Yes this is a tech post. It has to do with the technical aspects of SA's capitulation to anti gunners run amok.

Sent from my company email (I'm the owner):

Hello Springfield Armory,

As you're probably becoming aware of, your Facebook page is getting lit up and there are multi-page posts on several popular internet gun forums about your apparent capitulation to the Illinois government concerning SB1657 in the Illinois legislature.

If you're not in favor of this bill, you need to get in front of this ASAP. If your state firearm's association doesn't speak for you in this matter, you need to disavow this legislation and the IFMA immediately, loudly and emphatically to hope to control this damage to your brand.

I speak for a medium sized tactical gear and firearm's accessory dealer. We're making a push into the handgun accessory market and just received a shipment of firearms parts from several manufacturers through one of our distributors, including Springfield Armory accessories. At this point, I'm comfortable with taking a wait and see approach to your apparent lack of respect for the 2nd Amendment. If these allegations prove to be true however, we'll be requesting an RMA from our distributors for every single product that bears your name and will swear off Springfield products forever. I don't even care if there's a restocking fee for this. In fact, I wouldn't care if the restocking fee were 100%. I'll not have my company's shelves tarnished with another company's products that is a traitor to the 2nd Amendment.  

I'm not sure how I can make this more clear: THERE IS NO PLACE IN TODAY'S POLITICAL CLIMATE FOR FIREARM'S MANUFACTURERS WHO DON'T RESPECT THEIR CUSTOMER'S 2ND AMENDMENT CIVIL RIGHTS.

On a personal note, my immediate family owns 7 of your XDM/XDS line of handguns, along with many OEM accessories that go with these firearms. I've also been planning a purchase of at least one of your 1911's and a couple of M1A's within the next year or two. Further, I've recommended your products to countless friends and associates over the past several years. If these reports prove to be true, that support has come to an end, completely and permanently. You'll never get another dime of my family's money, and friends will be discouraged from buying your products. I'll also be sure to educate them about the reasons for this.

You still have a chance to correct this apparent lack of respect for your customer's rights. It could all be a big misunderstanding, and a large part of me hopes it is.

V/R,

Sing it loud Brother!!!

100% agreement with your sentiments on this.

I posted a review on SA Facebook, they have disabled their review section now. So unless you liked, commented or shared any of the reviews, you can't access them as of now. I guess they are starting to feel the heat, well we haven't even got started yet.... Here is what I wrote:

Travis Few nailed it. I also teach shooters each and every month, and we have THOUSANDS of students. Now do the simple math of six degrees of seperation and figure out how many people will side with us when we tell them not to buy your products, and why.

You and Rock River Arms have now gone the way of Colt, Smith & Wesson and Ruger in the 90's. I hope you realize the damage you have caused the people of Illinois, and even worse to yourself.

I will no longer endorse your products, buy them, use them or your custom shop (which you shouldn't call it that if your price list is all that you plan to offer).

I was one of your biggest supporters, now one of your wost enemies you could have. Even if you reverse your decision, you have shown your true colors. After such a stellar start to the year, you blow it and will now reap what you sew.

This is me "Defending my Legacy" yours is set in stone now. Once you are done enjoying the NRA Annual Meeting I look forward to your attempt to explain to the community why, and how you plan to fix it......

Rob Pincus and Rob Leatham, go hitch your wagons to a better 2A manufacturer. Neither of you deserve to suffer because of Springfield Armory and their Piss Poor decision making.

Everyone reading this, please pass the information on to everyone you know that purchases firearms!!

Semper Fidellis,
Out

Please explain what they are doing.

Obviously its some fucky shit, but I am not aware of it.

Want to know before i purchase an RO i was looking at.

Well said, OP.  But I'm sure you already know what their intentions were as a corporation.

Fuck those guys.



OP - here's a link to Dennis Reese's statement following TTAG's article - LINK - TTAG

I've told them what I think of their crap by not buying any of it.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/04/john-boch/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-trade-opposition-to-illinois-ffl-licensing-scheme-for-carve-out/

They sold out the dealer's and citizen's of Illinois, for their own immunity.

This is disappointing in the extreme and I would like to tell SA what I think about it. The only email on their website is for sales. Anyone have a better email address to which we can send our thoughts on this?

The sales email will get the point across. They need to be deluged from all angles so fire away.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I understand their intentions but I'm also pretty sure they didn't think about the backlash (if SA even had direct input into it.)  If they do a 180 from their apparent position, it's not too late to save face. They'd better get a move on though.

I believe they deserve the benefit of the doubt, for a time. We are all so quick to rush to judgement in 21st century America and it would be a travesty to see a company like SA ruined for it.

BUT, if the reports are true, I may be in the market for a hugely undervalued and virtually bankrupt building full of machinery and some logos (ala S&W in the 90's)

I'm so confused on what exactly this bill does.

It imposes multiplicative levels of onerous regulation, licensing, fees, waiting periods, and record keeping requirements on all who the bill designates as firearms dealers and those who work at firearms dealers in the state of Illinois.

The bill also appears to designate any individual who transfers 10 or more firearms per year as a "dealer" and imposes all those burdens on them as well. Makes one gun a month look reasonable by comparison.

The intent is plain, to force gun shops out of business, and to significantly limit individuals from buying and selling firearms.

SA and RRA's lobbying agent removed opposition to the bill in exchange for a "carve out" that grandfathered existing licensed manufacturers from the onerous requirements. Also exempted are large retailers like Wal Mart where firearms sales are a small percentage of their business.

Am I missing something?

This sounds like it's for the private individuals who buy and sell firearms. How does this affect your FFL?

WHY THIS IS A BAD BILL

This bill contains many toxic elements as well as elements that are potentially toxic but as of now undefined:
Fees to be determined by rule.  A quick guess is that 15 inspectors would be required to inspect 1500 FFL’s statewide.  At $100,000 fully loaded salary cost per inspector, the 1500 FFL’s would see a fee of $3000 each over a three-year period.  No doubt, a $3000 fee would discourage some of the 1500 FFL’s to abandon the business, raising the cost per remaining FFL, and these costs will have to be passed along to customers.
Security requirements to be determined by rule.  One size fits all security makes no sense.  Will they require a particular brand of video camera? Will they require a particular type of lock?  We don’t know, because the rule hasn’t been made.
Training requirements will be determined by rule.  They could require 60 hours of training per employee.  On the dealer’s dime.
You as a Law Abiding individual are limited to 9 “transfers” per year, but “transfer” is to be determined by law.  Is that 9 purchases? 9 Sales? 9 of either? 9 of both?  It’s to be determined by rule, and you could be conceivably limited to fewer than 1 purchase or sale per month, and the State has now established a limit on how many firearms you may purchase or sell.
Anyone who purchases a firearm will be subjected to warrantless electronic surveillance by the authorities.  Additionally, personal information of all legal gun buyers will be gathered and electronically indexed by state agencies. They could if they wanted to create Illinois’ own version of a 4473. They could require the reporting of every gun sold and to whom we sold it.
If enacted, this bill will drive many small FFL’s out of business and raise costs for larger shops all while doing nothing to address the gang violence problem in certain precincts of Cook County.

and for the record I emailed SA .....I have NOT received a response.


WHAT WE ARE DOING?

Northern Illinois Dealers are contributing financially to put more “boots on the ground” in Springfield next week.  Dealer principals will contact key representatives individually and in person as well.  This is an all-hands-on-deck effort.


WHAT YOU CAN DO

The House is out of session this week, so contact their District Office this week.
The House is in session next week, so contact their Springfield Office next week.

It gets worse.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/john-boch/editorial-what-did-springfield-armory-and-rock-river-arms-know-and-when-did-they-know-it/

SA's CEO wrote on May 2nd that the IFMA acted without SA's knowledge or input and that SA has severed all ties with IFMA, doubling down with NRA.  SPRINGFIELD ARMORY CEO DENNIS REESE STATEMENT REGARDING IFMA AND GUN DEALER LICENSING ACT (SB1657)

Yesterday (May 3rd), SA sent out an email to customers:

****
****

I got that email
It was hard to read with a straight face.
I am still not buying a XDE.  I was going to....
I will save up for something else.  From a different company!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree.  Being under the impression that SA threw everyone under the bus, I interpreted it as being pretty offensive and revisionist.

I am an early and devoted boycotter of other companies that 2A folks and AR15.com have decreed to have been forgiven (or at least not mentioned in the pejorative on this site without recourse), so if SA did what they are accused of, I have no problem turning my back on them.

But, if SA's case is really one of IFMA running off without their approval and misrepresentation in media sources, then SA is getting an un-earned bashing.  

Despite the posts and links above and to date, I have no idea what they actually did or didn't know or do when, so I will keep my eyes and ears open for the time being.  If what SA is saying is true, then they don't deserve to be thrown under the bus.  Either way, I'm going to take a bit more time to see what information out there is good and what is bad before I personally commit either way.

ETA: Based on the board membership info coming out, their defense is looking to be pretty absurd.

I facebooked them.  50 character minimum.  That means writing Traiter. 5 times.  The last period makes character 50.  I did the same for RRA.

Got lots of likes.  

Burn them down with social media.  One email is old school useless. 

It is not a tech post. 

OP, I am sure you had them at "getting lit up"

I'm so glad you care about 2A rights enough to pen a similar statement.

Civil Right?

Eagle_19er - thank you for starting this thread. When I heard about SA's and RRA's sellout a few weeks ago, I immediately took my XDS 9mm to my local gun store for consignment sale. Once it sold, I promptly bought a Glock 19 9mm.

I was fixing to buy a Saint and an M1A but that plan went out the window. Since SA is ignoring my Unsubscribe attempts,  I keep replying to SA's emails with polite, well thought-out, reasoned replies such as GFYS and Get Bent and my favorite classic - Go Take A FLying F*** At A Rolling Doughnut.

A-Aargh15

SA is a legit pro 2A company from top to bottom.  Let me cliffs notes this for you guys.  RRA and SA provide the bulk of the funding for a gun lobbying firm.  THAT firm negotiated a carve out in this bill on behalf of their largest contributors.  That's what lobbyists *do*, ALL the time, it's like their job and stuff.  SA caught wind of this and *immediately* severed ties with the lobby.  So why do some people want to bust out the torches and storm SA's FB page chanting traitor?  I have news for you guys, running a firearms manufacturing business is hard.  It's very easy to sit in front of a computer and let everyone know how you'd do a much better job when you don't have the first clue what you're talking about.  SA and every other manufacturer in this country is literally under siege.  They have to spend money lobbying to defend their business at the city, county, state and federal level.  In this case, that lobbying got sideways and did something stupid.  SA did the right thing, they make great products, their CS is the gold standard and they are pro 2A.

Spoken like a true-fanboy or someone uneducated of what's happened and the history of the convicted criminal, Springfield CEO Dennis Reese.

Please educate yourself:  RRA, SAI, and the IFMA

I just bought a new Springfield Armory TPR 1911A1 pistol.  It is perfect in every way.  I haven't had a chance yet to shoot it but I will soon.  I will continue to buy S.A. products because I believe all the hoopla is just a misunderstanding.  I certainly wouldn't want S.A. to go under because of what happened.  I believe they are sincere that they support us, the customers, and the 2nd Amendment.  I don't think the world would be a better place without Springfield.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  As I said, I haven't shot it yet but I disassembled it and inspected it.  What I meant by "perfect in every way" was that there were no tool marks inside at all.  Every part inside the slide and receiver was polished and well lubricated.  The exterior of the frame and slide had absolutely no imperfections to be seen.  After re-assembly, I dry fired it a bunch and the trigger was great.  The slide on the rails is very tight but it loads rounds without any failure to feed.  After I get to the range with it soon, I'll report back on my findings.  Safe shooting everyone!!

So... people will go to Wal-Mart to make a purchase and likely choose a SA or RR because they will likely be cheaper after skipping compliance with the regs?

Sounds like it's doomed to accomplish nothing it sets out to do, unless it's whole point to crush law abiding gun culture.

Does anyone know if SA and RRA sales have went down?

My local shops can't keep the 4" EMP's in stock. I haven't even seen 3" models. Gun Genie doesn't have any EMP's listed in stock either.  Whether sales are down or not I don't know. They extended the Gear Deal thru August so apparently they are selling guns.

I know I won't buy any more SA stuff.  This coming from a  1911 Pro owner.

It must suck when your company is best known for, "It's a pre-'17."  

FSA
FRRA

My last SA purchase was the week before the story broke. A suppressor ready XDM9 4.5" in FDE . Still like the gun and gladly took the free mags but I'll never purchase again.

I can't remember my last RRA purchase. Probably a lower/LPK in 2008 or so?

As of this morning, we are completely out of stock on all things Springfield branded. The last item we had was a 5rd XDS .45 magazine that sold this morning.

It's bittersweet but necessary to follow through with my email to them.

Well done!  There HAS to be repercussions & pain felt by RRA & SA for such low-down/back-stabbing conduct.  

I took a friend (my boss) out to shoot on Friday, and took an XDS 9 3.3, and an XDM 9 3.8 compact.  I've been shooting a lot more skeet and sporting clays in the last year, so I had (almost) forgotten how stupid fast I can shoot both guns accurately.  I wish I could say the same of my Sigs...and the Glocks and M&Ps that I have shot before.  

So, no drama here.  I'm still keeping them and advocating to anyone in the market for a striker fired pistol to check them out.

I'm going to be honest and say that both of these companies need 2nd amendment money to stay in business.  There are not nearly enough government contracts in their file cabinet to stay nearly as big as they are.  This isn't like Colt or FN.   Both have made pro 2nd amendment stances in the past and even came out and condemned this new senate bill.  Rock Rivers statement had a lot of truth in it if anyone reads it.  Its real hard to see something coming that hasn't happened before.  I personally believe they joined or as some say here made up the IFMA for good reason.  For business reasons as well as 2nd amendment.  I do think at the surface it does look distasteful of them.  But when I looked into they did take a strong stance against the bill in plenty of time to help prevent it from becoming law.  Everyone needs to be paying much more attention on who they vote for as their representatives than shutting down the manufacturers that help physically even make the 2nd amendment possible.  Hell if we weren't all so short minded we would already have Smith & Wesson  and Ruger out of business for their agreement with the Clinton ban in the 90s.  And look at them now, both sell the hell out of ARs and "high capacity" firearms.  So what we want to shut the doors at Smith, Ruger, Springfield, and Rock River?  Well that takes a ton of resources away from the NRA and other pro 2nd organizations so how do you think thatll turn out for us.  Please if we all just quit putting idiots in office that don't support or stand by our constitution we could eliminate this from even being a conversation yet a senate bill.  Like I said, I agree right off the rip it looks bad.  But since both companies made clear statements condemning this bill.  Seams to me if that agreement was made with the senate by those companies they sure as hell aren't making that same mistake and deal with the house.  People and companies can learn from mistakes.  I sure as hell hope they did in this situation.  Like I said to have a state that the senate would pass this, the house is suspected possibly to pass this, and the governor might even sign off on this is the true tragedy. Sounds like a junk state legislature.  Shutting down manufactures (who we all need to remember, are there to make money) instead of dedicating all that energy into the political side is pointless.  Take someone target shooting,  trap shooting, hunting, even just the science and discussion of ballistics.  Maybe it will get us a vote.These are what matter.  Even without Springfield and Rock River, and just to stay historically correct, Ruger, and Smith this will all continue to happen as long as we put the wrong people in office.  Just my opinion.

Edited to add that Springfield over the course of twenty years has always treated me great as a customer.  Not LE or GOV but a civilian.  Hard to convince me that with the times they have gone above and beyond in customer service that the company stance is "screw you" to me.   Cant say the same for Rock River.  Never had a functional issue to test how they treat people.  I do hate the FAL mag in the Lar-8.  But their 556 line is a hell of the rifle for the money.  Ill stick with both unless they continue or ever pull this again.

I picked my XD up one day before the shit hit the fan.

It was the second SA I bought this year, and is the 8th one I own. It also has the distinction of being my last.
2 Loaded models, 3 RO's, 1 GI, 1 XD, and 1 M1A NM.

I also have a RRA A2 carbine that will also be the last God damn RRA product I ever spend a dime on.

@Tank45, I understand your thinking on the whole issue and there's some validity to what you said.

Where I take issue is with the perceived underhandedness that SA and RRA went about this (through their wholly controlled lobbying group). A case can be made that they set themselves up to have plausible deniability to the shenanigans and only walked it back because they got caught. That may have worked in the 1990's but with the social media and other instant communication mediums of the 20-teens, it's nearly impossible to pull the wool over.

They messed up, plain and simple.

Ive learned over my 37 years on this planet to not close the door forever and while my business is currently not carrying any SA products, there may be room for it in the future. What exactly does SA need to do in order to win me back? I'm not quite sure at this point and I won't speculate about it here.

Many companies that you mentioned went through similar "treasons" against gun owners in the past and managed to navigate the storm and come out strong on the other end with what we all hope is some permanent lessons learned. A large part of me wants to believe SA & RRA can do the same but they're in for a long road.

In the meantime I'll continue to carry my XDS, my wife will carry hers and I'll plink with cheap 9mm ammo suppressed from my suppressor ready XDM9.