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Posted: 9/10/2010 3:10:42 AM EDT
I own a glock, couple of XD's, Beretta, and colt handguns and now want a higher end gun for mostly range and Target maybe home defence.
Not sure what models to start looking into so I'm asking ARFCOM for some advice.
Sig or hk? Why? What's model and why?
I'm looking for a 9mm or .45
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:29:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 4:30:35 AM EDT by squirrelslayer1]
H&K is the best. Period. Compared to a Sig(whose QC has gone waaaay down hill lately) there is no comparison.

here is mine:
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:53:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:57:50 AM EDT
current production: HK

USP or HKP2000

if older sig, P226/8 or P220
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:59:35 AM EDT
HK are definitely nice. Of the 2 go HK where you can carry condition 1. Personally I'd go Glock or M&P and I don't have either.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:06:29 AM EDT
I say go with.....................................................HK.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:51:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pitbullcrazyinky:
I own a glock, couple of XD's, Beretta, and colt handguns and now want a higher end gun for mostly range and Target maybe home defence.
Not sure what models to start looking into so I'm asking ARFCOM for some advice.
Sig or hk? Why? What's model and why?
I'm looking for a 9mm or .45


Try the HK P30 in 9mm and you will never want another 9mm.. lol
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:54:03 AM EDT
HK gets my vote.

This poll will be an interesting follow up to the Sig vs HK thread from a few weeks ago.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:27:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 6:31:26 AM EDT by Coltman77]
HK.



My P30 L when it was brand new. An awesome pistol.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:07:29 AM EDT
I'd sure like some nice tasty pie.





But given the choice of modern production versions I'd take an HK over a Sig.

Now if it were a Sig 210, or a Walther P5c, well then, that's another matter entirely.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:45:42 AM EDT


You know you want it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:50:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 8:50:15 AM EDT by bluefalcon]
I voted HK even though they're overpriced, they hate you, and their bullets go backwards.

I'm personally not fond of Sigs because they fit my hand funny and I don't like their trigger. It's a very subjective thing and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them. I like the arrangement of HK's trigger and safety better.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:17:27 AM EDT
Sig with SRT FTW.

I'd really like to have a 229 Elite Dark. As to the HK, if I wanted a reliable polymer pistol, I could get one for half the price...
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 11:02:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By haydendavid380:
Sig with SRT FTW.

I'd really like to have a 229 Elite Dark. As to the HK, if I wanted a reliable polymer pistol, I could get one for half the price...


Your argument for taking a sig is that you think HK is overpriced?



Atleast HK's work....
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 11:46:26 AM EDT
Of the two mentioned HK is the only real choice. Sig's QC has been in the shitter lately.

Of course as someone else mentioned there are fantastic reliable polymer pistols available in the $500 range which are more than adequate(M&P and Glock...)

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 11:52:58 AM EDT
I have both, older USP 45 and newer Sig P226R. If you can find a decent P226 from early 2000 or the 90's then that would be nice. But HK trumps Sig. Since money doesn't seem to be an issue, HK 45 tactical.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:23:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 2:28:24 PM EDT by MiG-21]
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
[Your argument for taking a sig is that you think HK is overpriced?



Atleast HK's work....


So does my Sig......flawlessly


1992 date code P226
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:51:36 PM EDT
HK Please.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:54:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 2:55:08 PM EDT by Marksman14]
Originally Posted By MiG-21:
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
[Your argument for taking a sig is that you think HK is overpriced?



Atleast HK's work....


So does my Sig......flawlessly


1992 date code P226


When I can start buying brand new 1992 sig 226's again, while I'd still go to HK for many reasons, I'd have no problem recommending Sigs to someone.

Thats not the case. As it stands today from a reliability and durability standpoint, Sig and HK aren't even in the same league.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:57:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Originally Posted By haydendavid380:
Sig with SRT FTW.

I'd really like to have a 229 Elite Dark. As to the HK, if I wanted a reliable polymer pistol, I could get one for half the price...


Your argument for taking a sig is that you think HK is overpriced?



Atleast HK's work....


I have over 1300 rounds through my P220 SAO Compact without a failure of any kind. There was no "breaking in" - it has always just WORKED. I'm not ragging on HKs at all (I've never even held one) but the SIG is reliable, accurate as hell, and cost me $650 or something brand-new.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 3:43:50 PM EDT
There is no competition here. The HK is a much better weapon. Sigs used to be quality firearms, but no more.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 3:48:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 3:48:54 PM EDT by Marksman14]
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Originally Posted By haydendavid380:
Sig with SRT FTW.

I'd really like to have a 229 Elite Dark. As to the HK, if I wanted a reliable polymer pistol, I could get one for half the price...


Your argument for taking a sig is that you think HK is overpriced?



Atleast HK's work....


I have over 1300 rounds through my P220 SAO Compact without a failure of any kind. There was no "breaking in" - it has always just WORKED. I'm not ragging on HKs at all (I've never even held one) but the SIG is reliable, accurate as hell, and cost me $650 or something brand-new.


Really?

Look. Sig obviously puts guns out that work. No question about it.

What we're talking about is quality control. Where they used to put out a minimal amount of lemons, they are now no longer doing that.

Seriously, I know there are new sigs out there that work, as does everyone. But the chance that one will get a lemon is much higher now than it was before.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:21:38 PM EDT
I voted SIG. I like the P220. Also I am not a fan of H&K's mag release. They both would not be my first choice.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:03:40 PM EDT
Sig is my wifey and HK is my mistress
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 2:12:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tommytornado:
I voted SIG. I like the P220. Also I am not a fan of H&K's mag release. They both would not be my first choice.


So what's your first choice?
I'm just looking for ideals for my next purchase.

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 2:29:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pitbullcrazyinky:
Originally Posted By Tommytornado:
I voted SIG. I like the P220. Also I am not a fan of H&K's mag release. They both would not be my first choice.


So what's your first choice?
I'm just looking for ideals for my next purchase.



Glock, HK, M&P or 1911.

They're good combat handguns. Consistent trigger pulls, excellent relability. Thats what its all about.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 3:39:17 AM EDT
Old schoold stamped carbon steel P226/P228 bar none
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 1:40:51 AM EDT
HK. It's not even close.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 6:53:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 1:30:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 1:32:28 PM EDT by S-1]
Why is it always the same few guys that bash Sig in every thread that they can? Has Sig had some issues as of late? Probably, but so have many others. Every single brand of firearm has gone through some issues one way or the other. IMO, Sig had a hard time keeping up with QC when they recieved all of the DHS contracts. It seems to me '08-'09 were bad years for them. Hopefully they can turn that around.

JW, you seem to be pimping the M&P and HK's pretty hard lately. I know of two agencies, one large and one medium sized that recently got rid of their HK's for a couple of resons. One, they complained about HK's customer service, or the lack of it... Two, they recieved M&P's, holsters and mag carriers for practically nothing. Yes, S&W is gving the M&P's away just as Glock did many years ago to gain some ground in the LE market.

I've seen many failures with the S&W's, which has turned me off of them, even though there seems to be quite the following on the forums lately. In talking with the the guys that are now issued the M&P 40's, they seem to have more praise for the new holster that came with them (Safariland ALS). The gun gets a lot of "meh" and shoulder shrugs. Most liked their USP's more.

I have had several Sigs over the years and very rarely have had a malfunction that was not induced by me or the ammo. My most recent P226R, has around 12k through it, probably more and it has not had a malfunction that was not induced by me. I honestly can't say the same about my Glocks. In fact, I will be recieving a new production P228R tomorrow to replace my G19 that has hiccups every now and then, along with chewing the shit out of my hands every time I shoot it. I fully expect the P228R to function just as well as my other Sigs and I believe it will. If it doesn't, you guys will be the first to know.

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:06:15 PM EDT
I've owned a Sig P226 and a Sig P220 and was disappointed in both. They were very heavy in my opinion and didn't fit my fat hand very well. My HK USP compact in 9mm is hands down my favorite handgun to date.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:13:28 PM EDT
I do want to say that it would probably be best for Sig to drop the POS known as the P250 and stop making 10 different versions of each model in the Classic series. Basically, they need to get back to their roots.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:30:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By S-1:
I do want to say that it would probably be best for Sig to drop the POS known as the P250 and stop making 10 different versions of each model in the Classic series. Basically, they need to get back to their roots.


Good point.

Kind of like that old saying "Dance with the one that brung you".

I voted for HK earlier in this thread but I have to say that I have a P220 that's about 2 years old and it's been a great handgun.

Frame made in W. Germany, the rest made in the USA. About 2500 rds. of assorted fmj and jhp ammo through it with zero malfunctions.

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:32:53 PM EDT
I honestly doubt that there is a better handgun out there right now then the HK P30...
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 3:12:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sopho:
I honestly doubt that there is a better handgun out there right now then the HK P30...


Sure there is.

The P30s. Just needs to come out in 9mm
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:27:43 PM EDT
I've got a new 226 .22 Classic with 9mm slide. Thing has run like a champ with either slide since new. Smooth and easy shooting. Both suppress easy and well too.


Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:28:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 10:57:10 PM EDT by thesmiter1]
Originally Posted By S-1:
Why is it always the same few guys that bash Sig in every thread that they can? Has Sig had some issues as of late? Probably, but so have many others. Every single brand of firearm has gone through some issues one way or the other. IMO, Sig had a hard time keeping up with QC when they recieved all of the DHS contracts. It seems to me '08-'09 were bad years for them. Hopefully they can turn that around.

JW, you seem to be pimping the M&P and HK's pretty hard lately. I know of two agencies, one large and one medium sized that recently got rid of their HK's for a couple of resons. One, they complained about HK's customer service, or the lack of it... Two, they recieved M&P's, holsters and mag carriers for practically nothing. Yes, S&W is gving the M&P's away just as Glock did many years ago to gain some ground in the LE market.

I've seen many failures with the S&W's, which has turned me off of them, even though there seems to be quite the following on the forums lately. In talking with the the guys that are now issued the M&P 40's, they seem to have more praise for the new holster that came with them (Safariland ALS). The gun gets a lot of "meh" and shoulder shrugs. Most liked their USP's more.

I have had several Sigs over the years and very rarely have had a malfunction that was not induced by me or the ammo. My most recent P226R, has around 12k through it, probably more and it has not had a malfunction that was not induced by me. I honestly can't say the same about my Glocks. In fact, I will be recieving a new production P228R tomorrow to replace my G19 that has hiccups every now and then, along with chewing the shit out of my hands every time I shoot it. I fully expect the P228R to function just as well as my other Sigs and I believe it will. If it doesn't, you guys will be the first to know.



What's so bad about M&P following the Glock model? Nothing. Who exactly says 'meh' when shooting an M&P compared to a USP? People with some kind of massive, ape-like hands, I'm guessing. And who the hell cares if you've had one Sig from recent times that has managed to survive? No one that matters.

The M&P and the HK P30 are not 'pimped' by JW. They are recommended heavily by the world-class instructors that he learns from. Larry Vickers, Todd G, and Ken Hackathorn. And I guess Hilton Yam likes the M&P. They also seem to agree that Sig quality is in the shitter. Some of the more knowledgeable folk in the shooting world believe this is because Sig is getting the cheapest parts they can obtain, and no longer produce their own parts (the reason that Sigs used to be, and HK is, expensive. now Sigs are just expensive for no reason). But you, like most internet warriors, know better than experts and industry insiders. What the hell do they know, anyway?

And let me ask you this: now that there is a greater possibility of getting a shitty Sig, what makes them worth the premium price that is charged?

You don't have to answer. People are obviously making this shit up because they decided that their old Sigs are awesome, but a bunch of people started hating Sig for no reason and wanted to slander their name, so they all made this up at the same time. Conspiring bastards.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 11:21:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By S-1:
Why is it always the same few guys that bash Sig in every thread that they can? Has Sig had some issues as of late? Probably, but so have many others. Every single brand of firearm has gone through some issues one way or the other. IMO, Sig had a hard time keeping up with QC when they recieved all of the DHS contracts. It seems to me '08-'09 were bad years for them. Hopefully they can turn that around.

JW, you seem to be pimping the M&P and HK's pretty hard lately. I know of two agencies, one large and one medium sized that recently got rid of their HK's for a couple of resons. One, they complained about HK's customer service, or the lack of it... Two, they recieved M&P's, holsters and mag carriers for practically nothing. Yes, S&W is gving the M&P's away just as Glock did many years ago to gain some ground in the LE market.

I've seen many failures with the S&W's, which has turned me off of them, even though there seems to be quite the following on the forums lately. In talking with the the guys that are now issued the M&P 40's, they seem to have more praise for the new holster that came with them (Safariland ALS). The gun gets a lot of "meh" and shoulder shrugs. Most liked their USP's more.

I have had several Sigs over the years and very rarely have had a malfunction that was not induced by me or the ammo. My most recent P226R, has around 12k through it, probably more and it has not had a malfunction that was not induced by me. I honestly can't say the same about my Glocks. In fact, I will be recieving a new production P228R tomorrow to replace my G19 that has hiccups every now and then, along with chewing the shit out of my hands every time I shoot it. I fully expect the P228R to function just as well as my other Sigs and I believe it will. If it doesn't, you guys will be the first to know.



What's so bad about M&P following the Glock model? Nothing. Who exactly says 'meh' when shooting an M&P compared to a USP? People with some kind of massive, ape-like hands, I'm guessing. And who the hell cares if you've had one Sig from recent times that has managed to survive? No one that matters.

The M&P and the HK P30 are not 'pimped' by JW. They are recommended heavily by the world-class instructors that he learns from. Larry Vickers, Todd G, and Ken Hackathorn. And I guess Hilton Yam likes the M&P. They also seem to agree that Sig quality is in the shitter. Some of the more knowledgeable folk in the shooting world believe this is because Sig is getting the cheapest parts they can obtain, and no longer produce their own parts (the reason that Sigs used to be, and HK is, expensive. now Sigs are just expensive for no reason). But you, like most internet warriors, know better than experts and industry insiders. What the hell do they know, anyway?

And let me ask you this: now that there is a greater possibility of getting a shitty Sig, what makes them worth the premium price that is charged?

You don't have to answer. People are obviously making this shit up because they decided that their old Sigs are awesome, but a bunch of people started hating Sig for no reason and wanted to slander their name, so they all made this up at the same time. Conspiring bastards.


JW is the biggest Sig basher on this forum. Go ask Kyle Defoor what he thinks of Sigs being that your name dropping. I will still pay a higher price for a sig cause mine and everyone else I know that has one has never had any problems. I guess being that the flavor of the month is the Smith we should all go trade our old pistols in for the M&P.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:06:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 12:07:08 AM EDT by Marksman14]
Originally Posted By RePp:
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By S-1:
Why is it always the same few guys that bash Sig in every thread that they can? Has Sig had some issues as of late? Probably, but so have many others. Every single brand of firearm has gone through some issues one way or the other. IMO, Sig had a hard time keeping up with QC when they recieved all of the DHS contracts. It seems to me '08-'09 were bad years for them. Hopefully they can turn that around.

JW, you seem to be pimping the M&P and HK's pretty hard lately. I know of two agencies, one large and one medium sized that recently got rid of their HK's for a couple of resons. One, they complained about HK's customer service, or the lack of it... Two, they recieved M&P's, holsters and mag carriers for practically nothing. Yes, S&W is gving the M&P's away just as Glock did many years ago to gain some ground in the LE market.

I've seen many failures with the S&W's, which has turned me off of them, even though there seems to be quite the following on the forums lately. In talking with the the guys that are now issued the M&P 40's, they seem to have more praise for the new holster that came with them (Safariland ALS). The gun gets a lot of "meh" and shoulder shrugs. Most liked their USP's more.

I have had several Sigs over the years and very rarely have had a malfunction that was not induced by me or the ammo. My most recent P226R, has around 12k through it, probably more and it has not had a malfunction that was not induced by me. I honestly can't say the same about my Glocks. In fact, I will be recieving a new production P228R tomorrow to replace my G19 that has hiccups every now and then, along with chewing the shit out of my hands every time I shoot it. I fully expect the P228R to function just as well as my other Sigs and I believe it will. If it doesn't, you guys will be the first to know.



What's so bad about M&P following the Glock model? Nothing. Who exactly says 'meh' when shooting an M&P compared to a USP? People with some kind of massive, ape-like hands, I'm guessing. And who the hell cares if you've had one Sig from recent times that has managed to survive? No one that matters.

The M&P and the HK P30 are not 'pimped' by JW. They are recommended heavily by the world-class instructors that he learns from. Larry Vickers, Todd G, and Ken Hackathorn. And I guess Hilton Yam likes the M&P. They also seem to agree that Sig quality is in the shitter. Some of the more knowledgeable folk in the shooting world believe this is because Sig is getting the cheapest parts they can obtain, and no longer produce their own parts (the reason that Sigs used to be, and HK is, expensive. now Sigs are just expensive for no reason). But you, like most internet warriors, know better than experts and industry insiders. What the hell do they know, anyway?

And let me ask you this: now that there is a greater possibility of getting a shitty Sig, what makes them worth the premium price that is charged?

You don't have to answer. People are obviously making this shit up because they decided that their old Sigs are awesome, but a bunch of people started hating Sig for no reason and wanted to slander their name, so they all made this up at the same time. Conspiring bastards.


JW is the biggest Sig basher on this forum. Go ask Kyle Defoor what he thinks of Sigs being that your name dropping. I will still pay a higher price for a sig cause mine and everyone else I know that has one has never had any problems. I guess being that the flavor of the month is the Smith we should all go trade our old pistols in for the M&P.



I'm quite sure that if Kyle Defoor wants a Sig built to the specs they used to be built to (IE the original NSW run compared to tha later version) then that is exactly what he gets- from what I understand, .mil and contract guns are built to the level of the older guns. If thats the case, they should work. But thats not what we get.

Nobody is arguing that a Sig is a fine gun when it is built they way it should be, but Sig ain't doing them like they used to, and that is not internet BS, that is a fact plain and simple.

There is no reason for a Sig to cost what it does now. They are, quite simply, overpriced firearms built with cost-cutting parts with not nearly the level of QC that the design requires to function like it should.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 2:13:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 2:18:01 AM EDT by S-1]
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By S-1:
Why is it always the same few guys that bash Sig in every thread that they can? Has Sig had some issues as of late? Probably, but so have many others. Every single brand of firearm has gone through some issues one way or the other. IMO, Sig had a hard time keeping up with QC when they recieved all of the DHS contracts. It seems to me '08-'09 were bad years for them. Hopefully they can turn that around.

JW, you seem to be pimping the M&P and HK's pretty hard lately. I know of two agencies, one large and one medium sized that recently got rid of their HK's for a couple of resons. One, they complained about HK's customer service, or the lack of it... Two, they recieved M&P's, holsters and mag carriers for practically nothing. Yes, S&W is gving the M&P's away just as Glock did many years ago to gain some ground in the LE market.

I've seen many failures with the S&W's, which has turned me off of them, even though there seems to be quite the following on the forums lately. In talking with the the guys that are now issued the M&P 40's, they seem to have more praise for the new holster that came with them (Safariland ALS). The gun gets a lot of "meh" and shoulder shrugs. Most liked their USP's more.

I have had several Sigs over the years and very rarely have had a malfunction that was not induced by me or the ammo. My most recent P226R, has around 12k through it, probably more and it has not had a malfunction that was not induced by me. I honestly can't say the same about my Glocks. In fact, I will be recieving a new production P228R tomorrow to replace my G19 that has hiccups every now and then, along with chewing the shit out of my hands every time I shoot it. I fully expect the P228R to function just as well as my other Sigs and I believe it will. If it doesn't, you guys will be the first to know.



What's so bad about M&P following the Glock model? Nothing. Who exactly says 'meh' when shooting an M&P compared to a USP? People with some kind of massive, ape-like hands, I'm guessing. And who the hell cares if you've had one Sig from recent times that has managed to survive? No one that matters.

The M&P and the HK P30 are not 'pimped' by JW. They are recommended heavily by the world-class instructors that he learns from. Larry Vickers, Todd G, and Ken Hackathorn. And I guess Hilton Yam likes the M&P. They also seem to agree that Sig quality is in the shitter. Some of the more knowledgeable folk in the shooting world believe this is because Sig is getting the cheapest parts they can obtain, and no longer produce their own parts (the reason that Sigs used to be, and HK is, expensive. now Sigs are just expensive for no reason). But you, like most internet warriors, know better than experts and industry insiders. What the hell do they know, anyway?

And let me ask you this: now that there is a greater possibility of getting a shitty Sig, what makes them worth the premium price that is charged?

You don't have to answer. People are obviously making this shit up because they decided that their old Sigs are awesome, but a bunch of people started hating Sig for no reason and wanted to slander their name, so they all made this up at the same time. Conspiring bastards.


Simmer down there slick. You're sounding like you have some kind of emotional ties to your plastic wonder. I haven't had just one Sig, but several. I was saying that all of mine have been GTG. I also see hundreds of firearms of different makes and models throughout the year out on the range, through "classes" that I don't have to pay for. I can also form an educated opinion from my experiences such as JW. I've seen malfuntions with firearms of every make, so I'm not just picking on your beloved M&P's.

I also didn't say that the Sig of today has been like the former. In fact, I think that I agreed with some of the scuttlebutt on the net. Do I think it's blown out of proportion? YEP! Just like the Glock "Kaboom" issue, for example. You're into the name dropping, I see, but as you should know, most of those guys that you listed will also point out the weaknesses in every firearm. 1911's, Glocks, Sigs, HK, Beretta's and even the M&P's have their querks, then all have their fanboys get butt hurt when these skilled men point out said problems. Since we're talking about folks in the Special Operations community, the British SAS & SBS, Navy SEALs, Canada's JTF-2, and Polish GROM seem to like their Sigs just fine. I'm sure the M&P does quite well in units of that caliber.... oh wait.... no SOF has adopted the M&P. My bad!

Like I said in my previous post.... this "armchair commando" is picking up a P228R tomorrow, that I WAAAY over paid for. I'm worried that I waisted $699 on a piece of shit new Sig with night sights and short trigger. Anyways, I'll get out and put 4-500 rounds through it this next weekend. I'll report back here if I got a POS or not.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 2:57:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 2:58:39 AM EDT by thesmiter1]
Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By S-1:
Why is it always the same few guys that bash Sig in every thread that they can? Has Sig had some issues as of late? Probably, but so have many others. Every single brand of firearm has gone through some issues one way or the other. IMO, Sig had a hard time keeping up with QC when they recieved all of the DHS contracts. It seems to me '08-'09 were bad years for them. Hopefully they can turn that around.

JW, you seem to be pimping the M&P and HK's pretty hard lately. I know of two agencies, one large and one medium sized that recently got rid of their HK's for a couple of resons. One, they complained about HK's customer service, or the lack of it... Two, they recieved M&P's, holsters and mag carriers for practically nothing. Yes, S&W is gving the M&P's away just as Glock did many years ago to gain some ground in the LE market.

I've seen many failures with the S&W's, which has turned me off of them, even though there seems to be quite the following on the forums lately. In talking with the the guys that are now issued the M&P 40's, they seem to have more praise for the new holster that came with them (Safariland ALS). The gun gets a lot of "meh" and shoulder shrugs. Most liked their USP's more.

I have had several Sigs over the years and very rarely have had a malfunction that was not induced by me or the ammo. My most recent P226R, has around 12k through it, probably more and it has not had a malfunction that was not induced by me. I honestly can't say the same about my Glocks. In fact, I will be recieving a new production P228R tomorrow to replace my G19 that has hiccups every now and then, along with chewing the shit out of my hands every time I shoot it. I fully expect the P228R to function just as well as my other Sigs and I believe it will. If it doesn't, you guys will be the first to know.



What's so bad about M&P following the Glock model? Nothing. Who exactly says 'meh' when shooting an M&P compared to a USP? People with some kind of massive, ape-like hands, I'm guessing. And who the hell cares if you've had one Sig from recent times that has managed to survive? No one that matters.

The M&P and the HK P30 are not 'pimped' by JW. They are recommended heavily by the world-class instructors that he learns from. Larry Vickers, Todd G, and Ken Hackathorn. And I guess Hilton Yam likes the M&P. They also seem to agree that Sig quality is in the shitter. Some of the more knowledgeable folk in the shooting world believe this is because Sig is getting the cheapest parts they can obtain, and no longer produce their own parts (the reason that Sigs used to be, and HK is, expensive. now Sigs are just expensive for no reason). But you, like most internet warriors, know better than experts and industry insiders. What the hell do they know, anyway?

And let me ask you this: now that there is a greater possibility of getting a shitty Sig, what makes them worth the premium price that is charged?

You don't have to answer. People are obviously making this shit up because they decided that their old Sigs are awesome, but a bunch of people started hating Sig for no reason and wanted to slander their name, so they all made this up at the same time. Conspiring bastards.


Simmer down there slick. You're sounding like you have some kind of emotional ties to your plastic wonder. I haven't had just one Sig, but several. I was saying that all of mine have been GTG. I also see hundreds of firearms of different makes and models throughout the year out on the range, through "classes" that I don't have to pay for. I can also form an educated opinion from my experiences such as JW. I've seen malfuntions with firearms of every make, so I'm not just picking on your beloved M&P's.

I also didn't say that the Sig of today has been like the former. In fact, I think that I agreed with some of the scuttlebutt on the net. Do I think it's blown out of proportion? YEP! Just like the Glock "Kaboom" issue, for example. You're into the name dropping, I see, but as you should know, most of those guys that you listed will also point out the weaknesses in every firearm. 1911's, Glocks, Sigs, HK, Beretta's and even the M&P's have their querks, then all have their fanboys get butt hurt when these skilled men point out said problems. Since we're talking about folks in the Special Operations community, the British SAS & SBS, Navy SEALs, Canada's JTF-2, and Polish GROM seem to like their Sigs just fine. I'm sure the M&P does quite well in units of that caliber.... oh wait.... no SOF has adopted the M&P. My bad!

Like I said in my previous post.... this "armchair commando" is picking up a P228R tomorrow, that I WAAAY over paid for. I'm worried that I waisted $699 on a piece of shit new Sig with night sights and short trigger. Anyways, I'll get out and put 4-500 rounds through it this next weekend. I'll report back here if I got a POS or not.


Yes, I have a strange attachment to my imaginary M&P. It's the best pistol that I've ever pretended to own. It's really easy to conceal because no one else can see or touch it, and I keep it loaded with imaginary mercury-tipped hollow points that explode on impact, murdering everyone in a 5 meter radius, as well as any baby seals in the area...

I owned an M&P for a little while. Good firearm. I own a Glock 19 currently. So much for my attachment to my beloved M&Ps. Though I do plan on purchasing a couple in the future, along with an HK P30 and a Glock 26.

The 228 was made in Germany, if I'm not mistaken (seeing that Sig USA stopped production of said model)? Sig USA and the Sig in Germany are two completely different entities, my friend. Your German Sig will more than likely function just like a Sig should.

If you had purchased a Sig USA premium-priced MIM-special, then the possibility for issues would be much higher. Somehow I doubt the operators that you mentioned use Sig USA MIM-specials...

Nothing is wrong with using MIM, by the way. It's just not worth as much as Sig charges, and obviously the stuff Sig USA is getting is not high quality.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 3:33:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 3:47:14 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:26:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By RePp:
JW is the biggest Sig basher on this forum. Go ask Kyle Defoor what he thinks of Sigs being that your name dropping.


There's a difference between being a "sig basher" and simply telling the truth.

By all means, please do ask Mr. Defoor his opinion of Sigs....the Sigs he used in the Navy and the Sigs he's seen lately. I've never brought Mr. Defoor's name into a conversation about Sigs and I'm not going to do it now, but I have actually had discussions with the man about these sorts of things face to face. Have you?

I know there are lots of guys who love their Sigs out there, but there seems to be a number of them who simply don't realize that the company they bought guns from no longer exists. Ron Cohen is running Sig right now. He made Sig profitable by doing away with unprofitable things like quality control, internal inspections. in-house manufacturing of some critical parts, etc. Now that's not simply something I pulled out of thin air...that comes directly from people who left Sig when the writing was on the wall.

As a result, the company puts out some royal crap these days...and it's not just the P250. Even their classic designs are suffering.

People may not want to hear that, but I've talked with far too many people who have experienced problems with recent manufacture Sigs to simply ignore it. Everybody from an average joe who put down $1,000.00 on a Sig P226 E2 that has been back to Sig twice for a trigger that doesn't reset (and it still isn't fixed last I heard) to armorers at FLETC who have seen a startling number of problems with even contract guns.

I'm not a "sig basher" any more than I'm a "glock basher" when I point out that the .40 caliber 3rd gen guns have issues, or a "beretta basher" when I point out that the PX4 can lock up so hard you need a mallet to disassemble it, or anything else. I'm just telling you how it is.

There's no such thing as a perfect firearm...as no mass-produced piece of machinery can hope to be completely defect free over tens/hundreds of thousands of individual units...but on the market as it stands right now some options are better than others. Sig is not...I repeat...is not the same company it was.


There you go with that common sense fact thing again.

Seriously JW...wtf?
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 8:44:28 AM EDT
Well, for me I'm very happy and pleased with my 1995 made Sig P228, eats everyting even the cheapest reloaded ammo, had 3 ouitngs with her already since acquiring it 3 weeks ago, and fired around 600rds with it with totally ZERO issues. But for sure I wont be buying the newer Sigs of today! In fact I will be getting a W.German P226 next week and a carbon steel slide P226 Navy next month
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 9:35:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
current production: HK

USP or HKP2000

if older sig, P226/8 or P220

This.

I've got an old Sig that works great, but if I were to buy a new one today, it would be an H&K.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 11:25:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 11:26:53 AM EDT by RePp]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By RePp:
JW is the biggest Sig basher on this forum. Go ask Kyle Defoor what he thinks of Sigs being that your name dropping.


There's a difference between being a "sig basher" and simply telling the truth.

By all means, please do ask Mr. Defoor his opinion of Sigs....the Sigs he used in the Navy and the Sigs he's seen lately. I've never brought Mr. Defoor's name into a conversation about Sigs and I'm not going to do it now, but I have actually had discussions with the man about these sorts of things face to face. Have you?

I know there are lots of guys who love their Sigs out there, but there seems to be a number of them who simply don't realize that the company they bought guns from no longer exists. Ron Cohen is running Sig right now. He made Sig profitable by doing away with unprofitable things like quality control, internal inspections. in-house manufacturing of some critical parts, etc. Now that's not simply something I pulled out of thin air...that comes directly from people who left Sig when the writing was on the wall.

As a result, the company puts out some royal crap these days...and it's not just the P250. Even their classic designs are suffering.

People may not want to hear that, but I've talked with far too many people who have experienced problems with recent manufacture Sigs to simply ignore it. Everybody from an average joe who put down $1,000.00 on a Sig P226 E2 that has been back to Sig twice for a trigger that doesn't reset (and it still isn't fixed last I heard) to armorers at FLETC who have seen a startling number of problems with even contract guns.

I'm not a "sig basher" any more than I'm a "glock basher" when I point out that the .40 caliber 3rd gen guns have issues, or a "beretta basher" when I point out that the PX4 can lock up so hard you need a mallet to disassemble it, or anything else. I'm just telling you how it is.

There's no such thing as a perfect firearm...as no mass-produced piece of machinery can hope to be completely defect free over tens/hundreds of thousands of individual units...but on the market as it stands right now some options are better than others. Sig is not...I repeat...is not the same company it was.


I wasnt talking about you name dropping. As for Defoors the guy just posted on his blog how great 226s are and how a class of SEALs came through with 229s and they were awesome. I swear everything you post is I have talked to people that have bad things to say about sig. Do you ever have any first hand experiance seeing a 226 or 229 fail? I have, just like I have seen about every brand of gun go down before. Has the quality gone down lately? Thats the rumor but all the new 226s and 229s I have seen look and run just like the old ones. Would be nice to see some first hand information from you besides oooo from what I was told....
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 11:53:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:51:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
The 228 was made in Germany, if I'm not mistaken (seeing that Sig USA stopped production of said model)? Sig USA and the Sig in Germany are two completely different entities, my friend. Your German Sig will more than likely function just like a Sig should.

If you had purchased a Sig USA premium-priced MIM-special, then the possibility for issues would be much higher. Somehow I doubt the operators that you mentioned use Sig USA MIM-specials...

Nothing is wrong with using MIM, by the way. It's just not worth as much as Sig charges, and obviously the stuff Sig USA is getting is not high quality.


I picked up my P228R today. The frame and slide are made in Germany and the rest of the parts are from US made P229's. The first thing that I noticed is that it's very tight, nice finish, MIM hammer and a stiff DA pull. I'm sure that it with smooth out with some rounds down range and dryfiring. Hopefully, the trigger becomes as smooth as silk like my P226R, which has 12k+ rounds through it.

HERE is a 10K round report on the P228R at pistol-training.com.

BTW... I believe that Sig USA and Germany are one entity now. I may be wrong though.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:53:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 6:53:58 PM EDT by RePp]
Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
The 228 was made in Germany, if I'm not mistaken (seeing that Sig USA stopped production of said model)? Sig USA and the Sig in Germany are two completely different entities, my friend. Your German Sig will more than likely function just like a Sig should.

If you had purchased a Sig USA premium-priced MIM-special, then the possibility for issues would be much higher. Somehow I doubt the operators that you mentioned use Sig USA MIM-specials...

Nothing is wrong with using MIM, by the way. It's just not worth as much as Sig charges, and obviously the stuff Sig USA is getting is not high quality.


I picked up my P228R today. The frame and slide are made in Germany and the rest of the parts are from US made P229's. The first thing that I noticed is that it's very tight, nice finish, MIM hammer and a stiff DA pull. I'm sure that it with smooth out with some rounds down range and dryfiring. Hopefully, the trigger becomes as smooth as silk like my P226R, which has 12k+ rounds through it.

HERE is a 10K round report on the P228R at pistol-training.com.

BTW... I believe that Sig USA and Germany are one entity now. I may be wrong though.


My 228R is the newest Sig I have with about 2500 rounds through it and the trigger still doesnt compare to my old 226. The 228 is my favorite though
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:38:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Outside of people who train shooters for a living, one person will only ever have a very limited sample size to draw from. The number of Sig problems I've seen personally is a drop in the bucket compared to what agencies have experienced with Sig pistols.

Sample size matters.


The same could be said about every brand. Numerous agencies have dumped Glocks for various issues, and some have even dumped M&P's already.

Since we're on the topic of Kyle Defoors blog, here are a few quotes from it (yeah, I'm bored). FWIW, the P226 is one of four firearms that he recommends on his site. The DD M4, G17 and Mk12 are the others.


IMO a Sig is the most accurate out of the box pistol there is. Their barrels are almost indestructible. You'll notice that there isn't a lot of emphasis on match barrels for Sigs in the aftermarket. Why? Not needed, that's why.



Our latest custom course was awesome. These guys are rock stars. I had a great time. Plus these cats had brand new custom pistols that I got to take a ride on.....

Kyle, Can you talk about the custom pistols at all? By chance are the custom pistols Springfield .45s issued to the elite of their elite?

Sig 228s with trigger and sight jobs. "elite of their elite"? - DEVGRU never used 1911s.:)!!!!



Sig makes one of the most well built, reliable handguns on the market today. It's a modern classic of style, and looks.





Link Posted: 9/13/2010 8:26:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By S-1:
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
The 228 was made in Germany, if I'm not mistaken (seeing that Sig USA stopped production of said model)? Sig USA and the Sig in Germany are two completely different entities, my friend. Your German Sig will more than likely function just like a Sig should.

If you had purchased a Sig USA premium-priced MIM-special, then the possibility for issues would be much higher. Somehow I doubt the operators that you mentioned use Sig USA MIM-specials...

Nothing is wrong with using MIM, by the way. It's just not worth as much as Sig charges, and obviously the stuff Sig USA is getting is not high quality.


I picked up my P228R today. The frame and slide are made in Germany and the rest of the parts are from US made P229's. The first thing that I noticed is that it's very tight, nice finish, MIM hammer and a stiff DA pull. I'm sure that it with smooth out with some rounds down range and dryfiring. Hopefully, the trigger becomes as smooth as silk like my P226R, which has 12k+ rounds through it.

HERE is a 10K round report on the P228R at pistol-training.com.

BTW... I believe that Sig USA and Germany are one entity now. I may be wrong though.


Are you sure all the innards are made in the USA? Sig doesn't have the 228 listed on their site, and from what I've heard, all new 228s in the country are made in Germany.
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