Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 10/15/2003 7:10:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 7:13:38 PM EDT by Lumpy196]





www.rogersprecision.com/id15.html

Pachmayr grips were standard on the MEU-SOC 1911, but Simonich Knifes Gunner Grips will be on the DET-1 Pistol:



Kimber Series I pistol
Novak Night Sights
Dawson Precision Surefire rail.

No bling, just function.
My kinda 1911
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 8:34:23 PM EDT
Cool pics, thanks Lumpy196
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 9:13:50 PM EDT
But no checkering on the frontstrap?
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 9:25:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 9:26:32 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
They wear Nomex gloves the majority of the time. Pat Rogers doesnt see a use for checkering. The grips and glove combo apparently do enough.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 5:17:50 AM EDT
what's the finish?
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 12:42:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Pat Rogers doesnt see a use for checkering.

In general, or for this gun only?



The grips and glove combo apparently do enough.
I guess that makes sense.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 12:50:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
what's the finish?



Parkerizing.


Actually Skull, there is some sound logic to it. The majority of your hold comes from the grip panels, and checkering, especially when wearing gloves can give you inconsistant draws, not allowing you to get all the way up on the grip frame.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 2:58:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 3:00:30 PM EDT by skullworks]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Actually Skull, there is some sound logic to it. The majority of your hold comes from the grip panels, and checkering, especially when wearing gloves can give you inconsistant draws, not allowing you to get all the way up on the grip frame.

Oh, I wasn't questioning the logic behind it, especially as to wearing gloves. Made perfect sense to me when you explained it, I've just never shot a checkered firearm whilst wearing gloves (other than a Glock, but the Glock checkering is not the same as 20/30lpi on a 1911) so I had never experienced the pros/cons of such a setup.

Still curious of whether or not Mr. Rogers feels the same way about all 1911's though. In my case, since I have fairly small hands checkering of the frontstrap makes a world of difference. So, I'm not disputing his logic, just wanting to know more about it so that I can learn from it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 3:04:26 PM EDT
When was this pistol submitted and/or adopted? I just realized that the attachment rail wasn't the integral rail as on the TLE/RL II. I would have expected the boys in green to want as few part as possible that can come loose. (Admittedly I don't know how that rail is stuck on there, if it's bolted, tig welded, or nuked on there.)

Also, no magchute? (Yeah I know, another part that can break, but still...)
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 3:50:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 3:51:36 PM EDT by Hoplophile]
There's a great write up by Pat Rogers in the current issue of SWAT that includes the how and why of the pistol is configured as it is.

Also, LightFighter is putting together a group buy for a copy of this pistol. The only thing it'll be missing is the Series I safety because Kimber will only produce Series II pistols for non-government purchase.

According to article in SWAT the configuration is:
- modified 1911 pistol (obviously)
- no requirement for a suppressor
- Series I pistol with no passive safety
- front and rear sereations (standard on Kimbers)
- Novak Lo-Mount rear sight
- tritium inserts in sights
- short guide rod, not the standard full length
- sights set for 25yard zero with M1911 ball ammo
- flat mainspring houseing with lanyard loop
- high beavertail safety iwth memory pad
- ambi thumb safety
- the regular Kimber mag release
- Simonich grips, although unlike the pics above I've always heard they were using brown grips, not black
- MIL-STD-171 manganese phosphate finish
- 4" at 25 yards or better with M1911 ball ammo
- trigger with no creep and a 5 pound +/- 1 pound pull
- 50,000 rounds without overhaul
- proper military markings
- special serial number range
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 4:04:05 PM EDT
Pat would be far more informed at answering the when's. There are several threads at tacticalforums.com and 1911forum.com that has participated in.

The Dawson rail is bolted on with 3 screws, no idea beyond that.

They needed the guns ASAP to issue to the unit and at the time Kimbers rail guns were not yet in full production. The standard models were deliverable with the proven Dawson rail in quantities that the Marine armorers that built the original MEU-SOC pistol, couldnt deliver.

Pat appears to be opposed to any front strap treatment from what Ive read.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 4:04:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
There's a great write up by Pat Rogers in the current issue of SWAT that includes the how and why of the pistol is configured as it is.

Thank you kindly. I've read the stuff going on over at Lightfighter regarding their version of this firearm. I must say though, I wish the TLE/RL II had the memorypad and ambi safety as standard.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 4:15:55 AM EDT
My precioussssss.



I know what grip panels are going on my new TLE now.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 2:19:26 PM EDT
The Simonich grips that are going to be delivered for the guns will be "Coyote Brown."
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:52:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 9:55:42 AM EDT by AJohnston]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Actually Skull, there is some sound logic to it. The majority of your hold comes from the grip panels, and checkering, especially when wearing gloves can give you inconsistant draws, not allowing you to get all the way up on the grip frame.



Lumpy my friend I’ve got to disagree a bit here. On a 1911 style pistol, as well as most others, most of ones grip and the strength therein is applied fore and aft on the gun. Stock panels may help contour or size or add texture to the grip of a pistol but they seldom add any significant gripping advantage. Checkering or some other front strap treatment may add some measure of gripping advantage but they are seldom needed on a gun intended for CCW.

I think the decision of no checkering on this gun (good or bad) is about as logical as the requirement for front cocking serrations. IMO, this is exactly the kind of gun that could use some sort of front strap treatment. And if done right that front strap treatment (whether it be checkering or something else) would still allow a fumbled draw to be corrected. Often times I see the way these “operator” guns are set up and the way those choices reflect on the retail marketplace makes me laugh. The Springfield TRP for example... if it‘s good enough for SWAT it‘s got to be good enough for you right. Based on the way I’ve seen some guns set up sometimes I wonder who is really influencing who.



Link Posted: 10/18/2003 3:13:07 PM EDT
I'll defer to the Marine Spec-ops units as to their logic behind it. All my guns have checkering or stippling on the front strap.

People have different techniques and holds, but Ive found for myself, the most secure grip comes from having the most leverage against both grip panels. I like checkering simply because the majority of the time, Im not wearing gloves, and sweat,rain or even blood can make a smooth gun slippery, and every bit of traction can help. At the same time, Ive also found that an overly aggressive grip surface can make for inconsistant draws and not allow your hand to completely settle into its natural position.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 3:53:46 PM EDT
Lumpy my man I think you and I actually agree quite a bit on this and my point may have been lost in my words. I was only trying to point out that, given the way the gun is set up, people should not to take the lack of a front strap treatment (or the presence of front cocking serrations for that matter) too seriously. Often times the requirements for these types of guns simply aren’t 100% useful in the civilian market but none the less get put there..... thus my reference to the Springfield TRP. I’m actually quite fond of checkering and I have quite a few checkered guns with various styles and degrees of coverage. But what I have found is that on a carry gun a serrated front strap works very well and is a whole lot more comfortable when worn against bare skin. However, if I was out there living the dangerous life of a SWAT or SF operator I would want a fairly aggressive front strap treatment that could help with the loss of feel often brought on when using gloves.

Link Posted: 10/18/2003 5:37:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 5:41:20 PM EDT by skullworks]
I agree with Lumpy that pressure against the side panels gives the majority of the control of a firearm, but in my experience ONLY when the firearm is held with both hands.

Otherwise I agree with Mr Johnston in that when holding the firearm by one hand (be it strong- or weakhanded) it is the front- and backstrap that provide the greatest control, especially if the person holding the firearm has small hands.

Think of it like this, when you grab a waterbottle you don't use your thumb and palm to hold it - you use the rest of your fingers to hold the bottle, with the palm and opposable thumb providing the backstop and (in case of the aforementioned thumb) locking it in place. But it's the fingers that hold onto the bottle (or handgun) and it is therefore where the fingers has contact with the item that the surface needs to provide the best grip, be it serrations or checkering.

But, at this point I'm probably beating a dead horse.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:16:06 AM EDT
Dam fine piece of hardware.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 7:14:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 7:48:46 AM EDT by ikor]
One of the basic tenets of serious handgun shooting is "never compromise strong hand-only control of the gun"...by that meaning you should always be able to make the gun perform ALL normal functions with the strong hand only, if necessary. Maybe not as fast, maybe not as accurately, but fairly smooth and fumble-free. While weak hand operation is a very useful skill as well, trying to make everything ambidextrous creates some problems of its' own, and is seldom as necessary in real encounters.

The lack of front strap treatment on this pistol as spec'ed may well have been due to the use of a parkerized finish, with which a checkered strap and/or mainspring housing is a rust magnet in the field...as well as to the fact that skateboard/stair-tread tape works pretty well and comes off with no problems if necessary...but I will defer to the operators who actually will use them. Certainly some sort of more permanent front strap treatment could easily be added if desired.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:29:26 PM EDT
You guys are missing the point here. This pistol is not intended to be the ultimate be-all, end-all of CQB weapons. It is an interim solution. You don't get a weapon delivered quickly and in large quantities by requesting a bunch of time-intensive custom work like a checkered front strap. I'm sure they wanted the front-strap, and as I recall the 'real' MEU (SOC) pistol has this, but it's better to get 'good enough' before you ship out than to have 'even better' waiting for you when, and if, you get back.

To quote from the article in SWAT:

To solve the problem a Special Operations Forces Project Officer determined that an urgent requirement existed for an Interim CQB Pistol. It had to be readily available, the manufacturer had to be able to deliver it in a short time frame and the quality of the gun had to be sufficiently rugged to stand up to a high round count under ideal conditions. The pistol was not meant to replace the MEU (SOC). Instead, it is intended to be an interim gun, used until such time as the improved MEU (SOC) comes on line. However, considering the inability of the Marine Corps to provide sufficient MEU (SOC) pistols to the Force Reconnaisance Community, it had to be a gun that the shooters in the Det trusted sufficently to take to war.

Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:36:34 PM EDT
It should be noted that the Marine units using these pistols have never had them checkered or stippled. The Pachmayrs were considered enough, and even then, some of the operators cut the front strap covering portion off to slim the grip.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:45:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
It should be noted that the Marine units using these pistols have never had them checkered or stippled. The Pachmayrs were considered enough, and even then, some of the operators cut the front strap covering portion off to slim the grip.

So they used the wrap-around style of Pachmayr? Man, that's the sole reason I could never be one of'em - I hate wrap-arounds with finger grooves!
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:59:45 AM EDT
Non-finger groove Pachmayrs



Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:19:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Non-finger groove Pachmayrs


usgi1911.tripod.com/meusoc/MEUSOCPL.jpg

Actually don't like those either. I have small girlish hands so anything that increases the circumference of a 1911 is a bad thing for me.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:43:01 PM EDT
agreed....and I have big hands.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:05:30 PM EDT
Girlie men.

Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:23:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.


Them are fighting words my friend, now if I could only get a good hold on this here .45...
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:31:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.



Knuckle dragger
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:49:24 PM EDT
Finger groove grips are too round which makes it harder to index the pistol in your hand.

They made a good decision switching from the Pach's to the Simonich grips, IMO.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 2:29:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skullworks:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.


Them are fighting words my friend, now if I could only get a good hold on this here .45...



Link Posted: 10/22/2003 2:30:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.



Knuckle dragger



glock owner.


Link Posted: 10/22/2003 5:23:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.



Knuckle dragger



glock owner.





NOT NO MORE BEEEEOTCH
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 4:21:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.



Knuckle dragger



glock owner.





NOT NO MORE BEEEEOTCH



Bout time.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 4:31:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.

Knuckle dragger

glock owner.



NOT NO MORE BEEEEOTCH

Bout time.

Haha! You didn't get me!!!
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 4:41:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skullworks:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Girlie men.

Knuckle dragger

glock owner.



NOT NO MORE BEEEEOTCH

Bout time.

Haha! You didn't get me!!!



Yet........
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:55:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 3:16:02 PM EDT by Pat_Rogers]
To answer a few questions....

We received the Kimbers in June03. We are very happy with them.

While this is an Interim CQB Pistol, the Marine Corps is having great difficulty acquiring a commercial MEU(SOC). Therefore, the Kimber may well be a go to war gun, and there is no problem with that. It is an excellent gun, and many feel it is a much better pistol then the MEU(SOC)- i agree.

The MEU(SOC) never had any front strap checkering. The Pachmayr Wrap around grips covered the front strap. I routinely cut that off to reduce circumference.

I have small hands. The Shooters are required to wear gloves. This makes perfect sense in the environment in which they operate.

The Shooters do not perceive a need for that checkering.
I don't have any use for checkering. Unlike many, i have shot for real when my hands were wet, and in one case, bloody. If there was a problem, i cannot recall.
I spend a lot of time passing out moleskin, bandages, and duct tape to students at Gunsite who have checkering on their pistols.
You cannot acquire the skills necessary to win a fight if your paw is raw and bleeding.
I sometimes think that checkering is a convenient way to transfer money to a 'smith, and little else.
This is my opinion, and is based on having carried a gun for more then one day- your mileage may of course vary.

The front slide serrations make perfect sense on a pistol with a white light mounted. The press check is more easily performed that way.
I realize that there are many who are offended by this breach of purity, but it gives the shooter an option.

The Strider Grips should be inbound shortly. I have been using two sets since last November (see Dec SWAT for a pic of the brown grips on my pistol). They are very good.
As to skateboard tape and such. Nothing can be added that cannot be decontaminated- wood grip panels and such. I can't remember if the skateboard tape is or is not, but once again, this hasn't been an issue.

An extended mag well?? Not needed or wanted. We shot some SA Professional Models with it. Most Shooters were not concerned with an extended mag well- it is of little or no importance to them for what they do.

We went for the Dawson rail due to the fact that Kimber had no extended history with the intregal rail. We had experience with the Dawson, and it was favorable.
Read the article, it explains most of this.

Anything else?
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:00:26 AM EDT
Hi, Pat!

Where's the article available?

TIA
QS
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:44:06 AM EDT
December 03 SWAT magazine.

Hope this helps..
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 7:14:15 AM EDT
Nice gun as is, front strap not checkered.
Before the final shooting grip, the gun should be able to nestle into place, unhindered.
IMO, that's the transition from holster to firing when you have a 360 degree hold, the contour of the gun and the side panels should keep it where you want it.
The grooves on my Gold Cup's front strap seem useless, for example, but harmless.
But the grooves in the trigger are a real PITA and the edges are too sharp for extended shooting sessions.
I can't tell from the picture how those are, grooved or smooth.
When one size must fit all compromises are made.
Why not offer a round mainspring housing, short trigger or choice of wraparound grips or not to the the individual user? These parts can be in the spare parts bin and added anytime.
I need to STFU, I know.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 1:18:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anothergene:
These parts can be in the spare parts bin and added anytime.

Contrary to popular belief, a 1911 trigger is not a drop-in item.
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 10:46:56 AM EDT
Slick!
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 8:37:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2003 8:39:36 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Its always nice when Pat Rogers stops by. He certianly knows the DET-1 better than anybody. I loved his article in "SWAT" magazine.
Top Top