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Posted: 9/14/2010 12:12:25 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Outside of people who train shooters for a living, one person will only ever have a very limited sample size to draw from. The number of Sig problems I've seen personally is a drop in the bucket compared to what agencies have experienced with Sig pistols.

Sample size matters.

The same could be said about every brand. Numerous agencies have dumped Glocks for various issues, and some have even dumped M&P's already.

Since we're on the topic of Kyle Defoors blog, here are a few quotes from it (yeah, I'm bored). FWIW, the P226 is one of four firearms that he recommends on his site. The DD M4, G17 and Mk12 are the others.

IMO a Sig is the most accurate out of the box pistol there is. Their barrels are almost indestructible. You'll notice that there isn't a lot of emphasis on match barrels for Sigs in the aftermarket. Why? Not needed, that's why.

Our latest custom course was awesome. These guys are rock stars. I had a great time. Plus these cats had brand new custom pistols that I got to take a ride on.....

Kyle, Can you talk about the custom pistols at all? By chance are the custom pistols Springfield .45s issued to the elite of their elite?

Sig 228s with trigger and sight jobs. "elite of their elite"? - DEVGRU never used 1911s.:)!!!!

Sig makes one of the most well built, reliable handguns on the market today. It's a modern classic of style, and looks.

Sigs are very accurate. Never been a problem.

Custom sigs....again, nobody will argue that.

As far as the last line goes, hard to tell based on the timeframe, but I don't care if its God himself telling me that Sigs are the most well built reliable guns on the market today...that is just plain not true! Sorry.

Posted: 9/14/2010 3:49:07 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Since we're on the topic of Kyle Defoors blog, here are a few quotes from it (yeah, I'm bored). FWIW, the P226 is one of four firearms that he recommends on his site. The DD M4, G17 and Mk12 are the others.

Good...now compare that as a data point against what other knowledgeable people are saying about Sig. Kyle is a great dude and I respect the hell out of him...but he is not the only person out there talking about Sigs. You also have to consider the sources of some of those other Sigs...those high speed students he was referring to don't get their Sigs off the shelf. They get them from an arms room in Dam Neck, which means that their guns get all sorts of extra love and attention because that's what the contract mandates.

...and that's the core of the issue. Once upon a time everybody got Sig pistols that were built as good as what those guys in Dam Neck get. That is no longer the case, not even if you're being trained as a federal agent at FLETC. The USFAMS have had issues with more than just P250's. The BATFE has had problems with their previously issued Sig pistols. Etc.

I'm not just making this shit up, fellas.

Posted: 9/14/2010 4:08:56 AM EDT

[#3]

Sig is not really advancing in technology. In fact they are going backwards. Their latest offering, a copy of a 50 year old Colt design, really?

Sig right now is basically Colt in the 1980s. Lots of glitzy re-packages with cool names (Blackwater, night operator, etc, etc). It is like TALO is in charge of their design and marketing departments. The SigPro and 250 debacle reminds me of Colt's goofy DA pistols, their weaksauce CZ sourced .40cal, and their "All American" gas-powered thingy.

That being said, they do not make a bad gun. The 229 and 226 are still gold standards for 9mm pistols. But there are so many other good options. If they fit your hand, you are GTG. I, like many others have never been a very good Sig shooter. They just don't fit me. I DO like their ergonomics though. Controls on sigs are great. I wouldn't turn one down as a gift or say an ill word about them if someone I knew wanted to buy one. They may not be what they used to be, but they are heads and tails above many others still. But for myself, I've done sigs, and I'm done with them.

Hk on the other hand, has been pushing the state of the art further and further out. The trigger options alone ALMOST make up for their sorry-ass night sights.

, but the HK45 and the P30 are hands down the most well thought out sidearms out there. Price is not relevant. We are talking a $200 difference between comparable Sigs and Hk's at most. Neither are "budget" or even "value" guns, so why are we being cheap? A P30 is like $800 on average. It's not like we are looking at $3500 custom 1911's.

In the end, the verdict is:

Sig - tries too hard

Hk - doesn't try hard enough

Posted: 9/14/2010 8:48:00 AM EDT

[#4]

I think they are both junk.

Ill take the pepsi challenge with my SP-01 Shadow or G-17 versus anything sig or HK has made, ever. The only thing high end about a sig or HK is its bore axis and its price.

Posted: 9/14/2010 10:26:05 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Since we're on the topic of Kyle Defoors blog, here are a few quotes from it (yeah, I'm bored). FWIW, the P226 is one of four firearms that he recommends on his site. The DD M4, G17 and Mk12 are the others.

Good...now compare that as a data point against what other knowledgeable people are saying about Sig. Kyle is a great dude and I respect the hell out of him...but he is not the only person out there talking about Sigs. You also have to consider the sources of some of those other Sigs...those high speed students he was referring to don't get their Sigs off the shelf. They get them from an arms room in Dam Neck, which means that their guns get all sorts of extra love and attention because that's what the contract mandates.

...and that's the core of the issue. Once upon a time everybody got Sig pistols that were built as good as what those guys in Dam Neck get. That is no longer the case, not even if you're being trained as a federal agent at FLETC. The USFAMS have had issues with more than just P250's. The BATFE has had problems with their previously issued Sig pistols. Etc.

I'm not just making this shit up, fellas.

Could you post some links to other well respected people saying that Sigs are not good to go? I remember seeing Vickers posting over at light fighter a while back how Sigs QC had hit a bump. As far as all of the new plastic guns they make I could buy that.

Posted: 9/14/2010 8:24:34 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Since we're on the topic of Kyle Defoors blog, here are a few quotes from it (yeah, I'm bored). FWIW, the P226 is one of four firearms that he recommends on his site. The DD M4, G17 and Mk12 are the others.

Good...now compare that as a data point against what other knowledgeable people are saying about Sig. Kyle is a great dude and I respect the hell out of him...but he is not the only person out there talking about Sigs. You also have to consider the sources of some of those other Sigs...those high speed students he was referring to don't get their Sigs off the shelf. They get them from an arms room in Dam Neck, which means that their guns get all sorts of extra love and attention because that's what the contract mandates.

...and that's the core of the issue. Once upon a time everybody got Sig pistols that were built as good as what those guys in Dam Neck get. That is no longer the case, not even if you're being trained as a federal agent at FLETC. The USFAMS have had issues with more than just P250's. The BATFE has had problems with their previously issued Sig pistols. Etc.

I'm not just making this shit up, fellas.

Why didn't you include my first sentence in that quote? That's because it's true that many agencies have dumped every make and model that you can think of because of reliabilty and various other issues. The (fairly new) M&P has already been dumped by some too. I wouldn't look too hard into the recent ATF tests either, the weapon that was tested from Sig is a known POS and even I would take an M&P over that. Another reason why I wouldn't look too much into it is because the vast majority (99%) of Feds aren't "shooters". They couldn't care less what they carry. Hell, the Feds won't even stuff a door without the City/County LEO's with them.

Posted: 9/14/2010 8:28:30 PM EDT

[#7]

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The 228 was made in Germany, if I'm not mistaken (seeing that Sig USA stopped production of said model)? Sig USA and the Sig in Germany are two completely different entities, my friend. Your German Sig will more than likely function just like a Sig should.

If you had purchased a Sig USA premium-priced MIM-special, then the possibility for issues would be much higher. Somehow I doubt the operators that you mentioned use Sig USA MIM-specials...

Nothing is wrong with using MIM, by the way. It's just not worth as much as Sig charges, and obviously the stuff Sig USA is getting is not high quality.

I picked up my P228R today. The frame and slide are made in Germany and the rest of the parts are from US made P229's. The first thing that I noticed is that it's very tight, nice finish, MIM hammer and a stiff DA pull. I'm sure that it with smooth out with some rounds down range and dryfiring. Hopefully, the trigger becomes as smooth as silk like my P226R, which has 12k+ rounds through it.

HERE is a 10K round report on the P228R at pistol-training.com.

BTW... I believe that Sig USA and Germany are one entity now. I may be wrong though.

Are you sure all the innards are made in the USA? Sig doesn't have the 228 listed on their site, and from what I've heard, all new 228s in the country are made in Germany.

From what I have read, the frame and slide are shipped over here from Germany and then the rest is installed/assembled in Exeter.

ETA... Someone mentioned in this thread that Sig no longer test fires before they ship from the factory. My P228R must have been the exception.

Posted: 9/14/2010 11:00:04 PM EDT

[#8]

Both of these in 9mm are great choices IMHO.

The front strap on the Sig does bother me though.

Posted: 9/14/2010 11:10:33 PM EDT

[#9]

But, above all else I choose my Czech mate!

(I lack pictures of mine, but this one is very close)

Posted: 9/14/2010 11:28:10 PM EDT

[#10]

These are still hard to beat for you EDC, carbon steel slide P228s

But my HK USP Expert 40/45 can easily beat out my CZ SP01 Shadow on the 20m A zone hits!

But my fav range toy is the latter

Posted: 9/15/2010 3:22:29 AM EDT

[#11]

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Quoted:
Why is it always the same few guys that bash Sig in every thread that they can? Has Sig had some issues as of late? Probably, but so have many others. Every single brand of firearm has gone through some issues one way or the other. IMO, Sig had a hard time keeping up with QC when they recieved all of the DHS contracts. It seems to me '08-'09 were bad years for them. Hopefully they can turn that around.

JW, you seem to be pimping the M&P and HK's pretty hard lately. I know of two agencies, one large and one medium sized that recently got rid of their HK's for a couple of resons. One, they complained about HK's customer service, or the lack of it... Two, they recieved M&P's, holsters and mag carriers for practically nothing. Yes, S&W is gving the M&P's away just as Glock did many years ago to gain some ground in the LE market.

I've seen many failures with the S&W's, which has turned me off of them, even though there seems to be quite the following on the forums lately. In talking with the the guys that are now issued the M&P 40's, they seem to have more praise for the new holster that came with them (Safariland ALS). The gun gets a lot of "meh" and shoulder shrugs. Most liked their USP's more.

I have had several Sigs over the years and very rarely have had a malfunction that was not induced by me or the ammo. My most recent P226R, has around 12k through it, probably more and it has not had a malfunction that was not induced by me. I honestly can't say the same about my Glocks. In fact, I will be recieving a new production P228R tomorrow to replace my G19 that has hiccups every now and then, along with chewing the shit out of my hands every time I shoot it. I fully expect the P228R to function just as well as my other Sigs and I believe it will. If it doesn't, you guys will be the first to know.

What's so bad about M&P following the Glock model? Nothing. Who exactly says 'meh' when shooting an M&P compared to a USP? People with some kind of massive, ape-like hands, I'm guessing. And who the hell cares if you've had one Sig from recent times that has managed to survive? No one that matters.

The M&P and the HK P30 are not 'pimped' by JW. They are recommended heavily by the world-class instructors that he learns from. Larry Vickers, Todd G, and Ken Hackathorn. And I guess Hilton Yam likes the M&P. They also seem to agree that Sig quality is in the shitter. Some of the more knowledgeable folk in the shooting world believe this is because Sig is getting the cheapest parts they can obtain, and no longer produce their own parts (the reason that Sigs used to be, and HK is, expensive. now Sigs are just expensive for no reason). But you, like most internet warriors, know better than experts and industry insiders. What the hell do they know, anyway?

And let me ask you this: now that there is a greater possibility of getting a shitty Sig, what makes them worth the premium price that is charged?

You don't have to answer. People are obviously making this shit up because they decided that their old Sigs are awesome, but a bunch of people started hating Sig for no reason and wanted to slander their name, so they all made this up at the same time. Conspiring bastards.

JW is the biggest Sig basher on this forum. Go ask Kyle Defoor what he thinks of Sigs being that your name dropping. I will still pay a higher price for a sig cause mine and everyone else I know that has one has never had any problems. I guess being that the flavor of the month is the Smith we should all go trade our old pistols in for the M&P.

Dude, John Wayne shares range time with cool people, agents and shit. Second Hand Range reguritation is the best source of info, it trumps all other. He aint makin this shit up fellas,he is just passing off second hand info from cool people as if it were fact. Here is my fact, between Me, my wife, and my father, we have yet to own a Sig that didn't work. Between the three of us, that has been 14 Sigs, all dated from 2006 till now.
That means a hell of alot more to me than some dude on the internet who is passing off second hand info from sources that may or may not be biased against the guns in the first place.

Posted: 9/15/2010 4:03:54 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Could you post some links to other well respected people saying that Sigs are not good to go? I remember seeing Vickers posting over at light fighter a while back how Sigs QC had hit a bump. As far as all of the new plastic guns they make I could buy that.

Vickers did indeed say that on LF some time ago...can't find a link. Currently Pat Rogers has a thread on LF about the ATF thing where you can see some input from other people regarding issues with Sig. Some of the people behind those screen names (like Haji) aren't exactly posting from Mom's basement. You can also find posts from DocGKR on multiple boards speaking of the Sig issues...as he's personally experienced them. Also look for posts by a guy with a handle of ToddG, who used to work for Sig managing lots of LE contracts.

EDIT ––

Some links:

LAV on Sig, DocGKR is in there as well
Input from former Sig employee ToddG

There's more on LF if you search for it.

Quoted:
Why didn't you include my first sentence in that quote? That's because it's true that many agencies have dumped every make and model that you can think of because of reliabilty and various other issues.

Yes, they have...but here's the important part: When a company's issues get so profound that lots of departments who happily used X pistol for years are now looking for a replacement because of reliability issues, that's a visible sign to the consumer about what is going on.

I wouldn't look too hard into the recent ATF tests either, the weapon that was tested from Sig is a known POS and even I would take an M&P over that.

The P250 is a dog, always has been a dog, and probably always will be one...but that's not related to Sig's QC problems. It was a novel approach to a handgun that doesn't turn out to work so good in the real world. Sig tried to market that gun in Europe for years with no takers before bringing it here. Even the old Sig wasn't capable of making that thing work right. Ron Cohen's effect on Sig is a separate issue, and it's impacting the guns they build their reputation with like the P family of weapons. The P250 is a separate issue from the things that are turning departments away from weapons like the P226, P229 and P239.

Another reason why I wouldn't look too much into it is because the vast majority (99%) of Feds aren't "shooters". They couldn't care less what they carry. Hell, the Feds won't even stuff a door without the City/County LEO's with them.

The vast majority of feds may not be shooters, but generally speaking the people in charge of their firearms programs are shooters and the testing protocols they adopt to evaluate potential weapons contracts are pretty darn strenuous and provide some pretty darn useful results. It's one of the luxuries of having a federal budget.

Quoted:
ETA... Someone mentioned in this thread that Sig no longer test fires before they ship from the factory. My P228R must have been the exception.

It varies. At one time every pistol that Sig shipped was test fired for function. Now it's hit or miss. Some guns are, some aren't.

Quoted:
Dude, John Wayne shares range time with cool people, agents and shit. Second Hand Range reguritation is the best source of info, it trumps all other. He aint makin this shit up fellas,he is just passing off second hand info from cool people as if it were fact.

It is getting fucking insufferable in the handgun forums lately. It's beyond fucking pathetic when people sport epic levels of butthurt over a simple attempt to share factual information with a larger audience. You don't like what I'm saying? Well gee whiz...nobody is forcing you to read it or consider it.

Posted: 9/15/2010 4:43:04 AM EDT

[#13]

Im not butthurt, Im just calling your info exactly as I see it. You are the one with the insufferable butt hurt from having your statements and sources questioned. As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one". I definetly detect a strong air of " I rub elbows with super hi speed people on ocassion, so that means I am by default super hi speed and every thing I say is super Hi speed too!" You seem to want people to just accept what you say as fact, just because you are who you are, and who you "heard from" Don't be surprised when you get called on it.

Posted: 9/15/2010 5:32:15 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one".

I've never said "I heard this from someone."

I've been quite specific in who, exactly, I've been talking to and I've even given some references on how to see that other people are saying exactly the same thing. My "speed" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

So perhaps research more, bitch less.

Posted: 9/15/2010 11:16:22 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Im not butthurt, Im just calling your info exactly as I see it. You are the one with the insufferable butt hurt from having your statements and sources questioned. As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one". I definetly detect a strong air of " I rub elbows with super hi speed people on ocassion, so that means I am by default super hi speed and every thing I say is super Hi speed too!" You seem to want people to just accept what you say as fact, just because you are who you are, and who you "heard from" Don't be surprised when you get called on it.

that about sums it all up perfectly.

Posted: 9/15/2010 1:54:30 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Im not butthurt, Im just calling your info exactly as I see it. You are the one with the insufferable butt hurt from having your statements and sources questioned. As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one". I definetly detect a strong air of " I rub elbows with super hi speed people on ocassion, so that means I am by default super hi speed and every thing I say is super Hi speed too!" You seem to want people to just accept what you say as fact, just because you are who you are, and who you "heard from" Don't be surprised when you get called on it.

that about sums it all up perfectly.

Are the links to Light Fighter not enough for you? Is reading what they actually write not enough? I really don't know what else he can do, besides getting these world class instructors to call you on the phone and tell you what they think. I don't think that will happen. I guess you'll have to go to some of their classes and talk to them yourselves, because it seems like that's all that would convince you guys.

Posted: 9/15/2010 2:23:34 PM EDT

[#17]

Hmmm.... ToddG is stating what I have been saying throughout this thread. Sigs quality is not lower than any other handgun in it's tier bracket. Most companies outsource parts now days to save $$. Also, most manufacturers do let out lemons now and again, and I would put money on that just as many M&P's get sent back to the factory as Sigs. If your HK needs fixed, good luck.

Here are the quotes from ToddG. The thread quoted is from '09.

Last year, SIG had a pretty serious issue with takedown levers which were improperly (or at least inadequately) manufactured. The result was a number of customers, in particular LE agencies, having the "flag" loosen and begin to spin freely. While mostly causing a simple inconvenience when trying to disassemble the pistol, in some cases the "flag" turned and became jammed into the slide during the recoil cycle, completely locking up the gun.

The issue was significant enough that at one point, there were internal discussions at SIG considering a recall of tens of thousands of affected guns. Instead, it was decided to replace broken levers as they occurred. Some LE agencies, however, did receive new levers for all guns in the affected lot(s).

Ironically, some of the earliest replacement levers had a new problem as the "flag" was welded in place but not pinned. Result was that some of the flags simply fell off. This had no practical effect on the functionality of the gun, but tools were required to disassemble.

To the best of my knowledge, SIG resolved the problem many months ago and there have been no reports of problems with the takedown lever since that time.

Ten years ago, you could buy a SIG, load it at the gunshop, walk out the front door and know the gun was going to work. Period. You can't say that about the guns coming out of Exeter now.

But that doesn't mean they suck or that they're substantially more problematic than other brands. If you've got over 5,000 rounds through yours, it's pretty well proven at this point.

While I'd no longer blindly trust a NIB SIG, I'd certainly carry one after I put 1,000 trouble-free rounds through it. Could something still go wrong? Yes. But that's true of any gun on the market.

This has nothing to do with Germany vs. Exeter. Guns being manufactured in Exeter in the early part of this decade were as high quality and dependable as any SIGs ever manufactured. It has to do with decisions to outsource more parts including critical components such as the locking insert, a decision to cease test firing of non-LE guns (and at some points in time, many LE guns), etc.

Prior to the current CEO's appointment, SIG was struggling to remain solvent. The new CEO was brought in to cut costs and improve profitability. He's done exactly what the owners want, which is why he was elevated to running the entire international group.

This is the reality of the industry right now. You can either have very high QC and very high prices, or you can have "good enough" QC and competitive pricing. The only big company still following the first model is HK, and they probably don't sell a quarter as many guns as their competition.

I don't know for certain, but I'd be very surprised to learn that any company currently makes all of the parts that go into its guns. Back in the day, S&W even used to make their own pins and screws ...

The issue isn't whether a company is making the part internally, it's whether the part is being made properly, from the proper material, and QC'd at both the vendor and assembler levels. Think of it like a hamburger. You can have someone else make your hamburger, but there's a huge difference between one you'd get from McDonald's and one you'd get from Kobe.

Posted: 9/15/2010 3:33:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Im not butthurt, Im just calling your info exactly as I see it. You are the one with the insufferable butt hurt from having your statements and sources questioned. As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one". I definetly detect a strong air of " I rub elbows with super hi speed people on ocassion, so that means I am by default super hi speed and every thing I say is super Hi speed too!" You seem to want people to just accept what you say as fact, just because you are who you are, and who you "heard from" Don't be surprised when you get called on it.

that about sums it all up perfectly.

Are the links to Light Fighter not enough for you? Is reading what they actually write not enough? I really don't know what else he can do, besides getting these world class instructors to call you on the phone and tell you what they think. I don't think that will happen. I guess you'll have to go to some of their classes and talk to them yourselves, because it seems like that's all that would convince you guys.

Larry Vickers says in the post all gun companys have ups and downs thats it. Nothing JW linked really says shit. Atleast the Kyle Defoors blog comes right out makes his position known. So exactly where are all these word class instructors you talk of?

Posted: 9/15/2010 4:51:48 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Im not butthurt, Im just calling your info exactly as I see it. You are the one with the insufferable butt hurt from having your statements and sources questioned. As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one". I definetly detect a strong air of " I rub elbows with super hi speed people on ocassion, so that means I am by default super hi speed and every thing I say is super Hi speed too!" You seem to want people to just accept what you say as fact, just because you are who you are, and who you "heard from" Don't be surprised when you get called on it.

that about sums it all up perfectly.

All it sums up is that if you actually know people and talk to them, you should NEVER open your mouth, because if you do, some assclown on arfcom is going to ask for the transcript of your conversation signed and documented by those people, and if it hasn't be published in a scientific journal, it can't be fact. The fraternal order of ARFCOM disbelievers has spoken! I deem you untrue!

God forbid you witness these things yourself without pictures or a damn good MS paint interpretation. Thats like saying the world is flat.

THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM. KEY WORD DISCUSSION. MEANING SHIT COMES FROM PEOPLE IN THE FORM OF A.........DISCUSSION.

If you want documented fact, then you are in the wrong spot. If you don't like it, don't read it.

John Wayne's experiences with Sig mirror my own. I've heard more than one instructor mention that they've seen problems as well. Can I prove it? No. Do I give a fuck if you believe me? Absolutely not. Its just annoying to hear every critic come out of the woodwork when someone bitches about their pet brand. I used to be guilty of that too, then I grew up.

Posted: 9/15/2010 5:02:37 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Hmmm.... ToddG is stating what I have been saying throughout this thread.

This is getting as gay as the XD thread.

You're an M4C member, right?

M4C has a search function.

Just for giggles, here's what I've posted about Sig over the past couple of years:

While Sig's overall quality is indeed diminished from their peak and they're producing lines of weapons these days that suck (P250), the P229 is still, in my opinion, a fairly good bet as far as handguns go. Especially if they are being purchased on an LE contract of decent size. (Although I'm familiar with a number of departments that have ordered guns and received weapons that either didn't work out of the box or broke at inappropriately low round counts) Often those contracts specify higher levels of QC which means that the armed professional has a better shot at avoiding a problematic firearm than the average visitor to the gunstore. Not a guarantee, mind you...but a better shot at least.

Speaking personally, in your position I would stick with the Sig. It's your issue gun and it apparently is working well enough to keep being issued.

8/24/2010

It should be noted off the bat that for any handgun to go 50,000 rounds with no breakages and to look that good is pretty fuggin' rare. It's not something you should expect every weapon you pick up off the shelf to do.

While Sig has experienced a decline in the quality of their product over the last few years, you have to remember that they were falling from a pretty high standard to begin with. The P226 is a weapon Sig has had out there for a long time in police and military service, and odds are that most of the P226es you can find on the market will exceed the needs of most shooters. I don't know if the BW marked guns include any internal enhancements or if the differences are merely cosmetic in nature, but odds are that if you really want one it will probably be a pretty good handgun by any reasonable measure.

10/28/2009

In brief:

1. Yes, Sig's QC isn't what it once was. They hired the leadership crew from Kimber, if that tells you anything.

2. That being said, the P229 is still a pretty damn good gun and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I found a decent price on one. Will I pay the 750 bucks for a Sig I was considering when looking at the first P229s? Absolutely not. If I could find a used one in good shape for 450 or 500, however....

3. My personal opinion (worth about what you paid for it) is that if you stick to what the company has always done well, you're likely to have a good result. A basic plane-jane P229 is probably going to be just fine. A P250 or a GSR? Well....I'd skip 'em.

10/06/2008

...so much for being an unreasonable basher.

Here's another post by ToddG in the aforementioned 10/06/2008 thread:

From ToddG
There is absolutely no question that QC at SIG-Sauer in New Hampshire is less than it was five years ago. Anyone who believes otherwise hasn't been paying attention.

The company has also been outsourcing many parts to companies in the U.S., Asia, the Middle East, etc. ... parts which once came from Sauer in Germany. There have been substantial problems as new vendors are brought online to make a new (to the vendor) part. For example, there are whole production runs of SIG DAK pistols that were shipped with right grip panels modified (by hand) to allow proper clearance for out-of-spec DAK trigger bars. That works fine unless the end user (many of whom are LE agencies) needs or wants to put a new grip on the gun.

Is SIG substantially worse than its competitors in this regard? Overall, I'd say no. Where SIG has lost out, though, is demanding Cadillac prices for Pontiac quality and performance.

Some folks have mentioned the shiny bling guns, etc., that come out of Exeter now. It's a truism in the firearms industry that when a manufacturer starts making a lot of different variants of the same gun, the product line has got old and isn't selling as well. By creating "new & improved" finishes, actions, etc. you breathe life into the line for a short period while (hopefully) developing a new line. The fact that there is already a camo version of the P250 is a sign of how well the P250 is selling ...

Now notice what isn't discussed in any of the quotes: Support. Sig puts out more lemons than they used to...by a considerable margin...but their support has really dropped considerably. From this lightfighter thread:

Posted by NYeti:
At my old place, we had years of reliable service with SIG P-220's and smaller numbers of the 9mm's when we authorized 9mm as well. I have had nothing but stellar performance from the older guns Sig built their reputation on. At one point, after Sig started building the guns here and changing parts and construction, we had an order of around 25 P-220's come in in which 11 did not function out of the box, or became non-functioning within a couple of magazines. While we know that lemons and problem children will arise some times, out biggest issue was with SIG's "so what" attitude. We then went to GLocks and HK's.

Sig's rep in our area has worked his tail off the last 4 years or so trying to repair the burned bridges and Q'C issues, but I talked to him last Friday and he has been sent packing. It is also sad to watch good companies implode on themselves, especially when the implosion tends to be driven by personalities rather than product. Glock is getting a very similar rep in my area as well.

I never thought I would see the day where S&W is building good guns, and the HK factory is getting rave reviews for helping folks, and Sig and Glock are pissing everybody off.......the apocalypse is coming

Unfortunately "Nyeti" isn't the only dude with that sort of report. I've heard it from lots of other folks who haven't posted it on the internet.

It's not just that Sig is letting more crappy guns go out the door, it's that they don't support them well either. I know of several individuals who have encountered major problems with recent purchase Sig pistols only to get diddly squat as far as support. As I mentioned earlier, I know a guy from several training courses who bought a P226 E2 that never had a shot fired through it despite multiple trips back to Sig because they didn't fix the gun. Again, he's one of several individuals I know who has had that experience. Yes, S&W does ship some M&P's that don't work, but you know what? They generally do a pretty good job of fixing them. I've had just about every problem you can have with an M&P in the years I've been using them and when push comes to shove a trip back to S&W has solved the problem when it was severe enough to be a concern. That's why I still own and carry M&P's and why I have no hesitation to recommend them.

I can't say the same for Sig, as I've personally experienced their "meh" support on personally owned guns and I've seen what they've done to others. Their quality and support are currently at historic lows...which isn't surprising given the people that they've outright fired or that the management has chased off...which is why I wouldn't plunk down $700-$1,000.00 on a Sig right now, not even the classic line.

Now I recently plunked down a bunch of money for some H&K's...and you know what? My local "gunsmith" managed to crack one of the P30 slides trying to put the sights on. So what did H&K do about it? Well, they took in the old slide to see if it could be salvaged and when they determined that it couldn't, they offered to hook me up with a new slide and they're even installing sights for me for free. When I wanted to modify some springs on the gun the people who answered the phone were prompt and helpful in getting exactly what I wanted...the bastards.

Good luck with support? So far I've had great luck with H&K support.

Posted: 9/15/2010 5:28:03 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Im not butthurt, Im just calling your info exactly as I see it. You are the one with the insufferable butt hurt from having your statements and sources questioned. As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one". I definetly detect a strong air of " I rub elbows with super hi speed people on ocassion, so that means I am by default super hi speed and every thing I say is super Hi speed too!" You seem to want people to just accept what you say as fact, just because you are who you are, and who you "heard from" Don't be surprised when you get called on it.

that about sums it all up perfectly.

All it sums up is that if you actually know people and talk to them, you should NEVER open your mouth, because if you do, some assclown on arfcom is going to ask for the transcript of your conversation signed and documented by those people, and if it hasn't be published in a scientific journal, it can't be fact. The fraternal order of ARFCOM disbelievers has spoken! I deem you untrue!

God forbid you witness these things yourself without pictures or a damn good MS paint interpretation. Thats like saying the world is flat.

THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM. KEY WORD DISCUSSION. MEANING SHIT COMES FROM PEOPLE IN THE FORM OF A.........DISCUSSION.

If you want documented fact, then you are in the wrong spot. If you don't like it, don't read it.

John Wayne's experiences with Sig mirror my own. I've heard more than one instructor mention that they've seen problems as well. Can I prove it? No. Do I give a fuck if you believe me? Absolutely not. Its just annoying to hear every critic come out of the woodwork when someone bitches about their pet brand. I used to be guilty of that too, then I grew up.

Sorry if someone starts throwing out second hand info as if it was written in stone and I dont buy it. As for you posting info I dont think anyone can ever accuse you of doing that. I love the growing up part, if that was a grown up post I would love to see what they looked like before. Its been fun but I think Ive got enough info from this thread.

Posted: 9/15/2010 5:45:32 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Im not butthurt, Im just calling your info exactly as I see it. You are the one with the insufferable butt hurt from having your statements and sources questioned. As far as factual info, I havent seen any "fact" from you, just alot of "I heard this from some one". I definetly detect a strong air of " I rub elbows with super hi speed people on ocassion, so that means I am by default super hi speed and every thing I say is super Hi speed too!" You seem to want people to just accept what you say as fact, just because you are who you are, and who you "heard from" Don't be surprised when you get called on it.

that about sums it all up perfectly.

You know, I've commented on this several times in various threads on ARFCom. Ever since the GWOT started, there have been a great number of experienced operators/SOF folks getting out and making their living as firearms trainers, which I think is great. The more training you can get from very experienced people with unique skill sets the better. I'm sure the instructors make a comfortable living doing it too, which they undoubtedly deserve for what they have done for us as a nation.

The one thing that really gets under my skin though, is that a good amount of their "students" think they are the civilian equivalent to Delta when they leave a class. They then come on to the errornet and act like they're rockstars and the authority on the subject of weapons and tactics. BS. The majority don't even carry weapon for a living, and will never point a firearm at another human being in their life. It takes a lot more than a couple of days running drills and punching paper to become a "Gun Fighter". Shooting is actually a very small part of it.

I'm not specifically talking about JW here, but it's been quite rampant on the gun boards with a lot of folks that live vicariously through their new "friend/trainers." The cool by association gets old after a while. Bottom line.... Some folks fall for the BS and some can see right through it.

Now.... back to the original subject. Since some folks are posting their pron, here's a (crappy) pic of my pos Sigs.

Posted: 9/15/2010 5:46:32 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Sorry if someone starts throwing out second hand info as if it was written in stone and I dont buy it.

Well when I have dinner with Todd Saturday night or with Ken Hackathorn in a few weeks I'll try to bring a court stenographer and a judge along.

Quoted:
I'm not specifically talking about JW here,

Which is good, seeing as how I don't fit the description.

Posted: 9/15/2010 5:53:15 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sorry if someone starts throwing out second hand info as if it was written in stone and I dont buy it.

Well when I have dinner with Todd Saturday night or with Ken Hackathorn in a few weeks I'll try to bring a court stenographer and a judge along.

Quoted:
I'm not specifically talking about JW here,

Which is good, seeing as how I don't fit the description.

Cool name drop and maybe the most ironic post all in one

Posted: 9/15/2010 5:57:52 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Cool name drop and maybe the most ironic post all in one

Dude, I don't know what your major malfunction is, but it's getting somewhat annoying.

If I say Sig is sucking lately, invariably somebody comes along and insists that their guns are awesome and I don't know what I'm talking about.

If I point out other people who are saying the same thing, I'm "name dropping" and I don't know what I'm talking about.

Like I said: I ain't making this shit up. IF making believe that I am helps you sleep at night, knock yourself out. It doesn't change reality, though.

Posted: 9/15/2010 6:17:31 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cool name drop and maybe the most ironic post all in one

Dude, I don't know what your major malfunction is, but it's getting somewhat annoying.

If I say Sig is sucking lately, invariably somebody comes along and insists that their guns are awesome and I don't know what I'm talking about.
Your not anyone special so you can say all you want doesnt mean anything.
If I point out other people who are saying the same thing, I'm "name dropping" and I don't know what I'm talking about.
Or we can point out people that say Sigs are good to go (except 250s dont think anyone would argue that.
Like I said: I ain't making this shit up. IF making believe that I am helps you sleep at night, knock yourself out. It doesn't change reality, though.

Posted: 9/15/2010 7:27:49 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sorry if someone starts throwing out second hand info as if it was written in stone and I dont buy it.

Well when I have dinner with Todd Saturday night or with Ken Hackathorn in a few weeks I'll try to bring a court stenographer and a judge along.

Quoted:
I'm not specifically talking about JW here,

Which is good, seeing as how I don't fit the description.

Cool name drop and maybe the most ironic post all in one

Posted: 9/15/2010 7:36:17 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
It's not just that Sig is letting more crappy guns go out the door, it's that they don't support them well either. I know of several individuals who have encountered major problems with recent purchase Sig pistols only to get diddly squat as far as support. As I mentioned earlier, I know a guy from several training courses who bought a P226 E2 that never had a shot fired through it despite multiple trips back to Sig because they didn't fix the gun. Again, he's one of several individuals I know who has had that experience. Yes, S&W does ship some M&P's that don't work, but you know what? They generally do a pretty good job of fixing them. I've had just about every problem you can have with an M&P in the years I've been using them and when push comes to shove a trip back to S&W has solved the problem when it was severe enough to be a concern. That's why I still own and carry M&P's and why I have no hesitation to recommend them.

I can't say the same for Sig, as I've personally experienced their "meh" support on personally owned guns and I've seen what they've done to others. Their quality and support are currently at historic lows...which isn't surprising given the people that they've outright fired or that the management has chased off...which is why I wouldn't plunk down $700-$1,000.00 on a Sig right now, not even the classic line.

Now I recently plunked down a bunch of money for some H&K's...and you know what? My local "gunsmith" managed to crack one of the P30 slides trying to put the sights on. So what did H&K do about it? Well, they took in the old slide to see if it could be salvaged and when they determined that it couldn't, they offered to hook me up with a new slide and they're even installing sights for me for free. When I wanted to modify some springs on the gun the people who answered the phone were prompt and helpful in getting exactly what I wanted...the bastards.

Good luck with support? So far I've had great luck with H&K support.

Honestly, I've had 8 Classic Series Sigs over the last 9 years and I've never had to contact their customer service, not once, so I don't know what they're like to deal with. I'm sorry that you can't say the same about your HK's and M&P's.

ETA... Wait, I recommend Sigs to people because of their reliabilty and trouble free service that they have given me, but you recommend M&P's because S&W will fix the problems with them?

Posted: 9/15/2010 8:56:32 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's not just that Sig is letting more crappy guns go out the door, it's that they don't support them well either. I know of several individuals who have encountered major problems with recent purchase Sig pistols only to get diddly squat as far as support. As I mentioned earlier, I know a guy from several training courses who bought a P226 E2 that never had a shot fired through it despite multiple trips back to Sig because they didn't fix the gun. Again, he's one of several individuals I know who has had that experience. Yes, S&W does ship some M&P's that don't work, but you know what? They generally do a pretty good job of fixing them. I've had just about every problem you can have with an M&P in the years I've been using them and when push comes to shove a trip back to S&W has solved the problem when it was severe enough to be a concern. That's why I still own and carry M&P's and why I have no hesitation to recommend them.

I can't say the same for Sig, as I've personally experienced their "meh" support on personally owned guns and I've seen what they've done to others. Their quality and support are currently at historic lows...which isn't surprising given the people that they've outright fired or that the management has chased off...which is why I wouldn't plunk down $700-$1,000.00 on a Sig right now, not even the classic line.

Now I recently plunked down a bunch of money for some H&K's...and you know what? My local "gunsmith" managed to crack one of the P30 slides trying to put the sights on. So what did H&K do about it? Well, they took in the old slide to see if it could be salvaged and when they determined that it couldn't, they offered to hook me up with a new slide and they're even installing sights for me for free. When I wanted to modify some springs on the gun the people who answered the phone were prompt and helpful in getting exactly what I wanted...the bastards.

Good luck with support? So far I've had great luck with H&K support.

Honestly, I've had 8 Classic Series Sigs over the last 9 years and I've never had to contact their customer service, not once, so I don't know what they're like to deal with. I'm sorry that you can't say the same about your HK's and M&P's.

ETA... Wait, I recommend Sigs to people because of their reliabilty and trouble free service that they have given me, but you recommend M&P's because S&W will fix the problems with them?

Have any of your Sigs ever had a part failure in the last 9 years? I ask because if you shoot or train seriously, you will have parts breakages. The HK P30 that Todd tested had problems. Every mechanical device fails, when pushed hard enough. Maybe you've fared better because you've spread it out over 8 pistols, but still, you must have at least one pistol with >20k, and you most likely would need to get some replacement parts for it. With all those Sigs and all those years, you must have contacted Sig to buy parts, yes? That, my friend, would be considered customer service and support.

I just find it hard to believe that you've had 8 pistols with no problems at all. You're able to afford several Sigs, and the way you speak, you are serious about shooting, so would it be inaccurate to say that you shoot 30k or so through your Sigs each year? I really don't see them going that long, with that many rounds, with NO problems. Something is bound to come up eventually. You must have had some issues, yes?

Posted: 9/15/2010 11:16:17 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Have any of your Sigs ever had a part failure in the last 9 years? I ask because if you shoot or train seriously, you will have parts breakages. The HK P30 that Todd tested had problems. Every mechanical device fails, when pushed hard enough. Maybe you've fared better because you've spread it out over 8 pistols, but still, you must have at least one pistol with >20k, and you most likely would need to get some replacement parts for it. With all those Sigs and all those years, you must have contacted Sig to buy parts, yes? That, my friend, would be considered customer service and support.

I just find it hard to believe that you've had 8 pistols with no problems at all. You're able to afford several Sigs, and the way you speak, you are serious about shooting, so would it be inaccurate to say that you shoot 30k or so through your Sigs each year? I really don't see them going that long, with that many rounds, with NO problems. Something is bound to come up eventually. You must have had some issues, yes?

I have had three 226's, two 225's, one P220, the Mosquito and a P228R (Brand new). I don't keep "play" guns except for the 22's for my kids. All of them have some sort of reason/use to have them. The P226's I used for work. The 225's were for CCW, but were replaced by a G19 and now that will be replaced by the P228R. I sold the P220 with a really low round count because I did not need it, so I never really rung it out. I now only have the 3 that are in the picture on the previous page and the 22.

I do not shoot 30K rounds a year through my handguns. For one, guns aren't my life and I have other hobbies, responsibilities and a family to take care of. I used to shoot a lot more when ammo wasn't as exspensive, but I shoot as much as my job allows me to and between shoots I hit the range occasionally. My P226R has from what I figure at least 12k rounds through it, with no parts breakage. The springs do get changed when needed. The other Sigs have a much lower round count (3-5K)and they haven't experienced any problems. I haven't shot the P228 yet. I don't know how many rounds I shot through my previous P226's, as I don't keep a log, but they didn't have any problems either. The Mosquito is the only one that hasn't lived up to my expectations, but it is a .22 and not for "serious" use.

If someone shoots 30k rounds through their handgun in one year, they are a very serious shooter.

Posted: 9/16/2010 3:10:12 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
ETA... Wait, I recommend Sigs to people because of their reliabilty and trouble free service that they have given me, but you recommend M&P's because S&W will fix the problems with them?

IF somebody has a problem with one, then S&W usually fixes it...with is a lot more than I can say of Sig's support lately....and I ain't the only cat saying it. I've seen far fewer people with M&P's that don't work than people with Sigs that don't work lately. Since I don't know of any gun company that has a perfect batting average, the level of support they offer when they do screw up is kind of important. Murphy's law dictates that I'm going to get the gun that the new guy at the plant with an IQ of 60 says is good to go.

I put about 10,000-12,000 rounds per year downrange through handguns. Consequently, I break handguns. I'm sure someone will sieze upon that as yet another reason to malign me or impugn what I've said. I'll set the stopwatch to see how long it takes....

Posted: 9/16/2010 3:30:30 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
ETA... Wait, I recommend Sigs to people because of their reliabilty and trouble free service that they have given me, but you recommend M&P's because S&W will fix the problems with them?

IF somebody has a problem with one, then S&W usually fixes it...with is a lot more than I can say of Sig's support lately....and I ain't the only cat saying it. I've seen far fewer people with M&P's that don't work than people with Sigs that don't work lately. Since I don't know of any gun company that has a perfect batting average, the level of support they offer when they do screw up is kind of important. Murphy's law dictates that I'm going to get the gun that the new guy at the plant with an IQ of 60 says is good to go.

I put about 10,000-12,000 rounds per year downrange through handguns. Consequently, I break handguns. I'm sure someone will sieze upon that as yet another reason to malign me or impugn what I've said. I'll set the stopwatch to see how long it takes....

JW.

You say you put 10-12k rounds down range. You also say Murphy has a... law. Who is this Dr. Murphy, and how can you claim to know anything about him OR his law without documentation?

You also say you've set a stopwatch?

I will need to see proof of all of this.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig or HK? (Page 2 of 2)

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