons retention (e.g., knife and gun).
Consider just a few different scenerios: Hand-to-hand, hand-to-knife, knife-to-knife, hand-to-gun, gun-to-gun, and keep creating variations. Now add distance to each of the above, and then add different weapons. IT DEPENDS. Many, many murders happen with a kitchen butcher knife or with scissors, or with screwdriver (see how I've brought it back around). IT DEPENDS! Carry both and become educated on their use and misuse after your "awareness" defense has failed.

No offense meant to anyone. These are just my opinions.

Jeff
(jallen@unt.edu)
Link Posted: 5/27/2002 8:52:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 5:25:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricE:
During the past 12 years that I have had a CCW permit, I have always backed my handgun up with an excellent edged weapon.

sig_230 wrote: "Inside that twenty foot circle a knife can be one of your best single defensive weapons, perhaps the ONLY defensive weapon".

My views exactly - especially if the man with the knife is in good physical condition, and has the strength (and guts) to use the weapon to it's fullest potential.



Battle Rifle,
Handgun/Thrown Projectile
Knife/Edged Weapon,
Any Other Weapon,
Empty Hands

You will find this combination of layered defensive and offensive weapons/shields on battlefields around the world. Makes sense to me.

Jeff
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 2:56:25 PM EDT
P-11 or Springfield .45 1st.
P-32 2nd
Then down to the CRKT Sampson's KISS.

Sorry, If it's 20 ft. and I pull the gun, and the BG is on me, that just means I don't have to worry as much about aiming.

When I can't carry my pistol, I carry a Tac Folder on each side. I plan to have both out if I can for that ultimate surprise..."what is that sticking out of my throat, I just blocked a knife in his right hand?"
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 4:47:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2002 4:48:28 PM EDT by darm441]
Still waiting for somebody to explain why you have time to draw your knife if you don't have time to draw your gun. Doesn't make much sense to say you won't have time to draw and fire but you will have time to draw and cut.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 6:00:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
Still waiting for somebody to explain why you have time to draw your knife if you don't have time to draw your gun. Doesn't make much sense to say you won't have time to draw and fire but you will have time to draw and cut.



That could be because no one said that you would have time to draw a knife instead of a gun.

What I said was that the gun centric response ties up your best defense, your strong side, with little chance of it helping. By trying to draw a gun you lose the defensive capability of your strong side, often both sides. Your most important thing is to survive the initial attack, but in the gun centric response, a tie is a loss.

The knife centric defense is to retreat and move towards your weak side. This give you your strong side to push, pat, shove or punch the attack away. Your weak side is free to draw your knife and to then respond as the first rush is blocked. In this case, even a tie goes to you.

The object of all of this is to try to get people to think about alternative responses to the gun centric paradigm.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 7:27:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 7:33:14 AM EDT by darm441]
Sorry! Double posted!
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 7:30:22 AM EDT
>>That could be because no one said that you would have time to draw a knife instead of a gun.<<
OK, then your claim is that when one has the time to draw and use the gun or the knife one is better off drawing and using the knife? You either have time to draw or you don't have time to draw.
>>What I said was that the gun centric response ties up your best defense, your strong side, with little chance of it helping.<<
But your strong side is not your best defense. Off side defends, strong side attacks. That is what is natural and that is what most knife systems train. If you have time to defensively block and draw a knife, you have time to defensively block and draw a firearm.
>>The object of all of this is to try to get people to think about alternative responses to the gun centric paradigm.<<
Why purposely choose a less effective response? I can appreciate a knife, I carry one, but in the defensive realm it exists to help me get to my firearm. If you have time to use the gun or the knife, the gun has been shown to be far more advantageous.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 7:42:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:26:15 AM EDT
>>That "claim" was never made. Re-read the posts and think outside the box.<<
That is why the claim has a question mark after it, it is a question. If that is not what is being claimed, I'm not sure what is being claimed. You either have time to draw or you don't. Whether it is a knife or a gun is fairly irrelevant to the time factor.
>>Less effective? If you have read several books on/or taken courses in CQB implementing the knife, you would know that this is not the case.<<
Having taken courses on CQB, and having taught CQB, and having read lots of books on CQB, and having been involved in a pretty fair amount of real CQB, I know that is exactly the case. There are times when the knife becomes the preferred tool for certain logistic or tactical reasons, but if there is a choice between the two the firearm is the weapon of default/choice because of its greater effectiveness.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 5:46:53 PM EDT
Ok Darm441. You won again.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:33:59 PM EDT
It's not a matter of who won here on the forum, it is a matter of whether the information being tossed around is accurate or not. When techniques that are 20 years out of date are advocated, somebody needs to step up and say "Hey, there is a better way." When people are advocating tactics that aren't top-line, somebody needs to step up and say "wait a minute, that isn't right."
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:52:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2002 8:52:04 AM EDT by EricE]
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 11:45:48 PM EDT
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